"My husbands keeper"

[Peek a Boo]

.... What's to stop her, out of anger from being rebuffed, to accuse him of some sort of inappropriate gesture. A man ...has to be very careful of no appearance of impropriety, and even an accusation can ruin his career and reputation, even if he is the most upright person. Men haven't cornered the market on being a low-life pig.

 

:iagree:

 

and i took out "in the ministry." -It applies to ANY man.....

 

eta: ....or woman :)

[Audrey]

I'm not speaking for Mindy, but my concern with the man going to lunch with the young woman would be this: Let's say she makes a pass and he says no. What's to stop her, out of anger from being rebuffed, to accuse him of some sort of inappropriate gesture. A man in the ministry has to be very careful of no appearance of impropriety, and even an accusation can ruin his career and reputation, even if he is the most upright person. Men haven't cornered the market on being a low-life pig.

 

 

Ah, now THAT I can see, and will agree with you on that. But, that wasn't what was said in the post I quoted. That post was responding, still, to the cheating possibilities -- or at least, that was how I read it.

[LisaNY]

I have to disagree with that perspective. It is still implying that a man cannot remain faithful. So what if this young woman finds him attractive? So what, even, if she makes a pass at him?

 

It takes two to tango. And, NO always means NO.

 

A man is no less capable of saying no, than is a woman. Men are not dogs, even if a b*tch in heat rolls over for him. Men are thinking human beings, who IF they really are faithful, are not swayed by the "temptations" another woman may hang out there for him.

 

I have been fortunate enough to know more than few honest, faithful men in my life. I'm 100% certain that they weren't the ONLY men in this world like that.

 

To clarify - I was in no way implying that Mindy's dh would not remain faithful. My concern is w/the young lady, and how she may feel about him.

Edited May 13, 2009 by LisaNY

[phathui5]

My husband is a worship leader at our church and sometimes does music practices at peoples' homes or in our garage. Sometimes there's a lot of people, sometimes it's just a singer (usually a female). My SIL was telling me that I need to insist for him schedule practices only at our house and be there at all times. I think she's being obsessive.

 

I think that as a worship leader, being alone with a female singer puts him in a bad position.

 

My husband does worship for our church and he will either have practice at church, at our house, at someone's house with me along, or with a group.

[Blueridge]

We joined a church years ago that was still recovering from a 'scandal', involving their music minister and a singer (both married) who had become involved and run away together. A very sad and certainly unexpected thing. It was later that all the private problems of the two came to light, which was also sad and unexpected. So I know the impossible happens (not implying that it would happen to any of you ladies, just telling of our situation). In some ways, then, I may unconsciously be my husband's *keeper*. We avoid situations that might be uncomfortable for him, like a situation last year. His (former) company was sponsoring a company picnic/game day/swim party...no spouses...why do companies do this?? He declined to go, to honor me, and because all the co-workers would be in a non-professional, all-too-relaxed state of mind. It was his decision to not put himself in an awkward place with them, some of whom were single and very friendly ;). I was thankful he made that choice. He says that when he is out in public, he 'has his guard up', but when we're together he can let his guard down and relax because my presence is a sort of safety net. Let's face it...lots of men and women have personal issues that affect their behavior and thinking. Necklines are getting lower, skirts and shorts are getting shorter, men are visual creations by design and sometimes just 'unaware'. Sometimes they are too kind. This is not an excuse for their infidelity, but sometimes people act inappropriately. Am I being his *keeper* by touching up my make up, spritzing perfume and dressing for him each day? Am I being his *keeper* by holding his hand and smiling at him as we are passing by a scantly-clad gal at the store? We are two people in a mutual relationship. Both of us work at being what the other needs. I think the term *keeper* sounds manipulative and negative. I do, however, think we are wise as women to not be naive about the potential dangers that we and our dear husbands face each day. Instead of being a jealous-hearted nag like a few friends I know, I want to be all that my dh wants me to be. I communicate. I admire. I compliment. I appreciate. I educate. And last but not least... I'm keepin' that love tank full...it's a tough job but somebody has to do it. :D

Ginger

[LisaNY]

I had this interesting conversation with my SIL a while ago and it still bugs me for some reason.

 

She was saying that our role as wives is to keep our husbands out of temptation. We are not to trust them to be alone with any young woman in any circumstances, even if they are somehow related.

 

Her reasoning is that men are weak and if tempted will forget themselves and "plunge into sin" (her words). :001_huh:

 

Furthermore, she is saying that all this is based on the Bible. When I asked for specific verses, she said she'll get back to me with that. It's been a couple of weeks already.

 

Honestly, I cannot imagine putting my husband on a leash. I love him and trust him. I cannot imagine telling him that he can't go somewhere because "I told him so".

 

Am I naive?

 

I find this to be spot on: (Gary Neuman is a marriage counselor, and he wrote the book "The Truth About Cheating".)

 

What's the number one reason men cheat? Ninety-two percent of men said it wasn't primarily about the sex. "The majority said it was an emotional disconnection, specifically a sense of feeling underappreciated. A lack of thoughtful gestures," Gary says. "Men are very emotional beings. They just don't look like that. Or they don't seem like that. Or they don't tell you that."

 

Josh says he cheated on his wife, Jennifer, because he felt underappreciated at home and started feeling insecure. "That insecurity was really the catalyst," he says. "I didn't feel comfortable going to the one person in the world I should be going to, which is my wife."

 

With daily worries like bills, children and chores, Gary says it's easy for couples to drift away from appreciating one another like they should. Gary says the other woman often makes the man feel better about himself. "[she] makes them feel different. Makes them feel appreciated, admired," he says. "Men look strong, look powerful and capable. But on the inside, they're insecure like everybody else. They're searching and looking for somebody to build them up to make them feel valued."

[Paula in PA]

I find this to be spot on: (Gary Neuman is a marriage counselor, and he wrote the book "The Truth About Cheating".)

 

What's the number one reason men cheat? Ninety-two percent of men said it wasn't primarily about the sex. "The majority said it was an emotional disconnection, specifically a sense of feeling underappreciated. A lack of thoughtful gestures," Gary says. "Men are very emotional beings. They just don't look like that. Or they don't seem like that. Or they don't tell you that."

 

Josh says he cheated on his wife, Jennifer, because he felt underappreciated at home and started feeling insecure. "That insecurity was really the catalyst," he says. "I didn't feel comfortable going to the one person in the world I should be going to, which is my wife."

 

With daily worries like bills, children and chores, Gary says it's easy for couples to drift away from appreciating one another like they should. Gary says the other woman often makes the man feel better about himself. "[she] makes them feel different. Makes them feel appreciated, admired," he says. "Men look strong, look powerful and capable. But on the inside, they're insecure like everybody else. They're searching and looking for somebody to build them up to make them feel valued."

 

Sorry, NO. People, men and women, cheat because they are SELFISH! Look at what that guy is saying. HE felt this, HE felt that. WHAT ABOUT HIS WIFE? Why wasn't he thinking about her, why wasn't he trying to work this out with her? Because all he was thinking and caring about was how HE felt! So he took the easy way out. That's what an affair really is, the easier choice! No thinking or trying to solve problems involved. There is never a valid "excuse" for infidelity. Not ever! You always, always have other choices.

 

As far as the last paragraph goes, I'm sorry, but it works BOTH ways. It shouldn't be just about her building him up, it needs to be both of them building each other up, being more concerned about the other than themselves!

 

Just as an FYI, I've seen that quote before and showed it to my dh. He said it's a bunch of bull, that the guy is just trying to give guys excuses to do what they want and blame it on their wives. He said he should know, since those are very similar to the excuses he used to tell himself to justify what he did to us. Excuses he now admits were wrong. He is the first to admit that his acts were done out of extreme selfishness, that all cheating is. He knew he had other choices and chose to ignore them because that was easier.

 

We've been through a lot because of his choice and we've both learned a lot as well. What I stated above is some of it. This is some more: Any problems a marriage has is jointly shared, both people are 50% responsible for it. But the choice to cheat is only the responsibility of the cheater. Because he/she had other choices they could have made.

[LisaNY]

Sorry, NO. People, men and women, cheat because they are SELFISH! Look at what that guy is saying. HE felt this, HE felt that. WHAT ABOUT HIS WIFE? Why wasn't he thinking about her, why wasn't he trying to work this out with her? Because all he was thinking and caring about was how HE felt! So he took the easy way out. That's what an affair really is, the easier choice! No thinking or trying to solve problems involved. There is never a valid "excuse" for infidelity. Not ever! You always, always have other choices.

 

As far as the last paragraph goes, I'm sorry, but it works BOTH ways. It shouldn't be just about her building him up, it needs to be both of them building each other up, being more concerned about the other than themselves!

 

Just as an FYI, I've seen that quote before and showed it to my dh. He said it's a bunch of bull, that the guy is just trying to give guys excuses to do what they want and blame it on their wives. He said he should know, since those are very similar to the excuses he used to tell himself to justify what he did to us. Excuses he now admits were wrong. He is the first to admit that his acts were done out of extreme selfishness, that all cheating is. He knew he had other choices and chose to ignore them because that was easier.

 

We've been through a lot because of his choice and we've both learned a lot as well. What I stated above is some of it. This is some more: Any problems a marriage has is jointly shared, both people are 50% responsible for it. But the choice to cheat is only the responsibility of the cheater. Because he/she had other choices they could have made.

 

I completely agree that it takes TWO to make a marriage work. Both building one another up. I also agree that the decision to cheat rests solely upon the shoulders of the cheater.

 

I actually watched that show on why men cheat. Understandably, many, many women were upset by the counselor's claims. However, there was story after story of women changing their attitude towards their husbands, and their husbands responding in very positive ways. So many women said the same thing - that the "other woman" wasn't even that attractive. Which brought up a discussion about the fact that men do not always cheat because of the s*x, but because of the affirmation they receive.

 

I don't claim to know what happened to you, personally. These are stories of people who were in a situation where the husband cheated, or was tempted to cheat, and they were helped by the ideas put forth in the book.

[Nestof3]

Sorry, NO. People, men and women, cheat because they are SELFISH! Look at what that guy is saying. HE felt this, HE felt that. WHAT ABOUT HIS WIFE? Why wasn't he thinking about her, why wasn't he trying to work this out with her? Because all he was thinking and caring about was how HE felt! So he took the easy way out. That's what an affair really is, the easier choice! No thinking or trying to solve problems involved. There is never a valid "excuse" for infidelity. Not ever! You always, always have other choices.

 

As far as the last paragraph goes, I'm sorry, but it works BOTH ways. It shouldn't be just about her building him up, it needs to be both of them building each other up, being more concerned about the other than themselves!

 

Just as an FYI, I've seen that quote before and showed it to my dh. He said it's a bunch of bull, that the guy is just trying to give guys excuses to do what they want and blame it on their wives. He said he should know, since those are very similar to the excuses he used to tell himself to justify what he did to us. Excuses he now admits were wrong. He is the first to admit that his acts were done out of extreme selfishness, that all cheating is. He knew he had other choices and chose to ignore them because that was easier.

 

We've been through a lot because of his choice and we've both learned a lot as well. What I stated above is some of it. This is some more: Any problems a marriage has is jointly shared, both people are 50% responsible for it. But the choice to cheat is only the responsibility of the cheater. Because he/she had other choices they could have made.

 

I actually agree that I don't think this guy is being honest. I have met couples where I really felt the guy just couldn't be content with one woman, therefore he cheated.

 

I also really think, though, that men and women want essentially what they wanted when they were looking for a spouse in the first place -- physical intimacy, comfort, connection, someone to make them feel special and loved and so forth. I don't think those needs just go away when one is married. I do think a person can be overly focused on one of the needs -- like caring more about physical satisfaction more than any others or caring more about having their monetary and housing needs taken care of over any of the others -- but I think most people desire their spouse to fulfill the same balance that led them to seeking a spouse in the first place.

 

I therefore think that when too many of these are lacking, the person returns to the pre-married state one was in before -- looking for someone to fill those needs. I think this is what leads to most affairs.

 

Yes, it's selfish to focus on ones needs -- but if the person didn't have those needs to begin with, the person never would have sought a wife/husband.

 

Again, some people are just messed up and act like pigs -- some people treat their spouses horribly and so on. I'm just clarifying why I think most people go looking elsewhere. It's the same reason they went looking in the first place.

[LisaNY]

I actually agree that I don't think this guy is being honest. I have met couples where I really felt the guy just couldn't be content with one woman, therefore he cheated.

 

I also really think, though, that men and women want essentially what they wanted when they were looking for a spouse in the first place -- physical intimacy, comfort, connection, someone to make them feel special and loved and so forth. I don't think those needs just go away when one is married. I do think a person can be overly focused on one of the needs -- like caring more about physical satisfaction more than any others or caring more about having their monetary and housing needs taken care of over any of the others -- but I think most people desire their spouse to fulfill the same balance that led them to seeking a spouse in the first place.

 

I therefore think that when too many of these are lacking, the person returns to the pre-married state one was in before -- looking for someone to fill those needs. I think this is what leads to most affairs.

 

Yes, it's selfish to focus on ones needs -- but if the person didn't have those needs to begin with, the person never would have sought a wife/husband.

 

Again, some people are just messed up and act like pigs -- some people treat their spouses horribly and so on. I'm just clarifying why I think most people go looking elsewhere. It's the same reason they went looking in the first place.

 

:iagree:

[Paula in PA]

But again, it's about HIM needing her to change in order for HIM to feel good about HIMSELF and not cheat. That is selfishness at work. Why didn't he go to her and try to talk it out? Why not suggest councelling? Why didn't he consider that maybe she was going through a rough time and needed his support? I never suggested it was always about s*x. I know that's absolutely not true. But it is very much about the cheater being selfish and only thinking about themselves. Unless he changes, too, it may very well happen again! Nothing I've seen or heard about this book indicates that the cheater is encouraged to make any changes, only the wife. Unless he grows up and considers her as much as she is supposed to consider him, nothing really changes. That is my problem with this book, and several others of the same nature. Both people have to make the committment to work on and change what went wrong in their marriage before the affair, and also with themselves. It cannot be just one of them.

[Paula in PA]

I actually agree that I don't think this guy is being honest. I have met couples where I really felt the guy just couldn't be content with one woman, therefore he cheated.

 

I also really think, though, that men and women want essentially what they wanted when they were looking for a spouse in the first place -- physical intimacy, comfort, connection, someone to make them feel special and loved and so forth. I don't think those needs just go away when one is married. I do think a person can be overly focused on one of the needs -- like caring more about physical satisfaction more than any others or caring more about having their monetary and housing needs taken care of over any of the others -- but I think most people desire their spouse to fulfill the same balance that led them to seeking a spouse in the first place.

 

I therefore think that when too many of these are lacking, the person returns to the pre-married state one was in before -- looking for someone to fill those needs. I think this is what leads to most affairs.

 

Yes, it's selfish to focus on ones needs -- but if the person didn't have those needs to begin with, the person never would have sought a wife/husband.

 

Again, some people are just messed up and act like pigs -- some people treat their spouses horribly and so on. I'm just clarifying why I think most people go looking elsewhere. It's the same reason they went looking in the first place.

 

I don't disagree with you as to the common excuse given. But it is the fact that they are focused only on their needs that is the problem. And having those needs does not, in any way, give them the right to cheat. In the end, that is what matters. Not what wonderful excuse they've come up with to justify to themselves what they're doing. And it is just an excuse. I don't care how strong the supposed 'need' is. They have other choices. No one put a gun to their head and made them do it. By making excuses for them, which you seem to be doing, you are basically condoning it in my mind. I hope I am misreading that. What it comes down to, for me, is that there is NEVER any valid reason, I don't care what they come up with, for a person to cheat on their spouse. Because they have other choices they could make.

[LisaNY]

I don't disagree with you as to the common excuse given. But it is the fact that they are focused only on their needs that is the problem. And having those needs does not, in any way, give them the right to cheat.

 

I don't think Dawn is saying that these things give a man a *right* to cheat, but these things can be *reasons* for a man cheating. I think we can agree that it takes a lot to make a marriage work - mutual love, respect, kindness, etc. When one or both spouses neglect those important areas, both can succumb to temptation. Why? Because we are not robots - we are fallible human beings. To deny that fact defies logic, IMO.

 

[Paula in PA]

I don't think Dawn is saying that these things give a man a *right* to cheat, but these things can be *reasons* for a man cheating. I think we can agree that it takes a lot to make a marriage work - mutual love, respect, kindness, etc. When one or both spouses neglect those important areas, both can succumb to temptation. Why? Because we are not robots - we are fallible human beings. To deny that fact defies logic, IMO.

 

 

I don't disagree that we are fallible. I do disagree that both could "succumb to temtation" because I didn't. It never even crossed my mind. As for reasons, my dh had his "reasons", which he readily admits were, in the end, nothing but excuses he used to justify to himself his actions and keep his guilt at bay. That is what the "reasons" really are, justifications to stave off guilt. Can they have some basis in reality? Of course, but that does not mean one has to make the choice to cheat. They could do the right and honorable thing and actually try to work it out with their spouse. Or they could leave. There is simply no valid, justifiable "reason" to cheat on the person you made a committment of fidelity to on your wedding day. You can come up with "reasons" all day, but that does not make the act of infidelity any less the act of supreme selfishness it is. Because, again, there is always another choice that could have been made.

[OnTheBrink]

Paula, the majority of this thread is about why MEN cheat. I don't think we've even discussed why women do. Of course, needs need to be met both ways. I don't think anyone here is saying they don't.

 

Men are wired differently than women and the needs are different. Not more important, but different. If a man isn't treated well by his wife, he's tempted to look elsewhere to get his needs met, and women do the same thing, just that her needs are not the same as his, necessarily. How many times have we seen on this board lamentations that dhs don't clean up after themselves, or they seem to miss seeing something or noticing something that we women find important? Yet, a man couldn't care less if you notice his new haircut or leave your towel on the floor (generally, here). What I'm saying is, love and respect to a man looks different than it does to a woman, and often women miss that (I am guilty, too--my high horse rode off into the sunset) and aren't open to a discussion about it or just plainly don't think their dh is important enough to listen to. Men, being human and fallible (as well as women), can be tempted to get their needs met elsewhere. It is his choice to cheat? Yes, it absolutely is. He's completely responsible for that. But, men don't cheat if they're happy at home (unless they're low-life pigs in general and despite my own EX and that experience, I don't believe men are that at all). The reasons why they're unhappy could be the result of a legion of variables, some caused by himself and his lack of ability and maturity to communicate or some caused by a wife who's a shrew, or millions of other reasons.

 

 

You (in general) can't say an affair happens simply because of X factor. It doesn't even make sense that a happily married man would get up one day and say, "hey, I'm having a great hair day; I think I'll go boink some hot babe, wife and family be ****ed!" I think most men love their wives, love their families and don't want to do anything to jeopardize it. I think marital breakdowns are generally caused or contributed to by both sides, to some degree. That's not to say it gives a man or woman the RIGHT to cheat. It doesn't. But it's naive to say that when a marriage gets to the point where one or both parties just don't care enough to work through the issues, that the breakdown occurred only by one person. At the point where a man or woman decides to cheat is where the line is drawn, AFAIC, and the blame for the affair is theirs alone.

 

I hope this made sense. Affair=not the responsibility of the uncheating spouse. Marital breakdown=responsibility of both, but not necessarily equal responsibility.

[LisaNY]

Paula, the majority of this thread is about why MEN cheat. I don't think we've even discussed why women do. Of course, needs need to be met both ways. I don't think anyone here is saying they don't.

 

Men are wired differently than women and the needs are different. Not more important, but different. If a man isn't treated well by his wife, he's tempted to look elsewhere to get his needs met, and women do the same thing, just that her needs are not the same as his, necessarily. How many times have we seen on this board lamentations that dhs don't clean up after themselves, or they seem to miss seeing something or noticing something that we women find important? Yet, a man couldn't care less if you notice his new haircut or leave your towel on the floor (generally, here). What I'm saying is, love and respect to a man looks different than it does to a woman, and often women miss that (I am guilty, too--my high horse rode off into the sunset) and aren't open to a discussion about it or just plainly don't think their dh is important enough to listen to. Men, being human and fallible (as well as women), can be tempted to get their needs met elsewhere. It is his choice to cheat? Yes, it absolutely is. He's completely responsible for that. But, men don't cheat if they're happy at home (unless they're low-life pigs in general and despite my own EX and that experience, I don't believe men are that at all). The reasons why they're unhappy could be the result of a legion of variables, some caused by himself and his lack of ability and maturity to communicate or some caused by a wife who's a shrew, or millions of other reasons.

 

 

You (in general) can't say an affair happens simply because of X factor. It doesn't even make sense that a happily married man would get up one day and say, "hey, I'm having a great hair day; I think I'll go boink some hot babe, wife and family be ****ed!" I think most men love their wives, love their families and don't want to do anything to jeopardize it. I think marital breakdowns are generally caused or contributed to by both sides, to some degree. That's not to say it gives a man or woman the RIGHT to cheat. It doesn't. But it's naive to say that when a marriage gets to the point where one or both parties just don't care enough to work through the issues, that the breakdown occurred only by one person. At the point where a man or woman decides to cheat is where the line is drawn, AFAIC, and the blame for the affair is theirs alone.

 

I hope this made sense. Affair=not the responsibility of the uncheating spouse. Marital breakdown=responsibility of both, but not necessarily equal responsibility.

 

Well said, Michelle. :001_smile:

[budeb]

"If a man is incapable of being faithful, then he darn well best be capable of paying support, cause it would be the most expensive urge you ever had!"

 

LOL... my thinking too. I trust my husband until he gives me reason not too. What a way to live if I had to watch his every move.

[Nestof3]

I don't disagree that we are fallible. I do disagree that both could "succumb to temtation" because I didn't. It never even crossed my mind. As for reasons, my dh had his "reasons", which he readily admits were, in the end, nothing but excuses he used to justify to himself his actions and keep his guilt at bay. That is what the "reasons" really are, justifications to stave off guilt. Can they have some basis in reality? Of course, but that does not mean one has to make the choice to cheat. They could do the right and honorable thing and actually try to work it out with their spouse. Or they could leave. There is simply no valid, justifiable "reason" to cheat on the person you made a committment of fidelity to on your wedding day. You can come up with "reasons" all day, but that does not make the act of infidelity any less the act of supreme selfishness it is. Because, again, there is always another choice that could have been made.

 

I never said it was RIGHT to cheat. I am actually being proactive in my view of this whole matter -- not defensive. What I mean by this is, I am not trying to give a person an excuse for what has been done but to discuss what could lead a person to want to go elsewhere.

 

Honestly, I think you are making the other options too simplistic. Divorce and working on a marriage are also two very difficult things. It is quite possible the other person does not see there is a problem, and divorces are not exactly simple matters. Again, I am not saying that a person should choose an affair over these two, but I am just saying that I think you are underestimating the frailty of a person.

 

Rather than just say "thou shalt not have an affair" -- I choose to think in terms of encouraging others and myself to focus on how to nourish a marriage so that one would not find herself longing for those days when she felt alive, appreciated, and adored. Though I have never had an affair, I have had times in my marriage when I did long for more than what was at present. There have been moments when a conversation with another man could send my mind awandering to new possibilities. New ones mixed with feelings of old. Thankfully, I have a devoted husband and together we work on our marriage, our miscommunications, are negligences. We both truly desire to be the best we can be for each other.

 

So, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just coming from the whole thing with not the need to justify a person but exhort.

 

PS -- I also don't think all affairs are sexual in nature. Emotional affairs exist as well.

[Jugglin'5]

I just want to say that I agree with Dawn, Lisa, and Michelle, and thank them for their thoughtful responses. I want to add that this is not the same thing as "watching a spouse's every move" or believing that "men are just like that" or that "it is always the woman's fault".

 

If you are on a diet, half the battle is avoiding tempting situations, is it not? It is easy to say, "Just don't eat the cheesecake." But it is much easier to not eat the cheesecake when your blood sugar isn't messed up, or you have had a hard day, or it is that time of the month, right? Frankly, I am more tempted on a regular basis by the cheesecake than by other men. But my temptation makes me understand how powerful other temptations can be for other people. And if I love my spouse, and he loves me, why wouldn't we help each other avoid those temptations? (Being overly controlling would seem to me to be setting up rather than preventing temptation, btw.) All this just seems like common sense and kindness to me. If I eat the cheesecake, it is nobody's fault but my own. But if I had eaten a better lunch, or my dh had come in the kitchen at the right time and given me a backrub, the outcome might have been different, yes? I'm not trying to equate the srious of adultery with staying on a diet, but the mechanisms of temptation are the same.

 

There are some men and women who are going to be unfaithful just because they are amoral narcissists. None of the above applies in those cases.

[Paula in PA]

I am not saying men (and women) don't have needs that need to be met. I'm not saying that reasons given cannot have a very strong basis in reality. I get all of that and agree. I am not saying temptation is not overwhelming at times in everyone's life. What I am saying is that choosing to cheat or not is just that, a choice. Are the other choices, working it out or leaving, a lot harder? Absolutely! That was the point of my saying that cheating is the easy way out. You can be tempted, but that doesn't mean you have to actually do it. I happen to agree with a PP, that cheating is a moral failing. It is giving in to selfishness, thinking only of your own needs and taking the easy road, instead of considering your partner and marriage and taking the harder, but more right road, and staying faithful. In the last year & a half, dh and I have discussed all the different reasons and excuses he gave himself, and we've heard and read about many more. In our opinion, it all comes down to self-control and actually thinking about the consequences of your actions. That is why some men in an unhappy marriage still will not cheat, despite the fact that they have all the same reasons some other guy had who did cheat. And yes, I do know a few like that. They went to their wives and talked to them, even went to councelling alone if the wife wouldn't. In at least one case, he chose to leave. Was it hard? Of course. But he had the moral fiber to do the right thing, instead of taking the easier path.

 

As for the problems in a marriage being the responsibility of both, I already said that. I was just as responsible, if not more, as my dh was. So yes, his reasons were certainly based in reality. But he'll be the first to admit that what he did was selfish and taking the easier path. He considered the other options briefly and dismissed them as too hard. Fighting the temptation was also harder than just giving in and therefore dismissed as well. He regrets that decision. He also agrees that cheating is a moral failing and has worked hard to change that in himself, just as I have worked to make changes in myself. It's why we're still together.

 

And this is all I'm doing on this thread. Needless to say, it's brought up a lot of painful memories for me. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on some things.:001_smile:

Edited May 13, 2009 by Paula in PA

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Paula in PA - I agree with everything you said

[Nestof3]

Paula in PA - I agree with everything you said

 

And so do I. We are just speaking from different sides of it. Paula clearly has the experience of one cheated on and the pain and defensiveness that comes from it. Since I do not, I only have the proactive, protective side of it. I do not see them as at odds.

 

Though I do not have an affair in my past, there are other things I have done that were the easier way out. Sure, they aren't as "baaad" as an affair (like we really need to rate badness), but yelling at my children is definitely easier to do than control myself and work through the issue at hand.

[newlifemom]

Though I do not have an affair in my past, there are other things I have done that were the easier way out. Sure, they aren't as "baaad" as an affair (like we really need to rate badness), but yelling at my children is definitely easier to do than control myself and work through the issue at hand.

 

Ouch, thank you for the important, though painful reminder of one of my 'easier ways out'.:o

[LisaNY]

I never said it was RIGHT to cheat. I am actually being proactive in my view of this whole matter -- not defensive. What I mean by this is, I am not trying to give a person an excuse for what has been done but to discuss what could lead a person to want to go elsewhere.

 

Honestly, I think you are making the other options too simplistic. Divorce and working on a marriage are also two very difficult things. It is quite possible the other person does not see there is a problem, and divorces are not exactly simple matters. Again, I am not saying that a person should choose an affair over these two, but I am just saying that I think you are underestimating the frailty of a person.

 

Rather than just say "thou shalt not have an affair" -- I choose to think in terms of encouraging others and myself to focus on how to nourish a marriage so that one would not find herself longing for those days when she felt alive, appreciated, and adored. Though I have never had an affair, I have had times in my marriage when I did long for more than what was at present. There have been moments when a conversation with another man could send my mind awandering to new possibilities. New ones mixed with feelings of old. Thankfully, I have a devoted husband and together we work on our marriage, our miscommunications, are negligences. We both truly desire to be the best we can be for each other.

 

So, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just coming from the whole thing with not the need to justify a person but exhort.

 

PS -- I also don't think all affairs are sexual in nature. Emotional affairs exist as well.

 

Well said, Dawn. Thank you for sharing that.

[OnTheBrink]

I am not saying men (and women) don't have needs that need to be met. I'm not saying that reasons given cannot have a very strong basis in reality. I get all of that and agree. I am not saying temptation is not overwhelming at times in everyone's life. What I am saying is that choosing to cheat or not is just that, a choice. Are the other choices, working it out or leaving, a lot harder? Absolutely! That was the point of my saying that cheating is the easy way out. You can be tempted, but that doesn't mean you have to actually do it. I happen to agree with a PP, that cheating is a moral failing. It is giving in to selfishness, thinking only of your own needs and taking the easy road, instead of considering your partner and marriage and taking the harder, but more right road, and staying faithful. In the last year & a half, dh and I have discussed all the different reasons and excuses he gave himself, and we've heard and read about many more. In our opinion, it all comes down to self-control and actually thinking about the consequences of your actions. That is why some men in an unhappy marriage still will not cheat, despite the fact that they have all the same reasons some other guy had who did cheat. And yes, I do know a few like that. They went to their wives and talked to them, even went to councelling alone if the wife wouldn't. In at least one case, he chose to leave. Was it hard? Of course. But he had the moral fiber to do the right thing, instead of taking the easier path.

 

As for the problems in a marriage being the responsibility of both, I already said that. I was just as responsible, if not more, as my dh was. So yes, his reasons were certainly based in reality. But he'll be the first to admit that what he did was selfish and taking the easier path. He considered the other options briefly and dismissed them as too hard. Fighting the temptation was also harder than just giving in and therefore dismissed as well. He regrets that decision. He also agrees that cheating is a moral failing and has worked hard to change that in himself, just as I have worked to make changes in myself. It's why we're still together.

 

And this is all I'm doing on this thread. Needless to say, it's brought up a lot of painful memories for me. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on some things.:001_smile:

 

Paula, I think we're agreeing here. LOL

 

I'm sorry this brought up painful memories. :grouphug:

[Rosie_0801]

But again, it's about HIM needing her to change in order for HIM to feel good about HIMSELF and not cheat. That is selfishness at work. Why didn't he go to her and try to talk it out? Why not suggest councelling? Why didn't he consider that maybe she was going through a rough time and needed his support? They have other choices. No one put a gun to their head and made them do it. By making excuses for them, which you seem to be doing, you are basically condoning it in my mind. I hope I am misreading that. What it comes down to, for me, is that there is NEVER any valid reason, I don't care what they come up with, for a person to cheat on their spouse. Because they have other choices they could make.

 

I don't know about everyone else's hubbies, but mine can't really do this. If things aren't so good between the two of us, he mooches along feeling vaguely unhappy without being able to figure out why. I don't know why it's so difficult, after all, it's always the same reason, but he can't figure it out. So I don't think selfishness is the reason someone might disconnect. I don't think that's an excuse to cheat, though. It's basic manners to finish with one person before you start with another, in my opinion. As for wives needing support from their hubbies, you'd think hubbies would be notice, but apparently they believe we are competent superwomen and don't notice the blatantly obvious (to us) signs that we are not. If want something, we have to ask for it. My hubby won't notice that the floor is way overdue for vacuuming because he doesn't care. Not because he doesn't care about me, but because he doesn't care if no one ever vacuums. I think he honestly can't understand why any one cares if the floor is vacuumed!

I wouldn't make excuses for anyone actually cheating, but I think affairs are the result of two people having insufficient relationship skills. My hubby cheated on one of his previous girlfriends. I'm not his keeper in that I refuse to let him go anywhere unsupervised (ew, how unattractive would that be?) but I do make an effort to troubleshoot in our (un) marriage because I know he can't do that and someone has to for the show to continue. It's his job to pay the rent, my job to troubleshoot our marriage. Division of labour, that's all.

 

Rosie

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

And so do I. We are just speaking from different sides of it. Paula clearly has the experience of one cheated on and the pain and defensiveness that comes from it. Since I do not, I only have the proactive, protective side of it. I do not see them as at odds.

 

Though I do not have an affair in my past, there are other things I have done that were the easier way out. Sure, they aren't as "baaad" as an affair (like we really need to rate badness), but yelling at my children is definitely easier to do than control myself and work through the issue at hand.

 

I'll have to take you at your word....cuz it seems to me that, using your "yelling at kids" analogy, that what you've said about a husband would analogize into, "yes, it is lack of self control to yell at my children, and it is all my fault, but I wouldn't do it if they picked up their toys or didn't whine." Do you see how that sounds as if the children are somewhat to blame for being yelled at? Yes, perhaps they could be better children, but regardless of whether they are monsters or angels, children do not deserve to be screamed at, and the screamer bears the responsiblity for the ultimate fall-out caused by the lack of parenting skills, lack of self-control or unresolved anger management issues.

 

Now, I agree that both people in a relationship bear the responsibility for keeping the relationship strong. However, if one person drops the ball (gets fat, stops cooking, enters a premenopausal phase of crabbiness, whatever), that does not give excuse to the other partner to cheat. Just as if one partner were to cheat, the other partner could not then cheat and say "well, he/she cheated first" as if to excuse the behavior or somehow make the act of cheating less heinous or shift some of the blame away from him/herself.

 

I think we're discussing two separate issues here:

(1) cheating is a moral failing, inexcusable under any circumstance, for which the cheater bears total responsiblity

(2) any strong relationship takes both partners fully committed to putting in the time and hard work to keep it strong.

Edited May 13, 2009 by MeanestMomInMidwest

[newlifemom]

I think we're discussing two separate issues here:

(1) cheating is a moral failing, inexcusable under any circumstance, for which the cheater bears total responsiblity

(2) any strong relationship takes both partners fully committed to putting in the time and hard work to keep it strong.

 

I think I agree, but . . .I can't help but put the two together.

 

I have to participate in my marriage in such a way that it is a healthy one. If I have done everything right and still have a loser hubby(which I definately don't), I still don't have an excuse to cheat. Heck, I don't even think I have reason to leave, (but that's another can of worms thread :tongue_smilie:) If I were to split hairs then yes the two are separate. However, I have enough split hairs on my head so I think I might keep this one together.

 

Thank you for letting me work that out. I think I needed to respond so I could understand my confusion. Now I am clear as mud.

[LisaNY]

I just want to say that I agree with Dawn' date=' Lisa, and Michelle, and thank them for their thoughtful responses. I want to add that this is not the same thing as "watching a spouse's every move" or believing that "men are just like that" or that "it is always the woman's fault".

 

If you are on a diet, half the battle is avoiding tempting situations, is it not? It is easy to say, "Just don't eat the cheesecake." But it is much easier to not eat the cheesecake when your blood sugar isn't messed up, or you have had a hard day, or it is that time of the month, right? Frankly, I am more tempted on a regular basis by the cheesecake than by other men. But my temptation makes me understand how powerful other temptations can be for other people. And if I love my spouse, and he loves me, why wouldn't we help each other avoid those temptations? (Being overly controlling would seem to me to be setting up rather than preventing temptation, btw.) All this just seems like common sense and kindness to me. If I eat the cheesecake, it is nobody's fault but my own. But if I had eaten a better lunch, or my dh had come in the kitchen at the right time and given me a backrub, the outcome might have been different, yes? I'm not trying to equate the srious of adultery with staying on a diet, but the mechanisms of temptation are the same.

 

There are some men and women who are going to be unfaithful just because they are amoral narcissists. None of the above applies in those cases.[/quote']

 

I think this is part of what a loving marriage is all about. Two people helping each other to be the best that they can be - treating one another with deference, respect, kindness, and honor.

[LisaNY]

I don't know about everyone else's hubbies, but mine can't really do this. If things aren't so good between the two of us, he mooches along feeling vaguely unhappy without being able to figure out why. I don't know why it's so difficult, after all, it's always the same reason, but he can't figure it out. So I don't think selfishness is the reason someone might disconnect. I don't think that's an excuse to cheat, though. It's basic manners to finish with one person before you start with another, in my opinion. As for wives needing support from their hubbies, you'd think hubbies would be notice, but apparently they believe we are competent superwomen and don't notice the blatantly obvious (to us) signs that we are not. If want something, we have to ask for it. My hubby won't notice that the floor is way overdue for vacuuming because he doesn't care. Not because he doesn't care about me, but because he doesn't care if no one ever vacuums. I think he honestly can't understand why any one cares if the floor is vacuumed!

I wouldn't make excuses for anyone actually cheating, but I think affairs are the result of two people having insufficient relationship skills. My hubby cheated on one of his previous girlfriends. I'm not his keeper in that I refuse to let him go anywhere unsupervised (ew, how unattractive would that be?) but I do make an effort to troubleshoot in our (un) marriage because I know he can't do that and someone has to for the show to continue. It's his job to pay the rent, my job to troubleshoot our marriage. Division of labour, that's all.

 

Rosie

 

I like that perspective. :001_smile:

[Nestof3]

I'll have to take you at your word....cuz it seems to me that, using your "yelling at kids" analogy, that what you've said about a husband would analogize into, "yes, it is lack of self control to yell at my children, and it is all my fault, but I wouldn't do it if they picked up their toys or didn't whine." Do you see how that sounds as if the children are somewhat to blame for being yelled at? Yes, perhaps they could be better children, but regardless of whether they are monsters or angels, children do not deserve to be screamed at, and the screamer bears the responsiblity for the ultimate fall-out caused by the lack of parenting skills, lack of self-control or unresolved anger management issues.

 

 

No, I don't see how I am saying that it's the children's fault I have screamed. I was simply finding an example that shows that we humans sometimes choose what is easiest and least responsible. Apparently, you have a moral fiber stronger than I since you've never yelled at your children.

 

I am not in this conversation to prove anything or to get anyone on "my side." I will say it again -- I am focusing my attention on what it takes to make a strong marriage -- not trying to prove that a person has the right to cheat.

[Paula in PA]

I am not in this conversation to prove anything or to get anyone on "my side." I will say it again -- I am focusing my attention on what it takes to make a strong marriage -- not trying to prove that a person has the right to cheat.

 

Communication, treating each other with respect, honesty, communication, openness, transparency, communication, thinking of the others needs even before your own, sharing some kind of hobby if possible, communication, spending time together even if it's just snuggling on the couch, not taking each other and your relationship for granted, communication.

 

By the way, did I mention communication? :tongue_smilie:

 

These are the things we've learned we lost and are now working on getting back. And yes, communication is absolutely key. You have to talk to each other about any problems, concerns, irritations, etc, that come up. As well as just to talk about how your day is going. Considering the others needs is another big one and it has to go both ways. But if for some reason you feel some need is not being met, you go to them and you tell them. Easy? Maybe not, but very necessary. It really does take two to tango, as the saying goes. :001_smile:

 

And yea, I know I said I was staying out of it, but I just can never seem to keep my nose out of some things. :tongue_smilie:

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

No, I don't see how I am saying that it's the children's fault I have screamed. I was simply finding an example that shows that we humans sometimes choose what is easiest and least responsible. Apparently, you have a moral fiber stronger than I since you've never yelled at your children.

 

I am not in this conversation to prove anything or to get anyone on "my side." I will say it again -- I am focusing my attention on what it takes to make a strong marriage -- not trying to prove that a person has the right to cheat.

 

This is hopeless. Why would you even write the words I bolded?

I am sorry I assumed you were capable of abstract thought and could understand an analogy.

[*********]

This is hopeless. Why would you even write the words I bolded?

I am sorry I assumed you were capable of abstract thought and could understand an analogy.

 

Hey, meanestmom, this seems a bit hypocrical of you. You don't like one thing Dawn said, so you insult her. Hmmm. Interesting. I'm rather sure, from reading many of Dawn's posts, that she is a very intelligent woman, very capable of abstract thought and understanding an analogy. As, I'm sure, are you, and probably most anyone else on this board.

 

I'm sure Dawn is capable of defending her side of the discussion. I'm just sayin'. That wasn't cool.

[Nestof3]

This is hopeless. Why would you even write the words I bolded?

I am sorry I assumed you were capable of abstract thought and could understand an analogy.

 

I wrote the bolded words because I understood your words below to mean that since you have never yelled at your children, you would have to take me at my word -- take it from someone who has.

 

I'll have to take you at your word....cuz it seems to me that, using your "yelling at kids" analogy

 

I really have nothing to say to your comment about whether I am capable of abstract thought and analogy. You are entitled to your opinion of me.