How important is it to follow an educational approach as exactly as intended?

[Kfamily]

I've been thinking about this for many years. How important is it to follow an educational approach as exactly as intended ? I don't mean exactly in a hard way-as in no exceptions but, I do mean the majority is covered as intended. (All children are individuals and all of them should have some adaptations made just for them. I just don't want this to see too extreme.) I'm mostly thinking of the classical approach (both LCC style and WTM style) and Charlotte Mason style in particular as these are the approaches I waver between. Or do you think finding your own approach with aspects of both would work too?

Here's some thoughts I had about Charlotte Mason:

I think that to truly succeed with a complete Charlotte Mason approach you should be following most, if not all, of what she had planned. For example, I think I didn't follow enough of her plans and that is why I couldn't have enough faith that it would achieve our homeschool goals as a family. I think I really had trouble with the grammar/composition aspect the most. I do still think that her approach does much better with a teacher who is already very strong in grammar and writing but that's just my opinion. I think that reading at levels that are challenging, dictation (carried out as intended), copywork, oral narrations (done diligently and for every reading) combined with nature study drawings are all needed for the results in writing to be achieved. I fell short of this in so many ways. I did not keep up with nature study and careful drawings. This is important in helping a child concentrate on details. (I really wish I had kept this up-dd would have benefitted a great deal from it. Nature Study was always the first to drop off a busy week.) We did copywork and had made good progress with dictation but I was not as careful to do an oral narration after every reading. As we began adding in written narrations, I felt as if my ability to pull out areas of weakness in her writing was not strong enough. All of this, coupled with the need as she reached grade 6 to add some serious grammar, is what led to my changing over first to Writing Tales 2 and now to Homer. I intend to stay with Classical Writing to help me be a better teacher. All this to say I think it would have been better if I had retained all the aspects of Charlotte Mason.

I find myself equally drawn to the classical style. I see how WTM, if followed as she intended, would lead to a quality education. I also see how LCC if followed as intended would do the same. Not all the roads would end in the same kind of education but all would still be a quality education. I hope that thinking through all this will help me decide if just a quality education is important to me or if I want a particular kind for dds. I also wonder if, in the end and once this question is answered, I should choose a road and really follow it. Would this be better than pulling from more than one approach? I honestly am thinking this through. I think about things for awhile before I make decisions about them. I haven't come to any conclusions yet. Anything I've said is just my humble thoughts and are not directed towards anyone else's approach. I would love to discuss this and welcome all thoughts and ideas. :001_smile::001_smile:

Edited June 20, 2009 by Kfamily

[MamaSheep]

I sure hope picking and choosing from various approaches "works", because that's what I do. I've only been at it for three years so far, and seen what I consider good results, but I suppose the end result of the exercise won't be completely evident until my kids are thirty or so.

 

Unless I am mistaken, the concept of a mix-and-match educational approach is, itself, a legitimate educational approach called "ecclectic", if that makes you feel any better. :)

[Kfamily]

:lol: Yes, this is me!! Eclectic!

[Willow]

I'm a mix and matcher too. I think we have done best with things we have followed through for several years, but maybe that is because the kids know what to expect and how to do it.

 

Maybe one would need to think through what you mean by a 'quality education'. Obviously this would differ from person to person and would be a great exercise for us parents to try, if we haven't already. I did this years ago when we first began HSing but I think it would be different now, less emphasis on the academic and more on the child.

 

If a quality education leads to a academically, spiritually, emotionally fulfilled adult who has a broad general knowledge, a thirst for learning, the skills to self educate, the ability to express themselves clearly and logically both when speaking and writing and finally a zest for life, then one has clearly succeeded no mater what the educational philosophy.

 

One must also be superparent and please could you let me know the secret when you find it. :tongue_smilie:

[prairiegirl]

I know that the purists of the various educational philosophies say that if you don't do things exactly the way that you are supposed to, then you will not get the desired results. Well, all I want is a child who is well educated. I can't see if I pick a little bit from here and a little bit from there how that is going to impede my child's education.

 

I started out hsing wanting to be a CE purist but, alas, I have failed in this. We are eclectic and it is working for us. That is all I care about.

[stripe]

I am sure there are many different views on this, especially from people associated (in various degrees!) with Charlotte Mason.

 

I find her methods to be very interesting, but I have no intention of following everything she said. She is very much a product of her time, but at the same time I think her method is fairly flexible to the various interests and location of the child, in terms of what exactly is studied, but many people are in the British framework, in some way or another, and I don't think that's necessary at all. I find the people who think you have to do everything exactly like her to be a bit scary; it occasionally strikes me as bordering on a cultish type of adherence, especially when some things are not laid out in a clear and detailed fashion in her work, making it hard to follow her to the letter. I also have a completely different view on some things -- for example I disagree with her (gasp!) on the approach to second-language learning and mathematics (both are insufficient, to my mind), but I feel her approach to education as a whole is wonderful.

 

(By the way, I was reading How Lincoln Learned to Read: Twelve Great Americans and the Educations That Made Them by Daniel Wolff and the section on Rachel Carson has several pages on the Comstock book and the educational views about nature study at the time -- this is, as far as I was concerned, the most interesting section of the book!)

[JennW in SoCal]

If a quality education leads to a academically, spiritually, emotionally fulfilled adult who has a broad general knowledge, a thirst for learning, the skills to self educate, the ability to express themselves clearly and logically both when speaking and writing and finally a zest for life, then one has clearly succeeded no matter what the educational philosophy.

 

:iagree: Nicely said!

 

I think you start with your own educational goals and work backwards from there. If an approach like Charlotte Mason or WTM resonates with you, then you should identify what exactly about it makes sense to you and why. Use that understanding of the approach as your guide for homeschooling year by year, rather than following it formulaically. And your homeschool goals don't just have to be academic. Building character, doing community service and nourishing a love of family are all worthwhile goals.

 

As your kids get into high school their own interests and learning styles start to make a bigger difference in how you homeschool. A Great Books study may be your heart's desire, but they may prefer a textbook approach to check off all the college entrance requirements. It helps if you have your own goals set in your mind but can be open to how those goals are met. There is no need to stick to one path -- create the path that works best for your family.

[Storm Bay]

As much as I wanted to follow WTM to the letter, we have become classically based eclectic homeschoolers. We do history from Ancient to Modern, but only 2 cycles. We do use SWB materials to help with this. We do Latin, but not nearly as fast as we should. Not all of my dc have benefited from copywork so not all have done a lot of it, and I don't do narration. Actually, one of mine didn't do copywork until 14 and that was so she could copy essays instead of write them. It did help her somewhat. Also, I combine a bit of better late than early and certain subjects we don't do much with until our dc are about 8. This is due, in part, to the fact that we do 2 math programs and in part to the fact that I let them pursue some of their own interests earlier. Also, I found that rote learning didn't work with my dd's at the point they were supposed to be in the rote stage. It doesn't really work with my ds, either, even though he has a different learning style.

 

I think that the goal is to do your best to give your dc the best education for them. I'm a fan of WTM and tend to lean more and more to it during middle school and high school, but if I don't care for a WTM suggestion for curricula I feel free to find something else; sometimes IMHO I think I findn something that works with classical education better, but since it's not currently in print, it can't really be suggested.

[Peela]

. I find the people who think you have to do everything exactly like her to be a bit scary; it occasionally strikes me as bordering on a cultish type of adherence,

 

I can really relate to the OP, and have considered these issues myself.

However, what I have come to is that there is a strong tendency to want to look up to an authority, and in the end, SWB, CM, Andrew Campbell, - these are all human beings. Their authority and opinions are all worthy of note and serious consideration. But I do find that there can often be cultish type thinking around following the recommendations to the letter.

I think they are all great starting points, and most of us simply dont have the experience these people have...however, I don't discount my own experience after 6 years of homeschooling.

I too get swayed by the different approaches- those 3 in particular- CM, TWTM and LCC. But to me, each also has downsides that stop me following them completely.

The OP mentioned the nature drawing. I tried it. As I read the OP's comments on nature drawing, my heart gave a pang, because I really wanted to do it, too, and saw the benefits. But, my older already does it, in another way. Not the CM way, but she is a watercolour artist, focusing on nature. But she spends weeks/months on one painting! Thats not CM! My younger is so intimidated by his slightly older sister's drawing and painting skills, coupled with his own lack of self esteem and dysgraphia....well, trying to get him to do nature drawing AT ALL met with such intense resistance and melt downs...I gave up.

I love the ideal of CM. But realistically, it's just too many subjects for us. I can't chop and change that many times in one day. Yes, I see the benefits in shorter lessons and we have done that. But too many short lessons in one day makes for chaos around here, and burn out for me, and not enough time to really hone in and focus on any one area. LCC is the opposite in that sense. Simpification- that appealed to me strongly. But I dont want Latin to be the centre, either.

And what CM program would you follow anyway as an ideal? Ambleside and Simply CM are just modern interpretations. I have found this year, using HEO7 as a basis, that I simply dont agree with or like all their book suggestions.... I think they are probably far more conservative than I am. I would love a truly secular and modern, but still rigorous CM approach. But then, I might disagree with it as well...because I have my own world view, values and opinions.

If you look at the this thread on the benefits of classical writing- check out Lene's comments.

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108141&page=2

I agree with her.(she is one of the CW authors) I can't criticise her at all. And yet.....my desire to do "classical" just doesn't stretch that far. I burn out. My kids aren't so academically inclined, even though the older in particular is capable- she is more artistically driven. She loves to write and is fairly good....but I am pretty sure she will do adequately with more mainstream writing programs, too. (and a part of me feels a pang whenever the CW topic comes up because...well, I think its a good program, but I still dont have it in me to do it- any more. We did it for a solid 2 years and that was by no means a waste.)

I admire people who go for the purist approach and don't deviate. But I can't do it. Sometimes I feel I give in too easily- to my own weaknesses, and my kids' whining if something gets too hard or they just dont like it. But, I have always suffered from daily burn out issues. I only have a certain amount of time each day to give to school, before I crash. That influences me. As well as having a dyslexic kid who struggles with some basics and has needed a lot of one on one. I cut myself some slack and we muddle on as best we can, continually adjusting according to all sorts of environmental and personal influences.

The problem for most of us is that we simply learn as we go. We dont have the benefit of having already studied education, classical studies, Latin, writing, higher maths, Great Books etc. We have to rely on more experienced experts to help us find a path that suits us. But the experts all have their limitations as authorities, because they have their influence, their backgrounds, their world view, their values, and their particular children. Who knows if any of them would have the same approach if something in their life was quite different- such as having an LD child? There is a hugely wide range of parental approaches represented on these boards, from parents who are extremely strict, to those who are quite easy going.

Anyway, I dont think you could say that one approach is necessarily going to produce a better outcome than a varied one...because what is better, anyway? How could you ever know? It's one of those things...you can do your best, and then you have to let go and be at peace with that, because you cant know.

[Melissa in Australia]

[quote name=Peela;

The problem for most of us is that we simply learn as we go. We dont have the benefit of having already studied education' date=' classical studies, Latin, writing, higher maths, Great Books etc. We have to rely on more experienced experts to help us find a path that suits us..

 

 

 

this sums up me really. I didn't finish high school. I left school after year 10. I have only a hazy idea of what is expected of someone in year 11 &12. I have never been near a University. I have absolutely no idea about what they need to get there. so I stick to WTM as close as I can. I figure that if I stick close to it, the kids will make it to university. if I swap and change, be a bit eclectic. I might miss out on something. I just don't have the knowledge to make that decision.

[sagira]

:lurk5:

[brehon]

If a quality education leads to a academically, spiritually, emotionally fulfilled adult who has a broad general knowledge, a thirst for learning, the skills to self educate, the ability to express themselves clearly and logically both when speaking and writing and finally a zest for life, then one has clearly succeeded no mater what the educational philosophy.

 

:iagree::iagree: Beautifully said!

 

 

One must also be superparent and please could you let me know the secret when you find it. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah, I musta missed picking up that manual after my first was born. Drats!

 

I think consistency is very important. Not necessarily with regards to a particular curriculum or even a philosophy. But doing something everyday, learning something new, accomplishing at least some of what is planned (by the by, this would apply to both the child and the parent) will over time lead to whatever one's end goal(s) might be.

[dsacco]

I think all in all it ends up with what works for the kid.

 

DS - let him read a textbook, spit it back out and move on..... and it works for him and it allows him to persue other things that he enjoys more than school. I know that sounds strange, but he LIKES historical fiction if it isn't assigned, tools and building things with his dad, and actually working and DOING real life stuff.

 

DD - loves the CM approach but at the same time, LOVES workbooks and "busy work". She likes "twaddle" books and I don't mind as long as she reads at this point! My mother gasps when I say she can read "Captain Underpants" because she cracks up at it.... but then she LOVES Black Beauty as well in the original unabridged form. She also will listen to audio books like Thomas Burgess's Animal Book and LOVES them - along with Our Island Story.... and she remembers stuff from it at odd times ;) So I'm allowing her to love learning and absorb as much as possible with trying to guide her just a little.

 

And it's taken me 2 years to figure out that no matter what, it falls back on the kids. I throw things in such as Latin that they need to know and push in certain subjects (Math) because I KNOW they can do it.

[stripe]

Peela -- you make an interesting point about CM curricula. There are groups who have articulated a curriculum (Simply Charlotte Mason, Ambleside, Mater Amabilis, for example) but there is a lot of articulation of her ideas. It's sort of decentralized, if you will. I really like the book "When Children Love to Learn," and one of the reasons is the freedom and flexibility of her approach-- the authors articulate that one can give and get a great education around the world, with locally relevant content. But that puts the responsibility on me, to design the "right" curriculum.

 

That being said, I was once a member of an Ambleside group, and I found that their approach and mine was not compatible at that time. I felt (and feel), for example, that there are many wonderful examples of children's books written in the last 50 years, whereas the mantra of many there seemed to be that if you buy something old, it will be of great quality -- a notion I also reject. But I am not certain this is a CM thing, or the view of those particular people, who, as part of embracing literary quality, have come to that position.

 

Thank you also for your comments about short lessons. This is quite insightful. I have dueling thoughts in my own mind about delving deep vs. short lessons. In fact, this issue of time is part of why I don't agree with her method of teaching a second language -- she suggests that 1 hour or so a week of French in her schools resulted in students being fluent speakers, and, based on language research I've read on bilingualism, an interest of mine since this is how I'm raising my children, I think that much more time is needed, although granted this is a somewhat different matter than language instruction in school. But suffice it so say that I am not going to risk it by trying her method -- too much is at stake for me.

[Haiku]

I hope that thinking through all this will help me decide if just a quality education is important to me or if I want a particular kind for dds.

 

One of the (many) reasons that I homeschool is so that my children do not end up with a one-size-fits-all education that was created with another child (or no specific child) in mind. To me, that's what the schools do: Here's what we offer, like it or lump it.

 

I follow TWTM reasonably closely, because I believe in what TWTM has to offer. However, SWB doesn't live in our home (although it might be fun if she did!!) and I don't feel any pressure from the WTM police to do everything exactly as described.

 

In the end, the kids' education belongs to them, and I will tweak and change and modify as necessary to suit their needs. Also, I as the teacher account for a lot in the equation, too. There are certain techniques or ideas that are so far outside my comfort zone that attempting them every day would feel forced and stilted and would, ultimately, not produce the desired results because they aren't a match for me, the teacher. So, I take what works for us and leave the rest.

 

I guess that what I am trying to say is that most educational ideas look really great on paper, with imaginary kids and imaginary families who are totally devoted to the ideas and don't have outside distractions, learning issues, housework, and individual personalities. Charlotte Mason certainly sounds like a saint, but I am utterly unconvinced that her ideas were perfectly suited to every child who walked through the door of her school and that her ideas always were implemented without a hitch. Real life has a way of turning even the most perfect theory on its head, and my aim in educating my children is not to follow a certain path, no deviations, but to equip my children to be superior learners. I will do that in whatever way ultimately works best for us, pulling from whichever resources further that goal, regardless of their pedagogy.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

Tara

[Zebra]

I've done a lot of musing on this topic, and come to the conclusion that

it's like the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law.

[InHisGrip]

I think it would be far more important to have the mindset that you DON'T have to follow an educational approach *exactly* as intended. Know that you will have to be flexible for your family. I wonder how many moms drive themselves crazy buying 100% into a specific approach and then beating themselves up when they don't measure up or worse, getting stressed and letting it out on the kids.

 

My short answer for the poster's question is: It isn't.

[Guest]

Umm...the previous posters comments about driving themselves crazy would be ME. I do it/have done it/want to stop doing it. I think any philosophy of education is just that...an idea. It gives a framework to hang the particulars on, a 'ruler' to measure resources by. Not the end all be all.

 

To the OP, thank you for starting this thread. It has helped me so much.