teaching respect of authority

[3Rivers]

I am at a loss with one of our children. He is 8 years old and he honestly doesn't seem to understand that there is a difference between a child and an adult....a way to speak to a peer vs. speaking to an adult.....he has actually expressed frustration that he can't be in charge.

 

I can deal with the specific behaviors as they happen, but I worry that he just doesn't GET IT, which often results in inappropriate or disrespectful behavior toward other adults.

 

I'm not talking about aggressive verbal expression, or even purposeful disrespect. It just seems to be the way he communicates. Here is an example:

 

When his karate instructor gives a command, the class answers "Yes Sir." My son answers with something like: "Do it AGAIN?" Or when asked a question, he'll answer with a quip instead of just answering the question. He doesn't seem to have the typical "fear" of authority. He acts as though adults are his peers.

 

Today I told him he needed to stop correcting his brother and his response was "Then why don't you stop correcting me?"

I am utterly appalled at what comes out of his mouth, and the attitude that comes with it, and he is only 8. I can't imagine him at 16.

 

I consider myself fairly strict. Authoritative, but not authoritarian. I do not tolerate his smart mouth. The other two children know better. He is the one who must always test the limit and then push on it once more. HE told ME one day: "Mom, the only thing that works on me is the wooden spoon." :eek:

 

On a typical day, if his response or attitude is unacceptable he will be given a chance to re-phrase it and respond appropriately. If he persists, then it's time out in the corner. If that still is not getting through to him, then he is sent to his room for a longer time with a privilege taken away, and then last resort is a spanking. Usually I don't have to resort to that.

 

He often interprets discipline as me being "mad" at him, without connection to HIS actions that resulted in consequences. He just. doesn't. get it. He does not understand the need to respect authority.

 

On the flip side is a very sensitive and loving boy who feels things very deeply. He is NOT aggressive in his behavior. In fact, I am amazed that although he is more than twice the size of his younger brother, he has never once tried to hurt him or even intimidate him. He's usually the one who weeps if someone is sad or hurting.

 

So his smart mouth is a real puzzle and a deep concern to me.

 

I'm wondering if he is picking things up from tv, although I'm careful what they watch. Maybe I'm not careful enough and I'm not hearing the attitude that is coming through with these cartoons like Jimmy Neutron and others. I don't let him watch any tv with characters that are teens for this reason, but maybe......:confused:

 

Anybody relate? Any ideas? Perspectives?

[Pamela H in Texas]

He does sound interesting :)

 

It sounds like you are doing things right, really, for the most part. I do have a couple ideas.

 

First, sometimes it just takes a lot more time to get points through to a kid. We tend to think it should work time 1, 2, or 3 when really it takes ALL kids some time to "get it" even if they behave sooner. Others just don't comply til they get it (and we have grey hair :) ).

 

Second, some kids really do get to the point of needing punishment to control them. This ends up going one way or another. Many kids will eventually "get it" enough to avoid the punishment and then later "get it" the rest of the way. Many others, however, will push to the bigger (maybe not the biggest) punishment regularly though. The question is which is your son, because in real (adult) life, the punishment is pretty severe and can have really bad lasting consequences.

 

I'm hoping I'm making some sense here. Basically, either way, it takes time and it may be better to aim for him responding to the discipline rather than the punishment. He seems to think he needs punishment. I think I'd prove him wrong.

 

You might try Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure. It gets kids thinking and reasoning and problem solving. Part of that is to recognize what other people are thinking and feeling. It also connects real life positive and negative consequences to choices we make. He's a little old for it, but he can "help" you teach your 5yo with the role playing and such. Then in a year or two, you can follow up with the preteen version :)

 

ETA: The idea with the above suggestions is to have him start respecting others (and particularly authority) RATHER THAN respecting the punishment that will follow if he doesn't. A LOT of kids respect "the spoon" or even a time out or certain decibel level mom uses, but they don't really have respect of people down. There is a difference between respectfulness and respect. Some people refuse to show respectfulness when they don't really respect a person. In your son's case, that could be that he's not willing to behave respectfully to you when it's really only the spoon he has a reverence for.

 

hTHs a little...

Edited July 29, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Peela]

Lol, I love him already :)

I don't really have any suggestions other than he will probably be a leader, that lack of fear of authority in this day and age of corrupt authorities has a definite good side. I don't teach my kids to respect authorities for their own sake- just to be polite and respectful to everyone.

I suggest you never try and quell his spirit, or change the way he sees the world- it is uniquely him and it makes him who he is. I do understand your frustration though and I don't have any suggestions. My husband is like your son, through and through, and it got him into a LOT of trouble when he was a kid, but he has had an amazing life and he now helps young men, some of whom have authority issues! He is not a follower, he is a leader. Its not that I think you shouldnt discipline your son- I just wanted to say I think you should really appreciate him for who he is with those particular characteristics, as well, because they have a wonderful side when directed positively.

Hopefully others can help you with the discipline side of things :)

[IsabelC]

I second Pamela's suggestions.

 

And like Peela said, don't forget to see the positive in your child! This lack of automatic yessir, nosir response isn't just embarrassing and inappropriate in karate. It's also the character trait that means he will never go off in a car with a stranger or allow someone in authority to sexually abuse him and then not tell anyone. It's the trait that will make him less gullible when somebody tries to lure him into a dangerous cult or cheat him out of his money. It will make him less susceptible if he is ever under pressure to take drugs or get drunk. So it's not something to frighten out of him, it's just something that he needs to learn how to reign in so he can show more appropriate behavior.

 

The other idea you might consider is enlisting others to help you. For example, if he wants to go to karate class, he has to agree to speak and act according to those expectations. So you could have a private chat with the instructor and ask him to reinforce this instead of letting it slip. (When I did karate years ago, the sensei was very chatty and friendly during breaks but would put his foot down immediately if someone acted up during training, and you behaved because it was your choice to do karate.)

Edited July 29, 2009 by Hotdrink

[kalanamak]

I know there are those who cringe when the sometimes-lost parent of one chimes in, but I like Raising A Thinking Child for this. It takes time, but it worked very well on getting kiddo to consider how what he said/did made other's feel. I think there is a version for older kids, as well.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Thinking-Child-Everyday-Conflicts/dp/0671534637

[schsmom]

Do you HS your kids? I only ask because I did not see a curriculum listed or a reference to hs, maybe I missed it. My kids acted out when they saw other kids or adults do it. They are like sponges.

Also nothing but strict discipline works for me. The wooden spoon works. Now I do not take it out all of the time but when I do they know exactly why I did. Some people may be angry when they read this, but I am a christian that follows the bible on this and correction IS biblical. But with that said you cannot just hit your kids with the spoon and think ok thats it. My kids are told why it is happening that they are loved and then we have a real discussion about it then and at night during our prayer. Now it did take a while to get to the point I am at but now they are lucky if they get the spoon 1 month and I see real change in them. A good book is Sheparding a Childs Heart by Tedd Tripp. I don't recommend the dvds just get the book. Even if you do not choose to use "the spoon" one thing is for sure consistency is key and follow through on your "threat" no matter what it is! Best of luck.

[Wyndie]

I think I have your child's clone over here. He's 9 and I seriously could have written your post word for word. I have no idea how to help him understand he can't treat everyone like his equal. I do see the positives that were pointed out about not being a yes man. I love that aspect and will try to see his behavior in a more positive way, but still... I'd love for him to stop treating adults like his equal. I will get that Amazon book b/c I think if he could just "get" that his words are not appropriate, he would stop with the mouth.

[Guest janainaz]

Lol, I love him already :)

I don't really have any suggestions other than he will probably be a leader, that lack of fear of authority in this day and age of corrupt authorities has a definite good side. I don't teach my kids to respect authorities for their own sake- just to be polite and respectful to everyone.

I suggest you never try and quell his spirit, or change the way he sees the world- it is uniquely him and it makes him who he is. I do understand your frustration though and I don't have any suggestions. My husband is like your son, through and through, and it got him into a LOT of trouble when he was a kid, but he has had an amazing life and he now helps young men, some of whom have authority issues! He is not a follower, he is a leader. Its not that I think you shouldnt discipline your son- I just wanted to say I think you should really appreciate him for who he is with those particular characteristics, as well, because they have a wonderful side when directed positively.

Hopefully others can help you with the discipline side of things :)

 

Totally agree with what she said.....

[Susan in KY]

He often interprets discipline as me being "mad" at him, without connection to HIS actions that resulted in consequences. He just. doesn't. get it. He does not understand the need to respect authority.

 

On the flip side is a very sensitive and loving boy who feels things very deeply.

 

So his smart mouth is a real puzzle and a deep concern to me.

 

 

 

I haven't read the other responses, but I would say that this warrants a "date." Take him out for lunch so he has you all to himself. Have a fun time, maybe do something fun together. Then when you are sitting over your meal or a coke, tell him you are very concerned about something that needs to be corrected in his life so that he can have good success. Then give him specific examples and how his responses should look. Encourage him in the areas he is strong in, and show him this area of weakness as it relates to his future.

 

Once with my ds, I said to him, "When a powerful bird like an eagle catches prey like a weasel, the prey can actually kill the bird if it's able to turn and bite the bird in the heart. You've got a biting weasel in your hands and it could do serious damage to you if you don't get rid of it."

 

Then I told him because I love him so much and want him to have good success, I am telling him this now so he can do what he needs to do to avoid being brought down by this issue in the future.

 

It went over very well for us, and it sounds like with a sensitive boy like yours, it may work for you, too.

 

All the best,

Susan

[kmacnchs]

Lol, I love him already :)

I don't really have any suggestions other than he will probably be a leader, that lack of fear of authority in this day and age of corrupt authorities has a definite good side. I don't teach my kids to respect authorities for their own sake- just to be polite and respectful to everyone.

I suggest you never try and quell his spirit, or change the way he sees the world- it is uniquely him and it makes him who he is. I do understand your frustration though and I don't have any suggestions. My husband is like your son, through and through, and it got him into a LOT of trouble when he was a kid, but he has had an amazing life and he now helps young men, some of whom have authority issues! He is not a follower, he is a leader. Its not that I think you shouldnt discipline your son- I just wanted to say I think you should really appreciate him for who he is with those particular characteristics, as well, because they have a wonderful side when directed positively.

Hopefully others can help you with the discipline side of things :)

 

I COMPLETELY disagree with this...I think teaching respect for authority is a must! I was that child and still have trouble with that. My parents just encouraged me to stand my ground and never back down...well, you know what that got me? Teachers, and later bosses, and now a husband who did NOT like my argumentativeness. If it is an ethical issue, you can teach your children to never go against what they know is right...in a respectful manner.

 

I don't have any suggestions...I just know to tell you that you would be doing him a disservice by letting it continue, or worse, encouraging it.

 

I am sort of dealing with the same things...my older dd would NEVER talk back to me (or would get spanked for doing so) but she does it to other adults all the time. I was told there is a fine line between teaching your children to respect *you* and teaching them to respect *adults*. So now instead of "you don't talk to mama that way", we are saying "you don't talk to ANYONE that way"...we'll see :)

[Danestress]

Thinking for yourself and not being a "yes man" are good qualities. Most characteristics have both a good and a negative (or potentially negative and potentially good) side.

 

I would be worried that this is not just about understanding the roles of children vs. adult but about a pride issue with always having to be right and never being able to take correction.

 

I have a son who was like this. He had a lot of good qualities. But I feel like I didn't do a good job managing this part of his character. When he was in middle school and high school, he started dropping out of sports because he couldn't handle being coached. He just lacked the wisdom to see that the coach knew more than him and that he had to do what the coach told him if he wanted to be good at sports. He'd rather not play than have to hear constructive criticism and change in response. He never learned to play a musical instrument as well has he would have liked because he couldn't stand that relationship in which someone knew more than him and tried to teach him.

 

It's really been a problem for him. He's smart, fun, kind and he's doing well in college. So it's not a disaster. But overall I would say it's been a negative in his life. It's definitely a pride issue. At six, it looked like having a backbone and being smart, precocious, and strong willed, but at 21, it seems sort of weak in a way. He definitely succeeds in some areas, but if you can't listen to someone with humility, accept correction, admit your own lack of understanding or knowledge, and just be "under" someone, it's hard to learn anything really well. He has done well in his jobs, but not as well as he would if he had a more humble spirit. I REALLY worry about him getting married because I think he will be very resistant to the idea that his wife might know a few things he doesn't and that when they argue, she might have a good point.

 

Incidentally my son, like yours, is fun, smart, very loving and sensitive. He also always felt like any correction was someone being "mad" at him.

 

I'm not sure what to tell you. I see the problem but I don't know what I should have done differently. They only thing I will say is that I wish I had seen the larger pride/character issue rather than seeing it as a "does he respect authority" issue. When you think of it as authority, you are making it partly about you and other adults. Really, for his own good and his own success and happiness, I wish I had pursued this harder and prayed for and worked on his pride issues apart from any discipline/authority thing.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Danestress

[Garga]

I love this post. Your son is exactly like my son. I tense up when an adult decides to speak with my son, because, just like you said, he'll give a quip instead of a proper answer or he'll argue with the adult.

 

Oh--and that last one about pride nailed it on the head. I've been thinking about this a lot, and I also have started to realize it's a pride issue. My son, also, can't seem to take correction without getting indignant about it.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Garga

[teamturner]

What does his martial arts instructor do when he speaks disrespectfully toward him/her? Our MA instructor would never allow that and discipline would be imposed to correct that behavior in class.

 

At home, have you ever tried write-offs? I've used scripture verses that relate to respect, parental authority, etc. Or just sentences like, "I will not be disrespectful to my parents." If you're not a Christian, I'm sure there are other proverbs, words of wisdom, maxims, etc that you could use. For us as Christians, I believe that calling on the authority of God to teach my dc the way to live fits w/how we are instructing them. I think Donna Young has George Washington's rules for boys that would help instruct in proper behavior on her website to be used for copywork. Noah Webster has a list of moral virtues also.

 

I make my dc write it 5 times at the first offense, and it goes up by 5's after each offense. I usually reserve this for attitude offenses, quarelling w/siblings that involve hitting/meaness. I think that writing helps put it in there heads and remember it the next time they consider the wrong action. Just another idea.

[kmacnchs]

Thinking for yourself and not being a "yes man" are good qualities. Most characteristics have both a good and a negative (or potentially negative and potentially good) side.

 

I would be worried that this is not just about understanding the roles of children vs. adult but about a pride issue with always having to be right and never being able to take correction.

 

I have a son who was like this. He had a lot of good qualities. But I feel like I didn't do a good job managing this part of his character. When he was in middle school and high school, he started dropping out of sports because he couldn't handle being coached. He just lacked the wisdom to see that the coach knew more than him and that he had to do what the coach told him if he wanted to be good at sports. He'd rather not play than have to hear constructive criticism and change in response. He never learned to play an musical instrument as well has he would have liked because he couldn't stand that relationship in which someone knew more than him and tried to teach him.

 

It's really been a problem for him. He's smart, fun, kind and he's doing well in college. So it's not a disaster. But overall I would say it's been a negative in his life. It's definitely a pride issue. At six, it looked like having a backbone and being smart, precocious, and strong willed, but at 21, it seems sort of weak in a way. He definitely succeeds in some areas, but if you can't listen to someone with humility, accept correction, admit your own lack of understanding or knowledge, and just be "under" someone, it's hard to learn anything really well. He has done well in his jobs, but not as well as he would if he had a more humble spirit. I REALLY worry about him getting married because I think he will be very resistant to the idea that his wife might know a few things he doesn't and that when they argue, she might have a good point.

 

Incidentally my son, like yours, is fun, smart, very loving and sensitive. He also always felt like any correct was someone being "mad" at him.

 

I'm not sure what to tell you. I see the problem but I don't know what I should have done different. They only thing I will say is that I wish I had seen the larger pride/character issue rather than seeing it as a "does he respect authority" issue. When you think of it as authority, you are making it partly about you and other adults. Really, for his own good and his own success and happiness, I wish I had pursued this harder and prayed for and worked on his pride issues apart from any discipline/authority thing.

 

WOW! Thank you for the insight! That is EXACTLY what my problem was...and is probably my daughter's issue!:iagree:

[lauranc]

I have a 14.5 yr old son who has always been a spirited leader. He does not follow the crowd, he wants to know the "why" behind a lot of things other kids take for granted. He questions the answers and sometimes he questions the questions too. Whew... it's been an exhausting ride.

 

We have taught all of our children to be respectful of others. We do not teach blind obedience to authority though.

 

When my son was your son's age, we offered "do-overs" and lots of explanations. I think it's o.k. to explain to your son that in certain situations (like his martial arts class) he needs to conform or he's being disruptive. He can always ask for help or better explanation after the class.

 

I would encourage his curiosity and spirit-- and work with him (at times when you're not feeling frustrated about his behavior) on how to speak with others honestly but not disrespectfully. You don't want to crush his spirit, but on the other hand.. you don't want to release it wildly to the world either. It takes a lot of time and patience, and I believe it's a long and worthwhile journey.

 

At about the time my son was your son's age, I found Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Kurcinka--- it was an enormous help to me.

 

HTH,

Laura

[Lovedtodeath]

Just a sum up for myself... lol. Raising your Spirited Child, Raising a Thinking Child, work on humility, and give do-overs. Is that what I need to remember?

[Haiku]

On a typical day, if his response or attitude is unacceptable he will be given a chance to re-phrase it and respond appropriately. If he persists, then it's time out in the corner. If that still is not getting through to him, then he is sent to his room for a longer time with a privilege taken away, and then last resort is a spanking. Usually I don't have to resort to that.

 

 

It sounds like he has lots of chances to get it wrong before there is a consequence that actually bothers him. He knows that what he is doing is wrong. Stop giving him chances to get away with it.

 

Were it me, I would sit my son down, tell him that I will no longer accept his inappropriate responses, and that from now on, the first time he answers me rudely, he will brush his teeth, put on his pajamas, and go to bed. Even if it is 9 a.m.

 

Tara

[MamaSheep]

I have a son who sees adults as peers too. Always has, ever since he was a wee little nipper just learning to sit up and crawl. (Incidentally one flip side to this for him is unrealistic expectations. He subconsciously expects himself to be able to do things that adults are able to do, even when he is physically too small or not yet developed enough to actually do it. He can be way too hard on himself.) I have found that I get much better results when I work WITH this tendency than when I try to work against it. In other words, I receive respect from him when I offer respect to him. And I've also observed that with this particular child (unlike his sister) "punishments" have almost no effect at all except to make him feel angry and picked on. He simply doesn't make the connection. What did make a difference was respect.

 

I think respect is a two-way street, even when it comes to adult/child relationships. If you don't respect them, they will not respect you. They may obey you for some other reason, such as fear, or apathy, or a desire to just not make waves, but that is not the same thing as respect.

 

One thing that helped with my son was a frank discussion, during a calm moment, about the concept of authority. I explained that authority is not about saying one person is "better" than another, it's just about maintaining order. When everyone knows who is in charge of what, things move smoothly. When everyone tries to be in charge of everything themselves, there is a lot of chaos and arguing and hurt feelings and nothing ever gets done. So adults decide among themselves, one way or another, who is going to be in charge of a particular thing. Usually, the person who is chosen to be in charge is someone who has more experience or education with whatever the thing is. That makes a lot of sense, because if you put someone in charge who doesn't know much about it, a lot of mistakes are going to be made before they figure out a good way of doing things. Someone who has done it before, or who has special training in the thing, will be able to avoid those mistakes and to teach others a good way to operate. Putting a person in charge does not make that person "better" than the people who are "below" that person in the organizational structure, it just makes them in charge. The "followers" also have skills and talents, and a good "leader" will watch for those and help his "followers" to develop them and use them for the good of the group. And the followers will look for ways to use their talents and skills and smarts to support and build up the person in charge, because that way the whole organization is stronger, as a group. A "follower" who is seen as supportive of their leaders, and who is clearly working toward the good of the group, is often promoted to a leadership position themselves. A person who is seen to be undermining the organization, including any leaders within the organization, attacking other followers, or otherwise causing problems for the group, will usually remain a follower or else be removed from the group entirely for the good of the group--whether that group is a country, a community, a business, an educational institution, a church, or even a family. In a family it might mean a divorce or asking a child to leave as soon as they reach adulthood so as not to damage other kids in the family. In a community it might mean jail time to keep you separate from the cooperative citizens. In a business you'll get fired. But it's never a good thing.

 

In a family, the parents are the ones in charge. That isn't just because they're bigger and stronger than the kids and can beat them into submission. (We could beat them, but we can't make them submit or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Some children will submit in the face of violence--even if it's just a wooden spoon--and some will take a stand and die on the last hill rather than give up their God-given spirit.) Parents are also not in charge due to having more intrinsic value than children, nor does God think adults are better than children (God is no respecter of persons, we are all equal in His eyes). No, parents are in charge within a family because we have lived on this earth for a considerably longer period of time. We know how life works (at least more than kids do--it's a pretty big and confusing proposition, all things considered) and we can act as guides to those who are newly arrived here. It makes logical sense to put the adults in charge of the children. That way children will learn much more quickly than if they were just left to figure everything out on their own, and will be better prepared for life when they reach adulthood themselves. Additionally, children will be protected from dangers of which they are unaware because they haven't been around enough to encounter them before, because adults HAVE been around long enough and know how to stay safe and keep other people that way too.

 

Children should absolutely use their brains and ask certain kinds of questions about what any adult is asking them to do--as has been pointed out, we don't want them mindlessly acquiescing to predators. But children should also keep in mind the fact that adults have much more knowledge, education, and experience than children do, and that most adults honestly want children to learn and grow and succeed and become honest-to-goodness adult peers themselves as soon as possible. We don't want them to stay children forever. In fact, that is WHY we ask them to do the things we do. Even if they can't see it, due to inexperience, the things we ask them to do generally have one of two purposes: 1) to help the group (family, class, community) to function smoothly so that everyone can have everything they need and some of what they want, and 2) to help the child to gain new knowledge and skills that will be helpful in their own adult life.

 

I explained to my son that when we treat others with respect, others are much more likely to be respectful of us. Furthermore, behavior that is more adult-like will result in more adult level privileges and responsibilities, whereas child-like behavior will result in a child level of privileges and responsibilities. I told him that I was completely willing to treat him whatever age he was behaving. If he was being responsible and doing what needed doing without even being asked, like an adult, and looking out for kids who were smaller than him, and speaking to people in charge in supportive and cooperative ways (whether that's me, or his scout leaders, or Sunday School teacher, or whoever), and acting in a way that forwarded the goals of the group he was in, then he would be able to do things like have a later bedtime and have full access to the electronic amusements that are important to him, full kitchen priveleges for snacks, etc. BECAUSE I could trust that he would use these privileges in a responsible, adult manner. On the other hand, if he were behaving like a small child, having fits of temper, mouthing off to adults, causing problems in the organizational structure, not cooperating, etc., then I would be forced to treat him like a small child. He would have an early bedtime, like small children need, and I would have to regulate his usage of electronics, treats, and other privileges because small children do not have the self-control yet to be responsible for all those things and it's my job as a parent to make sure they are used properly and in balance.

 

In other words, the amount of respect and cooperation he receives from me is directly proportional to the amount of respect and cooperation he is able to exhibit. If he is able to operate at an adult level, and be supportive and respectful of authority figures within the organizational structure--AS AN ADULT WOULD--then I will be happy to treat him as an adult. If he acts like a little kid, that's how I have to treat him, whether he thinks he's equal to an adult or not, because his own behavior shows he is not. And most of the time I expect that his behavior will really fall somewhere in between, since after all he is only twelve years old. I'll give him the level of freedom and repsonsibility that he can handle, and as his mom, I've got his back on the parts he's not old enough for yet. But he has to trust me to know which is which because I'm 38 years old, and he's only 12. I've been 12 before, but he's never been 38.

 

That approach has worked MUCH better than the power struggles we used to have when he was little. I wish I'd done it sooner.

[Coffeetime]

OH, I'm sorry... were you just describing MY 8 year old boy or yours?? :tongue_smilie:

 

No great advice... just letting you know that we are dealing with the EXACT same behavior from our oldest boy, who also happens to be 8. We seem to discipline in the same way as well, except that I usually go to a spanking after the first chance to rephrase. ;) We also don't let him come back to be with the family until he's ready to apologize for his behavior and ask for forgiveness. He always does that very well.

 

And it's not tv... because we don't watch any tv! :confused:

 

Quite honestly.. I think it's a phase that he WILL grow out of as long as I am consistent. I know for a fact that my son DOES understand the need for respect of authority, because not only have I talked myself blue in the face about the importance of respect, but also he does not talk to his dad the same way or show his attitude to him. Nor does he behave disrespectfully to any other adult. Just me.

 

:grouphug: Here's hoping it gets better for both of us! I always tell myself that God has a amazing plan for that child- he's strong and persistent and someday- if I can do my part in training him- he will use that aspect of his personality for good! :)

[Haiku]

Trying to talk things out with my little mastermind has never worked. The more I give legitimacy to her desire to be in command, the worse it gets. For us, the thing that has worked best has been to not tolerate it and enforce the consequences. Maybe as my daughter gets older, talking these things out with her will work more. But at the age she is, seven, the wordier I am, the less she pays attention. She does, however, pay attention to my actions.

 

Tara

Edited July 29, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[Wyndie]

Thinking for yourself and not being a "yes man" are good qualities. Most characteristics have both a good and a negative (or potentially negative and potentially good) side.

 

I would be worried that this is not just about understanding the roles of children vs. adult but about a pride issue with always having to be right and never being able to take correction.

 

I have a son who was like this. He had a lot of good qualities. But I feel like I didn't do a good job managing this part of his character. When he was in middle school and high school, he started dropping out of sports because he couldn't handle being coached. He just lacked the wisdom to see that the coach knew more than him and that he had to do what the coach told him if he wanted to be good at sports. He'd rather not play than have to hear constructive criticism and change in response. He never learned to play a musical instrument as well has he would have liked because he couldn't stand that relationship in which someone knew more than him and tried to teach him.

 

It's really been a problem for him. He's smart, fun, kind and he's doing well in college. So it's not a disaster. But overall I would say it's been a negative in his life. It's definitely a pride issue. At six, it looked like having a backbone and being smart, precocious, and strong willed, but at 21, it seems sort of weak in a way. He definitely succeeds in some areas, but if you can't listen to someone with humility, accept correction, admit your own lack of understanding or knowledge, and just be "under" someone, it's hard to learn anything really well. He has done well in his jobs, but not as well as he would if he had a more humble spirit. I REALLY worry about him getting married because I think he will be very resistant to the idea that his wife might know a few things he doesn't and that when they argue, she might have a good point.

 

Incidentally my son, like yours, is fun, smart, very loving and sensitive. He also always felt like any correction was someone being "mad" at him.

 

I'm not sure what to tell you. I see the problem but I don't know what I should have done different. They only thing I will say is that I wish I had seen the larger pride/character issue rather than seeing it as a "does he respect authority" issue. When you think of it as authority, you are making it partly about you and other adults. Really, for his own good and his own success and happiness, I wish I had pursued this harder and prayed for and worked on his pride issues apart from any discipline/authority thing.

 

Ah pride. I think you've hit the nail on the head for us. It makes sense to me that my son would struggle with this as he has been around the longest to see the adults in the house struggle (or just give in!) with it as well.

 

How can I save a thread? I know it will show up again if someone else posts, but I want to save it so I can refer back even without other comments...

[3Rivers]

Wow! So many helpful and insightful responses.

 

Update today....

 

 

• I'm discovering that this seems to be a common phase for many boys ages 7-8. Could it be part of a development "task" as they are beginning the journey toward becoming young men? Hmm
  

 

 

• PRIDE-- yes, I think that hits one of the biggest nails right on the head.
  

 

 

• I will continue to pray, read, and seek understanding about the underlying issues that are driving the behavior. In the meantime, however, I need to be tougher in exactly what I expect at that precise moment instead of stringing it out. To make it simpler I am expecting a simple "Yes, Ma'am" as a response followed by the action I expect in EVERY situation. I think he is picking up on my wishy-washiness. It's my job, then, to be sure that what I'm asking of him is reasonable.
  

 

 

• I'm also realizing that the concept of "respect" is abstract, especially to an 8 year old boy still in the concrete stage of cognitive development. Better to require a specific behavior.
  

 

 

• I think part of the behavior problem has been due to simple habit forming that I have allowed to persist.
  

 

 

• This may be an issue that we will deal with for quite a while. My first step will be to break the bad habits. From the perspective of a horse, if you control the mouth you control the whole horse. I want him to learn to control his mouth first, whether he understands "why" or not.
  

 

 

• I think the "why" of understanding will come as he gets older. I think there is a difference between an 8 year old and say a 14 or 15 year old who needs to increase his skills in thinking for himself. I think an 8 year old first needs to respond appropriately without questioning. There will be time for questioning later, when he is actually able to logically discuss the ramifications of what I'm asking of him, and hopefully by then to understand the meaning of respect. I've seen the truth of this in times where we have had to try to have a "logical" discussion with a child who possess no such logic! :tongue_smilie: What a disaster. True, I don't want him to blindly follow every adult, or every "authority" in every situation, but at his age now and with us, his parents and other adults we also entrust to teach him, I do believe that he needs to simply trust and obey.
  

 

 

• I have ALSO realized that I forget that he is 8. I sometimes expect him to be his older sister, if that makes sense. Today, in fact, I noticed that I expected him to do something that, in retrospect is difficult for him at this stage.
  

 

 

• As an effort to break the habit, I decided today that he would not be allowed to spend his money (he has enjoyed working, saving and spending this summer) until he has established this one habit of answering "Yes, Ma'am....Yes, Sir..." and then doing what he is asked. It takes 21 days to establish a habit, or so they say, so we'll see.
  

 

Today went MUCH better.

[3Rivers]

I'll add one more thing to this that I noticed just today.

You know the maxim: "You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar"? (or something like that)

I think that's true with disciplining kids as well.

I've experienced a shift today, in that, since I have a no-tolerance approach to what I expect of him in terms of his response, I find that I am giving instruction in a much more gentle way. I think I have been bracing myself for his attitudes so much that it has affected the very spirit with which I approach him at all, which just adds fuel to the fire. By instructing him with all manner of sweetness, I'm not setting him up for defensiveness quite so much and we avoid the whole downward spiral we've fallen into over the past several months.

 

Ah, this parenting thing -- not for wimps, for sure. I think I am learning more than any of my children on any given day.