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#101 dereksurfs

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:14 PM

Coming late to this party to just throw in the possibility of university tuition exchange programs with colleges outside of the U.S. (and programs that are tuition exchange for colleges within the US):

 

ISEP (300 schools in 50 countries)

NSE (200 schools in Canada, Guam, Puerto Rico, and North/Eastern U.S.)

MHEC (100 schools in 9 Midwestern U.S. states)

WUE and WICHE (200 schools in 16 Western U.S. states)

 

Lori, we are definitely considering these options as well. They seem to be much easier than a full degree from another country. Although the exchanges are typically limited to a single year.


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#102 Laura Corin

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:17 PM

Lori, we are definitely considering these options as well. They seem to be much easier than a full degree from another country. Although the exchanges are typically limited to a single year.

 

Some have more flexible options.  This is a joint degree between William and Mary, and St Andrews offering two years in each country:

 

https://www.st-andre...iam-mary-joint/


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#103 Arcadia

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:26 PM

Arcadia, it sounds like if you have interests outside your major you can still find ways to take certain courses. Although those are not required for graduation. Is that correct?

Along those lines, do EU universities have options like those in the US such as 'minoring' in a different field? What about those who want to 'double major?' For example, computer science and physics or mathematics?

It’s correct. The extra courses are just extra at a discounted rate to current students. I was just easily bored even with engineering workload and lots of extracurriculars. My husband took some extra courses too but he took them because he didn’t want to pay full price after graduating. My nephews took extras because they are easily bored like me.

Double major is possible though you do have to check the universities you are interested in.

E.g. from University of Sheffield
“Dual honours and major/minor degrees
These types of degrees allow you to study two subjects at once.

A dual honours degree has and in the courses title - Archaeology and History for example. The split between the two subjects is roughly 50/50.

A major/minor degree has with in the course title - German with Dutch for example. In this case there is more emphasis on the first named subject. The split between the two subjects is roughly 70/30.

These degrees are the same length as a single honours course but you'll choose fewer modules from the options available in each subject. The degree is just as valuable; the academic standard is just as high.

Why consider these degrees?

The breadth of scope in dual and major/minor degrees means that you'll need to develop good communication and organisational skills. These will help you whether you choose to enter the jobs market or continue your studies at the end of your course.

When you graduate you'll also have greater freedom of choice if you do decide to carry on your studies beyond degree level. You'll be able to choose between further study in either one of your original subject areas or conducting research on a topic that combines both.
...
Three subjects at once
We also offer a degree, Y001 Combined Honours - Triple, that lets you study three arts and humanities subjects.”
https://www.sheffiel....do?id=NT222017
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#104 luuknam

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:36 PM

Like, I had Dutch, English, German, French, and Latin in secondary school, I had biology, chemistry, physics, algebra, geometry, trig, calculus, statistics and probability (those are all in integrated math), macro and micro economics (one integrated class - there's also a class that's more of an accounting class, but I didn't have space for that), history, (physical and human) geography, shop (as in, woodworking, metalworking, electrical stuff, etc - there's also a crafts class that normally everybody takes but since I was in the bilingual program that was something we didn't get to take), art, art appreciation, music, some misc class that covered things like personal health, hygiene, safety, and life skills and study skills and other stuff not covered in other classes, PE, um, that probably about sums it up. Now, I obviously didn't have all of the above every year, though I did have 15 different subjects for a few years (which is common).  

 

 

ETA: also, world religions, computer skills, and philosophy. 



#105 madteaparty

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:55 PM

Joint degrees are very common. I did one, and so are/will both my boys. Major/minor degrees also exist but I think are less common. There are also new liberal arts degrees at some universities:

https://www.exeter.a...egrees/libarts/

The norm in Scotland is to study three subjects for the first two years, then continue with one or two for the final two years.

Is Calvin doing his second degree in three years still or does it take an additional one?
You've been so generous and helpful with info on this thread!

#106 luuknam

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:57 PM

Arcadia, it sounds like if you have interests outside your major you can still find ways to take certain courses.  Although those are not required for graduation. Is that correct?

 

Along those lines, do EU universities have options like those in the US such as 'minoring' in a different field? What about those who want to 'double major?' For example, computer science and physics or mathematics?

 

 

You can double major, but unless it's in a closely related field, it might be hard to pull off in reality, because you don't just take courses whenever - they're on a schedule, so, you can't just take a slightly lighter load for one or both of them and take an extra year to graduate... you'd really have to do two full loads at the same time. Which is doable for a number of people if it's something like math and physics, but not very doable if it's say biomedical science & engineering and artificial intelligence (not much overlap there). I'm not entirely sure if minors exist. 

 

And yes, you can take random courses extra if you want, or take courses as an adult just for fun, or w/e. There just isn't much elective space in your degree program, but that doesn't mean you can't take more courses. 


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#107 Laura Corin

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:00 PM

Is Calvin doing his second degree in three years still or does it take an additional one?
You've been so generous and helpful with info on this thread!


Just three years for the two subjects, because you dive into the specialised courses from day one. Hobbes' and my degree includes/d a year abroad, so that's four years in England or five in Scotland.

A joint honours degree is somewhere between 50/50 of a single honours and 60/60. Mine was 60/60, so pretty hard work but in the same timescale.

Glad to help.
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#108 dereksurfs

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:40 PM

One of my daughters is interested in Environmental Studies or Environmental Science. Is this major or focus area studied primary at a universities or hogeschools in the EU? Would this vary by country or would it be fairly standard for all?

 

Thanks,



#109 dereksurfs

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:41 PM

Some have more flexible options.  This is a joint degree between William and Mary, and St Andrews offering two years in each country:

 

https://www.st-andre...iam-mary-joint/

 

Laura,

 

This looks really good in terms of the time spent in each country! I only wish they had more majors. When you say some are more flexible, are you saying there may be other programs like this with potentially additional majors of interest?

 

I am beginning to think some form of an abroad or joint program like this may be the best option for us given all the logistics involved.

 

Thank you,



#110 luuknam

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:01 PM

One of my daughters is interested in Environmental Studies or Environmental Science. Is this major or focus area studied primary at a universities or hogeschools in the EU? Would this vary by country or would it be fairly standard for all?

 

 

The Wikipedia article lists university programs for Environmental Studies/Environmental Science, and it doesn't list any hogeschool programs, so, my guess would be university?

 

https://nl.wikipedia..._universiteiten

 

Here, this does list a few hogescholen as well:

 

https://nl.wikipedia...ukundeopleiding

 

Of course, your first step would be to narrow down those lists to programs offered 100% in English. After that, you should probably talk to an advisor at the university, and make one of the questions about why to pick university vs hogeschool. 


Edited by luuknam, 15 November 2017 - 10:05 PM.

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#111 madteaparty

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:13 PM

I wish there was a comprehensive list of the joint degree programs like the one Laura posted (Edinburgh/William and Mary). I know of a handful of graduate ones (JDs--these IMO, save for the cost, are an infinitely better deal for the European students than American ones).
I started researching undergrad joint programs and quickly wilted. I may be more motivated in a year or two ;)
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#112 dereksurfs

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 01:07 AM

I wish there was a comprehensive list of the joint degree programs like the one Laura posted (Edinburgh/William and Mary). I know of a handful of graduate ones (JDs--these IMO, save for the cost, are an infinitely better deal for the European students than American ones).
I started researching undergrad joint programs and quickly wilted. I may be more motivated in a year or two ;)

 

Yes, I have a feeling it will take a lot of research to really do it justice. In just the my initial research I have discovered at least four methods for studying abroad and I would imagine there are more. These consist of:

 

1. Applying directly to the school as a non-EU student and completing the full degree overseas.

2. Finding a Joint Degree program that spends significant time in two countries (i.e. 50/50).

3. Perusing a Dual Degree program in two countries. This differs form joint degrees and may be easier to find. I'm still researching the differences (see below). 

4. More standard Abroad programs based upon well established agreements between universities for one or two semesters in a foreign country.

 

Here's an interesting paper put out by the American Counsel on Education's Center for Internationalization and Global Engagement:

http://www.acenet.ed...ual-Degrees.pdf


Edited by dereksurfs, 16 November 2017 - 01:08 AM.


#113 Laura Corin

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 02:20 AM

Laura,

This looks really good in terms of the time spent in each country! I only wish they had more majors. When you say some are more flexible, are you saying there may be other programs like this with potentially additional majors of interest?

I am beginning to think some form of an abroad or joint program like this may be the best option for us given all the logistics involved.

Thank you,


I would, if you are interested in the UK, find a list of the Russell Group (well respected) universities, add in Oxford and Cambridge, and work your way through their websites.

There is no EU standard for how university education works. For that matter, England and Scotland differ too. Good luck!
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#114 Laura Corin

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 02:23 AM

Environmental science is a university subject in the UK. Search for the Guardian best university list and then search by subject.

Edited by Laura Corin, 16 November 2017 - 02:24 AM.

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#115 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:47 AM

4. More standard Abroad programs based upon well established agreements between universities for one or two semesters in a foreign country.
]

For international business, USC's cohort programs offer well-developed abroad programs where the abroad institutions' courses are integrated directly into the degree sequence. My Dd is in the CIFA cohort and will spend her entire jr yr abroad at the University of Dauphine taking their finance courses in French. The partner students from Dauphine return with the US cohort students for a yr at USC.

They have 5 different regional cohort programs. (The programs are competitive and require an extensive application. Dd had to research an economic issue impacting French speaking countries and write an essay on the topic as part of the application. I think only 9 or 10 students were accepted into her cohort.)

https://sc.edu/study...grams/index.php

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 16 November 2017 - 10:49 AM.

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#116 Arcadia

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 10:49 PM

Derek,

Interesting article from BBC about UK universities

The degrees that make you rich... and the ones that don't
By Dr Jack Britton
Institute for Fiscal Studies
17 November 2017
http://www.bbc.com/n...cation-41693230
“Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are big differences in the earnings of graduates from different universities.

Five years after graduation, average annual earnings for students who were taught at the London School of Economics, Imperial College London and University of Oxford are more than £40,000.

Graduates of the 24 Russell Group universities earn an average of £33,500 after five years - about 40% more than those who studied at other universities.

At the other end of the scale, there are several institutions - many of them dance and drama colleges - where average earnings after five years are closer to £15,000.

Importantly, many of the differences here are not down to the universities themselves.

They have different average earnings partly because students aren't all the same - they have different abilities and interests.”
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#117 MarkT

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:33 AM

I would, if you are interested in the UK, find a list of the Russell Group (well respected) universities, add in Oxford and Cambridge, and work your way through their websites.

There is no EU standard for how university education works. For that matter, England and Scotland differ too. Good luck!

"Within the UK, in Scotland, where there are no tuition fees, 56% of students thought university was good or very good value for money, but this too was lower than last year."

 

Are Scotland universities considerably cheaper?



#118 Laura Corin

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 04:11 AM

"Within the UK, in Scotland, where there are no tuition fees, 56% of students thought university was good or very good value for money, but this too was lower than last year."

Are Scotland universities considerably cheaper?


Only for Scottish residents.
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#119 CAJinBE

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:30 PM

Many of the research universities in the Netherlands have small, honors colleges called University Colleges where students earn a bachelors degree in Liberal Arts and Sciences. They are taught completely in English and have small class sizes. Many use a teaching method called Problem Based Learning, which are small tutorial groups. They are selective but the minimum requirements for Americans are a high school diploma plus 4 AP exams with a score of 3 or better. Some have higher requirements like scores of 4 or higher and require AP Calculus. The enrollment is about half Dutch students and half international. These are three year programs with the possibility of going on for a one or two year masters degree. They follow a residential model where students live together in student housing for at least the first year. There is a lot of contact hours with professors. Tuition for EU residents is about 2000 euros per year, but for non-EU it runs between 7000 and 9000 depending on the school. They look like really nice programs for anyone interested in an international experience in English.


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#120 dereksurfs

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:43 PM

Many of the research universities in the Netherlands have small, honors colleges called University Colleges where students earn a bachelors degree in Liberal Arts and Sciences. They are taught completely in English and have small class sizes. Many use a teaching method called Problem Based Learning, which are small tutorial groups. They are selective but the minimum requirements for Americans are a high school diploma plus 4 AP exams with a score of 3 or better. Some have higher requirements like scores of 4 or higher and require AP Calculus. The enrollment is about half Dutch students and half international. These are three year programs with the possibility of going on for a one or two year masters degree. They follow a residential model where students live together in student housing for at least the first year. There is a lot of contact hours with professors. Tuition for EU residents is about 2000 euros per year, but for non-EU it runs between 7000 and 9000 depending on the school. They look like really nice programs for anyone interested in an international experience in English.

 

Thanks, CAJinBE. I'll have to take a look at these since they sound like a great opportunity for international students.

 

Since we're on the topic, I notice the minimum requirement for most programs are multiple AP courses and in some cases test scores. However, no one has mentioned homeschooling and how EU universities view that, especially for international students. Does anyone have experience of knowledge about homeschool students attending college in the EU?



#121 Lilaclady

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:55 PM

I think homeschool students are able to attend colleges in the UK. I have known some attend Cambridge and Oxford. They had high AP and other exams scores, did interviews and were accepted.
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#122 Laura Corin

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:07 PM

I think homeschool students are able to attend colleges in the UK. I have known some attend Cambridge and Oxford. They had high AP and other exams scores, did interviews and were accepted.

 

This would be my expectation for the UK too.  As it's an exam-based system with no transcript, the method for achieving the exam passes is immaterial.  Home education is legal in the UK and HE pupils mostly enter university using exam passes, like other pupils.


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#123 luuknam

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:41 PM

Since we're on the topic, I notice the minimum requirement for most programs are multiple AP courses and in some cases test scores. However, no one has mentioned homeschooling and how EU universities view that, especially for international students. Does anyone have experience of knowledge about homeschool students attending college in the EU?

 

 

Homeschooling is not legal in NL, so they won't have much experience with homeschooled students, but since it's pretty well-known that American high school diplomas don't mean much, I doubt it would matter much, so long as you've got the bunch of AP scores etc. 

 

One of the things to keep in mind is that sometimes you might need to use a bit of effort to persuade people that certain things can or should be done. You know, if they say something isn't possible, ask to talk to their supervisor or w/e, or ask what would need to happen in order to make it possible, etc etc (best if this stuff comes from the student, not the parent). Oftentimes, things are possible if you're a bit persistent. NL universities aren't as obsessed about their rankings as US ones are, because people in NL just don't perceive them as being significantly different, and Dutch high school students don't look up the rankings, so, it shouldn't be as hard to get them to be willing to take a risk, because it doesn't hurt them as much if your kid were to flunk out or w/e (and, they don't have as much pressure to do grade inflation etc). That said, I'm talking as having been a Dutch high school student, not a foreign applicant. 


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#124 mumto2

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:47 PM

My kids have typical US homeschooled qualifications but are British and residing in the UK which might make a difference. Neither had any problem with acceptance via UCAS for the programs they applied for. Fwiw all Russell Group. No interview requested.

Their scores were above the levels being asked for by international students but consisted of ACT, SAT Subjects,and a couple of AP's each. We mixed AP and SAT without issue. They also had what would be considered to be an extensive DE transcript with associates completed at a US University which I do think someone asked to see.
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#125 luuknam

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:48 PM

Actually, thinking about this some more, they might be more concerned about a foreign homeschooled student's ability to adjust to living away from home, so you might want to be able to point to some stuff that shows that she's not going to go running home out of homesickness after a few weeks. (again, just speculating... but anyway)


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#126 loesje22000

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:57 PM

Thanks, CAJinBE. I'll have to take a look at these since they sound like a great opportunity for international students.

Since we're on the topic, I notice the minimum requirement for most programs are multiple AP courses and in some cases test scores. However, no one has mentioned homeschooling and how EU universities view that, especially for international students. Does anyone have experience of knowledge about homeschool students attending college in the EU?


It doesn’t matter how one has been schooled, diploma’s that is what count. In USA case AP’s and test scores. Homeschoolers also pass exit exams and get a diploma.
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#127 madteaparty

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:41 PM

My kids have typical US homeschooled qualifications but are British and residing in the UK which might make a difference. Neither had any problem with acceptance via UCAS for the programs they applied for. Fwiw all Russell Group. No interview requested.

Their scores were above the levels being asked for by international students but consisted of ACT, SAT Subjects,and a couple of AP's each. We mixed AP and SAT without issue. They also had what would be considered to be an extensive DE transcript with associates completed at a US University which I do think someone asked to see.

That's interesting you went the US route for purposes of meeting admission requirements.
I'm thrilled to see UK universities seem to be familiar with DE the way we homeschoolers use it. I worried DS transcript would look, well, foreign ;) to them. (American kid interested in UK schools).
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#128 dereksurfs

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 04:40 PM

My kids have typical US homeschooled qualifications but are British and residing in the UK which might make a difference. Neither had any problem with acceptance via UCAS for the programs they applied for. Fwiw all Russell Group. No interview requested.

Their scores were above the levels being asked for by international students but consisted of ACT, SAT Subjects,and a couple of AP's each. We mixed AP and SAT without issue. They also had what would be considered to be an extensive DE transcript with associates completed at a US University which I do think someone asked to see.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like they had a mixture of AP, SAT and DE. Out of curiosity, did the DE count for much? I think it had been mentioned that CC DE is not considered university level. So thy are considered apart of high school education. However, if one were to take DE at a US University could some of those courses count toward one's EU degree? As I think about that question, I also remember one of the differences in EU universities in that they don't really have GEs like we do in the US. As a result, most jump right into their major area of study. 


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#129 mumto2

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:54 PM

Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like they had a mixture of AP, SAT and DE. Out of curiosity, did the DE count for much? I think it had been mentioned that CC DE is not considered university level. So thy are considered apart of high school education. However, if one were to take DE at a US University could some of those courses count toward one's EU degree? As I think about that question, I also remember one of the differences in EU universities in that they don't really have GEs like we do in the US. As a result, most jump right into their major area of study.


In general I would not expect credit for DE. I would just consider it an extra that makes them more attractive and able to handle University level work. Maybe if the class is an obvious duplicate down to the textbook.

#130 madteaparty

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:03 PM

In general I would not expect credit for DE. I would just consider it an extra that makes them more attractive and able to handle University level work. Maybe if the class is an obvious duplicate down to the textbook.

I don't expect credit here and definitely wouldn't there; I'm more concerned about the old fear of "oh, x many credits, you're a transfer student", or even worse "but where are your HIGH SCHOOL classes though?" 😂 I'm paranoid, I know.

#131 Arcadia

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:05 PM

As I think about that question, I also remember one of the differences in EU universities in that they don't really have GEs like we do in the US. As a result, most jump right into their major area of study.


TUDelft (Netherlands) aerospace engineering students (past and present) created a website that I found useful as a for your info kind of way. For example Linear Algebra class is listed as first year fourth quarter, as is Python class.
http://www.aerostudents.com
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#132 mumto2

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:16 PM

That's interesting you went the US route for purposes of meeting admission requirements.
I'm thrilled to see UK universities seem to be familiar with DE the way we homeschoolers use it. I worried DS transcript would look, well, foreign ;) to them. (American kid interested in UK schools).


Many Uni's actually employ Americans to work with potential American students so I wouldn't worry too much about not being understood. ;). We found the UCAS application was amazingly straightforward with confirmation being requested by the individual programs if they require it. They don't want the ACT scores etc upfront like in the US you just plug them in to the main application.

Some schools are also able to accept things like Pell Grants.

Fyi, Several of the Dc's friends are foreign language majors. I believe Sheffield has a French Literature major so you might want to look at that degree. Most double with another language. I know their German Literature one is popular because most of the friends have a double with that and another language.
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#133 MarkT

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:16 AM

TUDelft (Netherlands) aerospace engineering students (past and present) created a website that I found useful as a for your info kind of way. For example Linear Algebra class is listed as first year fourth quarter, as is Python class.
http://www.aerostudents.com

Interesting they appear to attend for 3 years of four quarters each year

versus UC which is 4 years for three quarters each year

 

How long are their quarters?



#134 Laura Corin

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:13 AM

My kids have typical US homeschooled qualifications but are British and residing in the UK which might make a difference. Neither had any problem with acceptance via UCAS for the programs they applied for. Fwiw all Russell Group. No interview requested.

Their scores were above the levels being asked for by international students but consisted of ACT, SAT Subjects,and a couple of AP's each. We mixed AP and SAT without issue. They also had what would be considered to be an extensive DE transcript with associates completed at a US University which I do think someone asked to see.


For UK students, interviews only usually happen for Oxford and Cambridge, and maybe things like art and medicine. I don't know if there are different rules for overseas applicants.
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#135 Arcadia

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:28 AM

Interesting they appear to attend for 3 years of four quarters each year
versus UC which is 4 years for three quarters each year

How long are their quarters?


From their aerospace engineering exchange student page
“As the quarters are only about 7 weeks long, this means that the courses are taught in an intensive way. Going above 15 credits per quarter is therefore not advised.
...
Courses
All of the programmes at the Faculty of Aerospace Engineering are taught in English.”
http://studenten.tud...hange-students/

The aerospace engineering page https://www.tudelft....ing/curriculum/
“A normal day of lectures starts at 08.45 and finishes at 17.30. Students spend an average of 30 hours a week at the faculty, excluding independent study time. Generally speaking, lectures are not compulsory, but most laboratory courses and projects are subject to attendance requirements.”
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#136 CAJinBE

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 11:49 AM

Thanks, CAJinBE. I'll have to take a look at these since they sound like a great opportunity for international students.

 

Since we're on the topic, I notice the minimum requirement for most programs are multiple AP courses and in some cases test scores. However, no one has mentioned homeschooling and how EU universities view that, especially for international students. Does anyone have experience of knowledge about homeschool students attending college in the EU?

 

This seems to vary, but everyone I know that has graduated a homeschooler and wanted to go on to a European school has done so. One had to get a homeschool transcript notarized. Another had to apply to a US university to show that it was possible (equivalent, in a way) , others have had cover school accredited transcripts. We are applying this year with a online school diploma, SAT scores, and AP scores. So I will know more by the end of the year. Belgium has an equivalency department that looks at transcripts to make a decision if they are acceptable or not. Some schools have entrance exams for math, French or Dutch. There seems to be as many combinations as there are schools and students. 


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#137 CAJinBE

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 11:54 AM

Actually, thinking about this some more, they might be more concerned about a foreign homeschooled student's ability to adjust to living away from home, so you might want to be able to point to some stuff that shows that she's not going to go running home out of homesickness after a few weeks. (again, just speculating... but anyway)

 

This is a good point. In addition to transcripts, they want to see a CV and motivation letter stating why you think an international experience is right for you. Previous international experience is helpful but not required as long as you are enthusiastic about living abroad and being part of the community. At least for the selective programs that have limited enrollments.


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