cross post: Steve Demme defends MUS!

[LizzyBee]

b/c I am expecting

 

I did not know this. Congratulations!

 

:party:

[8filltheheart]

I did not know this. Congratulations!

 

 

 

Thanks! We are all very excited (if not just a little surprised!) My oldest is getting married next April and his baby brother/sister will be there. I just wonder how many mother's of the groom have to have nursing accessible dresses??:D

[4wildberrys]

 

I know many families that have used MUS exclusively and have been more than satisfied. It is a small pool of people and all of them have gone on to pursue more liberal arts degrees. MUS certainly isn't going to be a detriment. But, conversely, it may leave your student struggling in higher science courses where things are messy.

 

 

This is why I included the 3+ pages of testimonials from people who did use MUS all the way---and whose kids are succeeding at higher sciences and maths in college and as careers. Just because the people you know who used MUS went on to liberal arts degrees doesn't extrapolate out to 'BECAUSE they used MUS' they didn't go into the math/sciences---KWIM?

 

There is no ONE math program that is going to work with ALL kids---but for those that like MUS and want to use it all the way through high school, I just wanted to make sure that they know there ARE plenty of people, professors etc. that think it is 'enough' and more than preparatory for higher math and sciences ;)

[razorbackmama]

This is why I included the 3+ pages of testimonials from people who did use MUS all the way---and whose kids are succeeding at higher sciences and maths in college and as careers. Just because the people you know who used MUS went on to liberal arts degrees doesn't extrapolate out to 'BECAUSE they used MUS' they didn't go into the math/sciences---KWIM?

 

There is no ONE math program that is going to work with ALL kids---but for those that like MUS and want to use it all the way through high school, I just wanted to make sure that they know there ARE plenty of people, professors etc. that think it is 'enough' and more than preparatory for higher math and sciences ;)

 

 

(Ack I tried quoting you quoting someone else, but it will only do your quote LOLOLOL.)

 

This is also why I'm anxious to hear from people for whom, in fact, MUS did not adequately prepare them. I keep hearing that it might not, it won't, etc., but I haven't even heard "it DID NOT." I HAVE heard that from other curriculums, so I know it does happen.

[8filltheheart]

 

This is also why I'm anxious to hear from people for whom, in fact, MUS did not adequately prepare them. I keep hearing that it might not, it won't, etc., but I haven't even heard "it DID NOT." I HAVE heard that from other curriculums, so I know it does happen.

 

That would be my assessment. MUS helped my kids make the leap from Horizons 6 to Foersters. It did not make them capable of doing the math in Foersters. They had to learn Foersters' material in order to actual be able to do the math. Conversely, kids that could do Foersters' alg would not have to learn the MUS material. They would simply be able to solve the problems.

 

Does that make sense?

 

But, since I am not sure that anyone REALLY wants any authentic critical assessment but simply affirming of the product, I will back out of conversation.

[razorbackmama]

I actually AM looking for critical assessments of MUS, but at the college level, not high school algebra. I have been on the fence on whether I want to continue with MUS for one of my kids who most likely could very well go into a mathy sort of field, and I don't want him to get into college and go, "WHOA, I was not prepared for this."

 

So that's what I'm actually looking for. Someone whose child went onto college after doing GREAT in MUS and discovering that it did NOT prepare them. 'Cuz I don't want to find out after the fact that it happens.:tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

I would assume that if a child who completed MUS Algebra had more to learn from a typical algebra course then a student who has completed MUS would most likely have difficulty completing a college math course with a prerequisite of four years of high school math (Algebra 1 not being considered high school math). It appears to be sound reasoning to me.

[HollyDay]

I would expect Mr. Demme to defend MUS. It is his program!! Of course he thinks it is the best. I would rather here science teachers/authors defend MUS. College math professors defend MUS. Engineers say how it prepared them for their field of study.

 

No one program is perfect. No single program is ideal for every child and every teacher. If MUS works well in your situation, great, use it with much satisfaction. If something else works better for your situation, then use that with much satisfaction. Just dont blast the rest of us for choosing a different program

[8filltheheart]

Just dont blast the rest of us for choosing a different program

 

I don't know if this was directed toward me or not. My intent was not to blast anyone for choosing MUS. It was simply to offer our experience which is quite different from the perspective of the entire thread.

 

My POV is that I would much rather have a realistic overview of what I choose than a single sided perspective. I have chosen to use lots of materials over the yrs that have worked well for our family and have been absolute disasters for others that we know and vice-versa. (French Prep was a bust here but many people on this board love it.)

 

I made my comment about backing out of the thread b/c the OP obviously desires this thread to be one of pure support for MUS instead of one of personal experiences.

[Lovedtodeath]

I didn't think that anyone was blasting anyone else.:confused: I will refrain from quoting, because someone might want to use the edit feature, and it wouldn't be fair to take that away. (I hate it when that happens to me.)

[lovemyboys]

Thanks! We are all very excited (if not just a little surprised!) My oldest is getting married next April and his baby brother/sister will be there. I just wonder how many mother's of the groom have to have nursing accessible dresses??:D

 

:lol:

 

One of my favorite homeschooling moms, she had 11th* when oldest was getting married. She made it work and still looked wonderful.

 

* a couple were adopted from impoverised orphanages overseas

[Storm Bay]

Me too. I am going to have to make these decisions by next Spring and while I have heard a few people say that MUS isn't rigorous I have yet to hear the parent of a college student say their child was unprepared due to MUS. Maybe everyone switches or supplements or only goes into the humanities? I don't know. :confused:

 

My son is really not mathy. He is an artist and a writer but he loves, loves, loves, physics and astronomy. So he will either do something related to virtual environments (which include a lot of physics anyway) or something related to astrophysics. He is going to need the math but it isn't his strong suit and I am trying to figure out if he will need to switch to a different math program or if MUS will prepare him well enough.

 

 

Are you doing MUS because your ds isn't mathy, or have you been using it all along and he isn't mathy? If he's going to go into Physics I would defnitely incorporate another math along with MUS if it's been helping. Physics is a special kind of thinking, but it definitely involves a lot of math. If your ds is visual spatial, it could be that his math strengths will come out with Geometry, etc. I would work toward having a more rigourous math program, but you could add something fun. If he's having trouble with fractions or decimals, you may wish to add something like Life of Fred for those (LoF is on our want to get list for this year because of the story idea and how it ties math into life).

 

This thread really isn't about other maths a lot, so you may wish to study other math threads. Also, you may wish to go to the high school forum to learn what other Physics-oriented dc have done for math. There are many suggestions for another thread :).

[Storm Bay]

I do expect ds will excel in Geometry. I feel like MUS is laying an excellent foundation. My only concern is if the higher level programs, now with the honors portions added in, will set him up to do well in College math courses.

 

 

I suggest adding something such as Life of Fred (my second is going to do LoF Algebra as I've heard so many good things about it and she is also one who will probably excel in Geometry). You may wish to start LoF for pre-Algebra, which are the decimals one and the fractions one. You might want to combine it with MUS in the higher levels, but that could get pricey. I think it's good to switch things up a bit somewhere, although it's also good to be able to stick with something in those elementary/middle school grades if it's working. The risk of using one method all the way through is of getting used to only one way and struggling with something different. Plus the word problem thing is important to me. My middle one needs the most work with the linguistic aspects of math.

[Guest mamanlait]

A Glowing Report: We have tried 3 other Math curriculums in the 3 years we've been homeschooling. I think MUS is in line with Classical Education because there is a big focus on memorizing facts before moving ahead (and also understanding them). For a child who thinks concretely, this curriculum is a dream come true. Many people have recommended that we use 2 different styles of math education (ie. Singapore plus Math U See) but I think MUS with Friday game day can't be beat. For a child who thinks more abstractly, a different curriculum might be a more suitable fit but I'm actually scared to leave MUS given the fact that my child has caught up and is now ahead after just 15 months of using it AND says that she's GOOD AT MATH!:)

[asta]

There are several posts on the Yahoo MUS board discussing how well their children are doing in college after having used MUS.

 

 

a

[4wildberrys]

There are several posts on the Yahoo MUS board discussing how well their children are doing in college after having used MUS.

 

 

a

 

You beat me to this! :001_smile: I was just going to post the same thing----MANY posts at the Yahoo group from parents who used MUS all the way with great success! Their main point was that not only was it "enough" and 'college prep' and enough for great SAT/ACT scores, but the colleges did not care WHICH program they used. At all. Whew! I am so glad to hear this.

[asta]

You beat me to this! :001_smile: I was just going to post the same thing----MANY posts at the Yahoo group from parents who used MUS all the way with great success! Their main point was that not only was it "enough" and 'college prep' and enough for great SAT/ACT scores, but the colleges did not care WHICH program they used. At all. Whew! I am so glad to hear this.

 

Someone on that group intimated what I think is a very salient point: people have different ideas regarding what "college prep" actually means.

 

For some people, cp means "my child has a firm foundation for K-12 and can now go forward into a college level math course" (eg: College Algebra).

 

For other people, cp means "my child has done/understands mathematics to a point wherein he/she is able to test out of some college math courses."

 

I see these as two entirely different goals, and that the latter is not the definition of "college prep".

 

It is my own opinion, and many others will not agree, but I think my kid should do high school level work in high school; he is just a kid, and there will be plenty of time later for him to do college level work (like, in college). I understand that some children crave higher and higher levels of work. That's great. My kid does too, in some areas.

 

But I think it is a fine line between offering learning opportunities to a bright kid and inadvertently (or advertently) having them complete college whilst in high school. I just don't think that most are developmentally ready to fully digest the information, no matter how bright they are.

 

JMO

 

 

a

[4wildberrys]

Someone on that group intimated what I think is a very salient point: people have different ideas regarding what "college prep" actually means.

 

For some people, cp means "my child has a firm foundation for K-12 and can now go forward into a college level math course" (eg: College Algebra).

 

For other people, cp means "my child has done/understands mathematics to a point wherein he/she is able to test out of some college math courses."

 

I see these as two entirely different goals, and that the latter is not the definition of "college prep".

 

It is my own opinion, and many others will not agree, but I think my kid should do high school level work in high school; he is just a kid, and there will be plenty of time later for him to do college level work (like, in college). I understand that some children crave higher and higher levels of work. That's great. My kid does too, in some areas.

 

But I think it is a fine line between offering learning opportunities to a bright kid and inadvertently (or advertently) having them complete college whilst in high school. I just don't think that most are developmentally ready to fully digest the information, no matter how bright they are.

 

JMO

 

 

a

 

 

:iagree:---100%

[Storm Bay]

. I just don't think that most are developmentally ready to fully digest the information, no matter how bright they are.

 

JMO

 

 

 

This is a great point. I had one ready for Algebra at 11 who did it with a 90 percent average. At 13, I had her do Algebra 1 again with a different course because her brain is still developing. She is definitely digesting a lot more this time.

 

The truly math gifted, which are very few, are developmentally ready early; most great math discoveries are done by the time people are in their early 20s. For Physics, it's usually by 30. I'm not sure that I have any dc in that category, even though they are all mathy. My second one is not going to start Algebra at 11 because I now recognize (learning curve) that she is too immature to handle long, proofy problems and that the logic "centre" of her brain hasn't reached that point yet. So she's doing some other math in between everything before Algebra and Algebra. She's been done MUS Zeta for months, and has finished SM 6. This math is challenging her in new ways and making her think about it in a deeper, new fashion. Then I'll have her do Algebra 1 twice, once each with 2 different programs. Depending on her rate of learning, that will make her 14 by the time she does hs geometry, which is the same as the local ps honours program. At least, that's the plan. We can't just keep rehashing everything up to but not including Algebra indefinitely.

[Caroline4kids]

Then I'll have her do Algebra 1 twice, once each with 2 different programs. Depending on her rate of learning, that will make her 14 by the time she does hs geometry, which is the same as the local ps honours program. At least, that's the plan. We can't just keep rehashing everything up to but not including Algebra indefinitely.

 

:iagree:

 

My son is the same way. He did the two LOF books, but wasn't ready for Algebra so we backed him up and he is going through MUS Epsilon (almost done) and then Zeta. I have both Systematic math 6- Algebra 2 and LOF Beginning Algebra. I plan on using both. I may do MUS too if he wants to.

 

I think that whole brain thing is important.:) You have to do somthing each day and taking different approaches keeps things from getting boring.

[johnandtinagilbert]

IMO math facts are not a strength of MUS. Understanding concepts is what MUS is all about.

:tongue_smilie:

:iagree: The program didn't make mine learn their facts any faster, but it certainly helped us all understand, "Why?" I am a math mom, but I generally don't have a clue why I do something. MUS has helped us with that.

I also find MUS has worked best for us in conjunction with Singapore. I do find Singapore more difficult and with more review, so our plan is always to complete a MUS level, then finish a Singapore too. This helps with teaching, understanding, time management, gives the spiral and immersion methods fully and allows for us to cover a variety of topics throughout the year. I can also say, using MUS has given a boost in our understanding of Singapore's Challenging Word problems. It seems like the ones who have the foundation in MUS have a much easier time making their way through word problems.

 

Since I couldn't make up my mind for my non-math ds and Algebra, here's what we're doing:

 

MUS Algebra for the summer and into fall. Reading Life of Fred and Jacob's for a more literary explanation of topics, then rounding out with Lial's for him and Dolciani for his ds (who is a math wiz). I plan on taking 2 years to complete Algebra for them both, as he is entering 7th grade and she is entering 6th. I figure, since they like Mr. Steve and his style, it would help me to let them watch his explanations, giving them a firm foundation in Algebra. Then they get the next step with a different author, showing me they can apply Algebra using a text that will more similar to the styles they will see in college. Since there is no rush for time, I am sure this will give us all peace and understanding in Algebra.

 

I just need to buy LoF used...anyone selling now and switching to MUS? lol!

[Spy Car]

I haven't used MUS. I only know it from samples and the "Demo" they send out on request. But from that limited perspective I'm really impressed at how Steve Demme makes concepts clear. That's the mark of a great teacher to me.

 

And, hoping to not have this sound like a back-handed compliment, it seems to me that children who are not necessarily "math gifted" could especially benefit from MUS. And that's valuable to have in the mix of offerings. A highly-mathematical child could probably use any competent program and do reasonably well in college.

 

But I'd bet a lot of kids who would really struggle with math are helped immensely with Steve Demmes's program.

 

I don't believe MUS would have been a very good fit for *my* son. But if I had a child who needed this very well-explained mastery type approach, I imagine I might be sending Steve love-letters.

 

There are many needs to be met in terms of how children learn, and it seems to me that Steve Demme filled a huge hole in the math offering for children. I salute him for that!

 

Bill

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'm not a math teacher, but I do have(had in terms of graduated) kids that are excellent math students that want(wanted) to pursue math/engineering degrees.

 

Could my oldest have managed to succeed at the level he currently is (A rising senior majoring in chemical engineering with 4.0 in all his math and engineering courses. I think either a 3.5 or 3.6 over all) if he had only used MUS? Maybe b/c he is a hard worker and will work until he understands, but really, I doubt it. He tackles the science in his engineering courses, not the math. He knows his math. He knows how to apply/use it. He did not get that from MUS. I know b/c I watched what he had to do to succeed in Foersters and Chalkdust. He never had to apply himself with MUS.

 

This is exactly why I'll use it to teach what I can't or simply don't want to (understanding that was not Mr. Steve's intention) and then follow up with that "rigor." ;) I watched my math prone eldest son do exactly this over the summer when he used the MUS pre-algebra....wonderfully easy, but no challenge for him.

When I look for curricula I tend to seek out advice from those I find like minded in curricula choices and educational philosophies. After coming to this board since 2001ish, I have an idea of who my veteran peers, in as much as educational philospohy likemindedness, have to say and have found this board to be consistent for me in that fashion. (Thanks to the millionth power!)

 

I switched to MUS for my only non-math ds b/c it was deemed light by the above mentioned peers. He likes the approach, but says himself that he needs additional spiral approach b/c he forgets too much. He prefers, are you ready for this, Saxon. He likes the constant review. So, you can see by my other post in this thread (and I think I neglected to mention Saxon as his MUS companion (not Singapore) that for us, MUS is a part of our whole math program.

 

Unfortunately for my family, we don't have the finances to pay for college, so we are trying to have our kids Ready for college classes beginning in 10th grade. I realize some people would rather keep them home, heck I would too. We'll enter slowly through dual enrollment, but by 11th grade, I hope that all my dc will be full time enrolled at the local college, where they will get a high school diploma and an A.A. Sometimes, a family needs the rigor b/c they don't have the option of taking it slow and painless. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn't, so I have to make Certain they are ready when the time comes. My confidence to make sure involves MUS, just not exclusively. I can't put down the program, but after looking at Algebra (w/ honors) and Dolciani, I can definatley see there is a difference in rigor. My encouragement is that each of us ask ourselves how much rigor we need. I tend to err on the side of caution, so my little darlings will be working hard now, and I pray it will pay off abundantly later.

 

I want to add, the non-mathy ds wants to be a herpatologist...so he Needs heavy math. Otherwise, I would probably let him glide through with MUS only.

 

Thanks to the OP for posting this, though. It does remind me how worthwhile MUS is and that there is value for us in it.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I have to give it up to him. He is an Excellent teacher. From his teaching, I have understand the why behind math like never before. Thanks, Mr. D :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

This is a great point. I had one ready for Algebra at 11 who did it with a 90 percent average. At 13, I had her do Algebra 1 again with a different course because her brain is still developing. She is definitely digesting a lot more this time.

 

The truly math gifted, which are very few, are developmentally ready early; most great math discoveries are done by the time people are in their early 20s. For Physics, it's usually by 30. I'm not sure that I have any dc in that category, even though they are all mathy. My second one is not going to start Algebra at 11 because I now recognize (learning curve) that she is too immature to handle long, proofy problems and that the logic "centre" of her brain hasn't reached that point yet. So she's doing some other math in between everything before Algebra and Algebra. She's been done MUS Zeta for months, and has finished SM 6. This math is challenging her in new ways and making her think about it in a deeper, new fashion. Then I'll have her do Algebra 1 twice, once each with 2 different programs. Depending on her rate of learning, that will make her 14 by the time she does hs geometry, which is the same as the local ps honours program. At least, that's the plan. We can't just keep rehashing everything up to but not including Algebra indefinitely.

 

I like your thinking! SOunds like my plan for my 11 and 10 y.o. :)

[Storm Bay]

When I look for curricula I tend to seek out advice from those I find like minded in curricula choices and educational philosophies.

 

 

I have found something similar, over the past 5 or 6 years. There are certain people who usually suggest things that work well for us. However, it's not always the same people for every subject or necessarily for each of my dc. There are people I respect for other forms of advice and suggestions whose curricula choices have been a disaster for us (one example is the person who originally motivated me to try Jacob's math a few years ago--she's not here anymore but she had some great insight.)