Vent? Grieve? Not sure what this is

[NorthernBeth]

Feeling blue and at a bit of a loss.  We just got back the results this morning from the Psychologist about the IQ testing results.  They used the Woodcock-Johnson, and told me he was Mildly Intellectually Disabled.  They said I should rule out University but that it wasn't a "death sentence"  He "might get as high as grade 6 or 7 by the time he was an adult."  They had a weird anomaly in that he actually tested higher on the Achievement Tests that go along with it than would be predicted by his IQ.  Then they said some slightly odd things and said if we decide to send him back to school , we should call them back and then will re-test, and that sometimes IQ scores go up.  I am a little bit in shock, as before this year, we had not heard anything about concerns of him being intellectually delayed-- certainly none of his teachers ever suggested it when he was still attending school. 

 

Then we got home and met up a few minutes later with his psychotherapist/ counsellor.  She was annoyed by the report and felt it did not have anything all that helpful in it and said to remember that those are based on a normative population and that if he has ASD ( which she believes he has) then he is not part of the normative population and that the test results may not be exactly valid.  Then she whispered so he couldn't hear-- " He is brilliant."  Note- we are still waiting to hear back from SLP to see if the results from the ASD Parent Screener warrant further investigation. 

 

 

He has always been such an odd mixture of highs and lows that I am struggling to make sense of it all. 

 

This is my son who just now reprimanded me for leaving the cat in the dark because the cat couldn't see.  I pointed out that cats can see in the dark-- and he said-- Mom, they need SOME light to reflect back from their eyes.

 

 This is the same son who yesterday had to quit playing dominoes because he was getting so frustrated about the adding.  A few minutes later he came to find me and complained,  mom, I am adjective.   Uhm--- you mean agitated.  Oh yeah-- then he proceeded to look up the game of dominoes on the computer -on the Common Sense Media site to see if any other children had experienced problems of agitation with the horrible game of dominoes.  I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. 

 

I am just- not sure where to go from here.  They offered to help us arrange to get tutoring support with Kumon or Sylvan.  I don't really think those will help much, but maybe? We are already using Barton, and I have some Ronit Bird stuff on the way, and I am waiting for some money to come in to try to order CLE. 

 

In some ways nothing has changed, and somehow in some ways it seems like everything has.  I can't figure out where to put this information in my head.  I was already aware he was having severe troubles with school, and people couldn't seem to figure out why.  I tried to follow up and ask about dyslexia testing but because our province doesn't use dyslexia as a funding criteria, they didn't really see any point and felt it would be a SLP's job anyways.  

 

I just feel odd.  And tired.  And sad.   

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by NorthernBeth

[PeterPan]

We've had other people get told ID only to have a later psych totally reverse that and say gifted with SLDs. And yes what you're describing would be gifted with SLDs. How old is he?

 

It sounds like the person was spitting on you, honestly. Like really, his IQ will go up after he finally gets taught be a real teacher???!!!???!!! Like what have you been doing all this time? What idiots.

 

If you wanna talk trash about psychs, we can talk trash. You can pay $250-300 an hour and have someone say life-altering things that put you on a wrong track, that keep you from getting the correct interventions, and you have no ability to demand a refund, slam them, call them out on it, nothing. No, because psychs are GOD'S GIFT TO THE WORLD AND KNOW EVERYTHING AND ALWAYS GET IT RIGHT, you are wrong, you are idiot or unqualified by their edict, and you are dumb.

 

I've been to a lot of psychs now. Well maybe not, but enough. I like 'em and I have nothing personal. But could ONE on the planet, one in our country, one in the state be wrong about something? Absolutely. That's why there are 2nd opinions. If a kid has a wide range of scores, it would be good to have a 2nd opinion. If the person spent more time slamming you than understanding your work, it's time for a 2nd opinion. If they have an obvious homeschool bias (which frankly is what you're describing), it's time for a 2nd opinion. If they DIDN'T LISTEN, it's time for a 2nd opinion.

 

I took my ds to a psych saying he flaps like a pterodactyl and was told well of course he does, he's active. I said he recites paragraphs from books, and they're like of course he does, he's gifted. I said he doesn't play well with other kids, and they're like oh yeah he does because look at how nicely he got on with the kid with ASD in the lobby. I said he didn't understand the concept of 5 till I spent a month on it with RB, and they're like so what he answered the math questions on my test. That's called not listening, blowing me off. AND the (boy I really have no nice adjectives for him) psych said that I was UNQUALIFIED to teach my ds.

 

So I paid $250 to be told lots of wrong stuff, ignored, contradicted, and slammed. Later multiple other psychs said hello, obviously autism, obviously SLDs. But do I get a refund? Do I have recourse?

 

You're cool with it if it's ID. It's ok to grieve. But I think when you haven't been listened to and have been attacked and when the analysis doesn't fit the data, it's good to get a 2nd opinion. And no, Kumon would be crap for this. ASD plus significant SLDs. Why would you go to Kumon? I've never been there. They must be hiring IS at $60 an hour, right? Not. That alone tells you that psych was smoking a vanity pipe.

[ktgrok]

Agree that you can't get a real IQ score often on a kid with ASD. They don't focus on the questions, they don't understand the directions, they are stressed about the whole thing, and then you add in learning disabilities and yeah. We called around and found a psych that was willing to work with my son. She gave lots of breaks, mixed up the order of the subtests to keep him from getting bored, etc. And then gave two scores, the normal way of scoring and then another way, that dropped some of his learning disability effected areas. A GAI I think?

[NorthernBeth]

We've had other people get told ID only to have a later psych totally reverse that and say gifted with SLDs. And yes what you're describing would be gifted with SLDs. How old is he?

 

It sounds like the person was spitting on you, honestly. Like really, his IQ will go up after he finally gets taught be a real teacher???!!!???!!! Like what have you been doing all this time? What idiots.

 

If you wanna talk trash about psychs, we can talk trash. You can pay $250-300 an hour and have someone say life-altering things that put you on a wrong track, that keep you from getting the correct interventions, and you have no ability to demand a refund, slam them, call them out on it, nothing. No, because psychs are GOD'S GIFT TO THE WORLD AND KNOW EVERYTHING AND ALWAYS GET IT RIGHT, you are wrong, you are idiot or unqualified by their edict, and you are dumb.

 

I've been to a lot of psychs now. Well maybe not, but enough. I like 'em and I have nothing personal. But could ONE on the planet, one in our country, one in the state be wrong about something? Absolutely. That's why there are 2nd opinions. If a kid has a wide range of scores, it would be good to have a 2nd opinion. If the person spent more time slamming you than understanding your work, it's time for a 2nd opinion. If they have an obvious homeschool bias (which frankly is what you're describing), it's time for a 2nd opinion. If they DIDN'T LISTEN, it's time for a 2nd opinion.

 

I took my ds to a psych saying he flaps like a pterodactyl and was told well of course he does, he's active. I said he recites paragraphs from books, and they're like of course he does, he's gifted. I said he doesn't play well with other kids, and they're like oh yeah he does because look at how nicely he got on with the kid with ASD in the lobby. I said he didn't understand the concept of 5 till I spent a month on it with RB, and they're like so what he answered the math questions on my test. That's called not listening, blowing me off. AND the (boy I really have no nice adjectives for him) psych said that I was UNQUALIFIED to teach my ds.

 

So I paid $250 to be told lots of wrong stuff, ignored, contradicted, and slammed. Later multiple other psychs said hello, obviously autism, obviously SLDs. But do I get a refund? Do I have recourse?

 

You're cool with it if it's ID. It's ok to grieve. But I think when you haven't been listened to and have been attacked and when the analysis doesn't fit the data, it's good to get a 2nd opinion. And no, Kumon would be crap for this. ASD plus significant SLDs. Why would you go to Kumon? I've never been there. They must be hiring IS at $60 an hour, right? Not. That alone tells you that psych was smoking a vanity pipe.

 

Thank-you.  It was just so weird. He is supposed to be the guy that does Autism evaluations here.  But he seemed to think other people are responsible for them and he just helps them out.  So if THEY ask for the assessment-- that is different.  But he did not seem very willing to look at the idea because I ( the foster mom) was asking.  Part of it is the weird medical care system that exists overall but especially for Native Canadians here.  I have some other lines out that don't involve him and I am hoping to have better luck with those people.  Since I am not paying him, the government is, it is hard to get around.  I have to just keep following up on other referrals that might pan out as professional people willing to listen.    I wish our counsellor for him had the credentials to diagnose as she is wonderful and has worked with him the most of anyone, and really validates my concerns about ASD.  I mean maybe not-- but I just wish someone would actually asses him.

I have literally described echolalia to people who should know what it is, and they say he is just processing language.  Well-- probably-- but it is still echolalia!    

 

The crazy thing is- I am a Spec. Ed. teacher-- now our system is way less organized than the U.S. system.  I have been teaching for 16 years.  I have mentored countless teachers.  I have worked as the acting principal at my old school.  But now that I am a homeschooling mom, I must not know anything?? Whereas, I feel I have learned way more since our family started homeschooling than I ever learned in our teacher training.  There, they really looked down on specific diagnoses- that was just "labelling" and gave us lists of possible interventions to try and see what worked.  I think they are slowly moving out of that mindset where everything is just loosely-- " a learning disability" without any more follow-up.  But it is moving pretty slow.  Too slow for my son. 

 

I just suddenly felt like a bunch of doors closed and I felt a little overwhelmed.  The outlook is pretty dreadful up here for kids who don't finish school. Do I just put him back in school and accept that they may not really teach him ( which is what happened before) and any lack of progress is blamed on the ADHD? But I am "protected" from people trying to blame us.  See I trusted the schools before, but I feel like they let us down. 

 

Or do we keep doing what we are doing--- trying to find where the weaknesses are and shore them up and play on his strengths as much as possible.  And be aware that any failures will be considered entirely my fault.  I know what I choose.  But am I making the right choice?

 

And if you say his IQ is one level, how can he possibly exceed that on the achievement tests and perform above it-- I keep thinking, okay either I must be the most amazing teacher ever, or you guys must have done something WRONG'!!

 

[popmom]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  What your son said about your cat being in the dark reminds me so much of my dd. I am sorry you are going through this. Such an emotional roller coaster. I don't have any advice--other than I agree w/ getting a second opinion. Just want you to know I'm with you. When I read your words, I see your heart for your son, and I know he's gonna be ok. These are such hard things, but you're a great mom. Thanks for sharing. 

[PeterPan]

There might be times where the good things that could happen in the school trump whether he's learning academically but it doesn't sound like this is one of those.

 

It sounds like you could do amazing things with him with more resources. If you can't make more evals happen, maybe move on to the more the important question if what to DO about it.

[8filltheheart]

The first round of testing we had done with our Aspie produced results that did not mesh with what I knew about my ds. His WISC score put his IQ around 97 or something like that.

 

Fast forward a few yrs. When he was retested, the psy acknowledged just how anxious our ds is. (His anxiety disables him.) anyway, he spent a couple of hrs just talking to ds trying to get to know him to help hm relax. The test results for that testing session put his IQ in the upper 130s but (can't remember the wording anymore) not accurate bc his stanine gaps were more than2 standard deviations. His processing speeds were in the 2nd and 18th percentiles. (His first round of testing they had been in the 1st and 3rd and that tester never even acknowledged that that data meant anything)

 

Testing results are as only good as the person performing the test and the acknowledgement of the testing limitations.

 

Fwiw, I would focus more on what you know about your child vs the test results. (For our ds, IQ is meaningless, anyway. He can't function bc of his anxiety, so that is what really matters.)

[NorthernBeth]

The first round of testing we had done with our Aspie produced results that did not mesh with what I knew about my ds. His WISC score put his IQ around 97 or something like that.

 

Fast forward a few yrs. When he was retested, the psy acknowledged just how anxious our ds is. (His anxiety disables him.) anyway, he spent a couple of hrs just talking to ds trying to get to know him to help hm relax. The test results for that testing session put his IQ in the upper 130s but (can't remember the wording anymore) not accurate bc his stanine gaps were more than2 standard deviations. His processing speeds were in the 2nd and 18th percentiles. (His first round of testing they had been in the 1st and 3rd and that tester never even acknowledged that that data meant anything)

 

Testing results are as only good as the person performing the test and the acknowledgement of the testing limitations.

 

Fwiw, I would focus more on what you know about your child vs the test results. (For our ds, IQ is meaningless, anyway. He can't function bc of his anxiety, so that is what really matters.)

 

Yeah, the anxiety thing is huge here too!  He will just shut down completely and feels like everything is too hard.  I know during the test, they were letting him come out for breaks and during one of the breaks, he was trying to convince me to just take off with him and not go back!   I had a hard time explaining to him, that that was just NOT one of the options.  And the anxiety and perfectionism are what kill us during school work, I agree.  It often makes it hard for me to tell if he is just scared or if he really doesn't get it.  Sometimes he can complain his way through a bunch of math problems while getting them all right.  ( sometimes not, too!)

 

I appreciate what you guys are telling me.  Yesterday, I just kind of felt like--- well , the LAW has spoken-- and his future is NON-EXISTENT!  Bleagh!! 

 

Fair enough.  I guess we just keep trucking along, building up his confidence and stamina.  

 

And the tester is a nice guy.  But he is an intern and I am pretty sure we are his first official IQ test.  He just started working in September.  So he will definitely not be modifying any test results or procedures.  His job right now is to learn how to do them "correctly". 

 

[Crimson Wife]

We've had other people get told ID only to have a later psych totally reverse that and say gifted with SLDs. And yes what you're describing would be gifted with SLDs. How old is he?

 

For a child with known language issues, traditional IQ tests can absolutely be too verbally-loaded, even the supposedly "non-verbal" portions.

 

We were told based on the Weschler test that my SN child was almost exactly average on her non-verbal IQ. But when she was tested on the completely non-verbal Leiter test, she scored in the gifted range. Her lowest subtest score on the Leiter was higher than the highest Weschler subtest. The difference between the two scores would be the same as the difference between ID and average.

 

Now with the language-based LD's, her performance is nowhere near what her non-verbal IQ would predict. Academically, she's performing at pretty much the level of her language (a 1st grader even though based on her chronological age she should be in 3rd). It's unclear at this point how much is a delay vs. how much a permanent deficit that she will never fully overcome.

 

If you can find someone to run a completely non-verbal IQ test like the Leiter or CTONI, I would recommend it. That would provide information about how much the language issues are hampering your child's performance.

[MistyMountain]

An IQ score on one occasion of testing definitely may not be accurate. They are not the be all end all for all kids and things can change anyway even if a kid performed at their best with optimal conditions. Plus there are lots of things that can get in the way of accurate results like language difficulties, anxiety, motor skills, boredom or just not having a long enough attention span etc.

Edited November 24, 2017 by MistyMountain

[NorthernBeth]

For a child with known language issues, traditional IQ tests can absolutely be too verbally-loaded, even the supposedly "non-verbal" portions.

 

We were told based on the Weschler test that my SN child was almost exactly average on her non-verbal IQ. But when she was tested on the completely non-verbal Leiter test, she scored in the gifted range. Her lowest subtest score on the Leiter was higher than the highest Weschler subtest. The difference between the two scores would be the same as the difference between ID and average.

 

Now with the language-based LD's, her performance is nowhere near what her non-verbal IQ would predict. Academically, she's performing at pretty much the level of her language (a 1st grader even though based on her chronological age she should be in 3rd). It's unclear at this point how much is a delay vs. how much a permanent deficit that she will never fully overcome.

 

If you can find someone to run a completely non-verbal IQ test like the Leiter or CTONI, I would recommend it. That would provide information about how much the language issues are hampering your child's performance.

 

Thanks, I will look into that. Verbal is definitely not his strength ( other than vocabulary- he usually tests high in that) I don't know if he would be gifted, but .... I was not sure about ID.  It was just strange to have 2 different practitioners have such completely different views about what he was capable of. 

 

[sbgrace]

The pyschologist we saw couldn't get an IQ on my son (Autism, ADHD). She did try--even with subtests when he scored low (and he'd score high on those--just up and down, depending on his ability to focus in the  moment essentially). In our case it was because of attention, hyperfocus on non-test related things, and just not caring at all about time limits--he wanted to talk to the tester instead. 

 

I think you're right to do what you can. I do know the feeling that it's all on you, succeed or fail. I believe I have a better chance of success than the traditional education system for my particular child. It sounds like you're in the same position. 

 

The truth, for my kid, is that his issues trump his base intelligence. They are life impeding. So I'm doing what I can to try to mediate those. 

[Megbo]

Yeah, the anxiety thing is huge here too!  He will just shut down completely and feels like everything is too hard.  I know during the test, they were letting him come out for breaks and during one of the breaks, he was trying to convince me to just take off with him and not go back!   I had a hard time explaining to him, that that was just NOT one of the options.  And the anxiety and perfectionism are what kill us during school work, I agree.  It often makes it hard for me to tell if he is just scared or if he really doesn't get it.  Sometimes he can complain his way through a bunch of math problems while getting them all right.  ( sometimes not, too!)

 

I appreciate what you guys are telling me.  Yesterday, I just kind of felt like--- well , the LAW has spoken-- and his future is NON-EXISTENT!  Bleagh!! 

 

Fair enough.  I guess we just keep trucking along, building up his confidence and stamina.  

 

And the tester is a nice guy.  But he is an intern and I am pretty sure we are his first official IQ test.  He just started working in September.  So he will definitely not be modifying any test results or procedures.  His job right now is to learn how to do them "correctly". 

 

 

This sounds like a huge factor to consider. Actually administering an IQ test isn't particularly difficult (I'm studying ed psych right now, and have learned a few assessment measures so far), but interpreting the results requires a level of expertise and experience that this intern clearly does not possess. 

 

My 7yo was assessed by an experienced psychologist last spring and I was really impressed with the way she broke down the results by index and even by subtest in some cases. She reported every score (including FSIQ), but explained which ones were valid indicators of his ability, which ones weren't, and how she'd come to those conclusions. She asked us several times whether her findings seemed to fit with what we know about our kid, and they did. This type of interpretation seems especially important for a child with the "odd mixture of highs and lows" you described in your first post. 

[Pawz4me]

This sounds like a huge factor to consider. Actually administering an IQ test isn't particularly difficult (I'm studying ed psych right now, and have learned a few assessment measures so far), but interpreting the results requires a level of expertise and experience that this intern clearly does not possess. 

 

My 7yo was assessed by an experienced psychologist last spring and I was really impressed with the way she broke down the results by index and even by subtest in some cases. She reported every score (including FSIQ), but explained which ones were valid indicators of his ability, which ones weren't, and how she'd come to those conclusions. She asked us several times whether her findings seemed to fit with what we know about our kid, and they did. This type of interpretation seems especially important for a child with the "odd mixture of highs and lows" you described in your first post. 

 

Yes, this.

 

When DS19 (ASD-1, GAD) was tested his psychologist calculated his FSIQ but she said not to put much faith in it. It puts him in high average territory. But his subtest scores are so incredibly spikey that she said the FSIQ was difficult to calculate with any degree of confidence and really didn't tell us much of anything. The subtest scores placed him everywhere from profoundly gifted to low average and those are what she went over carefully and what we pay attention to. Academically and in daily situations that aren't heavily social or don't require too much in the way of visual/spatial skills he presents as very solidly to profoundly gifted. But don't buy even the simplest ready-to-assemble product and ask him to put it together. Beyond putting batteries into something, he'd struggle.

 

Look at the subtest scores. They're what will paint the picture. Forget about FSIQ. It's one dot, and not a particularly important one, in that picture.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Pawz4me

[kbutton]

:grouphug: Not much to add to the conversation as you have received excellent advice, but I wanted to chime in with support.

 

I am also wondering if you are experiencing a certain amount of bias factoring in here since you mention the convoluted system for Native Canadians. You are already experiencing bias against you as a homeschooler, and you know labels are not appreciated in the school system.

 

I would go with your gut, and I would look at where he is functionally in multiple areas of life to see where you need to place your efforts. I am sorry that the evaluation didn't give you a tailored and objective place to start with that process. 

[Crimson Wife]

Thanks, I will look into that. Verbal is definitely not his strength ( other than vocabulary- he usually tests high in that) I don't know if he would be gifted, but .... I was not sure about ID.  It was just strange to have 2 different practitioners have such completely different views about what he was capable of. 

 

 

Vocabulary is often an area of relative strength for kids with ASD. It's the only language area where my DD tests in the normal range (borderline-low but at least she's >10th percentile). Some of the other frequent LC posters whose kids have ASD have similar patterns of high vocabulary coupled with lower scores in other language areas.

 

[PeterPan]

Yes my ds has 99th percentile IQ but language issues when you dig deeper. Narrative, sequencing, who questions, etc

 

If it was an intern that's the problem. What a mess. 😟

[ktgrok]

YUp, they should have the experience know when it isn't accurate. We ignore the FSIQ and go by the GAI.