Mom not planning on teaching highschool level math, science, etc--how to respond?

[Gooblink]

Although I don't agree with her approach, I appreciate she has the freedom to choose for her family.

 

I have a formerly Amish friend who was only educated through the eighth grade. She's now working on her GED and doing very well in her subjects. What she was lacking in textbook knowledge she makes up for in work ethic, integrity and industriousness.

 

Now, hopefully your friend is raising kids in stength of character. If that piece is missing, I worry for them.

[Starr]

If you know this family well would it be inappropriate to have a conversation with the daughter? You could give her some science books to read.

[Ester Maria]

I have a formerly Amish friend who was only educated through the eighth grade. She's now working on her GED and doing very well in her subjects. What she was lacking in textbook knowledge she makes up for in work ethic, integrity and industriousness.

What is a 14 y.o. child who doesn't go on with her education expected to do in life, especially in the early years after finishing the eighth grade? :confused:

What if, hypothetically, you have a situation in which there is a child who wants to continue to study? How is that handled within the community?

 

Sorry for the off-topic, just curious. :)

[wapiti]

IMO, this is not a homeschooling choice, or even an unschooling choice - it's a non-schooling choice. It sounds like she's essentially having the daughter drop out of school. What, if anything, is she teaching (besides giving up when things get a bit harder)? And how can she issue a high school diploma when there's been no math or science?

 

If teaching the content is too difficult for the mother, there must be on-line courses that would do the trick.

[Julie in CA]

...about whether this family has the right, legally or morally, to do what they're planning.

 

If it were me, I don't think I'd debate or discuss, but I would probably do the following:

 

Get a hold of some of these and pass them along (they're extremely cheap when bought used)

http://www.amazon.com/Biology-Self-Teaching-Steven-Daniel-Garber/dp/0471223301/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274199511&sr=8-10

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Algebra-Self-Teaching-Guide-2nd/dp/0471530123/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274199511&sr=8-16

http://www.amazon.com/Economics-Self-Teaching-Guide-Wiley-Guides/dp/0471317527/ref=sr_1_30?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274199615&sr=8-30

 

Offer to teach the subjects that mom might be struggling with, or at least offer to help the student with pacing her independent learning.

 

Investigate options so far as great tutoring programs that may exist in your area, then pass along the information in a friendly, helpful way.

 

If that mom lived in California, I would spend a split-second sympathizing with how difficult it can be to cover those subjects, then I'd explain that the community college can be a great venue to get those bases covered--obviously that will vary according to the policy in your state.

[LisaKinVA]

While my husband and I are both highly educated and value rigorous education for our children, I find it arrogant and presumptuous on the part of people who believe they have the right to dictate the choices of someone else for whom they are not responsible. For me, the core issue is not whether math, science, languages etc.. should be taught at thus and so level, in which case people could reasonably argue that many homeschools, public schools, etc.. perform an inferior job (to say the least). The central issue here is whether someone has or should have the right to determine someone's personal choices for her individual family. For me, the answer is no. People who assume this superior posture may find themselves similarly situated down the road with someone else who has yet a higher standard.

 

Here's my issue... parents are making a conscious decision take away future choices and opportunities from their child.

 

Guide and direct to the best of our ability? Certainly. Intentionally hamstring and hold back because you don't "feel" like it's necessary, or important even when you *know* what your children may want to do as adults? Drives me nuts.

 

My older brother (who has his MBA), and his college-educated wife (both went to LeTourneau in TX) have decided that their children (boys and girls) don't need "advanced math." Now, if one is talking about Trig and Calculus, and the child isn't interested in certain fields, or certain colleges...okay. But they mean anything over Algebra 1. I do have a problem with it. They are also contemplating "kicking out" the oldest child (17, and a junior, taking Algebra 1), because he "questions his father's authority." The actual example of what they are speaking about was not a loud, argumentative defiance, or things like breaking rules, sneaking off, promiscuity, or anything else. He was asking why he "wasn't allowed to go to college."

 

Their children are average to bright...and it really chaps me that my brother, who is making 6 figures, and owns two houses, is actively preventing his children from having the very job he holds. I informed my dh that IF my older brother kicks their son out, we're taking him in -- even if I have to drive to their house myself to do it. ;)

[FaithManor]

Wapiti! Thanks for succinctly saying what I was thinking.

 

You are right - she has chosen Non-schooling in certain core subjects and that is not a homeschooling option in the state of Michigan until the age of 16 unless you are Amish or Mennonite, in which case, it may be covered under religious exemption. That said, according to HSLDA, if you choose to violate the state law under religious exemption then you must prove that you are a part of a religious order that actively preaches against or at least shows a strong historicity in the community of being against the regulation. So, if you are Amish or Mennonite, its pretty obvious with the distinct clothing and lifestyle. I would be up a creek, so to speak, as someone from a regular old Protestant church, to claim a religious exemption for not teaching high school level material to a child under 16 years of age unless the child did not have the ability to do such material due to learning disabilities, medical needs, etc. Unless this mother is a part of a religious community with a documented history of religious belief against high school education, she is on the wrong side of the law.

 

Faith

[Orthodox6]

While I essentially agree with the "how" part, I'm not sure I would claim the same for the "what" part. I actually seriously believe that children should be protected, amongst other things, from their own parents' ideas of what's best for them. .

 

Red flag (the bolded part). Although I see great wisdom in much of what you write, Ester Maria, this sentence points to an extraordinarily "slippery slope". This exact "reasoning" has, at times, led to state interference with a parent's right to raise a child in a specific religion. This is a "tar baby" topic supreme ! In cases, such as the polygamous sect in Texas, which was all over the news sources a couple of years ago, parents definitely deserved to have their children freed from the sickness termed "religion" forced upon the children. At the same time, however, religious freedom remains fundamental in the United States. What I consider the truth is going to be challenged by many other people. Yet if anybody ever tried some legal maneuver against my right to raise my children as Orthodox Christians, pacifism be hanged, and I would don a Valkyrian helmet and sling my weapons with vigour and determination.

 

I almost would wager that you carefully wrote your post(s) without any thought of the obvious connection to religious freedom ! :)

[texasmama]

I don't agree that every child should be forced to do advanced math and science. Yes, I think everyone should ideally learn enough to be a competent citizen and run their own household (assuming they are not too disabled to expect to do this), but seriously, who uses college preparation level math in real life? If one of my children wants to learn a trade that does not require calculus (and most don't) then I'm happy for them to not study it. As long as they know enough to do things like balance their budget, pay their taxes and other things that would be covered in an applied math course, they are functionally numerate.

 

Just my personal experience here...I have an undergrad degree in social work and a graduate degree in clinical social work. I knew that was my "calling" at the age of 19. In spite of the fact that no math or science is required in order to practice in my field (as a therapist), I was required to take a year of chemistry, a year of biology and precalculus to graduate with my undergraduate degree. I was required to take statistics to obtain my graduate degree. Many college degrees are considered to be "liberal arts" type degrees, in which many subjects are required. Not having any advanced math in high school would have really hampered my goals. I could have done okay without advanced science because my year of college biology was mostly memorization of texts. But chemistry, statistics and precalculus all required higher levels of math in order to pass these courses. I took algebra 1 and 2, geometry and precalculus in high school, which gave me the foundation to make it through those courses, though I struggled even so.

 

I really think it does a disservice not to teach homeschooled kids upper level math. I do use algebra in my every day life at times. I still can't balance the checkbook, though.:tongue_smilie:

[6packofun]

Did she maybe just mean that SHE isn't going to be teaching those higher level courses? Maybe she will use materials like many of us do that will do the teaching?

 

If not, I probably would have asked if she plans on giving her dd a high school diploma because there are credit requirements for graduation that do include math and science--even if she doesn't go to college! Then, I'd probably say something that would maybe plant a seed rather than a statement of judgment (the latter would be reallllly easy, btw LOL), like: "I'm so glad that I don't have to worry about my teens getting a well-rounded education just because *I* can't remember algebra! *laugh* There are so many wonderful programs out there to take over the teaching and give me a break! And I love seeing them take responsibility for their own education, learning on their own." (Maybe I'd name a few programs if she seemed interested. :) )

Edited May 18, 2010 by 6packofun
...,

[Jean in Newcastle]

Look at the tag. . . I was wondering why this thread seemed so familiar (I have a long memory). . .

[Ester Maria]

Red flag (the bolded part). Although I see great wisdom in much of what you write, Ester Maria, this sentence points to an extraordinarily "slippery slope". This exact "reasoning" has, at times, led to state interference with a parent's right to raise a child in a specific religion. This is a "tar baby" topic supreme ! In cases, such as the polygamous sect in Texas, which was all over the news sources a couple of years ago, parents definitely deserved to have their children freed from the sickness termed "religion" forced upon the children. At the same time, however, religious freedom remains fundamental in the United States. What I consider the truth is going to be challenged by many other people. Yet if anybody ever tried some legal maneuver against my right to raise my children as Orthodox Christians, pacifism be hanged, and I would don a Valkyrian helmet and sling my weapons with vigour and determination.

 

I almost would wager that you carefully wrote your post(s) without any thought of the obvious connection to religious freedom ! :)

A good point, I admit. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

But not what I had in mind. ;) I tend to consider things such as religious instruction or classical languages to be "extras" - that is, a perfectly normal and legitimate part of one's education, as long as the "basics" have been covered. I wrote a post about why I consider it necessary to, at the very least, provide your children with the "standard package" that the other school children are getting at the equivalent level of education. I have no issues with additions to that standard package - but I do have issues with taking away from that minimum, because it's a ground for manipulation and withdrawing important scientific and cultural information from your children.

 

So let's say that you want to teach your children Koine and Byzantine Greek, Old Church Slavonic, that you want to read lives of saints with them, teach them the theological background of Eastern Orthodoxy, etc. (I'm obviously speaking at random, as I'm not sure what constitutes religious studies with regards to your religion. :)) You can do it and I don't think any person in their right state of mind will have anything against it, you can dedicate as much time as you find necessary for it, organize your school day around it, educate your children in accordance with your lifestyle - but not at the expense of the "standard package". You have to squeeze in maths, high school science requirements, history, whatever else is the standard package in your area or where you're registered - otherwise you're not doing "high school" and you're hindering your child academically.

 

It's like... Classics are very important to me, but I cannot teach Greek instead of English. I can teach it in addition to English - and I don't have to. Get my point?

That's what I'm against, parents taking away from the "standard package" and thus limiting their children - I DO consider that to be a form of educational neglect and I think children should be protected from not receiving the "basic package" because of their parents' decision that "they won't need it". With the "extras" as suited with regards to the family's convictions or lifestyle, no problems at all. Just do the basics too.

[Gratia271]

Here's my issue... parents are making a conscious decision take away future choices and opportunities from their child.

 

Guide and direct to the best of our ability? Certainly. Intentionally hamstring and hold back because you don't "feel" like it's necessary, or important even when you *know* what your children may want to do as adults? Drives me nuts.

 

My older brother (who has his MBA), and his college-educated wife (both went to LeTourneau in TX) have decided that their children (boys and girls) don't need "advanced math." Now, if one is talking about Trig and Calculus, and the child isn't interested in certain fields, or certain colleges...okay. But they mean anything over Algebra 1. I do have a problem with it. They are also contemplating "kicking out" the oldest child (17, and a junior, taking Algebra 1), because he "questions his father's authority." The actual example of what they are speaking about was not a loud, argumentative defiance, or things like breaking rules, sneaking off, promiscuity, or anything else. He was asking why he "wasn't allowed to go to college."

 

Their children are average to bright...and it really chaps me that my brother, who is making 6 figures, and owns two houses, is actively preventing his children from having the very job he holds. I informed my dh that IF my older brother kicks their son out, we're taking him in -- even if I have to drive to their house myself to do it. ;)

 

I certainly don't endorse any such behavior. I abandoned a lucrative career for the purpose of providing my children with an education that I don't believe is available elsewhere. I am not inexperienced with this issue in my own personal situation. Without too much detail (on the web), I empathize with you and the position you are in with people who mean so much to you. It is heart wrenching to contemplate the future for people we love whose futures have been marginalized by others. I don't think that only parents do this, though. Schools do it regularly with students for various reasons. There are many students who graduate from "real schools" barely literate and unable to do more than basic math. So, I am not sure these types of parents are uniquely evil.

 

Just because I don't believe I have the right to interpose myself in someone's choices does not mean I approve in any way. Personally, I think individuals should have enough respect for themselves and for their children to sacrifice whatever (titles, second homes, money) is requisite to providing their children with the best possible opportunities and challenges. Like you, I find it contemptible that people behave this way with their children. As OP have stated, it is a blight on homeschooling. It seems reasonable to pull these people aside and apprise them of their responsibility, but I don't believe that will make a significant difference to people who apparently are indifferent to the whole matter. All of this to say... I agree with what you said. For me, it comes down to individual responsibility. Ultimately, children grow up and have to accept and deal with their choices as well as those foisted upon them by others. I don't envy their plight and consistently do what I can to help those I love in similar situations.

[chadzwife]

I didn't teach any math past Geometry and the only reason I taught that was becuz it's applied logic. Just as sentence diagramming is good for the brain, so is algebra (and geom!). Not becuz they need it for any particular reason in real life--UNLESS their chosen occupation requires it. Then fine, they can study it--with someone else or on their own. I did thru algII and trig in high school. What a waste of my time--I literally tried to drop it in about Jan and was arm-twisted into completing the yr. I don't want to try teaching that either lol.

I firmly believe if my kids want to study a higher math, they can, whenever they want. They were given the basic tools of being able to THINK and some grammar-knowledge (if you will) -of algebra (& the geom)- to build on.

We did high school level biology and origins/creationism. I didn't want to do chemistry as it seemed awful so my neighbor did it and I taught ancient lit to her kids. I had to take chem in college as I hadn't in high school, so I spent a semester doing it to be able to take physiology. They reviewed any of the chem I needed in physio! ARGH lol

My son was being steered by me, onto the engineering track -- given his bent and talent. He chose not to go this way but if he had, he would have had to take up thru at least precalc with me and physics. Well, not WITH me--I ain't doing physics either. But if we hadn't had had a way for him to take these things as a teen, he could have taken them later. I still think he will eventually go back to school :o

Also, for girls who have ANY inclination they may be moms someday and HS and maybe HS kids who need higher math and science--requiring at least algebra and biology seem just the kind thing to do. Like being well-read and competent writers makes HSling so much easier on mom.

My little girls now--same deal when they're teens. Cept now after a billion yrs studying the human body/nutrition I find myself leaning twds more human body study required just as an Owner's Manual line of thinking! I doubt we'll do physics and our chem will be a chem for the health sciences kind of study probably. Astronomy would be nice too at this level tho...

Who knows?

I have a college-educated friend who chose not to require any math or science past 8th grade (and consumer math). In fact, discouraged interest in this. (only one had any interest) She has kids in college, studying college independently online, employed lucratively without any college (in lifetime careers) and others still coming up to teen yrs. Her kids are skilled in numerous areas unlike 99% of govt/private school grads. They are in high demand by good employers (not just fast food/walmart lol) and volunteer groups.

I agree with the underlying thinking of WTM regarding high school sci and math, but I guess I don't play it out very well when it comes down to it. This is reason number 119 why I HS :)

[RanchGirl]

While my husband and I are both highly educated and value rigorous education for our children, I find it arrogant and presumptuous on the part of people who believe they have the right to dictate the choices of someone else for whom they are not responsible. For me, the core issue is not whether math, science, languages etc.. should be taught at thus and so level, in which case people could reasonably argue that many homeschools, public schools, etc.. perform an inferior job (to say the least). The central issue here is whether someone has or should have the right to determine someone's personal choices for her individual family. For me, the answer is no. People who assume this superior posture may find themselves similarly situated down the road with someone else who has yet a higher standard.

 

I agree. 100%.

 

I noticed that the original question (posted way back when) was how to "respond". Which implies that the mother in question has asked for the OP's opinion or advice. AFAIK, she hasn't. So why would the OP or anyone else on this board presume that she (a) has all the facts and (b) knows better than this mother how to raise her children?

[Carol in Cal.]

I am reminded of the parable of the Talents. We don't have the right to waste our talents and capabilities--God gave them to us to use for Him; that's what they are for. Similarly, as parents, we are obligated to enable our children to use their talents to the best of their abilities, in the same way that we are obligated to enable them to develop in other ways.