Marylou Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 However, because I realize that others think differently, I don't want the right to demand that women don't wrestle, because I don't want them to have the right to demand that my kids can't do something that is otherwise healthy and harmless. Where did I demand that your son not wrestle a female :001_huh:? Why should you decide what sport others choose? :001_huh: I don't and I haven't. Huh? Ballroom dancing? This does not involve lying with full force on another person's body, but good try :001_smile: . I respect you for being a prude. I hope my daughters are the same. But I don't want you to decide for them. Wasn't planning to. Just wanted to hear what others thought! That's why I started the thread! :D p.s. Please understand this is just a friendly argument and I don't mean to offend anyone in anyway. No offense taken! :grouphug: (all female hug, btw :D ) I think I understand where you're coming from. . . you do not want your son to wrestle a female, but you would rather have him do that than lose the match. And (gleaning from this post) you would NOT be happy if someone told your daughter she could not wrestle against a man. Let me know if I have that wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralloyd Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I am a wrestler's daughter. My dad wrestled in high school and college. So I grew up wrestling with him. When I was in Junior High, I started wrestling with boys at youth functions on the trampoline. I was GOOD, and beat all of them. However, my dad had to tell me to stop, he saw that the boys were enjoying it a little too much ;). I also started to feel uncomfortable. When you wrestle hands end up in places that they just shouldn't, when talking about a young girl and boy. I am so grateful that my dad, knowing the dangers stepped in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I don't think anyone is suggesting that you teach your daughters that it is ok. I believe the issue is whether you tolerate others who teach their daughters that it is ok. When a young male wrestler's only option is to wrestle a girl or forfeit the match, unfortunately parents are being pushed into teaching their sons and daughters that it is okay. Funny how tolerance only works one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I am a wrestler's daughter. My dad wrestled in high school and college. So I grew up wrestling with him. When I was in Junior High, I started wrestling with boys at youth functions on the trampoline. I was GOOD, and beat all of them. However, my dad had to tell me to stop, he saw that the boys were enjoying it a little too much ;). I also started to feel uncomfortable. When you wrestle hands end up in places that they just shouldn't, when talking about a young girl and boy. I am so grateful that my dad, knowing the dangers stepped in. What I don't understand is the idea that any competing against girls (even in non-contact sports) is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 American style boffers are weapons made from pvc piping covered with pool noodle, bits of foam for extra padding if needed and wrapped in duct tape. Perfect for a bit of back yard sparing :) Rosie That sounds like sooooooooo much fun. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.MacGyver Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I am a wrestler's daughter. My dad wrestled in high school and college. So I grew up wrestling with him. When I was in Junior High, I started wrestling with boys at youth functions on the trampoline. I was GOOD, and beat all of them. However, my dad had to tell me to stop, he saw that the boys were enjoying it a little too much ;). I also started to feel uncomfortable. When you wrestle hands end up in places that they just shouldn't, when talking about a young girl and boy. I am so grateful that my dad, knowing the dangers stepped in. Well, I would definitely put a halt to that, too. I think your father was completely correct. However, IMO wrestling around with the boys while kids are just goofing around is completely different (and could definitely go too far) than serious athletes competing in a sport. In a wrestling room (with good coaches), horseplay between the different sexes does not happen. Drilling, running, take-down drills - I seriously doubt anyone has the energy to think of anything but actually getting through practice without puking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 When a young male wrestler's only option is to wrestle a girl or forfeit the match, unfortunately parents are being pushed into teaching their sons and daughters that it is okay. Funny how tolerance only works one way. Not quite true. The boy can and sometimes does forfeit the match. I have a close friend whose son forfeits rather than wrestles. As I said before, I agree that this is a problem. But the male has an option. The female does not. In this case, our choices are: to include the first party and, by doing so, provide the option to the second party to either be included or to exclude himself or to exclude the first party leaving her no option just because the second party doesn't like it. In the case of option 2, there seems to be no recourse to the second party. She's a girl, so it's just tough titties for her. She can't play. Honestly, it's a close one for me, but, as long as we aren't offending too many people, and the offense is small enough, I vote for the option where we treat both parties equally; option 2. Finally, the fact is that very few people at the tournaments seem to have a problem with a girl wrestling a boy. I suspect this is because these people know wrestling, and when you understand what the kids are going through on the mat, you realize that it is simply not sexual or personal. You don't think of your opponent as anything but an opponent. Also, they know these girls and love them. Ballroom dancing? This does not involve lying with full force on another person's body, but good try :001_smile: . Come on! There is nothing sexy about wrestling, and everything about ballroom dancing is sex.:) I would never allow my son to practice serious ballroom dancing with a boy, would you? One last point: If I believed that many wrestlers or wrestling fans in the US found wrestling women to be highly offensive, I would change my opinion. I honestly don't think most wrestlers and fans find it to be that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 IMO wrestling around with the boys while kids are just goofing around is completely different (and could definitely go too far) than serious athletes competing in a sport. In a wrestling room (with good coaches), horseplay between the different sexes does not happen. Drilling, running, take-down drills - I seriously doubt anyone has the energy to think of anything but actually getting through practice without puking. This is an important point. It's not horseplay, flirting, and sex. It's mean, tough, uncomfortable wrestling. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 As I said before, I agree that this is a problem. But the male has an option. The female does not. In this case, our choices are: to include the first party and, by doing so, provide the option to the second party to either be included or to exclude himself or to exclude the first party leaving her no option just because the second party doesn't like it. In the case of option 2, there seems to be no recourse to the second party. She's a girl, so it's just tough titties for her. She can't play. Honestly, it's a close one for me, but, as long as we aren't offending too many people, and the offense is small enough, I vote for the option where we treat both parties equally; option 2. Yep, that is about what I would tell my girl if she came to me and said she wanted to join the boy's wrestling team. Then I would help her find an appropriate way for her to develop her athletic side. It isn't right that a boy should suffer an automatic forfeit since, after all, he did join the boy's wrestling team with the expectation that he would be wrestling boys. Girls don't have a God-given right to join boy's wrestling teams. Sorry. If someone wants to change that standard, then they better have a darn good argument for it besides "it isn't fair". Finally, the fact is that very few people at the tournaments seem to have a problem with a girl wrestling a boy. I suspect this is because these people know wrestling, and when you understand what the kids are going through on the mat, you realize that it is simply not sexual or personal. You don't think of your opponent as anything but an opponent. Also, they know these girls and love them. I think that is part of Piper's point in his article. He is sad that more people don't have a problem with it. Could be that many of them won't say anything because they think they will look too old-fashioned and "intolerant". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.MacGyver Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 A few more thoughts: -Almost every wrestling team has 2 or 3 kids waiting in the wings at each weight class, and many wrestlers wrestle "up or down" a wt. class depending on the opponents. Many teams take forfeits for different purposes depending on match up strategy. These things are extremely common (and would not reflect badly on the wrestler's overall record - which is usually what is important to them). If a wrestling family had any objections to wrestling a girl, they could talk openly with the coach (most people are quite reasonable), and their boy would be moved around or something in order to avoid the girl without hurting the team or the wrestler's record itself. No one would even know except the family and the coach. Of course, in a tournament, it may be a different story...the thing is...like I said before...the girls who wrestle AND the wrestling community itself are making great strides in order to give the girls their own brackets at tournaments. - This is NOT an easy sport, or one that a person plays just for some exercise or for fun. There is pain involved and is extremely rigorous physically. Any female that takes this up must be super serious about it IMO. If they have higher goals like National tournaments, college, and the Olympics (which are completely segregated) they are going to wrestle when and where they can. I won't judge her or her parents decisions just as I will not judge those boys who "opt out." - In living in a huge wrestling town where the entire community is involved in the wrestling programs from 4 year old up....I can say that in places like that, it has been accepted. The girls are split up if they can, and if not, they are treated like anyone else. People really don't have a problem with it - and these are some very conservative people. I think they are ok with it because they know the sport, and they know it is not sexual or offensive to the girl. - These boys who wrestle are well disciplined young men with high morals. They would and do stick up for the females in their school. In fact, in many schools the wrestling team tends to fashion themselves as the "protectors" of the girls and the picked on kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMW Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 We are boffers! I didn't even know it! I just knew that grandma made "safer" jousting and jedi toys for the boys... we are fans of pvc and swim noodle light sabers and etc.! I told my daughter no, she couldn't wrestle on a high school team. She didn't like it and she might make a different choice for her own daughter some day. For me, I can believe that it is a sport and that the competitors are not "thinking" sexual thoughts, but I am viewing a boys hand/arm between my daughters legs... and I will not encourage that. But, I know that others choose differently and that's that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I agree with the article. ETA: A question...should the same rule apply to being matched against a girl in taekwondo? Our son's school has as many girls as boys in class. Often, the girls are better at the sport than the boys at the same level. I think tournaments segregate the boys and girls, but I'm not sure because we've only had our son competing in forms and breaking so far. My sons have told me that they do not like tournament sparring against girls. They intentionally/instinctively hold back and the girls do not! So, my guys have taken losses to girls when they could have perhaps beaten an equally-skilled male opponent. They are put into a defensive position only, and decline the opportunity to score offensive points. Their choice, I know, but I admit I am pleased that they are young gentlemen. Just feel bad that they can't win 1st because of that virtue, kwim? So I also believe that, for scoring, they should be separated. However, I think that it is beneficial for the girls to *train* to fight off guys, after all, that's why I had my dd in TKD. But I think that can be done with the instructor's supervision during class time. Just our 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I would like to make an observation. Piper seems to have two objections: sex: "If a jock from Northern Minnesota encircles her around the breasts and twists his leg around her thighs, trust me, he will dream about that tonight." teaching men not to respect women: "Men don’t fight against women." Based upon their attitudes toward karate and judo, those on this forum who object to women wrestling men seem to disagree with Piper's second point. They seem to feel that it is OK to force a boy to fight a girl in karate or Judo. It is OK to kick a girl in the chest or ribs, trip her and throw her to the ground, or pretend to punch her in the face. It is only the first part where those on the forum agree with Piper. IMO then, Piper and those speaking here against girls wrestling are ignorant about the sport of wrestling. (Sorry to use such a trigger word like "ignorant". I do not mean it in a derogatory way. There is nothing evil about being ignorant about something. We are all ignorant about many things.) There is nothing sexual about wrestling. Mrs.McGyver seems to be the only other person speaking who is intimately involved in wrestling and she seems to feel that it is not sexual. Even my friends who object to their sons wrestling girls don't pretend that their sons are turned on or get impure thoughts while wrestling girls. Their complaint has always been "I don't want my son to learn to beat up on women." (BTW: I sometimes find that complaint somewhat disrespectful to the women, especially in the case where she's going to toss their boy around the mat.) What if, as was once the case, there were too few girls in Karate for a girl to find a female karate partner? What if, then, the boys refused to do karate with the girls because they didn't want to learn to fight women or to have sexual fantasies about rubbing up against their bodies while scuffling? More than 30 years ago I taught karate, and this was the case. Would you agree then that women should stay out of karate? Perhaps self defense for women against men should be banned. Certainly it should be frowned upon. Certainly those women and their daughters who engage in it are somehow less pure and less perfect in the eyes of God than the rest of us. Another thing that is disrespectful to women and gives men impure thoughts and sexual fantasies is when men see a woman's face. It is positively shameful when women don't cover their face in public, don't you think? One person posted with pride that she didn't allow her daughter to show her navel in public. I think a woman's eyes are more provacative than her navel, hence the only appropriate dress for women is the full burka worn by the women of the Taliban. Obviously I am being fecetious, but I think it helps makes my point. Men, and especially boys, may and will become aroused by things that women do. This cannot be stopped. Please be careful when you advocate something that will effectively ban women from the sport of wrestling. Please be sure that know what you are talking about when you make unsubstantiated claims. When Piper says "Get real, dads. You know exactly what almost every healthy boy is thinking. If a jock from Northern Minnesota encircles her around the breasts and twists his leg around her thighs, trust me, he will dream about that tonight. Only in his dream she won’t have clothes on. And if he doesn’t dream it, half the boys in the crowd will. Wake up dads. You know this." he demonstrates his ignorance of the sport of wrestling. Surely he is aware of how little he understands wrestling. Yet, instead of investigating the matter, he is only too willing and eager to encourage one group of people to ostracize another. And still worse, he claims to be ostracizing them "for their own good". Finally, bbased upon this quote:"When the apostle of Jesus tells us to live with our wives “in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel†(1Peter 3:7), he dumps a truckload of wisdom that fathers should build into their sons.", Piper implies that God disapproves of a man competing with women at a wrestling tournament. Is that what 1Peter 3:7 was saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglin'5 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Perhaps bringing up the Taliban in a debate should become the new Godwin's Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 I would like to make an observation.. quote] Thank you for your input (not said with pride). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Who's this John Piper? What a chauvinist! First wrestling isn't brutality. If it where it would be no better for boys wrestling boys than wrestling girls. Piper says: "Some cultures spend a thousand years unlearning the brutality of men toward women". What he fails to mention is that he and others like him have failed to unlearn the lesson that women are not second-class citizens, And that treating them like "weaker vessels" and denying them opportunity is ugly and venal. You "honor" women by showing them respect. Not by playing the chauvinist. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Who's this John Piper? What a chauvinist! First wrestling isn't brutality. If it where it would be no better for boys wrestling boys than wrestling girls. Piper says: "Some cultures spend a thousand years unlearning the brutality of men toward women". What he fails to mention is that he and others like him have failed to unlearn the lesson that women are not second-class citizens, And that treating them like "weaker vessels" and denying them opportunity is ugly and venal. You "honor" women by showing them respect. Not by playing the chauvinist. Bill This would be two threads where I agree with you. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 You "honor" women by showing them respect. Not by playing the chauvinist. Bill This is what bothers me most about the article. I don't buy for a second the idea that a boy wrestling a girl will create a future wife-beater. If all of the moral lessons about respect and civility you teach your son can be undone by one wrestling match, your son needs to find a new sport and you need to find him a therapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Who's this John Piper? Bill He is a council member of CBMW. Surprise! http://www.cbmw.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 He is a council member of CBMW. Surprise! http://www.cbmw.org/ What is the CBMW? ETA: A quick look at the web-site makes it pretty clear what kind of group this is. "Anti-egalitarian" and promoting the notion women should be submissive to men. They really are the "American Taliban". Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 This is what bothers me most about the article. I don't buy for a second the idea that a boy wrestling a girl will create a future wife-beater. If all of the moral lessons about respect and civility you teach your son can be undone by one wrestling match, your son needs to find a new sport and you need to find him a therapist. I get angrier the longer I think about this, so I'm going to try to stop looking. It's not as though this girl woke up one morning, tossed her pretty princess pjs and her pompoms and decided she wanted to wrestle (tee hee). She has worked HARD for this, and to diminish it, or limit HER, because of her sex?!? That is just really disturbing. The implications you've listed, that the boys will have a revelation and start to beat women on the streets, it's so ludicrous, that now it seems they need as much "protection" from the town criers as she does. Yes, yes, they're all little bundles of hormones at this age, but that does not mean they don't know how to behave in public, in competition, and in private. IOW, I totally agree you, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Well, that website gives great insight. Women should be subservient to men, be meek and humble toward men, and busy themselves in their home. I can see how wrestling would be outside those parameters. So why be disingenious and claim the reason to avoid sporting against girls is to protect them against future spousal abuse? Why not just be honest and say they think girls have no business doing "male" things, and a girl has no right to enter into competition against a boy? Is it because the true feelings behind the protest are not so palatable and easy to pass off as being "right"? This blog on the site spoke volumes about the roles worthy of women: http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/My-Credo-as-a-Christian-Woman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 IOW, I totally agree you, lol. And I with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Who's this John Piper? What a chauvinist! First wrestling isn't brutality. If it where it would be no better for boys wrestling boys than wrestling girls. Piper says: "Some cultures spend a thousand years unlearning the brutality of men toward women". What he fails to mention is that he and others like him have failed to unlearn the lesson that women are not second-class citizens, And that treating them like "weaker vessels" and denying them opportunity is ugly and venal. You "honor" women by showing them respect. Not by playing the chauvinist. Bill Bill, My eldest son is not a chauvinist; he has a great respect for women. He just doesn't want to grapple them in martial arts -- either around their necks, their thighs, or their chests. He does not want to have his hands around a woman he is not married to. To him, he is treating women with honor and respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 What is the CBMW? ETA: A quick look at the web-site makes it pretty clear what kind of group this is. "Anti-egalitarian" and promoting the notion women should be submissive to men. They really are the "American Taliban". Bill Yeah, they are all sitting around planning to put women in burkas and basically imprison them in their own homes, take over the government, impose a theocracy, and kill anyone who disagrees with them. :001_rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Well, I guess my hubby is a chauvinist, and myself a prude, because there's no way in Hades that he'd allow our dds to wrestle. He'd have a stroke at the first match. The skill of the sport would be totally lost on him, the only thing that would matter is some boy with his hands on his daughter in extremely personal areas. :lol: I love him, but he does have a touch of Fred Flinstone in certain areas...and me, well...Call me Wilma, I guess :lol: For us, wrestling just isn't a sport that we would be comfortable with our daughters participating in. We do plan to have all of our kids in martial arts, for the mental and physical discipline aspect, first and foremost...the actual physical art is second. I took Karate for two years, and the physical contact was minimal, (at least at the levels I achieved) so that's what I'd be looking at for my kids as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Perhaps bringing up the Taliban in a debate should become the new Godwin's Law. Thank you for the criticism. I agree with you. I went a little overboard.:iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Why should the stronger women be forced to fit the stereo type of the weaker sex? So, this girl is good at something, but shouldn't be allowed to compete, because she's a girl. She should shave her head and try to pass then. We've come so far. For pete's sake! We cannot even be equal in competition???? Exactly. Ok, I can somewhat see your point here but even if the girl is stronger and she can win (which I admit would be very empowering for her) it would teach men to be physcially agressive with women and they would definitely have sexual thoughts doing it. Even if the girl wins that will just teach the boy to try harder and be more aggresive next time. I just don't see how this could be a good thing. We can't attribute sexual thoughts to everything for one thing. And in wrestling...shouldn't the loser be more agressive and try harder next time? Does it concern you that your son may hurt a young lady? How would you feel if he does?I have only sons...and no, if a girl is competing I'm assuming she and her parents know that she could be hurt, just as my sons could be hurt. I would not have a problem with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Perhaps bringing up the Taliban in a debate should become the new Godwin's Law. or at least a new forum rule. very inflammatory, not germane to the OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Bill, My eldest son is not a chauvinist; he has a great respect for women. He just doesn't want to grapple them in martial arts -- either around their necks, their thighs, or their chests. He does not want to have his hands around a woman he is not married to. To him, he is treating women with honor and respect. And this is perfectly fine. What I have always objected to is not individuals or families choosing not to say, wrestle...but others imposing those same restrictions on other families. So, for us it would not be a problem for my boys to wrestle a girl. It's fine that it is in your family...I only object when others tell me that I shouldn't let my sons or daughters do certain things because they (the other party) objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) Yeah, they are all sitting around planning to put women in burkas and basically imprison them in their own homes, take over the government, impose a theocracy, and kill anyone who disagrees with them. :001_rolleyes: They want, no expect, women to be subservient to men. And try to enforce this anti-egalitarianism though appeal to their interpretation of religious scripture. Any difference between their attitudes and those of the Taliban are purely cultural. Once you say "God instructs that women shall be second-class", you have crossed the rubicon. So the Taliban demands burkas, and some other group demands denim-jumpers, but the mentality is exactly the same. Bill Edited June 5, 2009 by Spy Car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 And this is perfectly fine. What I have always objected to is not individuals or families choosing not to say, wrestle...but others imposing those same restrictions on other families. So, for us it would not be a problem for my boys to wrestle a girl. It's fine that it is in your family...I only object when others tell me that I shouldn't let my sons or daughters do certain things because they (the other party) objects. I agree with you on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) So the Taliban demands burkas, and some other group demands denim-jumpers, but the mentality is exactly the same. Bill Bill, please start your own thread if you want to discuss this. You are way out of line here, and I hope you're not doing it intentionally so that the thread is trashed. Maybe you don't want others to see the Piper article? Edited June 5, 2009 by dmmosher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Well, I guess my hubby is a chauvinist, and myself a prude, because there's no way in Hades that he'd allow our dds to wrestle. He'd have a stroke at the first match. The skill of the sport would be totally lost on him, the only thing that would matter is some boy with his hands on his daughter in extremely personal areas. :lol: I love him, but he does have a touch of Fred Flinstone in certain areas...and me, well...Call me Wilma, I guess :lol: For us, wrestling just isn't a sport that we would be comfortable with our daughters participating in. We do plan to have all of our kids in martial arts, for the mental and physical discipline aspect, first and foremost...the actual physical art is second. I took Karate for two years, and the physical contact was minimal, (at least at the levels I achieved) so that's what I'd be looking at for my kids as well. And isn't it great that you have that choice? What if the new mandate was that girls shouldn't be allowed to participate in martial arts because a girl's place is not to be protector of the home? We should leave martial arts to the boys because their role is ensure the safety of women. If the issue is with sexual contact, that is one thing. But this website promotes a certain place for women and a limited role that they should fill. Those are separate issues. But to address the sexual contact issue: why is it that women seem to be the ones to have to adjust to prevent perceived unwholesomeness? This is most likely a whole new can of worms, but it seems to me that the restraints are consistently placed on women to somehow "protect" men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 And this is perfectly fine. What I have always objected to is not individuals or families choosing not to say, wrestle...but others imposing those same restrictions on other families. So, for us it would not be a problem for my boys to wrestle a girl. It's fine that it is in your family...I only object when others tell me that I shouldn't let my sons or daughters do certain things because they (the other party) objects. And no one is doing that in this discussion! And John Piper certainly is not trying to regulate your family. He wrote a commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 How is Bill out of line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorsay Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 The whole taliban thing is my fault. I brought it up because I couldn't think of the name of the particular burka that those ladies wear. I went way too far with my example and it obfuscated my argument rather than strengthened it. I apologize. It has been a good argument up to now; one that has made me think a lot about my own beliefs. Thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglin'5 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Thank you for the criticism. I agree with you. I went a little overboard.:iagree: You are very gracious. :cheers2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Bill, please start your own thread if you want to discuss this. You are way out of line here, and I hope you're not doing it intentionally so that the thread is trashed. Maybe you don't want others to see the Piper article? No, I think people should see the stuff that's spewed by the John Pipers of the world. Scary stuff! And you were the one who started the tread and linked to a web-site filled with his odious teachings. You want them uncommented upon? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhudson Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 In my opinion, I think if a girl and her family are okay with her participating in a sport like wrestling, that's fine, she should be allowed to. What I do object to is when my boys (note - wrestling isn't something we've done, karate, soccer, swimming, baseball etc we've done) choose not to compete against a girl that they are put down or seen as chauvinistic. If a girl can have the option to compete against the boys without any backlash than my boys should be able to choose not to. I do choose to put my kids on teams that are either all boy or all girl to avoid this. Not because my dd is incapable of competing with the boys because she is far more competitive than her brothers but because we choose to expect our own sons treat women with a respect and honoring that isn't popular in the world today and we expect that same treatment for our dd. Oh and we choose not to wear denim jumpers because they are not as flattering to us.:glare: Not big fans of burka's either.:001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 They want, no expect, women to be subservient to men. And try to enforce this anti-egalitarianism though appeal to their interpretation of religious scripture. Any difference between their attitudes and those of the Taliban are purely cultural. One you say "God instructs that women shall be second-class", you have crossed the rubicon. So the Taliban demands burkas, and some other group demands denim-jumpers, but the mentality is exactly the same. Bill I have spent most of my entire life among very conservative Christians and never in my life I have met any man who expects women (almost all of them wearing pants by the way! :)) to be subservient to them. My brother attends Piper's church as I have on occasion. This idea isn't taught there or even hinted at. There is the teaching that wives should submit to their husbands with many teachings on how men should treat their wives. That is very different from all women being subservient to all men. Seems to me that is what the Taliban teaches--that women are second-class citizens and have no standing as a human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) But to address the sexual contact issue: why is it that women seem to be the ones to have to adjust to prevent perceived unwholesomeness? This is most likely a whole new can of worms, but it seems to me that the restraints are consistently placed on women to somehow "protect" men. I think if you read the article again, you will see that Piper is talking to fathers about their sons. In no place do I see him addressing women to somehow protect men. I appreciate your post. I think it breaks down to folks who see it as "preceived unwholesomeness" and others who see it as unwholesome. No one is trying to change your mind. Some people think it's okay to be physically on top of someone of the opposite sex and to whom they are not married. Other people think it is not right. That and a few other points is what I got from the article. Edited June 5, 2009 by dmmosher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) It has been a good argument up to now :iagree:; one that has made me think a lot about my own beliefs. Thanks everyone Thank you, Jorsay. I didn't reply to your burka comment because I didn't want to say anything I would regret later! I also want to say that when I mentioned that the females in our family don't show off our midriffs (sp?) I was not saying it pridefully. Just in case anyone wanted to call me a prude, I wanted to let you know (especially by today's standards) how prudish I truly am! I did not demand that you or anyone else stop allowing your son to wrestle girls. I did not tell any girls to stop wrestling. This is a discussion about it, and I'm glad you wanted to discuss it, especially since you have children who wrestle. Contrary to what a PP said, I did not make the point that the physical/sexual reasoning is my only objection to male/female wrestling. I could elaborate, but my kids are waiting for their lunch! Also, I do not believe it is wrong for girls to wrestle girls. Edited June 5, 2009 by dmmosher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 And this is perfectly fine. What I have always objected to is not individuals or families choosing not to say, wrestle...but others imposing those same restrictions on other families. So, for us it would not be a problem for my boys to wrestle a girl. It's fine that it is in your family...I only object when others tell me that I shouldn't let my sons or daughters do certain things because they (the other party) objects. :iagree: I guess that is what gets me upset about this whole thing. It's that a boy gets penalized for not wanting to wrestle a girl. They are being told to just deal with it. A choice between losing or wrestling the girl anyway doesn't seem like much of a choice. If there would be a way of settling the issue without penalizing the boy, that would be better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I have spent most of my entire life among very conservative Christians and never in my life I have met any man who expects women (almost all of them wearing pants by the way! :)) to be subservient to them. My brother attends Piper's church as I have on occasion. This idea isn't taught there or even hinted at. There is the teaching that wives should submit to their husbands with many teachings on how men should treat their wives. That is very different from all women being subservient to all men. Seems to me that is what the Taliban teaches--that women are second-class citizens and have no standing as a human being. Can you define the difference between "submission" and "subservience", because I'm seeing a distinction without a difference. Once you say it's men's role to rule over women, women are second-class, and not equal partners in a marriage, or in any other aspect of society. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 And John Piper certainly is not trying to regulate your family. He wrote a commentary. That is how I read the article. It is an encouragement to fathers to stand up for what they believe and not be cowed by political correctness. It wasn't an argument to convince people who disagreed with him or a call for people to take over the high school wrestling departments and demand that no girls be allowed to wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 They want, no expect, women to be subservient to men. And try to enforce this anti-egalitarianism though appeal to their interpretation of religious scripture. Any difference between their attitudes and those of the Taliban are purely cultural. Once you say "God instructs that women shall be second-class", you have crossed the rubicon. So the Taliban demands burkas, and some other group demands denim-jumpers, but the mentality is exactly the same. Bill This will be the last thing I say on this, unless you want to start a new thread . . . males and females are equals the words "subservient" and "submissive" are not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglin'5 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Can you define the difference between "submission" and "subservience", because I'm seeing a distinction without a difference. Once you say it's men's role to rule over women, women are second-class, and not equal partners in a marriage, or in any other aspect of society. Bill First of all, I don't submit to men in general, just my dh. Secondly, he is also supposed to submit to me, though he ultimately has the last word - somebody has to. Thirdly, he is not supposed to "lord it over" me. Does submitting to elected officials make one a second-class citizen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Can you define the difference between "submission" and "subservience", because I'm seeing a distinction without a difference. Once you say it's men's role to rule over women, women are second-class, and not equal partners in a marriage, or in any other aspect of society. Bill There is a big difference in me deciding to submit to my husband in a marriage by allowing him to make certain decisions for our family and me thinking I have to do whatever any man tells me to do because since he is a male he has authority over me. I'll try to think of an example: I shouldn't have to wear certain clothes (like a burka :)) because some men in my society decide they can tell me what to wear. However, if I have a piece of clothing that my husband believes is too revealing and is uncomfortable with me wearing (like a thong bikini--which actually my husband would prefer me to wear :lol:) then I would respect my husband's wishes and not wear that. Maybe that isn't the best example but is that any clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherE Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Some people think it's okay to be physically on top of someone of the opposite sex and to whom they are not married. Other people think it is not right. And I guess some people would see a sporting competition rather than two people laying on top of eachother. I think this is one of those incidences where people view things in such different ways that it is difficult to understand the other's point of view. Thank you for responding. :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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