We've used SWI-A and one thier theme-based books. There methods gets pen to paper quickly, starting with creating keyword outlines of material provided to retelling that same story using the outline, but in the writers own words. After that there are a number of different style patterns that are introduced and included in the assignments. The knock is that the writing can sound odd due to the use of several different tools in each paragraph. Keep in mind, as the student matures they should be able to decide when it's appropriate to use each tool and will not include every single tool in every paragraph. Many detractors overlook this. We use it along with WWE. I'm hoping to continue with WWS but it sounds as though that will be too much. On cost, the IEW material has a strong secondary market. I just saw there spelling program go used for 70% of new. I follow the used market closely and that pricing is not unusual. Also, if you try their material and don;t like it, they will refund your money 100% and that includes shipping. YOu do have to buy from them for this and there is no time limit. You can complete the program and decide it didn't meet your goals and they will issue a refund. Jim

Is this all just a follow-up to what happened in Greeville, SC last year? http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/the-raving-writer/life-on-the-border/

I remember this one from 2011, just after she spoke in Greenville, SC: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/the-raving-writer/life-on-the-border/

Within our CC group we have kids that have received the award (and earned it) six times and they are 11 yo. It amazes me, but when I've chatted about it, I'm told they knew all the material - the test was not scaled back toward age. So it's interest and skill based. My 10yo did it for the first time this year, in his second year with CC.

As I understand it, you are correct. 8/7 and Algebra 1/2 are the prep books. 8/7 includes more review of the concept covered in prior books but get the student where they need to be to move into Algebra 1.

If you do continue with Saxon and if he scores above 80% of the last five or six tests he should be ready for Algebra 1. We do a lesson a day but I'm thinking of moving toward the timed lesson mentioned earler. I like the idea of sticking with math through the summer. If a student is struggling at the end of the year, what can we expect after a couple months away from the subject. We don't shool year round but I've always felt that it's the right approach. More week-long breaks along the way.

Before moving on, what do you mean by Saxon being "too much?" Too difficult? Lessons taking too long? If it's the length of a lesson spread it out over two days when necessary. I don't see a problem with that. Maybe say, "we're doing math for set period of time a day," and ask for an honest effort during that period of time. Pick it up the next day where it was left and start the timer again. I'm not a fan of skipping problems in Saxon. Those that helped develop it were clear that is was designed expecting the completion of each and every problem. Each lesson presents just a handful of problems testing knowledge of the newest material. The rest review the past ten or more lessons. That provides variety.

Love this question. We use Saxon. I see it statede all the time that it is "drill and kill." I see it differently. Every morning there is a math fact sheet. We started by just completing them. As we went along the timer started and it's become a game to see how fast ds can complete the sheet with accuracy. Then there is the Mental Math section. Many state Saxon does not do mental math but it starts every lesson. Looking ahead I see entire lessons on mental math. The new material is presented incrementally. Concepts build over time. There are several review questions that tackle the new matreial presented. Then there is the dreaded thirty math problems. This is where many pick and chose problems or do odds/evens. When I went through school, starting about 1970, we would complete more than thirty problems a day and they would be exactly the same. If the topic was long division I would do nearly fifty long division problems. There was no where to hide. You knew it or you didn't. If the term "drill and kill" is going to be used then that's an example. In Saxon, the thirty problems review the past ten lessons or so. Only a few the the thirty problems presented cover the new material as it will be reviewed, a few problems a day, over the next couple weeks. That is not "drill and kill" and I don't see how anyone can paint it as such. The thirty problems contain word problems, clock/graphing problems, and straight calculation problems. It's a good mix that flows. No lesson should take more than an hour from start to finish. My son likes to complete the first half of the thirty immediately after the lesson and the rest later in the day. Art Reed, who worked with John Saxon and has used Saxon material in the classroom, warns against picking and chosing problems or completing only odd/evens. He states that each concept being reviewed often has two questions in a lesson. They ask the same type of question but from a different angle. He states, strongly, that by picking and chosing students might only see one way a question might be asked, though there are multiple ways to ask the same question. I agree and we do every problem and it's not that much to ask. Of course, this is just my opinion, but I hope its clear that we like Saxon and we don not believe it's "drill and kill" as many suggest. In fact, because of the variety of the problems it's the opposite. I seem to remember the ever popular Singapore havinglists of similar problems to be completed, certainly more problems than Saxon. Nothing against Singapore. I'm not commenting on it. I'm commenting on the off-base description often applied to Saxon. Jim

We just completed our second year of CC and I am constantly weighing whether it is worth it or not. It is expensive, especially considering the change in the timeline for the coming year and the new investment in the guide and cards. It does disrupt the week, making our school a four day week since our oldest ds also attends Essentials in the afternoon. Foundations has proved what is possible regarding memory work. Ds took ownership late in the year and easily earned the title of Memory Master. He truely knows every single piece of information from the past year. I just shake my head when I look at the stack of cards. He's already talking about matching that feat next year and the year after so he will have matered all three cycles. We do treat CC as an outside activity. It does not replace anything in our schedule, though we've been slacking on history (which kills me) and it does offer a safety net and a jumping off point for many, many discusions. This year, we're starting the logic stage cycle so his CC history work will follow what we're doing at home, somewhat. His presentations skills have inproved greatly, so much that he recognizes the need top prepare in advance, make eye contact, and we're working on some movement. I view Essentials as a review. The math games simply bolster the math concepts we study at home. CC uses IEW writing and while we left our writing at that this year I thought it was "light." and have the B level contunation course all set for at home and will be purchasing WWS. (I want to take a good look at it and use much of it since the IEW/WWE combo has worked for us.) So, yes it's expensive. It has ds answering to someone besides mom and dad. He has developed some school friends. His ability to retain information is impressive (it was always very good). It offers a review ofwhat we're doing at home in grammar, writing, etc. I could see building the at home work around CC, using the weekly session as a jumping off point for several subjects at home. That would make the cost a non issue. What am I saying? I see benefits. I certainly see the cost. I wonder if we could use that day at home. Jim

We use Fix-It aling with their writing program. We also use WWE. It approaches writing from a completely different angle. If I let ds choice what to start his day with he'd pick Fix-It and ask to do two-four passages. We whiteboard the passage and he uses skills learned from FLL to mark the edits. I look at it as a warm up. It has him thinking about paragraph changes, complete sentences, and strong words. We've seen that bleed over to his writing. It's a winner for us and given the number of stories included is a bargin. Jim

We're nearing the end of FLL 4 and, unfortunately, the series. We'll be moving to Hake. Like Saxon math, lessons are short, an appear doable by the student alone. We're planning on starting it with ds but than backing off and making ourselves available as needed. Jim

We do each and every problem. Listening to Art Reed, who worked with John Saxon, he recommends completing every problem as given. Apparently, the thought was that problems test knowledge of the same concept but is a different way so it is important to do every problem listed. For me, doing thirty problems is not too much to ask. I remember completing many more than that and they all tested a single concept. Since lessons review two to three weeks worth of material it is not thirty of the same problem. The varied types of problems should make thirty pass by reasonably quickly. For us, it is far from the "drill and kill" so many complain about. Art did offer that the parent does not need to check homework every day. Instead, they can look to the test results for guidance and review problem areas, picking out practice problems from the lesson pages or from the back of the book. Jim

We use Fix-It four days a week as a warm up. Our main program has been FLL (1-4) but we're switching to Hake next fall since SWB will not have the next book available. Programs like FLL teach the parts of speach and how they relate to one another. Fix-It is best described as an exercise in editing. To do that you need to know the basics of grammar such as capitalization, puctuation, etc. So it does blur the lines in many respects but I would not rely on it as a grammar program. I have to say, it's a task ds looks forwrd two and often asks to do two segments back-to-back. Given the increase in workload next year I'm considering doing just that, having him complete two segments twice per week. Jim

You should visit Art Reed's web site and read his newsletter. He recommends certain editions for each level. RR has the recommended editions and as a PP stated, for a good price.

We use bothe IEW and WWE. I like both programs and theey seem to arrive at a similar place, just take different paths. The earlier comments about IEW resulting in ds considering word choices is right on target. Starting with the KWO has him doing the same mental exercise as WWE. Working from source material gets pen to paper with no problem and, definately, with no tears. We're continuing with both (SICC A) in the fall and jumping up to WWS.

They will be on Cycle 1, Ancients. We just completed our second year and our son is 10yo and in 4th grade. If you have been working on memorizing the grammar of math, history, science, etc. CC will back that effort. If not, he will have the experience of learning how to retain info. This year we added the afternoon Essentials program. There they cover grammar, IEW writing, and play math games.

The scripted lessons stop with Saxon 3. After that we're read along with ds when needed, but he's reached a point he can read the lessons and ask questions if needed. We do do the mental math exercise with him daily. There are videos available from several sources. Search for threads on Saxon videos. We're going to purchase Art Reed's video for 6/5. It's part of our push toward self relience.

Tara, Thanks for the update. We're close to completing FLL4 and, like many, have been considering options. Saxon math works for us so we took a look at Hake at the hs show in Greenville and apparently found the lone remaining copy of Hake 5. We bought it but I've been wondering whether level 5 was the correct starting point - FLL seems fairly strong. Glad to see the switch is working for you and the level is appropriate. Keep us upddated. Jim

Be careful doing this. I've read, and maybe I'm wrong, but the placement tests are geared toward those that have not been using Saxon. A Saxon student might know enough of the method and with a bit of a stretch answer questions correctly but not understand the why part. I believe that was in Art Reed's book. Of course, I don't believe in skipping lessons. If a program is well designed every lesson and every exercise is inserted on the pages for a reason. We don't do selected problems here. 30 a day seems reasonable, especially since they review a number of lessons and are not variations of the same problem. The latter is drill and kill. Why it's often said I don't believe Saxon is drill and kill. A bit off subject but that's touchy for me.

According to Art Reed, who worked with John Saxon and taught students using Saxon, "Students who struggle through the last five or six tests in Math 8/7, receiving test scores below seventy-five, should proceed to Algebra 1/2 rather than attempting Algebra 1." It sounds as though you'll skip Algebra 1/2 and go directly to Algebra 1.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that SWB recommends skipping the writing portion of VIE, and Rod & Staff. That FLL works so well for us but not so much for you is a testiment to the hsing movement, where we can match the tools we use to our individual child's learning style. I love, love, love it when parents make the effort to do what will serve their child best instead of just dropping off and letting someone else worry about it. :cheers2: to all of you that make the extra effort. (Btw, that's the beverage of your choice.)

Whenever I've looked it up it seems expensive relative to FLL or Hake. Have you looked at Hake. Lessons are short and there is constant review, much like Saxon math. Cold lean toward independent use.

Check with other local homeschoolers. Perhaps someone has a copy you can borrow as needed.

That would be my goal. A short break from formal math - games, books, etc, then back to it though maybe at a reduced rate. I'd want to continue through the summer. I hate having to backtrack in the fall. A light summer schedule would keep ds thinking and moving forward instead of back. Months off from school, whose idea was that? How gets months off from work for all that supposed family time? Now, if I could just convince those that live under the same roof.

FLL is very different than 1/2 but is still scripted so not very independant. IEW's spelling program Phonetic Zoo might fit the bill. You do sit down for a few minutes at the start of each lesson, a new spelling rule, but then the words are on cd. My son listens to them off his i-pod. We also use IEW's writing program. The SWI series can be watch video and go and we have yet to run into any discussions of faith, if that is the possible issue. It might be that you don't like the approach and that's fair enough. How about writing SWB's way. Her taped sessions are excellent and cheap. I listen to them regularly even though we use IEW material. We also use WWE. I'll also ask ds to write a few lines about something he's read, though I don't do it enough. Honestly, he's not reading enough and that means the opportunities are few. That needs to be changed. Jim