Let's say teaching credentials were required of homeschooling parents...

[Renee in NC]

Kelli, I imagine in TN that doesn't seem too "off" as homeschooling already "kind-of" works that way. Here in NC it would be a totally different approach! I can imagine the uproar over the loss of freedom would be HUGE!

 

My first knee-jerk reaction was that if I wanted someone else to have that much control over my dc's education, then I'd go ahead and send them to school, KWIM?

 

I am not saying that it doesn't have merit, though. I just cringe at the thought of having to answer to someone else's idea of what is "on time" or "acceptable."

[Rebecca in GA]

I'd abide by the law not by becoming credentialed but by enrolling in a virtual academy, provided that's an option under your hypothetical law. But I'm one of those weirdo law-abiding folks anyway. (I have my children vaccinated and mostly drive the speed limit as well. :o)

[Mom2boys]

 

I have a masters degree in elementary education, and was certified to teach 1-8th grade in Ohio. I really don't feel my teaching degree has helped me be a better homeschool teacher. We really were taught more about assessment and classroom management than anything else. My BA in International Studies has been much more beneficial to me, in terms of homeschooling.

 

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, I imagine in TN that doesn't seem too "off" as homeschooling already "kind-of" works that way. Here in NC it would be a totally different approach! I can imagine the uproar over the loss of freedom would be HUGE!

 

My first knee-jerk reaction was that if I wanted someone else to have that much control over my dc's education, then I'd go ahead and send them to school, KWIM?

 

I am not saying that it doesn't have merit, though. I just cringe at the thought of having to answer to someone else's idea of what is "on time" or "acceptable."

 

I understand what you are saying. In TN there would be an uproar if all the umbrella schools started requiring anything more than grades and attendance sent in twice per year. I am probably very alone in my thoughts about this.

[Jenny in Atl]

After seeing this quote, I'm not so sure that credentials for parenting at too far off.

 

This is from an article about the recent CA case in the San Francisco Chronicle. This quote can be found at the end.

 

"Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety."

 

(Leslie Heimov, executive director of the Children's Law Center of Los Angeles)

 

I know this family had abuse issues but I can see many who feel homeschooling itself as abuse. :mad:

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL

[Tammyla]

I always follow the laws. That said, would this hypothetical teaching certificate proclaim me a valid teacher to any and all grades, and in any teaching situation? ie....Grade School, Middle School, High School in any state? Would I be certified to anyone's child at home? You would have to work long and hard to get two states to agree on any requirements. jmho...

 

fwiw, I've lived in four different states while homeschooling and each one had very, very different requirements for home schooling as well as public schooling. Example on the number of days required for attendance.

 

How did I miss this thread for so long. No time to read every follow up. I apologize in advance if I've repeated or missed something.

[PrairieAir]

But I'm one of those weirdo law-abiding folks anyway. (I have my children vaccinated and mostly drive the speed limit as well. :o)

 

Vaccinations are not required by law (at least not everywhere) or at least there is a legal exemption. I'm not sure exactly what the laws are, but I know I am not breaking them by not having my children vaccinated. I do speed with full knowledge that I am breaking a law in doing so:)

[Kelli in TN]

I do speed with full knowledge that I am breaking a law in doing so:)

 

Then you do not want to get behind me. I even obey the really slow speed limits while traffic backs up behind me. I just keep muttering, "get off my tail dude, 30mph is the law not a suggestion.":)

[WTMindy]

WA homeschoolers only need 45 college credits or to take a homeschool cert. course. Its not 6 weeks. In fact, it varies depending on the institution or person giving it. I just looked up one course that was 2 days long.

 

My understanding is that these classes are pretty minimal in terms of time comittment. I know a woman who teaches one and she is a wonderful mom who homeschooled all her kids all the way through, so it isn't someone pumping propaganda. (Maybe some of them are, but not this one!) It is very easy to homeschool in WA. I don't think these requirements are unreasonable.

[WTMindy]

and I know he would want to go underground if that were the case (in fact, he'd probably love the opportunity to "stick-it-to-the-man",so to speak). Because I have my teaching credential I know how absolutely incredibly worthless it is in determining a good teacher!! But, I would probably be more inclined than dh to try and work with the law.

 

The whole thing makes me appreciate a bit more the fight the early homeschoolers went through and the benefits we have reaped from their work.

[Rebecca in GA]

Vaccinations are not required by law (at least not everywhere) or at least there is a legal exemption. I'm not sure exactly what the laws are, but I know I am not breaking them by not having my children vaccinated. I do speed with full knowledge that I am breaking a law in doing so:)

 

Yes, I know there are legal exemptions to vaccinations. That was a half-hearted swat at homeschool stereotypes. My bad.

[PinkInTheBlue]

I would like to say that I would neither agree to the law and go back to school to get my credentials nor would I "go underground". My hope is that I'd fight and fight and fight for my rights of freedom. I hope I would be in the news and be a real pain by standing up and screaming NO. :) I'm tired of so many of the rights we continue to loose in America while I'm suppose to be singing "...land of the free..." and quoting "...with liberty and justice for all." and both becoming less and less true every day.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I wouldn't do it. People with "credentials" don't necessarily make great teachers, especially for *my* dc. If I thought that was important, they would definitely be in school.

 

How would they regulate whether or not the child is learning and the teacher is teaching? How can they justify such a requirement when there is such chaos in the public schools in parts of the country with credentialed teachers? This would make for such a massive government agency to oversee it all, and if there's one thing I'm not in favor of, it's more government! Look at the agencies we have now that are so inefficient it's ridiculous. Could you imagine?:eek:

[Storm Bay]

only that you posess the appropriate knowledge.

 

:D Or that you are good at cramming! I can't cram, but for those I knew that did, it was in and out again, according to some of them.

[Jill- OK]

That by the time I went to school, got a Bachelor's degree, and then did the extra work to get certified...my older children would have graduated, lol. A couple of others would be smack in the middle of junior high years, when I would *least* like them to be attending school.

 

My other beef? The amount of *money* needed to do such a thing (send me to college) would probably be impossible to come up with, and I can't understand asking people to financially wreck their lives for the privilege of teaching their own children.

 

If I lived in a state where something like that happened, and couldn't easily move, I'd try to creatively submit. :)

[Tutor]

The point of going "underground" is to be beneath the radar, so to speak. By its very nature, this is a choice which puts those who make it in a position of potential danger. They are Breaking The Law, be it by conscience or by conviction or by whatever reasoning. The authorities aren't particularly concerned with the reasons, are they?

 

To admit to such in a public forum, and particularly in a place where there are those who are well-known to be big fans of the State, with all it's "good government", specifically of governmental oversight for those of us who are simply too stupid to govern ourselves (ie. those of us who disagree on a number of basic principles), wouldn't be wise, would it?

 

It's not quite the same as discussing convictions and philosophies in a safe environment, where privacy is a given and one wouldn't have to worry about one's words (in print, no less) being later brought against them in a most disturbing manner.

 

Civil disobedience isn't new. It's also not particularly something one simply comes right out and says, "Look, Ma! I'm doing it! Right now! Look at me!" Not, at least in my mind, when there is a very good possibility that someone of an opposing mindset may find themselves inclined to make a phone call and stir up trouble for the fun of it (or for conviction's sake - I do believe some of the most terrifying oppressors in the history of man were so dangerous because they truly believed in what they were doing and that it was "for the good of ______", and not for maliciousness' sake.) I am NOT, most definitely NOT, insinuating that you would do so, Colleen. But we've seen trolls here already. We've seen the virtiol that can be spewed against anybody who disagrees with anybody else. This isn't a private forum, free from prying eyes or unsavory characters. It can get ugly, and in this context, it seems to me that answering this question straight out is much like putting the can of worms in the hornet's nest and beating the whole contraption with a stick.

 

Just the thoughts that coursed through my mind as I read this thread. I would imagine there are those who would agree with what I'm saying, as well as those who wouldn't. But if I were engaged in some form of civil disobedience, this isn't the place I'd opt to pop on out of the closet about it. ;)

 

Well, you just passed my "right to homeschool" exam. :D

[Kris]

This would be an easy one for me -- thank goodness. I'd have to go "underground" for less than six months, since this state is compulsory only to age 16. Thank goodness The Kid doesn't know that (yet) -- would he want to drop out of HS? LOL!

 

However, I would not go to the time and expense of obtaining a certificate to HS my son. By the time I got finished, he'd be in college himself!

[Cathycam]

when the poor job other parents do puts my liberties at risk I want something to be minimally required.

 

And I feel like umbrella schools who don't oversight are really misrepresenting themselves. Who wouldn't want to make money without doing anything? But that's not what the whole "system" was set up for....

 

Here in FL it's much like TN...

 

And I know some homeschoolers who need some guidance too, but love their freedom not to educate their children.

[LadyAberlin]

I might get certified. It would depend on how long and complicated the process would be. Most likely I'd move out of the country.

[Cathy in SoCal]

We are in CA and were glad to hear what our governor said yesterday. As far as credentials go, if you read the decision that the court made, it specifically says the credential would have to be for the grade you are teaching and the subject you are teaching. This effectively bans homeschooling; and I believe they (the judges) were quite aware of this. For Jr. High and High School that means every subject, every grade. No one, of course, has this type of education, nor would they have the time to get it. By the time they were out of school, their kids would be too. That is what is so outrageous about this.

[Michelle in MO]

ridiculous. I've known far too many homeschoolers who have done a phenomenal job with homeschooling, far better than the public schools could ever do with their children, to support such a legislation.

 

I don't know what I would do, if such credentials were required. I would definitely fight against such a piece of legislation.

 

Having said that, I want to go back to school and get a master's degree to get certified to teach, but it's irrelevant to the issue of homeschooling. It all has much more to do with some of the health issues my dh was undergoing in the autumn, and the fact that we both feel the need for me to be employable. Teaching would be the field I'm most interested in.

 

Good question, Colleen! :)

[TravelingChris]

Here in Florida, in order to get certified you have to spend months student teaching at a brick and mortar school. I was looking into this in order to see if either I or my husband (a PHD physicist) could do some online teaching. It had nothing to do with thinking I need this for homeschooling. If I was in a state where I just had to pass a test, I might do this just to get the certificate. But again, I only am considering this as a career expansion for either teaching online, tutoring, or setting up a service to help other homeschoolers (like doing state mandated evaluations). I did look at some test that was required in one state we lived in (which I don't remember) and the test had nothing to do with knowing the material being taught and everything to do with educational theory and history of educational theory. It was very dull and if you hadn't taken really boring ed classes, you would definitely have to study the material. I had taken an education class on how to teach college class and that didn't help me any with the test. (I had just checked out the practice test cd from the library and tried it) My dh didn't want to try to look for a job in CA due to high cost of living. Now we can add homeschooling problems to the mix.

[Kelli in TN]

when the poor job other parents do puts my liberties at risk I want something to be minimally required.

 

And I feel like umbrella schools who don't oversight are really misrepresenting themselves. Who wouldn't want to make money without doing anything? But that's not what the whole "system" was set up for....

 

Here in FL it's much like TN...

 

And I know some homeschoolers who need some guidance too, but love their freedom not to educate their children.

 

 

Yes, THIS is what I was trying to say. I just would prefer that the umbrella schools do it and let the free market system sort it out. I don't want government intervention but I do so want to see homeschool parents held to a standard.

 

The handful of people I have met that homeschooled "back in the day" did not take these things lightly, as some parents I have met do now. They were breaking laws and challenging the system for a very real reason. Their motives were so much deeper than "I don't like such and such school". They had very few curriculum choices and they worked very hard. We have it so easy now days and I think some people take advantage of the liberties we have.

[PinkInTheBlue]

Kelli, I think my primary problem (if you could even call it that) with your idea of umbrella schools and closer observation is that you stated that each would make up their own requirements. That's my primary problem with AL church schools (not the same as umbrella schools but for the point...). They all operate like a bunch of little homeschooling gods or individual governments. They're all making their own rules and laws and intimidating people into believing that's the way it must be.

 

I guess I'm just becoming increasingly more independent/freedom minded lately and I will push against anyone who thinks they have the right to take away my rights. :)

 

Now, if the state make set requirements and your umbrella school just oversaw those to be enforced, that would be different. *I* would still disagree but it would be a different conversation, at least. :)

[Renee in NC]

Yes, THIS is what I was trying to say. I just would prefer that the umbrella schools do it and let the free market system sort it out. I don't want government intervention but I do so want to see homeschool parents held to a standard.

 

The handful of people I have met that homeschooled "back in the day" did not take these things lightly, as some parents I have met do now. They were breaking laws and challenging the system for a very real reason. Their motives were so much deeper than "I don't like such and such school". They had very few curriculum choices and they worked very hard. We have it so easy now days and I think some people take advantage of the liberties we have.

 

The problem then becomes who gets to set the standard? What if the ones setting the standards decided that every child should follow the scope and sequence for their state? What if they disallowed homeschooling for any child who couldn't pass some test at some age (and you had a child who tested poorly?)

 

That's what I don't like about this umbrella school idea - oversight is just the beginning. Does it really matter? I know a hs family that has done a marginal job at educating their children (at least according to most here.) At 16, mom sends them to the CC to get their GEDs. Sometimes that takes lots of work because they are missing certain key skills that have to be learned in order to pass the test. Did she fail? Are her dc going to suffer forever because she didn't educate them to the level that someone else decides is necessary? I don't think so.

 

What about children with learning disabilities or who are just plain slow learners? Do we require them to go to school unless their parents can afford the latest in therapies?

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, I think my primary problem (if you could even call it that) with you idea of umbrella schools and closer observation is that you stated that each would make up their own requirements. That's my primary problem with AL church schools (not the same as umbrella schools but for the point...). They all operate like a bunch of little homeschooling gods or individual governments. They're all making their own rules and laws and intimidating people into believing that's the way it must be.

 

I. :)

 

I guess my hope is that there would be diversity in the umbrella schools. I am thinking along the same lines as private schools now. In my area we have small town Christian schools with their Paces, we have a classical Christian school that would make most any WTM'er proud, we have a large Christian school that uses the standard Christian textbooks and offers all that a public high school offers, we have a college prep private school that was started on a foundation that is absolutely secular, we have a college prep school that is founded on, as it says "Judeo-Christian values" but does not incorporate this into the curriculum. Variety, lots of variety.

 

So, in my silly little dream of homeschoolers watching the backs of other homeschoolers so the government will leave us alone, there are a variety of umbrella schools. There are Christian umbrella schools and secular umbrella schools, classical umbrella schools and unschool umbrella schools. Some place a high emphasis on testing. Some place a high emphasis on portfolios. Some have different ideas of how to guage progress. They all provide real support and some oversight to homeschoolers but they all operate independant of govermental control.

 

See, I am not worried about you costing me my freedom. I am not worried about most homeschoolers costing me my freedon. I am worried about those rare cases of true educational neglect that make it into the news and get legislators all riled up. If we could honestly say "Look,we are monitoring ourselves" maybe we could keep the wolf away from the door.

[Renee in NC]

That clarifies it a little. So, I could still choose *which* umbrella school and there would be a variety (for all walks of homeschooling?)

[Susan in TX]

I don't want government intervention but I do so want to see homeschool parents held to a standard.

 

Why should homeschool parents be held to a standard? The public schools are not held to ANY standards regarding the educational outcome of any individual child. Many, many, more children are being uneducated by our public school system than by homeschooling parents. Ironically, on one hand the state says that parents are unqualified to teach their own children at home, yet they also put the blame for the failure of their own students on the parents. Also, most abused children go to public school so the possibility of abuse is really no argument for regulating homeschooling. Not to mention the child abuse that occurs in the public schools at the hands of teachers, which I experienced personally.

 

Susan in TX

[Amy loves Bud]

Here is the problem I see with this. The people who are not doing a good job educating their children wouldn't sign up because, well, because they are that kind of homeschooler. So, then the government would step in anyway and require *everyone* to sign up because of these few people.

 

To ferret out the FEW bad apples, everyone has to pay a price. I guess I feel like when the public schools are graduating literate, employable, thinking citizens 100% of the time, then they can come talk to me about what I'm doing with my kids. Until then, they need to do the job they've been hired to do for the families who have actually asked them to do it.

 

As for the abuse, the same argument goes. When public schools can detect, and subsequently prevent, all the abuse situations that walk through their doors, then we can talk. But for now, they have way too much on their plate in that area.

 

The bottom line is that they need to be focusing on educating the children they have been hired to educate, and not worry about the rest.

[tmkclscroggins]

Here's my problem with someone requiring me to have a teaching certificate. There are teachers in our public schools who are not qualified to teach but they are still teaching. There are English teachers teaching science and math and really not knowing what they are doing. Is it fair to require ( hypothetically) one group to have these outrageous demands placed upon them while another group is free from them? Would that not be discrimination? ( I hate to throw that word out there - but since we are speaking hypothetically...... I will).

I think the NEA needs to pull it's head out of their rear and put the needs of children ahead of their own political agenda!

 

Sorry....I feel so strongly on this subject........

 

 

melissa

[Cathycam]

The standard here - in a state with minimal oversight - is that your child is progressing. Not progressing at anyone else's rate - but that each year they are showing that they are progressing in knowledge and ability.

 

I don't have the doom and gloom prejudices about public school that many people do. When I taught CERTAINLY I was accountable for how the children in my class progressed, at least here in FL, I was held accountable by the parents, the administration and ultimately by the county.

 

If there were students who could not pass minimum competancy tests and I could not show a valid reason why then I had to answer as to why those deficits were not addressed sooner. My sister is currently a public school teacher and not only is she accountable in a variety of ways (far more than I was) she also brings home their struggles as much as I stay up late over my own children's.

 

I have no problem turning in my form (which shows no scores or details) each year that says my children (based on a standardized test or portfolio evaluation) have satisfactorially progressed that year. I see it as my responsibility to see that our state continues to feel comfortable with the liberties we have as home schoolers.

 

My biggest problem with states where there are oversight laws and umbrella schools are an option is that many aren't obeying the law that already exists.

 

Each time a home school parent breaks the law - circumvents established protocol - is selfish in their desire to have things their way because it's their right they are endangering the privilege of home schooling. Because like all rights home schooling is not an entitlement...someone worked for that right, someone died for our rights, and we need to respect that enough to give a little of our own "freedom" for the privilege of exercising them.

 

In a perfect world, of course not, but my head is down and I'm driving on in this world - and want to leave it with as many rights for the future as I enjoy now.

 

Just recently one single parent here in FL endangered a benefit that home schoolers enjoy because she was focused on her wants and her needs and couldn't be bothered to follow the rules in place that governed the benefit. She wanted an exception because she didn't do her job, and it's HER RIGHT....and threatened to sue the state. If not for the quick work of our home school lobbyist the benefit may have been lost to thousands of home schoolers who DID follow the rules. As it is the benefit is in jeopardy...and these thoughts are fresh off of that....it makes me plain mad.

[angela in ohio]

Here's my problem with someone requiring me to have a teaching certificate. There are teachers in our public schools who are not qualified to teach but they are still teaching. There are English teachers teaching science and math and really not knowing what they are doing. Is it fair to require ( hypothetically) one group to have these outrageous demands placed upon them while another group is free from them? Would that not be discrimination? ( I hate to throw that word out there - but since we are speaking hypothetically...... I will).

I think the NEA needs to pull it's head out of their rear and put the needs of children ahead of their own political agenda!

 

Sorry....I feel so strongly on this subject........

 

 

melissa

 

That's going to be a problem for them shortly. Under NCLB legislation, each teacher must be certified in the area they teach.

[Kelli in TN]

Here is the problem I see with this. The people who are not doing a good job educating their children wouldn't sign up because, well, because they are that kind of homeschooler. So, then the government would step in anyway and require *everyone* to sign up because of these few people.

 

 

 

.

 

I suppose I view this differently than most because in Tennessee we are already required to either sign up with a church-related school or sign up with the public schools. I would like the CRS to be dropped in favor of an umbrella program that could include the secular homeschoolers comfortably and I would like to see the umbrella schools voluntarily tighten up a bit. But since we are already required to be signed up someone, the thought of this doesn't bother me like it might bother someone who resides in a state with no similar requirements.

[Colleen]

...if you aren't comfortable talking about it here, don't talk about it. I understand and respect your reasons. Something about the wording of your reply feels rather like a dig at me, but....so be it. I appreciate that many were willing to engage in the discussion and I hope it was as interesting and beneficial to others as it was to me.

[Colleen]

I enjoyed this conversation and hope you did, too. I appreciate your willingness to play around with the topic even though my hypothetical was ridiculously vague. The question just popped into my mind and I shared it on a whim.

 

In response to those who asked, I would not homeschool illegally; there are causes for which I would engage in civil disobedience, but this is not one of them. Nonetheless, I would fight mightily laws that would require parents to receive full-blown teaching credentials in order to homeschool. I believe we have a constitutionally-protected right to homeschool our children. I do agree with Kelli, though, when she says, "I think our "mind our own business" approach may be our undoing in the end." I think there is great value in accountability and I would prefer to see more of that, but how it should look, I myself do not know at this point.