If you sing and are musically inclined I would recommend Froseth's method. I am a very big fan of his methods but to implement it you need to have some basic musicianship and good musical intuition. You would need the teacher's guide because it actually gives step by step instruction of how to teach. It's geared toward a music major who gets an elementary job and needs to figure out how to teach recorder so it's pretty well laid out for you. I like the way he sequences rhythm instruction and his play along CD is the best I have ever heard. He includes lyrics with the songs so that you can sing while you are teaching. Not exactly "sound before sight" like Suzuki but more like "sound concurrent with sight". A fourth grader will be able to learn at a completely different pace. In a way the Froseth Do it! Method would be perfect for incorporating those ages. He has songs and lyrics and your K can learn to sing the songs. Perhaps you can teach your K one of the three note songs by rote (hot cross buns) just so that the little one has something to do. Break it a part into tiny pieces. Week one just blow a B (call and response rhythms) you can show your 4th grader all of the first three notes and let your K try them but don't expect any more than just that first note. Second week second note etc. Once you have all three notes you can alternate between them. If you get the "Do it" teaching manual (which is important) There are call and response patterns that would be good for your 4th grader and really really good for your little one. Once your K is playing the first three notes reliably you can start these patterns but I'd go very, very slow. Maybe one line a week maybe two. I'd err on the side of too little. You want to keep it fun. If it becomes obvious that your little one wants and can handle more then you can certainly do that. I actually teach band but recently I have taught 3 second graders (which is ridiculously early but they are ALL doing well). I have also taught several family members recorder at that age. You can do it with a tiny one you just have to be prepared to go super slow and keep it fun. If they learn one or two songs a year then that's great. Don't expect them to have the ability to sit and practice for a half hour (or even 10 minutes). By second grade they actually can sit and practice. When I was teaching little ones recorder I'd take the, kids on a walk, sing a song, find a sunny spot, teach them a note, do some call and response patterns and then walk home. But I live in the country so that worked nicely for me. I did it ALL by rote. I wouldn't recommend doing too much note reading with the little one. You can make flash cards to teach your 4th grader and include the K with that. As long as they are not trying to play and read at the same time. It's a developmental thing, it's very hard to do two things at once at that age. The great thing about the Froseth Book is that once your 4th grader breezes past your K (which will definitely happen) your K can still participate by singing the songs. Everything is a song. Another thing you can do (which is not in the book but easily added) is listen to the CD (which is actually quite pleasant to listen to) and do movement activities (pat-clap think patty cake you can make up your own.) I try to incorporate movement into beginning band as much as possible. With little ones it is THE most important thing you can do (aside from singing). That said I am not familiar with the other method and I am really not a recorder teacher. Yay for you for doing music with your kids.

Well I just tested my 14 year old and the testing experience is quite an ordeal. Your son sounds like mine which means only half of the test will be testing his deficiency. The other half will test his strengths. And you'll get to see the difference. I doubt it will hurt his self esteem. He is probably well aware of his issues and getting a number won't be a huge surprise. It is a bit fatiguing so try not to schedule too much while you are doing it. Give him treats and rest during the process. Think about what torture the SAT would be with a 25 minute essay. I don't know about you but my son would hand in a blank page. It takes him 25 minutes to remember his name (I am exaggerating, but still).

Click on the tab entitled "related materials".

IQ is more or less distributed over a bell curve. That means that there will be considerably more kids closer to the cut off. If the cut off is 130, then the majority of kids in the program will be between 130-145 IQ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation From what I understand, the standard deviation of the wisc is 15 so 130 is 2 standard deviations from the mean, roughly the top 2% any score above 145 is the top .1% (which would more or less translate into the top 4% of a gifted program) So in a class of 50 gifted kids only 2 would score above 145. The likely hood that there is ANY child in the program with an IQ above 180 is very, very small. And as far as I know the WISC doesn't differentiate IQs that high. Having a very, very bright kid is unfortunately more of a problem that you might realize. I think kids on the lower end (IQ130) have a way easier time fitting in to your typical GT program. Still, high IQ kids are interesting....

If you decide to go with barton you can contact them for placement. See this page on the barton site. http://www.bartonreading.com/levels.html#faq "If your student HAS had prior Orton-Gillingham-based tutoring, or for some other reason, you think the student has already mastered the skills taught in our early levels, let us know. We will then send you the post-test of our first few levels so you can determine the best place for that student to start." I can't speak to the differences. I have only used Barton.

My two dyslexic kids have completely different profiles of strengths. My little DD7 is extremely visual and has been playing with Legos all week. We are all having a bit of spring burn out so we have been taking a break from a more "disciplined" routine. This is really a perfect question for us right now because in this little "unschooling" hiatus, my kids are gravitating towards their strengths. Yesterday I got out the ZOME which is really DDs strength. DS has some whacky visual issues that make things like zome challenging for him but he is 6 and a half years older and he's figured out how to reason out visual challenges so we all played together and made platonic solid hats. It was fun DD is out in the living room playing zome right now. DS14 when left two his own devices is working on an MIT OCW math for computer science and ...interestingly enough... Wheelock's Latin. I am slightly shocked that my dyslexic kid is working through this happily, on his own. I will have to arrange for something for him next year to help him along the way. I think he likes the challenge of the structure of the language. And here is the real amazing thing. Yesterday my 14 year old son woke up and ... rearranged his room and completely cleaned it.:001_smile: Holy Moly. It looks great. He was "tired of all the clutter and needed a place for his books". I think I will "take a break" more often. How awesome!

:iagree: Totally! C-rods here. They help a ton in the chapter on squares. Makes me wish I had more.

I am fairly sure these have all been mentioned but... Favorite book on Dyslexia? Overcoming Dyslexia-great all around resource Dyslexic Advantage-nice feel good read to remind you of the good things going on Mislabled Child- really good book on the brain and learning Favorite website? http://www.dys-add.com/ http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com http://dyslexicadvantage.com/ Favorite curriculum? The Teaching Company http://www.thegreatcourses.com/greatcourses.aspx http://artofproblemsolving.com These are NOT dyslexic curricula, but I think it's important to find what your child is GOOD at and pursue those things most of the time. We should all have a different list here. Most fruitful therapy? Barton! :001_wub: http://www.bartonreading.com/ I totally agree that we should have a dyslexic resources sticky!

http://mcgt.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/%CB%86x-Giftedness-Asp.Dis_.Checklist.pdf You can try this checklist. They say that if you get most checks in the GT column than giftedness interventions are more appropriate, if it's equally balanced then you should get an evaluation and pursue both gt and aspie interventions. I am sure that my sons giftedness has caused MORE problems for him than his learning disability. So it's not like you're off the hook and it will be smooth sailing if these issues are caused by her GT side? Have you looked at SENG? http://www.sengifted.org/resources/resource-library

:iagree: The funny thing is, I am homeschooling...through a charter. They almost always leave me alone, so they usually aren't that bad. But then I decided I needed to document DS's disability... it's like this van full of keystone-cop educators pored into my house bonking me on the head with their educational advice. Luckily they weren't *actually* in my house. Still it feels that they have no sense of personal space. (The reality is that I am pretty sure it is all coming from one woman. But it feels like a van load of cartoon characters) In reality the majority of people in the room felt my son was delightful. It mirrors his social ability. He likes some people and pretty much ignores everyone else. I don't see this as pathological at all. No one in my family wants the school to help with my child's social development and even academically I don't really need their help (though I wouldn't turn my nose up at speech services, the slp is nice). He told me the special ed teacher frowned the whole time she tested him. I really dislike it when people don't like my kid and want me to fix him to fit some preconceived mold. But if they want to change something, maybe helping him with the problem that he has actually been diagnosed with instead of trying to make him into some kind of kid that *you* like. He's my kid after all, and I like him.

Do you ever get bad advice? I just got my son tested and it was shown that he hassevere word retrieval problems and the advice that I was given was to involve him in a school competition that involved answering timed questions. Huh????? Seriously. It's like saying "my kid can't swim" and having some expert tell you that you ought to send him into shark infested waters. Where in the world do schools get their personnel from? They are so interested in "properly socializing" my perfectly happy introverted kid that they completely forgot what the neuropsych said in her report. All I want is extra time on tests. I think DS will qualify but I am seriously wondering if it wouldn't have been worth it to spend $ so I didn't have to hear idiotic suggestions. Educators should have to take a Hippocratic oath :ack2:

Wow, yay. I didn't see this! :party:

The chapter on perfect squares is really cool (especially the stuff in the practice book). What is the sum of the first 101 odd numbers?

Ditto on what OhE said. I am focusing on writing skills. That's where DS has the most trouble. Teaching Company is a fabulous resource. I think with a dyslexic it is important to find your child's strengths and focus on thos while persistently remediating things that are frustrations. DS absolutely loves TC lectures. I toyed around with him taking notes this year. It ultimately fell to the wayside. He tends to remember it all. Still when he hits a certain level he will need to write things down. I know this because when he was at mathcamp he had such an experience. This was great because now he sees why taking notes is an important skill. DS has such great N strengths that he tends to remember almost everything from the TC lectures. They are strongly narrative in their teaching. This would look different with a hands on dyslexic (my guy is extremely cerebral). Have you seen Dyslexic Advantage? My youngest is more like what you describe. I haven't thought that far ahead yet so I am interested in what others might have to say.

Thanks for all of the replies. The question that I still have is What services might be helpful for him? Is there anything that the school could do to help him with his remaining issues? Or is helping him at home sufficient. I have a friend that is an SLP. I think I'll ask her opinion. Half of me thinks that extra time would be fine. It is certainly my primary goal. However I was a bit surprised that rapid naming was in the less than 1st percentile. I am wondering if I should evaluate for vision problems (is this something I would be able to get the school to do). Perhaps there is some visual processing problem going. How do you proceed in having this evaluated? Does it make sense to look at this. Mostly it's word finding but he it was picture naming that was the lowest and although still pretty high his block design was significantly lower than other perceptual reasoning. Other things I can do to help with word finding. I don't mind doing them myself. Slow is fine but I think his retrieval problems still frustrate him. The SLP gave me "Help for Word Finding" so that's where I plan to start.

So the neuropsych report is in and it confirms everything I have observed. My son is officially a 2e dyslexic. Verbal and Perceptual IQ are off the charts and working memory is also really high and then there is processing speed (insert ominous music here). (14th percentile:tongue_smilie:) She did the battery of Dyslexia tests. He did great on some, even phonological processing (probably from 10 years of barton). However single word reading and sight words were at a 3rd grade level (with other reading scores in the 96th percentile). He's 14 and reading Ancients right now. He read Dickens in the 6th grade so he is a good reader. At least when he is reading a book. Not as good with disorienting standardized tests and apparently really bad at individual words. And then there was rapid naming, yikes! Rapid picture naming was in the less than 1st percentile. So the neuropsych has confirmed dyslexia and even calls it a reading disorder. We also did a speech evaluation. She documented word finding problems but her tests did not show anything that would qualify for an IEP through speech because she didn't give any timed tests. Expressive language was WAY lower than receptive but not enough to qualify for anything (except a few articulation problems). She gave me a book on word finding exercises that we could do at home to help him get a little faster and more automatic with getting words out. Anyhow that is the update. I am still waiting on the initial IEP part 2. I am not sure how easy it will be to get an IEP but I got the feeling that I probably could if I pushed. He has significant enough challenges especially when compared to his potential. The question I have is, is it worth the effort to push an IEP rather than a 504? Really my main goal in all of this was to get extra time on tests. Still, I want to do everything I can for my son, so if and IEP would be better, than I'll try to encourage the team to move in that direction. I am still waiting for the special ed report (she did the achievement tests) I have a feeling they will find a problem with writing but we'll see. He is not a terrible writer but I imagine he will test poorly. He says standardized tests were dreamed up to torture kids like him. They test everything he is bad at and nothing he is good at. We'll see. In the meantime I want to be prepared and figure out what I should be asking for (if anything). Thanks for any advice.

I don't disagree with you but IQ scores of 2e kids vary wildly depending on the test, tester and testing conditions. So you can't take one test and say the kid isn't gifted. You really have to look at the big picture. If it quacks like a duck... If you do go that route make sure you make a written request to the PS. I made the mistake of getting a verbal agreement which delayed the testing for a year. I finally figured out that I needed to put the request in writing. So don't forget to do that. The more serious problem that you can run into with a 2e kid is an evaluation where the gt issues are pathologized and the ld issues are completely missed.That is what I am running into with one of the people I am working with. Luckily she is not the only one evaluating and I have two other specialists that are hitting the proverbial nail on the head. I am not saying she shouldn't go to the PS, it could be very beneficial. But I wouldn't hesitate to get a second opinion if it seems appropriate.

This was totally and completely DS. OG can completely solve reading and spelling issues for a dyslexic if you do it early enough (or at least vastly improve them). Math is weirder though. I completely threw away any notion of order in the math curriculum. I let him pick what he wanted to do every day. And once and awhile I'd make him do the "hard things" which were often 2-3 years behind the other math he was working. Long division kind of took forever for him. I had to wait until he could really prove the algorithm to himself. My son could multiply a 2 digit number by a three digit number in his head in the first grade but didn't have his times tables memorized until.. untill...wait I am not sure he does now. Well he's really fast at figuring them out so it doesn't matter. More than one path leads to Rome. When your DD can't add those numbers? Is it in her head or on paper? Sometimes one modality is stronger than the other. Do manipulatives help or confuse her? (DS would have been completely perplexed by them but DD often needs them as she has strong spacial strengths.) Can she do some of the BA pages? DD is finding some WAY easier than others. You can let her skip around, Grogg won't come sit on you or anything.:) FWIW my very gifted mathematician son might have been a poor fit for BA the numbers would have been too hard for him. But he worked through Intro to P and C at 8. He was nowhere near ready for Algebra but pretty much done with arithmetic. It can be hard to find the "sweet spot" for these kids. Oh cool, I see you found a good NP. That is awesome. You know you are so lucky getting this done early. I just didn't have the $$ to do an eval when DS was young and I really didn't trust our school to have anything resembling a clue about DS. Luckily the NP at our school now is pretty awesome so I think I might get something out of the process (other than a headache, which is certainly becoming one side effect).

You are not the only one. The problem with 2e is you can get this kid who is on the one hand really ready for algebra and on the other hand can't write 2+3 on paper. And then you try teach them "at their level" well what level is that 1st grade? 9th grade? And then you get GT actually looking like pathology. Increased sensitivity, impulse control, inability to relate to peers. It can look like ASD or AD/HD but it also commonly coexists with those issues. So teasing them apart and figuring out which is which can be tricky. You have the normal garden variety asynchrony with gifted kids and then you have LDs. And then there is the problem of finding a professional that knows what they are talking about. Some understand GT kids and some really, really don't. I am in the middle of my own "thing" right now with this. I am having DS evaluated and two out of the three folks I am dealing with are right spot on and then I talk to the third and I wonder if perhaps a different kids wasn't in the room with her. So you need to be careful to find someone who knows how to evaluate the GT piece.

Holy moly, I don't know how I missed that. I tell you that *I* am a little ADD. Sill, I think taking the pressure off where you can as far as school goes might also help some of the behavioral issues. Do you think that the aspie traits are causing the issues or something else? Or both?

Yes, don't about math facts. Really. Dyslexics learn them differently. I have to dig up this video for you. "The Mathematician Who Can't Add Up" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfSz3D5CCSQ I did the same thing as you when DS was that age. I got him great math books. Also what helped him was doing math on walks. We did that for about a year or two. He could do it out loud but not on paper. And games, don't forget games. No other great advice. But I think you are doing the right thing.

:grouphug: Oh dear. Hang in there. You are doing the right thing getting an evaluation.

:iagree: Yes, the IG became indispensable after lesson 20.

When my son (14) was little he really disliked anything that involved writing. Dyslexic. So any academic subject was slightly unpleasant to teach. It was really hard to either overwhelm him (too much writing) or bore him to tears (not intellectually challenging enough). When he got his first AOPS book he went from basically hating academics to loving them. I could tell right away because instead of groaning when he did his work he would shriek with joy. The math in their books is the hook. AOPS books really do have math as an intrinsic reward. So I think many of us are just excited that they are making a book for younger kids. I think the beast format just came out of the mind of one of their geeky staff. It's cute but not the main attraction to the curriculum. It is meant for either a highly gifted child or one that likes to work (think) hard. Or both. I don't think you can really tell if a child is "mathy" or not until you give them real math. Stripes suggestions (Math For Smarty Pants, Penrose...) are good for that but so is Beast Academy. Many elementary math programs are lacking in higher order thinking skills. There are a handful of good elementary math programs out there that incorporate these thinking skills. So far beast blows them away (at least for a very bright child). What makes beast better is that almost all of the problems are challenging. I don't have to keep skipping ahead. It's so nice to know that DD is going to have challenge on every page and sometimes it's going to be so hard that she won't even be able to finish the page. Many of us don't want to wait until prealgebra to give our kids that type of challenge.

I love the AOPS discrete math books. If it were me I'd do them first. You theoretically could do them after intermediate algebra but they are easier and so much fun. I would not consider statistics a proper substitute. I have more pure math leanings and statistics was like sticking bamboo under my fingernails whereas "real" math is like having Christmas ever time you open a textbook. (apologies to lovers of statistics and applied math in general) Your DS is in the 6th grade? It is a great time to open the doors to awesomely cool math. You have plenty of time to get to Calc and I am pretty sure you have almost enough math to do algebra based physics with the AOPS into to Algebra book.