cross post: Steve Demme defends MUS!

[4wildberrys]

He gave me this awesome response to my inquiries about the program after reading some pretty disparaging thoughts about whether MUS is enough for 'college bound' or 'math bright' kids. This is for you moms using MUS and loving it, but feeling pressure to switch to something 'more rigorous' for high school!

 

Katie

Thank you for writing and giving me an opportunity to assure you that MathUSee will more than equip your student for college, upper level science, advanced math applications, and standardized testing such as the ACT and SAT.

There are several issues being raised in the comments by the “advisorâ€. I will respond first in in a general sense addressing the big picture and then go through the “review†more specifically point by point. At the end of these responses I have included several testimonies from students, parents, and one from a college professor.

I hope my explanation will help to restore your confidence in your original decision to switch to MathUSee. You and your student will do well and in a few short years be glad you made the switch and did not hearken to the nay sayers.

 

Blessings

Steve Demme

 

General Comments on Math Education in the U.S.A.

 

As you are probably aware, when it comes to math, the U.S. does not fare well when compared to other nations. Our education experts have responded by increasing the quantity of math topics in math textbooks. They reason that more is better and more material will produce stronger math students. But this has not been the result.

Interestingly, countries that excel in these international comparisons spend more time on essential concepts mastering the material instead of hustling through a dizzying array of math subject matter as we do in America. Subsequently our math curriculum in America has the reputation of being a mile wide and an inch deep.

My conviction is to improve the quality of each lesson by spending as much time as is necessary for students to thoroughly master a topic before moving on to a new subject. I believe one concept understood is better than three that have been covered in a table of contents.

Most of us who have been through the school assembly line recall that it is possible to pass a class without understanding what we have been taught.

By the time a student has completed the MathUSee curriculum he will have studied the same math topics as his contemporaries in other math curricula PLUS he will understand what he has been taught and be able to apply this knowledge in upper level science course and other advanced math applications. The sampling of testimonies will bear this out. But one in particular from an Academic V.P. of a respected college will illustrate this best.

 

He told me in no uncertain terms that their students had come to them with excellent test scores but they didn’t have the requisite math knowledge to complete the one required science class. They knew how to do math on paper but they didn't understand the underlying concepts of math and were not able to apply what they had “learned†from the textbook in their upper level science course. (The science class in this case was physics. I didn't ask the professor's permission to quote him so this is purposely vague).

 

Review of the Comments from the “Advisorâ€

 

I selected sentences in the comments you sent to me from the forum and they are in green. My comments follow in blue.

 

“I can only speak in general terms on MUS.

1. Obviously I can speak to MathUSee since I authored it. But I also taught 4 levels of Saxon, the 76, Algebra 1/2, Algebra 1, Algebra 2 in the classroom and tutored from several other books. I chose these books for my classes because I like the word problems and spiral review in each lesson.

 

It is a very different set up than Saxon, more of a mastery approach than spiral approach.

2. When I wrote MathUSee I incorporated what I think is the best blend of mastery and spiral. In each lesson we have several Lesson Practice pages which focus exclusively on the new topic and these are followed by several Systematic Review pages which reinforce topics previously taught. Our students have time to thoroughly master each topic AND review all that they have studied up to that point.

 

So an entire year is mostly dedicated to fractions, while another year is mostly dedicated to two-digit multiplication etc.

3. MathUSee was written for home educators. This is a very different approach to teaching. A home educator is more of a tutor than a classroom instructor. Tutors move at an individual student’s pace, whereas classroom instruction moves at the pace of a textbook. Tutors teach children with textbooks, classroom instructors teach textbooks to children. We do not have grade levels or “year†expectations on any of our levels. A level may take 6 months and it may take a year and a half. We encourage teachers to move at the pace of their student.

I thought it interesting (and providential) that fractions and multiplication were commented on. Recent studies have observed that the reason American students do not do well in Algebra is because they do not understand multiplication and fractions. Another reason we do not have grade levels, is that some students may need to go back and take a refresher course on fractions or decimals before delving into PreAlgebra or Algebra 1. Math is sequential and builds upon previously mastered topics. Where a student is placed is just as important as moving at his pace.

 

There are not many homeschool friendly Calculus programs out there

4. We are 4-5 lessons from completing the MathUSee Calculus which will be out this fall. Since the fall of 2008, we have been teaching a group of MathUSee students who had completed PreCalculus as juniors and were eager to be a part of our beta testing group. One young man had finished PreCalculus as a sophomore.

 

I think what is most important is that you have the tools to successfully teach the math to your student so that they can do well.

5. I couldn’t agree more. And we have many tools. In addition to an Instruction Manual, a Student Text, and a Test Booklet, we also have instructional DVDs, manipulatives, Honors lessons (now a part of the Student text), ongoing support from qualified tutors, online forums, and other online resources.

 

So overall, it seems like their sequence of courses is about 1/2 year to 3/4 of a year behind a typical sequence in high school math.

6. Since we move at the student’s pace, our sequence can’t be behind. If you read the testimonies you will notice that many of the students were ahead of traditional grade level expectations. In MathUSee we encourage students to move at their pace. If they need longer to master a topic they have that freedom. If they understand a new topic quickly they are encouraged to keep moving. Since we use manipulatives, abstract concepts are learned more readily.

 

Again I've not actually delved into the MUS books themselves

7. MathUSee is much more than books. While we continue to improve our books, the focus is on understanding math (math you understand or math you see). Teachers (and many students) learn the concepts of math from watching the DVD and students (and many teachers) experience and understand math through the use of the hands-on manipulatives.

 

My post here is too LONG---so I am going to post the Testimonials on the next post :001_smile:

[4wildberrys]

Testimonials

 

Dear Steve,

Well at least one of your students has made it to the "big leagues". Elizabeth and I are very proud of Michael and his many accomplishments and we thought you might enjoy an update on one of "your kids". He has worked incredibly hard over the past few years. After completing Math-U-See Trigonometry as a ninth-grader he was very ready for college level calculus. You may remember Michael as he was one of your early "Beta Testers" for the Trig tapes.

He will be attending Texas A&M in the fall as a Mechanical Engineering and Math major. But because he has so many hours coming in, he hopes to take some electronics classes as electives!

Steve, Thank you for Math-U-See and being a significant part of Michael's becoming an excellent math student and potential engineer.

Regards,

Dan, KY

 

♦ ♦ ♦

 

Steve

 

I will tell you that my ONLY and biggest regret in our 9 years so far homeschooling is that after we finished Intermediate, I switched my kids to Saxon 7/6 that sent us on a 4 year spiral of disaster in math. I must have used 6-7 different curriculums over a span of 3 years after our Saxon disaster year. I was swayed by 'reviews' even though MUS was the ONLY thing that turned on the light bulb in our daughter's head to math and numbers. At almost 17, she is finally, finally understanding Algebra 1 and our son who is very math bright is reviewing quickly the Prealgebra before he moves on. The new program is simply awesome---we LOVE the Honors pages and they are a perfect addition for my "Mr. Know It All" son! I am also so happy about the new Calculus---I can't wait to learn it with my son!

 

Thank you so much! And did I forget to mention just how much we are loving MUS (again)??

 

Katie

 

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Philip was in 7th grade finishing Saxon 87 when he hit the wall. He just couldn't understand some of concepts in the manner they were being taught. I had already used 5 different curriculums and all had their strengths and weaknesses. I decided to take a serious look at what Math-U-See had to offer. Within a month Philip had not only mastered the concepts but was enjoying math again. Benjamin, 19 months younger, kept pace with Philip, and by the end of their sophomore and freshman year respectively, they had completed all Math-U-See had to offer.

By spring of Phil's sophomore year (Ben's freshman year), I decided to enroll them in a math class at University of New Hampshire, Manchester. Benjamin had just turned 15 when they took the entrance exam for calculus. They fell one point below the acceptance score for entrance into Calculus I and they learned from the chair of the math department that this was only because they had taken pure trigonometry and had not been exposed to some of the PreCalculus material. She recommended they audit PreCalculus the first semester and take Calculus I in the second semester. They completed the requirements expected of all the students and finished with the top 2 marks in the class. In the spring when they took Calculus I, they again came in as the top 2 students. Benjamin had just turned 16.

How well were the boys prepared for college courses? According to the chair of the math department of U.N.H. Manchester, they had a better understanding of the concepts she taught in her PreCalculus and Calculus I than many of her incoming students. I believe this has to do not only with their preparation but also their love of learning. Math-U-See remained interesting throughout and never became drudgery for them. They liked using the manipulatives initially to grasp the concepts in Algebra but quickly moved beyond them. The name "Math-U-See" aptly describes the program. Once the student visualizes the concept, it becomes imprinted in their brain, and they can apply the concepts learned to the next level.

My two younger children use Math-U-See and also love the program. My youngest, in 6th grade, will soon finish PreAlgebra and can't wait to begin Algebra I. Perhaps some would say they are just bright in math. I would agree that Benjamin has exceptional aptitude in math - in fact, he plans to major in mathematics in college - but the rest have no greater aptitude than many other students. Because of the way Math-U-See incrementally introduces concepts, I believe children can advance more quickly than with traditional math programs.

Why did I wait until Philip began Algebra before trying Math-U-See? I must admit I questioned the use of a program using manipulatives and videos to teach math concepts, so I tried 5 other programs first! Like others, I tended to shy away from nontraditional math programs. Fortunately, my children protested, forcing me to pursue something new. Once I had really used the program and saw how much my children enjoyed it, I knew it offered what they and I had been looking for. Not only that but every one of my children's standardized test scores improved significantly after using Math-U-See.

Enthusiastically, I can not only recommend Math-U-See to the child struggling with math but also to the exceptional student whose favorite subject is and always will be math.

 

Sincerely,

Helen, MA

 

[4wildberrys]

Excerpts from a MUS Users Group Discussion)

Julie

I can give you some personal experience with using Math-U-See through high school. My son was eligible for the Naval Academy with his math scores, and he did Math-U-See exclusively from 3rd grade through the Trig program. When he finished with Trig, he had to go to the local community college to take a PreCalculus course. He had to take a placement test before they would accept him, and they were amazed at his score, saying that they don't often see such high math scores. He is now a sophomore in college and is doing great with his math courses. My daughter, a high school senior, has wonderful scores on her ACT and SAT and she only took them once. She has used Math-U-See since 1st grade. She is eligible for scholarships as a result. Of course, everyone will not have the same story because people are individuals.

Math-U-See is organized according to the sequential order of mathematical concepts. It is a very logical approach and makes learning math easy. If you put every math curriculum side by side, you would see that they all cover things at different times. There isn't a standard for what to cover when.

I hope this is helpful to you. Please feel free to call me or e-mail me with any questions. I would be happy to help.

Debbie

Julie's response:

Thank you Debbie for explaining it so well. I like the part about not just memorizing formulas, but understanding what is happening. That is all I did in High School is memorize formulas and did very well short term, but I never knew what I was learning and long term did not remember hardly anything. I want my child to remember what he has learned and I think that only happens by learning the "why".

Thanks again for all your help,

Julie

 

♦ ♦ ♦

 

Dear Dan and Angie

I was the parent that was being advised by mentors in my homeschool group to stop MathUSee for upper levels. I wrote you earlier in the year and Mr. Demme graciously responded to my concerns via your email. The email encouraged me to stick with the program and not be swayed. We did struggle some through Algebra I and progress slowed down after lesson 13 but my son finished the book in a timely manner and did well. He took the Standard Achievement Test through our homeschool group in late March 2003 for 8th grade and he ended up testing very well with a percentile score of 99.9%. I did not know his test results until late June after we finished the Algebra I program. In July I went to my homeschool conference to map out a high school plan for my son. I was gently encouraged to consider another math program for high school. At that point, I referred the counselor to my son's SAT scores and asked if I should change programs if the results I were getting were satisfactory. The curriculum counselor viewed my son's National Test scores and could not say anything negatively about his math program. After all, what can you say when the child only misses one question in a nation wide test for math understanding. This happened to be his highest math score ever. Anyway, I was told my no means should I change what is doing so well for us. I had no intention of changing as my son's test scores were confirmation from the Lord for me to keep doing what we have always been doing, MathUSee.

Please pass on this report to Mr. Demme and tell him how much I appreciated his email as it encouraged me to stick with the Algebra I program and not be persuaded to change to another program midstream. I also appreciated that he did not have to defend his program by talking against another program.

 

Sincerely,

Jeanne, CA

 

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Mr. Demme,

Wanted to let you know that Aaron (who has used Math-U-See from Foundations through Algebra 2) recently took the COMPASS placement test for college (he will be taking college courses for dual credit). Out of 100, he earned the following scores: PreAlgebra 99, Algebra 99, Trigonometry 19, College Algebra 32. They placed him in Intermediate Algebra which is after College Algebra/Trig ... and he hasn’t even had Trig. We are very pleased with the results & credit Math-U-See's emphasis on understanding the reason “why†behind the “howâ€.

 

Thanks,

Susan

 

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Dear Steve Demme,

I just wanted to thank you again for your wonderful program. We have been using Math-U-See for about 6 years and recommend it often. I was a math major in college and tutored for years before having children. I believe any one can be good at math using your program. My five children all learn differently and all do well with Math-U-See.

My husband was so amazed at the program that he watched the videos starting at the foundations up through algebra 2 and went back to college after 15 years off. He took Physics with Calculus for a year and got straight A's. Our 12 year old son just took the college SAT and we are waiting for his score. On the practice tests he was scoring over a hundred points higher than the average college bound senior in high school. Your videos explain the material so well that my children rarely have questions for me. I tell people that you can explain new concepts better in 5 minutes than most teachers can in weeks of lectures. And the way you always review and build each concept on the last is wonderful. By the time my children learned what multiplication was they knew all of the answers!

Please keep up the good work. God Bless You!

Larry & Kandis, WA

PS We just got Jonathan's college SAT scores. He got Verbal - 560 (67%) and Math - 660 (87%). Thank you again for helping him to succeed.

 

[4wildberrys]

Last bit of testimonials :tongue_smilie:

I've been homeschooling for 12 years, and I've bought for, and taught, every level of Math U See to my kids through Trig.

My oldest is now in college, and I have a 10th grader who went to school for the first time this year. She's taking Algebra II AC (honors) and is doing better than either my spouse or I ever did in that subject, THANKS TO her foundation in Math U See, through the old Algebra/Geometry book.

Our Christen started Cedarville last week. She is majoring in Physics. We regret that we did not teach her Calculus BEFORE college, but she certainly had a STRONG Math foundation (THank you!)--and scored a 730 on the Math section of the SAT! We hope she will get the hang of Calculus,too. We are SO grateful for the excellence you put into Math U See. I am starting our soon-to-be adopted son in Math U See this year. He's 8 and joins our other five on Decimal Street! :)

 

Gratefully,

Idora, OH

 

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We currently have 5 boys in Math U See and have been using it for about 10 years. I am amazed at how easy it has been to teach my boys. None of them has ever been "stuck" on a concept. When I teach the lessons the way you recommend they always "get it." Sometimes I think they are saying to themselves, "duh, Mom!" My 15 year old is in PreCalculus, my 13 year old is in Geometry, my 11 year old is in Algebra, and this without pushing them hard at all. We just did math every day at a very reasonable pace.

 

Mother in Iowa

 

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Math-U-See has significantly boosted my confidence, passion, appreciation, and understanding of math. Prior to using this wonderful curriculum, I had loathed math in every way. Since my mother introduced me to Math-U-See in 8th grade, I have completed PreAlgebra, Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II and have indeed benefited greatly from this fabulous foundation. As a visual and kinesthetic learner, the step-by-step DVD helped me understand math much better and complete the rest of the lesson more satisfactorily and confidently on my own. I had never realized that it was possible for me to enjoy math! Even though I am still a junior in high school, I am currently taking algebra in college. I was extremely surprised when my professor told me that it wouldn’t even need to take the final because I have the highest grade in the entire class, a 98%! As the other students whine and complain about how difficult math is, I, with a huge grin, offer to help and encourage them along the way, just as Steve Demme did for me. Now, after my experience with Math-U-See, I can honestly say that, “Math can indeed be fun AND understandable!â€

 

Lauren, Student, St. Louis, MO

 

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I was an advanced math student (several years of calculus and differential equations in high school), but I'm learning and strengthening my math foundations as I teach my kids using Math U See. I would like to use Math U See to help my college students fill in the gaps from their elementary and high school education. Keep up the great work!

 

Albert Yee, Ph.D.

Adjunct Professor, William Jessup University

My Ph.D. is in Mechanical Engineering with a minor in Mathematics

 

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We used Math-U-See for five years with one of our children. He loved math and found that MUS provided a solid foundation. That same son will be starting his junior year in college next September and is a math major. Currently, as a sophomore, he is enrolled in two very difficult and very different calculus courses--doing well in both. He's even been asked to be a math tutor! Thanks, Steve!

 

Vicki, MN

 

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Dear Mr. Demme,

My name is Alex Bates and I am a homeschool student who will be graduating in May. I have used Math-U-See for the past eleven years. When I was in the first grade, my parents took me out of private school and decided to try homeschooling. I struggled with math, and because of this, I hated to even bother with it. I would cry, out of frustration, every time the subject came up. My mom decided not to teach me math for the rest of that year until God would show her a way to open the subject to me without creating stress. During this time, she prayed fervently that God would lead her to a math curriculum that would help me understand the principles, and that I would enjoy. That summer a friend introduced her to Math-U-See. We started at the beginning of the Foundations of Math book. Though I began to grasp the concepts quickly and easily, I was still determined to detest math.

In the ninth grade I started the Algebra 1 book. At the time, I was also working toward my amateur radio license. I realized that the formulas in algebra are necessary for electronics theory. I suddenly had a reason to study math and to enjoy it. When I took Algebra II, we began using the Honors book. This book was also helpful because it applied what I was learning to practical problems, including electronics. I am currently working through the PreCalculus book, and enjoying it and my Physics curriculum. After graduation, I plan to study electrical engineering. I never dreamed that I would choose a career that requires math!

After watching you on the videos for the past eleven years, I feel that I have come to know you like a friend. I joke to my parents that I am going to take one of your DVDs with me to college just so I won’t miss you. God has used you to help direct my path. I thank Him for your gift for teaching and for your ministry through Math-U-See.

 

Sincerely,

Alex Bates

 

[i.love.lucy]

Can I ask a dumb question? How do I know if I should switch?

 

We are using Singapore. It's okay. Math facts are not memorized, but I'm going to work on it this summer. DD complains about math and thinks she's not mathy, and I know I'm not. At what point do I know if we are just going through the motions? Should I expect her to ever really "fall in love" with math, or is this fine? She is an exceptional reader and does well in other subjects. She even does okay with math, but hates add/subt facts. Singapore moved on, so we did. I just don't know unless she starts getting lots of problems wrong if a concept is not getting in there. KWIM? Math was and is my scariest area to teach as I contemplated homeschooling, and I want to make sure we don't get too far down the road in a program that is ultimately not going to work for her.

 

If you had a non-mathy kid, who is just going in to 4th grade, would you switch to something like MUS or keep on with Singapore until the proverbial wall gets hit?:confused:

[rowan25]

Thank you for posting all of the responses, etc. It helped solidify in my mind that I wanted to stick with MUS!

[mrsrevmeg]

Can I ask a dumb question? How do I know if I should switch?

 

We are using Singapore. It's okay. Math facts are not memorized, but I'm going to work on it this summer. DD complains about math and thinks she's not mathy, and I know I'm not. At what point do I know if we are just going through the motions? Should I expect her to ever really "fall in love" with math, or is this fine? She is an exceptional reader and does well in other subjects. She even does okay with math, but hates add/subt facts. Singapore moved on, so we did. I just don't know unless she starts getting lots of problems wrong if a concept is not getting in there. KWIM? Math was and is my scariest area to teach as I contemplated homeschooling, and I want to make sure we don't get too far down the road in a program that is ultimately not going to work for her.

 

If you had a non-mathy kid, who is just going in to 4th grade, would you switch to something like MUS or keep on with Singapore until the proverbial wall gets hit?:confused:

 

 

I would suggest changing if you feel she is not getting what she needs. I am not making a promise that your daughter will fall in love with math and decide to major in math one day. All I think is if you have doubts about what you are using, make a change. If you are worried about hitting a wall then maybe you need avert that wall. My boys are head and shoulders above their friends in math. They are using MUS exclusively. That is good enough for me.

[LoveBaby]

Can I ask a dumb question? How do I know if I should switch?

 

We are using Singapore. It's okay. Math facts are not memorized, but I'm going to work on it this summer. DD complains about math and thinks she's not mathy, and I know I'm not. At what point do I know if we are just going through the motions? Should I expect her to ever really "fall in love" with math, or is this fine? She is an exceptional reader and does well in other subjects. She even does okay with math, but hates add/subt facts. Singapore moved on, so we did. I just don't know unless she starts getting lots of problems wrong if a concept is not getting in there. KWIM? Math was and is my scariest area to teach as I contemplated homeschooling, and I want to make sure we don't get too far down the road in a program that is ultimately not going to work for her.

 

If you had a non-mathy kid, who is just going in to 4th grade, would you switch to something like MUS or keep on with Singapore until the proverbial wall gets hit?:confused:

 

I have a non-mathy DD going into the 4th grade and we switched to MUS after convention. My daughter is finally getting math *and* she doesn't fuss anymore about doing it either. I love it because I don't have to teach it to her. We watch the video together, I make sure she understands what he is talking about and then she works on her pages. The way the review is set up is great, as well, because she needs several days to really solidify what she is learning, but she is still getting review of what we've already gone over. Their online fact drill is great and if she ever needs more worksheets I can create more for her.

 

BTW...we tried singapore, too, and it didn't take long for me to realize that the understanding just wasn't there for her at all.

[i.love.lucy]

I would suggest changing if you feel she is not getting what she needs. I am not making a promise that your daughter will fall in love with math and decide to major in math one day. All I think is if you have doubts about what you are using, make a change. If you are worried about hitting a wall then maybe you need avert that wall. My boys are head and shoulders above their friends in math. They are using MUS exclusively. That is good enough for me.

 

I have a non-mathy DD going into the 4th grade and we switched to MUS after convention. My daughter is finally getting math *and* she doesn't fuss anymore about doing it either. I love it because I don't have to teach it to her. We watch the video together, I make sure she understands what he is talking about and then she works on her pages. The way the review is set up is great, as well, because she needs several days to really solidify what she is learning, but she is still getting review of what we've already gone over. Their online fact drill is great and if she ever needs more worksheets I can create more for her.

 

BTW...we tried singapore, too, and it didn't take long for me to realize that the understanding just wasn't there for her at all.

 

 

Thanks to the both of you for your responses! I think maybe now is the time for me to investigate MUS more. I looked at it last fall when I began this whole journey but didn't get it. Now I really need to look at it more. I just don't think Singapore has enough review to make sure we are really getting the concepts before moving on. Hopefully I can find a friend that can loan me a level to really try out.

 

Thanks again!

[Guest bookwormmama]

This was awesome to read and solidified my reasons for continuing with Math U See for our 4 children! I love Math U See.. it is teaching ME how to do math and I even do the math problems myself with the kids because I am definitely learning along with them! ;)

Amy, I would tell you that if your child is complaining about math you should switch. We were originally doing Saxon and while one of my children loved it {he is just mathematical by nature and loved it} my other child groaned and whined and cried whenever we had to do math. She hated it. I hated it too. I was terribly bored with it too. So my friend introduced me to Math U See and we switched and my kids LOVE math now! It is their favorite subject, all of them! And they ask to do math first before any other subject! I love that because I grew up hating math because of the way I was taught. I am learning, they are learning, and math is fun in our house! Everyone wants to do math, even the little ones! It is no longer the scary subject for me to teach. I enjoy it now and I am not at all worried about teaching the kids when they are older. I have full confidence that they will do well and I will be right there with them.

 

Bottom line is... if your child is complaining about math when you take it out, switch. They don't have to love it {my daughter that hated Saxon is not a math lover either} but she loves math a lot more because it's fun but also because now she understands it and she is quickly progressing!

[Donna T.]

It's about time Steve Demme defended MathUSee! I get so tired of the questions about whether or not I think MathUSee is "enough." If I didn't think it was "enough", I wouldn't be wasting my time on it. Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to know how to defend MUS, but I know we love it. I spent two years literally losing sleep over how I was going to teach math. I was new at homeschooling and clueless. Thankfully, we found MathSee right before my son started 2nd grade. He's starting 5th grade next year. No sleepless nights due to math in three years! Yippee! My son looks forward to math, understands what he is doing, is memorizing his facts effortlessly, is making steady progress and has literally forbid me to even consider changing his math curriculum.

 

I think love for math and a strong foundation in basic skills and understanding the concepts goes a long way. For us, MathUSee is just the right amount of everything. My son does every single page in the books even though I often tell him he doesn't have to. But, he wants to because he feels successful at math and it's a confidence booster for him.

[angela&4boys]

Thank you 4wildberrys!

 

We've had great success with MUS and have used it through Epsilon so far. The information you shared is more confirmation that I'm not budging. Honestly, this is the first math program that both of my boys are retaining and have not been frustrated with.

 

MUS is truly a Godsend for our family and we plan to stick with it for the long haul.

 

I really appreciate you posting this! :)

[Caroline4kids]

This is a wonderful thread. I LOVE MUS but it was not always that way. I didn't get it the first time I used it and placed my son too high (beta when he should have been in alpha). He struggled and I switched to something else. Well, he is back to MUS and loving it and the rest of my children are getting the benefit of it from the beginning. No one complains and everyone loves math. Today my son reviewed three lessons in Epsilon. How wonderful that he can be empowered to review things without any input from me!

 

I get so tired of all the "rigorous" talk! I passed my high school math courses with flying colors and forgot them the next day. I would have loved to have MUS--maybe I would still remember something.:)

[Paintedlady]

I get so tired of all the "rigorous" talk! I passed my high school math courses with flying colors and forgot them the next day. I would have loved to have MUS--maybe I would still remember something.:)

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

All of the rigorous talk has my eyes glazed over nine ways to Sunday. We've used 4 different levels of MUS so far and have no plans to change, ever. Both my "mathy" ds and my "not so mathy" dd love MUS. Although my dd is the older and a level behind her brother, they both get it in their own way, at their own pace. And I don't give a rat's patootie whether they're "behind" or "ahead" anyone else. They're right where they need to be and it's a beautiful thing IMO!

 

On a little side note--I met and talked to Mr. Demme and was completely impressed with his intelligence and dedication to this curriculum. Add to that he's a dedicated family man with a special needs son (down's syndrome) and a strong Christian to boot.

 

I know that has nothing to do with his curriculum per se, but it warms my heart even more that we're supporting a family, not just a company, yk? We all love Mr. Steve here!

[Lovedtodeath]

I didn't get it the first time I used it

 

I think that I tried to move through it too quickly at first. I don't love MUS, but I don't hate it anymore either. I probably could have done a better job teaching it.

 

I think it is a fine program, but the danger is in children getting bored with it and shutting down the learning process.

 

I am just glad that I found a math program that works for us. (Abeka)

 

As for the "rigorous" talk, there is a lot to be said for making sure a concept is fully understood.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[LizzyBee]

Not trying to be snarky, but of course he defends it! He wrote it. ;)

 

I'm all for using whatever works for a child, and I've been homeschooling long enough to recognize that a program that is fantastic for one family will be a disaster for others. But the author of a program is NOT someone I'd trust for a fair, unbiased, objective view of said program. It is like asking SWB if SOTW is a good history book.

 

:bigear:

 

But on occasion, SOTW has been criticized and SWB has responded to those criticisms. It's up to the reader to decide if the criticisms and/or the defense are valid or not. I do think an author's response/defense to criticisms can be important in helping people make an informed decision. I'm not trying to be snarky either, just giving another pov.

[Caroline4kids]

Not trying to be snarky, but of course he defends it! He wrote it. ;)

 

I'm all for using whatever works for a child, and I've been homeschooling long enough to recognize that a program that is fantastic for one family will be a disaster for others. But the author of a program is NOT someone I'd trust for a fair, unbiased, objective view of said program. It is like asking SWB if SOTW is a good history book.

 

:bigear:

 

I think the author is the best one to ask. I go to conventions to pick the brains of the authors. I often have overlooked something or was unsure of their philosophy until I received it from "the horses mouth" so to speak. Of course they are going to defend their product, but often I can determine if their products fit my style by hearing from them directly. It is easier for me to eliminate programs by talking to the author.

[4wildberrys]

Not trying to be snarky, but of course he defends it! He wrote it. ;)

 

I'm all for using whatever works for a child, and I've been homeschooling long enough to recognize that a program that is fantastic for one family will be a disaster for others. But the author of a program is NOT someone I'd trust for a fair, unbiased, objective view of said program. It is like asking SWB if SOTW is a good history book.

 

:bigear:

 

Snark away---because you're right---there is no ONE perfect program for all kids. But I contacted Steve and shared with him what I had been reading lately about how MUS is not 'rigorous' or for college bound kids and in my heart, I knew it was hogwash. I just needed HIM to assure me of that---the testimonials he provided are enough for me to buy it---along with how fantastic my son is doing in MUS again :D I posted Steve's response mainly for those of us USING MUS and having to doubt our decisions by people that assure us that it is not 'rigorous enough' at the high school, college bound level---and I too am glad to FINALLY get Steve to defend his awesome program!!

 

The extended practice for each new topic, followed by review of previous topics is really making a difference ;) And the Honors pages are GREAT! My favorite part is that accelerating through topics my son gets right away prevents that boredom, since the program is not set up to have daily lessons, but weekly lesson topics that allows for speeding up or slowing down as necessary.

[dee67p]

I will get to hear Mr Demme again this year at the ICHE conference and am so glad to have bought the Gamma materials for my older son's third grade math. I'm bringing my husband to this convention and hope to reassure him that Mr. Demme is preparing our little engineers/scientist for college and grad school study.

[Storm Bay]

Can I ask a dumb question? How do I know if I should switch?

 

We are using Singapore. It's okay. If you had a non-mathy kid, who is just going in to 4th grade, would you switch to something like MUS or keep on with Singapore until the proverbial wall gets hit?:confused:

 

 

We have done MUS with Singapore Math for several years now, and it has been a great combination; we get the best of each. SM isn't designed to drill math facts. Have you been doing the bar diagrams with SM? Or the HiG?

 

We like Mr. Demme and MUS, but it wasn't enough for us. We find that the combination has worked beautifully.

 

One more thing: I was very mathy and didn't have all my facts down until I was 10. My dc learn them by doing lots of math and doing math all year. MUS helps, of course, but it alone hasn't done that for my dc, either, to be honest.

[Storm Bay]

I wanted to get back here sooner, but the forum server was too busy.

 

When I answered I love Lucy, I said something I'd like to clarify. I said that MUS wasn't enough for us, and I want to emphasize that that doesn't mean it's not a good program or that it is lacking. There are some brilliant things Mr. Demme does, and there are times he was the only one who could get through to my stubborn (at time) vs dd, such as regrouping. However, there are times when what he did confused her, even though those very same things are just what some dc need.

 

MUS has so many great things, and there are some who take it all the way through and do well. But, like every other math program out there, it isn't going to be just the thing for every student. We happen to like SM's word problems better, but it doesn't mean that we don't like MUS. While I usually recommend that people supplement them, it's not because MUS is bad, it's because I am one who prefers to use more than one thing for math anyway. Naturally, I'm going to recommend what has worked best for us if I think there is some validity to it.

 

I just don't want anyone to read my other post and think I am saying that MUS is not a complete program. Homeschooling, as Mr. Demme wrote, is about tutoring. It's also about finding just the right thing or combination for each of our dc, which of course varies. With my middle dd in particular, we need a multi-pronged approach. She has done MUS Alpha-Zeta, but still needs to go back to fractions and relearn them if we take a break (and she's also done them with SM, not all at the same time, so there was review). That's how she is. She can't divide fractions Mr. Demme's way, but I think some of what he's done in that course is brilliant. I was a very math dc, but never truly understood dividing fractions until I watched him teach it. He has a gift for teaching and making things clear; some dc will thrive only with MUS, and I can see that.

 

So, no, people don't have to switch. It's so tempting to allow ourselves to feel that we're not doing our best, particularly if there are other posters who don't like the curricula we choose. I had planned to use only MUS, but added; I didn't drop it, though. If I thought it a poor program, I would have dropped it the way I did Saxon. I strongly dislike Saxon, yet others love it and swear by it.

 

If it's working and fulfilling your dc's math needs, continue. However, every math program writer is going to defend their program and have good testimonies to back them up because some dc will do well regardless of the math program. But if your dc has had their math eyes opened and are really learning with MUS, stick with it and ignore the gainsayers (maybe you even thought I was one, since I happen to also love Singapore Math).

[jensway]

Just wanted to thank 4wildberrys for doing the due diligence and then sharing what she learned. I really appreciate it!

 

We've used MUS from primer through epsilon. Sure there have been lessons that challenge my son and seem like he won't get it, so we just spend a little more time on those with continued repetition. Take this year for example fractions, some lessons he breezed through others not so.

 

Next year he will be doing Zeta-decimals/percents. DS thinks next year is going to be a piece of cake as I've been side teaching the decimals/percents slowly as we go along the other concepts where it fits.

 

I asked DS if he wanted to change math curriculums since epsilon seemed to be a challenge. He said no he did not want to change because he loves MUS and that it just took time this year for fractions to sink in.

 

A friend of ours has a child doing MUS Algebra and my DS was looking in his book and already starting to work the problems without any prompting, so I believe he will be ready for that one as soon as he gets through Zeta.

[razorbackmama]

Just thinking out loud here...

 

I've heard of lots of testimonials of how MUS was "just fine" for advanced math in college...I wonder if there are many who did great in MUS and then went on to advanced college math and found themselves completely unprepared. That would be the true "test" IMO of whether it can adequately prepare kids.

 

I've heard of other curriculums that are similar - kids did fine in them when they were homeschooling and were able to go on and do fine in college. But then using that same curriculum, which they aced (so it's not like they struggled with math really...at least not with that curriculum), other kids end up having to take remedial math. That's what tells me if the curriculum itself may play a role in adequately preparing a child for upper level math.

 

I honestly can't think of anywhere that I've heard of anyone having that experience with MUS, so I'm wondering if it's even out there. I HAVE heard of stuff like "math was just a STRUGGLE," of course, those kids probably wouldn't be taking advanced math in college anyway LOL. So that's why I'm wondering about kids who do WELL in MUS...have any gone onto college and actually FOUND that it had not adequately prepared them?:confused:

[Guest justjoy]

I was wondering if someone could give me some insight into whether or not MUS would be right for us. I've seen the demo and think it would be a good idea for my dd going into 3rd grade. She's having trouble mastering some math facts from this year in Saxon 3. It doesn't seem that she gets enough drill on new concepts. My question is, will it be time intensive prep for me? I have a dd who is 3, a ds 6, and another ds 10.

 

Thanks for your help!

[Lovedtodeath]

IMO math facts are not a strength of MUS. Understanding concepts is what MUS is all about. If the facts are your problem, you might want to get Abeka's speed drills or some other drilling program.

 

But I could be misunderstanding what you are saying. :tongue_smilie:

[asta]

Just thinking out loud here...

 

I've heard of lots of testimonials of how MUS was "just fine" for advanced math in college...I wonder if there are many who did great in MUS and then went on to advanced college math and found themselves completely unprepared. That would be the true "test" IMO of whether it can adequately prepare kids.

 

I've heard of other curriculums that are similar - kids did fine in them when they were homeschooling and were able to go on and do fine in college. But then using that same curriculum, which they aced (so it's not like they struggled with math really...at least not with that curriculum), other kids end up having to take remedial math. That's what tells me if the curriculum itself may play a role in adequately preparing a child for upper level math.

 

I honestly can't think of anywhere that I've heard of anyone having that experience with MUS, so I'm wondering if it's even out there. I HAVE heard of stuff like "math was just a STRUGGLE," of course, those kids probably wouldn't be taking advanced math in college anyway LOL. So that's why I'm wondering about kids who do WELL in MUS...have any gone onto college and actually FOUND that it had not adequately prepared them?:confused:

 

I think this is a good point. A HS mom I knew the last place I lived had a very "mathy" child (by his own opinion). He was involved in a math club and everything.

 

He had completed all through Calculus in a popular program + extras (can't remember which it was, though I know it was either TT or Chalkdust). When he went to take the SAT, though, he bombed the math portion. It was as if he had retained all of the wrong concepts. It was just sad for him.

 

 

asta

[Storm Bay]

IMO math facts are not a strength of MUS. Understanding concepts is what MUS is all about. If the facts are your problem, you might want to get Abeka's speed drills or some other drilling program.

 

But I could be misunderstanding what you are saying. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

In MUS you aren't supposed to move on until you master any math facts taught in that lesson. This is especially clear in Gamma when the multiplication facts are taught. That said, drill was never successful for my dd's.

[Storm Bay]

I think this is a good point. A HS mom I knew the last place I lived had a very "mathy" child (by his own opinion). He was involved in a math club and everything.

 

He had completed all through Calculus in a popular program + extras (can't remember which it was, though I know it was either TT or Chalkdust). When he went to take the SAT, though, he bombed the math portion. It was as if he had retained all of the wrong concepts. It was just sad for him.

 

 

asta

 

 

I think that many times when dc stick with only one math program from beginning to end there is a risk of this happening. NO math program is perfect. I've heard this of some dc who take Saxon, too. One of the greatest benefits of homeschooling is the flexibility to add different things. This is true in many fields; for example, I've heard of talented dancers rejected for programs because they've only ever been exposed to the technique of one school.

 

The most important aspect of math isn't the calculations, although that is certainly important, and I'm a firm believer in accuracy. The most important aspect of math is the thinking and the logic. Many mathy dc have suffered when they went to university/college for this lack. My db has to help first year university students with this every single year. He teaches Physics, but he sees it in the math; when he used to be at a college (aka 2 year college in the States) he taught Calculus for a while and it was very apparent there; kids who could factor beautifully in Algebra had no idea why they factored, and therefore came to calculus and had no idea when to factor.

 

For those who love a math program, I strongly recommend supplementing it with something else, even if it's inexpensive. I used to recommend CWP as the word problems are fabulous, but it's going out of print. Something new we're going to try is Murderous Maths, which is humourous. But then, we do two math programs regularly now, because during our first couple of years of homeschooling it became evident that there wasn't one program that worked for my second dd.

 

Yes, some dc are going to do well regardless of their math program. Some are going to struggle regardless of their math program. But some of those who struggle regardless of math program may benefit from different approaches, and those who are mathy definitely ought to see it from different ones. Suffice to say, all dc in the middle ought to at some point, as well. It doesn't have to mean two total hard programs; as I mentioned, we're going to get the humouours Murderous Maths books.

 

MUS has it's strengths, for sure, and some kids HAVE aced their SATs after only MUS, but who knows how they've approached math in other subjects such as Chemistry, etc. They probably know. But, like every other math program in existance, it's not perfect. In order for there to be a perfect math program, there would have to be perfect authors. For there to be perfect authors, there have to be perfect people.

 

Even if you don't want to supplement your math, be sure to practice before taking the SAT and take the study courses; those could help you see ahead of time if you need help in your math or any other subject before taking them. Not that we want to teach to the test, but if that test is important for your dc, then it's helpful to prepare.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Karin

[datmama4]

Just a quick note here to defend Math U See.

 

We used Saxon for our oldest child, and began using it for our second child when he was in first grade. By the time our oldest was in Saxon 76 and our second child was in Saxon 3, both boys were having a tough time understanding the lessons and our school days were filled with frustration and tears (theirs and mine) when "math time" came. They would sit there for literally an hour or two, trying to do a few of the problems in the assignment.

 

A friend recommended MUS, and we have never looked back. All three of our kids love it and have begun to thrive in math. All of them have good test scores in math, and they understand the "why" of what they're learning, which is something I never had (and I never struggled in math when I was in school).

 

Something I got a kick out of: my youngest said it's really nice to use MUS because if they need to hear the lesson again, Steve Demme doesn't get frustrated and talk louder, LOL.

 

Mr. Demme actually came to our town to speak at a homeschool "Day Apart" that we have each year (parents only, a day of mini seminars and encouragement). The three families who arranged the event got to take him to supper the night before and we really get to know him and his heart for what he does. I have the utmost respect for him and would recommend his program to anyone.

 

Lynda (datmama4)

[i.love.lucy]

 

Something I got a kick out of: my youngest said it's really nice to use MUS because if they need to hear the lesson again, Steve Demme doesn't get frustrated and talk louder, LOL.

 

(datmama4)

 

 

:lol::lol: That's so funny!!!

[8filltheheart]

. not 'rigorous enough' at the high school, college bound level---

 

 

I have taught MUS's alg and geo program. It is not equal to other texts I have used (Foerster, Chalkdust, and Jacobs). Regardless of Demme's response or people's personal preferences, there is a difference in content and level of difficulty.

 

I'm not saying MUS won't get your student where they need to go. However, that is not the same as saying that they are equal.

[Storm Bay]

I have taught MUS's alg and geo program. It is not equal to other texts I have used (Foerster, Chalkdust, and Jacobs). Regardless of Demme's response or people's personal preferences, there is a difference in content and level of difficulty.

 

I'm not saying MUS won't get your student where they need to go. However, that is not the same as saying that they are equal.

 

 

They are different, there is no question that level of difficulty varies with the method. But one of the keys is to learn to think so that you can solve problems without memorizing formulas. If MUS can do that for a dc, then it helps. This is where supplementing with something else is such a benefit if Mr. Demme's method is the one that suits a child. We're not planning to use MUS beyond Zeta ourselves.

 

I have to agree with the poster about how if a lesson has to be repeated, Mr. Demme doesn't talk louder. If I'm at the end of my rope in some area (I have intense dc) that can be just the thing around here.

[8filltheheart]

They are different, there is no question that level of difficulty varies with the method. But one of the keys is to learn to think so that you can solve problems without memorizing formulas. If MUS can do that for a dc, then it helps. This is where supplementing with something else is such a benefit if Mr. Demme's method is the one that suits a child. We're not planning to use MUS beyond Zeta ourselves.

 

I have to agree with the poster about how if a lesson has to be repeated, Mr. Demme doesn't talk louder. If I'm at the end of my rope in some area (I have intense dc) that can be just the thing around here.

 

I have followed with another complete yr of alg and another complete yr of geo (using the texts in my OP). My kids breezed through MUS. I do love how it gives them a solid foundation in the concepts. However, the other textbooks are not something that they can just step into and do the work. They have to learn the concepts at a much deeper level and how to apply in a way that requires much more comprehension of what they are doing beyond MUS's methods.

 

I will continue to use his alg and geo programs as pre-alg and pre-geo. They are excellent for building those foundations.

[sagira]

I think that many times when dc stick with only one math program from beginning to end there is a risk of this happening.

 

This is very interesting information. I have heard the opposite: it's best to stick to one program as each has a foundation on which they build on higher concepts. If I'm not mistaken SWB says something similar in TWTM too. That said, I'm combining myself: MCP Math and Miquon.

[Lovedtodeath]

Don't they stick to one program in a brick and mortar school?

 

I have really enjoyed this discussion. It has helped me to overcome my dislike of MUS. No, we didn't continue with the lesson until the math facts were mastered. lol. Maybe the biggest problem we had was "user error". After reading through this, I might get MUS again for fractions. :tongue_smilie:

[CourtneySue]

Don't they stick to one program in a brick and mortar school?

 

I went to PS and I don't remember, although I don't think it was necessarily true. A few years ago when I was working at a PS I know teachers could choose whichever curriculum they liked from some state approved curriculum.

 

I'm someone who always did really well in math, even in college, but the thing that always made math understandable was not the textbook but the teacher. I remember so many times looking at the next topic and thinking I would never be able to figure it out then the teacher would get up and walk us through the problems and everything would make perfect sense (and if they were really good they would show more than one way to do the problems--which is probably why more than one curriculum might be good).

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[sherylwinter]

hey there,

It was interesting to read the testimonies about people using program and success stories. I am not a mathy person at all and like the idea of having DVD to explain things to help me better explain to my child. I have couple friends who use this and really like it. I have been using Rightstart but don't want to use it next yr. Rightstart wasn't easy for me to use with littles and teaching math same time and really just didn't "get" some of it(both boys in level C). There are so many lessons using manipulatives and never get to the games. I have baby and toddler and will b teaching my 3 boys next yr. So this is something I am considering 4 next yr. But really I need something that's pretty open and go...so I'll see. It sounds like a good program though. Thanks 4 posting!

sherylwinter(formerly sherylinarctic :)

[Lovedtodeath]

I went to PS and I don't remember, although I don't think it was necessarily true. A few years ago when I was working at a PS I know teachers could choose whichever curriculum they liked from some state approved curriculum.

 

I'm someone who always did really well in math, even in college, but the thing that always made math understandable was not the textbook but the teacher. I remember so many times looking at the next topic and thinking I would never be able to figure it out then the teacher would get up and walk us through the problems and everything would make perfect sense (and if they were really good they would show more than one way to do the problems--which is probably why more than one curriculum might be good).

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

You have some good points there. I was setting the curve in Geometry 2 in High School. Then I went to homeschooling for the next semester and just couldn't get it. I dropped out and took more Algebra instead. I was not used to struggling at all, so maybe if I had worked harder instead of giving up so easily... The thing is that I literally wrote letters to friends and slept through class, but I guess I must have been learning something. :tongue_smilie:

[Penelope]

Interesting discussion. I have watched the demo from MUS and liked what I saw, but for some reason have steered away from it. Maybe it is my avoidance of DVD teaching for the early years, I don't know.

 

I wouldn't base my decision on anyone's testimonials, though. I am sure EVERY curriculum has testimonials from people that like it. But they mean little. When someone writes that they got good standardized test scores from a certain program, I am not impressed, because I think standardized tests can be pretty dumbed-down, and it depends what test you are talking about. When someone says that their student is doing "fine" in college, what does that mean? Is that student a pre-med student taking many chemistry and physics classics, and two semesters of college calculus as a freshman, at an excellent university? Or is the student taking college algebra at xyz community college down the street? What was the math SAT score? etc. Even with that, there are some kids that will do okay despite problems with a program. And they may have a math mom or dad that can explain things and help them with problems from different angles.

 

I appreciate the varying opinions on this thread from those that have used it to the higher levels.

[PCA]

Thank you so much for posting this! We love MUS. We originally started with MUS because when I saw the demo dvd I realized this is what I was missing from my math education growing up!

 

Glad to know that we can use this program all the way through!

[titianmom]

I believe MUS works for some kids. I thoroughly enjoyed Steve's demos on the DVD. But because MUS doesn't review old lessons as much as spiral, I found that my daughter was forgetting how to do certain problems and would have to go WAY back into the book to figure it out all over again. We used MUS all the way thru Pre-Alg and toward the end of Pre-Alg it was only getting worse.

 

I switched to a spiral approach using CLE's math and we love it. This approach constantly reviews things learned so that the student doesn't forget.

 

No adult forgets how to add and subtract because they use it all the time, but most of us adults not in a math occupation forget how to do the Algebra, because we never use it outside of a school setting.

 

Plain and simple.

 

I love the Spiral approach and wished I'd had it when I was in school.

 

Kim

Edited May 29, 2009 by titianmom

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Interesting discussion. I have watched the demo from MUS and liked what I saw, but for some reason have steered away from it. Maybe it is my avoidance of DVD teaching for the early years, I don't know.

The DVD is supposed to teach you how to teach math. It is really not for the student to watch. But, it works that way if you so choose.

[WTMindy]

I have taught MUS's alg and geo program. It is not equal to other texts I have used (Foerster, Chalkdust, and Jacobs). Regardless of Demme's response or people's personal preferences, there is a difference in content and level of difficulty.

 

I'm not saying MUS won't get your student where they need to go. However, that is not the same as saying that they are equal.

 

I agree with this statement. I am a math teacher and I am currently using MUS pre-alg, alg, and geometry with different groups of students. I have found it to be good for students who struggle with math. There is a lot of practice for students and the presentation is clear and strong. However, there is NOT the rigor built in that other programs have. I am happy to know that he is now including the honors material in with the core, because I'm hoping that will solve that problem. I'm not saying that a good math student can't be successful with MUS because they obviously are, but as a math teacher, I see it lacking in rigor. And, what I mean by that is that the problems that are given teach the concepts, but don't necessarily give the hard types of problems. For example, in completing the square, they don't give the examples where there are the ugly fractions as coefficients. So, they know how to work completing the square problems, but the steps are more difficult when you are working with numbers that don't work out quite so evenly.

 

Having said that, I really think Steve Demme is a very sound math teacher and I like his approach to math. I'm very hopeful that having the honors problems in the books will be the missing component (as far as I'm concerned) to the program. I haven't seen them yet, however.

[razorbackmama]

I agree with this statement. I am a math teacher and I am currently using MUS pre-alg, alg, and geometry with different groups of students. I have found it to be good for students who struggle with math. There is a lot of practice for students and the presentation is clear and strong. However, there is NOT the rigor built in that other programs have. I am happy to know that he is now including the honors material in with the core, because I'm hoping that will solve that problem. I'm not saying that a good math student can't be successful with MUS because they obviously are, but as a math teacher, I see it lacking in rigor. And, what I mean by that is that the problems that are given teach the concepts, but don't necessarily give the hard types of problems. For example, in completing the square, they don't give the examples where there are the ugly fractions as coefficients. So, they know how to work completing the square problems, but the steps are more difficult when you are working with numbers that don't work out quite so evenly.

 

Having said that, I really think Steve Demme is a very sound math teacher and I like his approach to math. I'm very hopeful that having the honors problems in the books will be the missing component (as far as I'm concerned) to the program. I haven't seen them yet, however.

 

This is sort of what I was referring to earlier. I see LOTS AND LOTS of posts like this, but I'm wondering if a student who did awesome throughout MUS has actually found that it had NOT adequately prepared him, due to this "lack of rigor." I HAVE heard of that happening with other curriculums (which tells me a lot - more than the "I did great in advanced math after using xyz curriculum"), which is why I'm curious about if it has happened with MUS.

[Storm Bay]

I have followed with another complete yr of alg and another complete yr of geo (using the texts in my OP). My kids breezed through MUS. I do love how it gives them a solid foundation in the concepts. However, the other textbooks are not something that they can just step into and do the work. They have to learn the concepts at a much deeper level and how to apply in a way that requires much more comprehension of what they are doing beyond MUS's methods.

 

I will continue to use his alg and geo programs as pre-alg and pre-geo. They are excellent for building those foundations.

:iagree: You do have to go beyond to get that deeper understanding; but some will struggle with that. Some will get this intuitively. This is why I mentioned supplementing. We're not doing his Alg and Geo programs as we're going to try something else (my dd was tired of the approach after Zeta). For some, though, MUS will be it and they'll do fine. I'd be surprised if they became math majors in college, but it may have happened.

[Storm Bay]

This is very interesting information. I have heard the opposite: it's best to stick to one program as each has a foundation on which they build on higher concepts. If I'm not mistaken SWB says something similar in TWTM too. That said, I'm combining myself: MCP Math and Miquon.

 

 

I agree to stick with one program if you can; I use two at the same time. I must not have made that clear. :) Even with concept building, I think that no program has it all the best, not even my favourite ones. I've only dropped one midstream once (not including at the Algebra level), and that was Saxon. I do make a switch at the Algebra point, though, and probably will for all of mine. This is why we use MUS all the way to Zeta, even though we wanted more.

 

For those that don't want to spend as much time on math as we often do, you don't have to use a whole other program to do this, as I've already discussed (I hope in this thread--there are a few math threads I've been following where MUS has come up.)

Edited May 29, 2009 by Karin

[4wildberrys]

I agree with this statement. I am a math teacher and I am currently using MUS pre-alg, alg, and geometry with different groups of students. I have found it to be good for students who struggle with math. There is a lot of practice for students and the presentation is clear and strong. However, there is NOT the rigor built in that other programs have. I am happy to know that he is now including the honors material in with the core, because I'm hoping that will solve that problem. I'm not saying that a good math student can't be successful with MUS because they obviously are, but as a math teacher, I see it lacking in rigor. And, what I mean by that is that the problems that are given teach the concepts, but don't necessarily give the hard types of problems. For example, in completing the square, they don't give the examples where there are the ugly fractions as coefficients. So, they know how to work completing the square problems, but the steps are more difficult when you are working with numbers that don't work out quite so evenly.

 

Having said that, I really think Steve Demme is a very sound math teacher and I like his approach to math. I'm very hopeful that having the honors problems in the books will be the missing component (as far as I'm concerned) to the program. I haven't seen them yet, however.

 

As a math teacher, you know what you are talking about when it comes to rigor, obviously! :D But as a 'regular' homeschooling mom with no math degree or teaching credentials, I want to use a program that will 'be' the teacher, and so for us, even if MUS is not the MOST rigorous with messy problems, at least I know that it will do the job---and well. As a math teacher, you have the benefit of being able to discern the Best of the Best and the ability to evaluate 'rigor' and complexity. As a 'mom', I have to base my decisions on the reputations of programs and testimonials of people that have used it and succeeded---not to mention the assurances from the creator of the program. And I need a good answer key with ALL the problems worked out step by step so my kids can't get the better of me :tongue_smilie:

 

I just wanted to make sure that those of us who have chosen MUS can feel confident using it all the way through high school.

[8filltheheart]

As a math teacher, you know what you are talking about when it comes to rigor, obviously! :D But as a 'regular' homeschooling mom with no math degree or teaching credentials, I want to use a program that will 'be' the teacher, and so for us, even if MUS is not the MOST rigorous with messy problems, at least I know that it will do the job---and well. As a math teacher, you have the benefit of being able to discern the Best of the Best and the ability to evaluate 'rigor' and complexity. As a 'mom', I have to base my decisions on the reputations of programs and testimonials of people that have used it and succeeded---not to mention the assurances from the creator of the program. And I need a good answer key with ALL the problems worked out step by step so my kids can't get the better of me :tongue_smilie:

 

I just wanted to make sure that those of us who have chosen MUS can feel confident using it all the way through high school.

 

 

I'm not a math teacher, but I do have(had in terms of graduated) kids that are excellent math students that want(wanted) to pursue math/engineering degrees.

 

Could my oldest have managed to succeed at the level he currently is (A rising senior majoring in chemical engineering with 4.0 in all his math and engineering courses. I think either a 3.5 or 3.6 over all) if he had only used MUS? Maybe b/c he is a hard worker and will work until he understands, but really, I doubt it. He tackles the science in his engineering courses, not the math. He knows his math. He knows how to apply/use it. He did not get that from MUS. I know b/c I watched what he had to do to succeed in Foersters and Chalkdust. He never had to apply himself with MUS.

 

No one can take their own situation and apply it across the circumstances of others. I can simply re-tell from our own experience. I have 4 students that have gone through MUS's alg and geo and have also completed Foersters alg and either Jacobs or CD's geo. The pattern I described with my oldest has repeated with the next 3.

 

As far as complete solutions manuals and assistance, there are many options available. I cannot teach without a solutions manual b/c I am not that good at math. But solutions manuals do exist for CD and Foerster and Jacobs. I am not sure what other programs have complete solutions b/c those are the ones I am familiar with. I have never used Math Without Borders before, but I did order it for Foersters alg 2 b/c I am expecting and I don't want to always be available to work through the examples in the books in order to help my kids.

 

I know many families that have used MUS exclusively and have been more than satisfied. It is a small pool of people and all of them have gone on to pursue more liberal arts degrees. MUS certainly isn't going to be a detriment. But, conversely, it may leave your student struggling in higher science courses where things are messy.

[coralloyd]

When we went to the conference last year I had my dh go listen to the MUS presentation. My dh is VERY math minded, as a coder. When we got out of the session he said "This is what we are using."

Usually he lets me make all the choices, but with this he was very emphatic. For my dh EVERYthing has to make sense. He absoltuely loves the logical way MUS teaches.

I also love it because I am learning things I know, just in a better way. I am really looking forward to the higher levels so I can learn certain things for the first time :).