I'm thinking of using CLE's Bible course for ds. Do I need the teacher's manual? Also, if you've used their Art Pacs, what are your thoughts? Are they interesting? Ds really enjoys art, a subject in which I have NO talent, but I'd love to develop his skills with little help from me, so I thought this may be a good independent approach? Both will be for 3rd grade. Thanks!

My heart is heavy with all of this. There's been so many natural disasters lately and there is nothing that can be done to stop it. Prayers are going out to all involved. :grouphug:

I understand fully what you are feeling. It led Dh and I to move 1000 miles away from the weight of our families! We have never been happier!!! It changed our life for the better in all aspects. Sometimes change really is the best option. Praying for you! :grouphug:

Welcome back! I was just thinking about you and wondering where you were! :D Everyone else pretty much summed up the past week. Happy catching up! Ps - I prefer Gerard :lol:

It sounds like you really need to take care of you. I used to be as you describe, but I started going to see a counselor, and I take Celexa daily. It's made a world of difference. As for you being similar to your mom, there are 2 trains of thought that could be in place. One, it is genetic and was possibly set off after ds9 due to hormones, PPD, or something else (just plain being overwhelmed). Or, two, your mother has taught you negative behaviors/coping skills that you are now utilizing in your life. You probably did not even realize you had inherited these behaviors until now, and they're making you feel more out of control and angry. It could also be a combination of both. I'm only hypothesizing based upon my own experiences since for me it was both factors (my counselor helped me break it down while the meds helped me be able to calm down enough to be able to "see" it all clearly). I hope you can find some help and a feeling of peace soon! :grouphug:

I just ordered the Grammar Stage Chemistry for next year, and I'm so excited to start it! We need to finish R.E.A.L Science Earth & Space first (which is good, but I think ES will be better). There are several on here who are using ES and really liking it.

Beth, You have such an interesting list of resources for your 3rd grade daughter! You noted that you "loop" through them. Could you explain how that looks within your homeschool? Do you combine resources to make one lesson a day? Or, do you work with one resource extensively for say 2 wks, move on to another for 2, and so on? Also, what made you decide to pull from so many sources? When I was in the classroom, I used to do this because I was only focusing on one subject, but with all the subjects to teach and now folding my 4yo into the routine of the day more, I was hoping to avoid all that work. However, I'm starting to wonder if that would be the best road for me to take? I'm finding I'm pretty picky in regard to this subject. :tongue_smilie: I'm eager to hear more...

Thank you! Thank you for suggesting this, especially; it sounds as if it may encompass all I'm trying to find. I will be looking into it further.

I'm researching curriculum for 3rd grade writing for ds. I thought I had it figured out, but I've been doing some pondering prompted by questions from some moms in the Logic/Middle School forum, and now I'm not so sure. We've been using WWE2, but ds hates it, so I'd prefer to avoid WWE3 even though I do like SWB's methodology and reasons behind that method. Anyway, in thinking of grammar level writing curriculum, I've come up with the following... what am I missing so I can research all my options? Here's what I have... Writing Strands Classical Writing CLE LA Write Source Write Shop (they now have a primary level) I know there are more, but I can't remember! Please enlighten me, Hive. Thanks!

I think I really was on FB at 6 PM! :lol::lol::lol:

:iagree: :lol: My entire house is a mess! Dh is painting, we're moving furniture, purging... Heaven better be better than this!

Don't beat yourself up, although I know it's hard not to. The beauty of homeschooling is you do not have to rush this year's writing path if she is struggling still. She can still be creative while you are teaching her the skills. I really like elegantlion's approach where she is going to break the writing up into different categories. A lot of writing will be done, but because you can make the portions smaller or use an assignment within another subject, it can be done in such a way to not feel overwhelming. I would use BJU for the mechanics (sentence/paragraph structure, dialog, etc). Then, use the other programs to allow her to be creative while showing her how to bring it all together. Or, you could take a history essay and require the use of so many adjectives, clauses, etc. to be used within that essay so she is covering the mechanics if you are worried about overload. Intro to Lit looks excellent, and I think it will help both her literary and writing skills. You can toggle assignments, as you mentioned, so she is getting writing instruction from a variety of sources. Be graceful with yourself here. She still has plenty of time and many avenues to retrain and gain the skills. The fact that she is NOT in a classroom with those deadlines and distractions is very much in her (and your) favor. Wishing you the best! Signed a former 8th grade LA teacher :001_smile:

:iagree:Another former teacher (Lang Arts) here, agreeing whole-heartedly with this statement and SWB. Also, every child moves at a different pace. Some kids are ready for creativity IF their foundational understanding/mastery is strong. I wouldn't push this any earlier than 3rd grade, however, and even that is a stretch, imho. Fifth grade seems more appropriate to me, but waiting later may be even better.

You are so welcome, SaDonna! It has been my pleasure! This has also helped me review my philosophies, and it has brought me back to the core that is what led me to homeschooling in the first place. I needed that as I was becoming overwhelmed and losing the focus as to why I chose this road and why I don't feel comfortable in the classroom anymore. I LOVE how your kids are doing so well in grammar! Grammar actually can be fun & that's not just because I'm an English dork. :lol: It's like a puzzle, and getting all the pieces to fit together, makes for a beautiful whole. If it is approached as a game when kids are younger, it doesn't have to be drugery, and the kids will learn it. I often wonder if teachers today, who do not have a strong grammar background because it's a lost art, will gloss over it because their own fears inhibit them from having the confidence to teach it. I would have to say this truly may be the case espeically since it's not part of methodology classes when training to become a teacher. Anyway, I digress... I'm so glad you are seeing success! That is awesome! :001_smile:

:lol: This is a loaded question! I say that because the teachers in 7th would lament about what those in 6th didn't do, and they'd lament about 5th, and so on. The high school teachers would always tell us what we were not doing! To try to answer it though... I guess I'd have to say, it truly depended upon which teacher they came from before entering my room. Some of the LA teachers in 7th (and earlier) did focus on writing well. I could say to the kids, "Oh, you had so & so last year, right?" because their grammar skills were up to par (or close to it). These teachers made writing a priority, and not just writing to put words on a paper, but writing as a form of clear communication. The teachers who taught or even exposed the kids to the techniques of writing from grammar, to pre-writing organization techniques, to proper paragraph development & transitions, to description, etc. They did not need to enter my room writing 5-paragraph persuasive essays because it was my job to teach that, but many hadn't been taught how to write a descriptive paragraph or a narration that was logical and interesting. The school (and the elementary schools) had curriculum within its walls to cover this. I know narrative writing was part of the 5th grade curriculum as that is where I did my student teaching. I don't know where the gaps began though, and as I said, some teachers did manage to convey the knowledge. I don't agree that one formula needs to be applied in order to teach writing from the early years to the latter years, so requiring teachers to use ONE and only one curriculum/method is not (imho) the right approach. Forcing this model (as some states/school districts do) really puts kids in a box. Rather, utilizing a variety of resources (and they are out there) to teach skills allows students who are not in the "typical" box to succeed as well. I believe all kids are bright when given the potential to learn according to their style. This is not necessarily conducive to a classroom environment, as most know. I'm grateful to be able to homeschool in order to avoid the pitfalls of a classroom. We had a 3" binder full of the objectives and scope & sequence for an 8th grade LA teacher. Large amounts of money were spent to create a yearly curriculum in our district, but if some teachers are focusing more on one area than another (maybe because of students' skill sets, teacher comfort, resources, etc) then gaps will definitely appear. Also, time becomes a factor since the requirements are SO extensive in theory, they do not include room for the practical elements of a classroom (behavior issues, large class sizes, varied levels of ability/prior knowledge, administrative interruptions - kids being pulled for OT/PT/Speech, guidance appts, fire drills, field trips, etc). I'm truly not sure what the answer would be to rectify all this at this point aside from a 180 degree overhaul on the entire educational system. The reliance on standardized testing has even further hindered a teacher's ability to teach the curriculum intended for each subject because they now have to focus on test skills, preparation, NCLB, and a host of other requirements so students will pass the test. As homeschooling parents, I believe we need to not be afraid of starting small to work toward something big at the end. SWB discusses this in WTM and WWE. It's a parts to whole focus, leading the students slowly and consistently. I think schools want the students to jump into the end result rather than allowing them to pick up the skills in increments. Schools ask kids to be creative with their writing so that students are not hindered by their natural curiosities and imginations so they start them writing early and often. While asking the students to be creative is not inherently bad, it is when you are not providing the raw skills to communicate their thoughts. As SWB has kids do through narration and illustrating a history or science page, they are retelling, summarizing, and internalizing the small parts of communication. The illustration, not the narration, is how kids can show creativity without stifling them. Creativity in writing can flow more freely and confidently when the writing skills are developed prior to giving the students 100% freedom. I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore. :lol: I'm a bit tired today as ds2 is not feeling well and has been a bear. Hope all this helps! Thank you for challenging me, OhElizabeth! I do not mind being grilled at all, and I definitely won't pretend to know all the answers. There are so many facets to learning/teaching, and how one child responds to one method may not apply to another (as you well know with your dd).

:iagree: Her WWE book resonated with me immediately. In discussing all this with you ladies, it's made me rethink my focus for next year with my son! Thank you for helping me work through my concerns and struggles which prompted my original thread in the general K-8 forum. :001_smile:

My mid students could get through 2-3 essays a year - keep in mind, it took us most of the year to get through HOW to create the essay, so we lost time with them actually writing an essay. I could *usually* get the top-tier kids writing 4-5 solid essays a year. This was not every year, however, because even my top-tier kids were often times lower than what *we* may consider top-tier. A story to relate... I taught at the middle school I attended as a student. The same teachers I had in the accelerated program I was a part of still taught the accelerated students. All 3 who were still there (math, science, and social studies) would state without hesitation that the students today are nowhere near as bright, motivated, and capable as the students were when I was a 7th & 8th grader. They could talk, site examples, and provide research as to how requirements and expectations of the students have been dumbed down over the years. All of them were teaching for 20+ years when I became their colleague. In the course of working the kids through the development of an essay, I often had them do smaller assignments to hone (or most often, relearn) their writing skills. I would assign a descriptive paragraph using a piece of art (self-chosen or given by me) where they were to be as descriptive as possible to learn how to formulate interesting sentences. It amazed me how choppy and boring most of their writing was! I had them write expository paragraphs/essays to see how to say exactly what they meant so that another could follow. These mini assignments provided them with small, less overwhelming tasks, in order to develop specific skills: sentence structure, word order, transitioning, interest, etc. I tried to balance with the kids choosing their topics, using premade prompts of their choice, or giving them one specific topic for the whole class. I tried to keep it interest-driven while focusing on having them accomplish a variety of necessary skills. Some kids would write about personal issues; others would create stories, and others would talk about their favorite things, places they've been, and/or exciting things they've done when given free reign. Sometimes an assignment would require literary analysis where I'd have them describe the character's emotions in a specific scene. Sometimes they would have to tell me, in writing, why they think the author chose a specific setting. Basically, I tried to have them write and write often, but each assignment had FCAs (Focus Correction Areas) in line with the John Collins program. Scholastic had a series of books covering the 4 major types of writing that I used to direct the students. Here is one of them: http://www.amazon.com/Descriptive-Writing-Grades-Tara-Mccarthy/dp/0590209329/ref=sr_1_43?ie=UTF8&qid=1305898441&sr=8-43 The only research-based assignments were the 5-paragraph thesis essays that were approached after having them do half the year (or longer with my lower students) on the smaller assignments. Students were given a variety of topics in which to choose where they were to find 3 facts that could support their thesis. With pre-approval, students could present a topic that was not on my list (my list was 25+ topics relative to their world) - my higher tiered students were the only ones who wanted to veer from the list, if at all. It wasn't a true research paper since I did not have them do formal citations within the essay. Gosh, that would have completely overwhelmed them! However, I did teach that they could not plagarize the information so it must be converted into their own words. I would say that my not having them cite was a failure in itself because then I was neglecting a necessary skill, but in essence of time, I just couldn't cover everything even if I wanted to. There just simply is not enough time within the dynamics of a classroom and all the interruptions. Some days, my 45 minute period was whittled down to only 20 minutes of actual useable teaching time once I was able to collect assignments, redirect behavior, get them settled in their seats, deal with lost things, the office calling in, etc. My goal in the 5-paragraph essay was to get them to formulate an opinion, express it in a workable (and understandable) thesis statement, provide 3 paragraphs to support the thesis, and then smoothly conclude their essay. The students did have to tell me where their information came from when handing in their 3 support paragraphs (some printed out the internet articles, some showed me the actual books/pages, some brought me newspapers). It was a requirement that I SEE thier sources. Again, I didn't have time to take it further. :( I did not use a textbook in my classroom for grammar or literature. Although, the kids did have access to Write Source and Write Shop books which were used as teaching guides. We did not work through the entire book because I believe in more differentiated instruction than a textbook provides (both are solid writing programs when used over the years, but since this was not the case in the grades prior, they were only guides for my students). I'm really interested in checking out IEW based on some of the comments in response to my posts. It sounds as if it follows the JC way of writing that I used in my clasroom which I have seen work. The lacking component in my school district was there was not a consistent program used year-to-year to teach writing. So, students could not build on their skills in a logical manner. One program may not be the answer, but some sort of consistency must be maintained, and this is not a focus or a priority. Schools have been touting a writing across the curriculum focus; however, you have to teach the skills within this, and that is not being done. Poor habits are formed (spelling was usually atrocious with my students), and as time moves on it becomes too "late" and overwhelming to correct the errors. The mentality has become, "Well, at least they are expressing themselves!" vs. "these kids needs skills to survive in the future". It's really sad...

Oh my goodness! He's so adorable! I adore his name as well! Enjoy those yummy puppy breath kisses!

Iris, I think you hit the nail on the head here. Somewhere along the way, we have stopped seeing writing as a means of communication. Even in today's digital society, we need to be able to convey information succinctly and appropriately. I could go on a full-fledged RANT about how the students would use Internet/email lingo in their papers! cuz = because, I was always "i", later = l8ter, wuz = was, and so on... DROVE ME NUTS! This was before texting really took off too; I can only imagine what teachers are experiencing now. Ugh.

I was worried I was going to lose all my info, so I figured it would be best to break things up. The question was asked as to whether I wanted to do more creative things... absolutely! Yet, we just didn't have time to make that our focus. I did try to give them creative prompts or topics for them to write about in order to give them some ability to express themselves. I also allowed small, free-writing assignments every now and then as fillers. These were not formal, and they often focused only on one skill (quotation marks, verb usage, etc). It was a miracle if I could fit poetry writing in each year; it was usually overlooked because of the sheer lack of time. With the emphasis on teaching to the test that is taking over in many schools, there is even LESS time to fulfill the teaching of necessary skills! While trying to get the kids to write well, we were expected to teach a variety of literature. I'll admit it; this was my favorite part of teaching LA. It was easier than trudging through the writing since 8th graders really enjoy talking and the emotional side of life. I loved hearing the kids' views regarding characters, ethics, morals, their analysis of plot, foils, etc. Having the kids write about the books hindered their abilities to express their thoughts. They could verbalize it through speaking & discussions, but they became paralzyed when needing to put their thoughts into writing because the formulation of sentences, appropriate word order, and the ability to portray what they meant required skills that did not coincide with their ability to think the thoughts. I believe that because it was more enjoyable to read and discuss books, illustrate scenes, and make little picture books about novels, teachers focus more on this in elementary school. It's more difficult to make writing fun, although it absolutely can be done, so teachers step away from it. Removing grammar from many schools has also affected the ability for kids to tell what they think. It's a travesty, really. A written analysis of a novel was especially difficult for kids who had dyslexia or LD's because they were struggling with the initial reading of the literature. Asking them to then tell about a novel that they could not fully understand because of their disabilites was like asking them to build a house without ever having them hold a hammer. THis brings me to why I think it's so extremely important that we, as homeschoolers, build a strong foundation of grammar and sentence structure. I feel as if everything has been dumbed down to the point that I'm not sure how students can recover these skills if they are in a traditional B&M school. I hope I've covered everything... please let me know if I've missed something or I'm not making sense. Dh and ds1 have interrupted me many times, so I apologize if I'm unclear.

Okay, ladies! I'm back. Thanks for your patience. I just spent a day learning about outdoor cooking with 8 boys ages 4-9, so if I'm not 100% coherent, I'm sorry! :001_smile: I'm going to try to answer all of OhElizabeth's questions, but if I miss something, please let me know. Let me say my answers are based upon my experiences and those of my colleagues while teaching at a public middle school in southern NH. Socioeconomic status would be primarily middle class, just to give you an idea of the student body we were reaching. I have my M.Ed in Elementary Education w/ a middle school focus, certified K-8. I'll start by saying the majority of my students had poor writing skills, although there were some (probably about 10-12 per year out of 90) who could write solidly, meaning they could formulate a well-organized, coherent and interesting 5 paragraph essay including a thesis statement with little instruction. Every year, our goal was to get the students to be able to craft this type of persuasive essay so they would be prepared for high school where this was an immediate requirement. It was a struggle EVERY year because the kids came in with poor grammar skills (inabliity to use word order, adverbs, tense, complex sentences, etc). We often had to teach basic paragraph skills! At the beginning of the year, I concentrated on trying to get the kids up to speed going through the simple parts of speech and where they were in a sentence, moving into working the kids through how to make complex sentences with the different types of clauses, infinitives, gerunds, etc. I had to teach these kids and pray they got it. If not, we kept moving on. From there I moved into solid paragraphs with opening hooks, middle describing sentences, and strong conclusions. Then, I taught thesis statements. We analyzed how to formulate an opinion, 3 supporting facts (what are facts vs. opinions was taught amidst this), and a confident conclusion within this complex sentence. Next, we broke the 5 paragraph essay into parts. The kids wrote the opening, I checked it. Then each of the supporting fact paragraphs were written (one at a time, and I checked them), then a conclusion. We worked on smooth transitions between paragraphs while doing this. The kids wrote, revised, rewrote, revised, rewrote, and then put all the paragraphs together into a finalized essay. It was exhausting and took up a tremendous amount of time. It sounds as if I was doing all the right things with them, but honestly, many of the kids were so stunted and lacked confidence that it remained a stuggle for them. Some never fully grasped the grammar at the beginning of the year; therefore, they couldn't fully move on to make strong paragraphs despite giving them example after example of solid paragraphs (from literature or even their peers who were successful writers). I still feel as if I failed many of them, but they were just SO far behind that I plain didn't have enough TIME to get them all properly caught up. Kwim? I loved walking them through the process of writing and seeing them grow even if it was just slightly. I loved seeing them use a thesaurus or a dictionary to find the "right" words; I loved seeing them help their peers. I hated the feeling of failure so many of them had. I hated that there was so much they just didn't know because they were never taught it in the earlier grades since the focus was so incredibly literature based. Somewhere along the way, Language Arts became a place to discuss, illustrate, and use creativity, but the CORE SKILLS were being neglected. Kids could come up with imaginative ideas, but they had no idea how to formulate paragraphs to portray those ideas. They could read wonderful books, but they didn't have the writing skills to properly analyze them or convey their thoughts clearly in regards to the books. Kids would ask me, can't we just do a book report? To them it meant regurgitate the summary on the back cover! I taught 3 blocks of LA each day for 1.5 hr total time although they may not have been back to back periods. I usually had a high class, an average class, and a lower class in terms of capabilities. I could take my higher and average kids further in terms of quantity and quality during the year. For my lower kids, one 5 paragraph essay was usually all we made it through during the entire year, and this was in intense struggle. I did differentiate between learners by having the kids reach certain "focus correction areas" in each assignemnt. For example, the kids may have to include 10-15 adjectives throughout the essay, write 6-10 complex sentences, and/or utilize 3 solid transition words within the essay. As we practiced, I would only grade for these things. I learned how to teach/grade this way utilizing the John Collins Writing Program. This way the kids were trying to aim for greatness in very specific areas without feeling overwhelmed in trying to make the entire essay perfect from the start. Some kids had higher requirements, some lower. JC allows you to customize the focus areas for each student. This was extremely valuable in building confidence and pushing the higher students to reach further. It also made it less cumbersome for me as a teacher. As homeschoolers we can readily customize our assignments utilizing this type of method as well. To be continued...

Wow! These are excellent questions! I wish the parents of the kids I was teaching would have been as concerned. :tongue_smilie: I only have about 20 minutes before I have to head out to an afternoon field trip, and since we have not eaten lunch yet, I will need to answer all this tonight. So, please hang on, and I promise I will write back. I'm jotting down the questions so I can ponder my answers. :D

Check out this site: www.confessionsofahomeschooler.com. She has two great geography programs for either world or USA that would be perfect for the grammar stage.

Keep your head held high! You are a STRONG woman, and God will carry you on the days when you feel weak. Praying for you! :grouphug:

As a former 8th grade Language Arts teacher who has seen what has happened to writing in schools, teaching writing well is extremely important to me. However, I'm worried about overkill and causing my boys to hate it. Could you help me sort through this? This year, we've done WWE and R&S English 2 (some exercises ds writes, most are oral). Ds also does copywork 2x/week for Bible. He's begun writing narrations for history and science, and he will continue this for 3rd grade. For next year's writing, I am planning to use WS 3 and R&S English 3. Since R&S 3 introduces diagramming and paragraph writing, ds will be writing for more lessons than he's done this year. Will this be too much? I'm worried about burnout, but he needs to know how to write well. Fwiw, ds does not enjoy writing, but he will do it with little resistance (at this point). Suggestions are welcome too! :001_smile: