Screen time in routines

[PeterPan]

I need some help sorting this out.  Last summer ds got in the routine of watching Peg & Cat while eating breakfast before his daily swim lessons.  You know how that is though, lol.  It held into the fall, and now it's this immutable thing, sigh.  With when he wakes up, he ends up watching Curious George and sometimes Daniel Tiger each day.  Daniel Tiger drives me crazy, but the more it's on the more I realize it's going into social discussions that he could actually use.

 

So, are shows like that an *effective* way of introducing social ideas and social modeling to our kids?  My goal is to get the Model Me Kids dvds pretty soon, but this is different.  He also likes to watch documentaries, history shows, that kind of thing.  He's not really one to watch tv for entertainment, save for MacGuyver and things that are overtly educational.  He literally just gets up and wanders away if he's not engaged.  

 

So I'm trying to sort through, because I don't want TOO much tv, like some much it's bad for him, but I don't want to cut out things that are actually GOOD for him either, kwim?  So Daniel Tiger and Curious George.  I think he just likes CG because he's so young inside.  DT is trying to work on social, but it's annoying to me.  It really is quite explicit though and it uses appropriate language.  If he watches or hears things multiple times he'll memorize them and repeat them verbatim, which means the language of DT would actually go into his bank and give him more tools.  

 

So it ties into the SPD/OT thread, because I'm trying to decide if I should use sensory activities to transition him from a show like that in the morning to our school work OR if I should just axe it entirely.  Option three would be to go straight to school work in the mornings and save DT/CG for afternoons using prime streaming.  He has a lot of energy in the morning, and when he comes out he can be REALLY ON, like me.  So it seems a waste in that sense to have that really on energy, his best energy of the day, go into DT/CG, kwim?  But it also really sucks to wake up in the morning and go Yeah, I feel great, let's go do Barton!  A 6 yo with his mix just does not wake up and say that, lol.  So he needs to wake up to something happy that he WANTS to do and is excited to do.  And if we can transition that back to something more typical (a morning circle time with read alouds and geography and memory work and stuff), that might be more healthy and developmentally appropriate, yes?  

 

What kind of morning routine REALLY WORKS with your 2E, inflexible, rigid 6-8-ish year olds?

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't know if my response will help much, since my kids are older, but I have found that if we start with TV in the morning it can be good and bad.  Bad, usually, if it is a program, like a TV show.  They have energy but it isn't being channeled.  That makes it harder to sit still later and they don't seem as focused.  They also have less motivation to finish school stuff.  

 

When I stopped allowing any TV except CNN Student News during breakfast, it helped.  But we don't start off with Barton.  DD wakes up really early so she and I used to take a walk, or watch birds or play with the animals in the backyard.  She would come back in ready to focus.  DS and I would cuddle together, maybe watch a Crash Course History, then do a bit of math drill while he bounced on his mini-trampoline.  

 

 

[PeterPan]

Ooo, I forgot about morning walks!  In the summer that works really well!  Last summer we were at the pool every morning by 9.  This summer we'll be able to do a whole morning routine of school work and things before we have classes.  

[wendyroo]

My boys wake up, eat breakfast and then have about an hour of play time before we sit down for learning time.  There are no screens allowed during that hour of play time and I encourage them to go outside, especially during the summer when the weather is perfect in the early morning.

 

They watch 30-45 minutes of semi-educational TV while they eat lunch, and they each get a turn on the computer or tablet in the late afternoon while I make dinner.

 

Wendy

[Terabith]

I have no real expertise, but honestly, I'd be tempted to say "Daniel Tiger" has as much benefit to him as Barton (which is also very important), since it is soooo explicit on social and emotional teaching, which at six, is probably more important than literacy, given what we know about the windows and sensitive periods for social skills. 

[PeterPan]

Wow, thanks for saying that, Terabith!  I was trying to figure out if it was my imagination or not!  He's so DRAWN to it, and the show is SO explicit, so slow, so young, so whatever, I thought it was for 3 yos.  I kept telling him to turn it off, but he's drawn to it.  The more I listen, the more I hear these things that are social skills, emotional regulation, putting words to things.  And he DOES memorize them.  I think it's actually worthwhile, in a bizarre sort of way.  

 

I'll look and see if I can stream it at a different time.  I think it's that it's in the morning, first thing.  I either need to structure it in or stream it at another time or something.

 

So what say you then on Curious George?  Is that also worthwhile like Daniel Tiger, or is it more in the straight entertainment realm?  When dd was little (ok, through about 4th or 5th or later, lol) she had this thing for Tom & Jerry.  Ds likes Tom & Jerry, but he REALLY likes CG.  But there are just limits too, sigh.  

 

Anyways, I'll see whether we can stream it at a different time.  Or he could organize himself and get up and watch DT and then do a morning walk and use the sensory things and whatnot to transition.  It has been kinda random so far and we could codify that.  That would work.  I just don't like endless tv with no way to get off it.  One show and then a sensory thing like a walk and then work could work.

[PeterPan]

Ha!  I checked a little further, and turns out all the episodes they're showing right now on PBS are from previous seasons!!!  And I can stream those with amazon prime ANY TIME.  So there, problem solved haha.  We don't have to live by the PBS schedule if we don't want to, hehe.

[Terabith]

Curious George is more entertainment.  It's certainly not BAD; you can even stretch and call it science.  I wouldn't forbid it or anything, but I think it's more like entertainment than education.

[Lecka]

I have two takes.  

 

One, can this be used for pairing?  Are you allowed to sit with him and comment a bit?  Are you allowed to laugh at a funny part?  Are you allowed to act goofy and pretend you don't know an answer when they go "where is George hiding?" (or whatever -- all the pre-school shows do something like this)?  Could you potentially pause and ask how someone is feeling and make a comment "yes, she looks sad, because blah blah."  Could you pause and say "what do you think will happen next?"  If anything like this is regarded as "you are really just bugging me" then I think it may not be the best activity for pairing.  But in pairing you start in a low-demand way, you don't throw in high demands at first (asking a question is a high demand, tolerating you laughing or commenting is a lower demand, tolerating you sitting and watching it might be a very low demand ----- depending on what the situation is).  

 

Two, in a more long-term way, right now it looks like you have 3 20-minute videos as part of your morning.  If you could get to a point to where it worked for your schedule to spread the videos out and let them be on a visual schedule you might use.... I don't think it is excessive, and it might work for you.

 

Like -- in the OT video, when they have a visual schedule with 5 spaces -- the mom puts down 2 non-negociables (or "mom's choice") and then the child puts down 3 "kids choice" paper squares.  Well, in visual schedules in general, you are not limited to only OT activities.  You can have a little picture of a tv, or a Curious George.  Depending on how it is being done (and this was something the therapist decided for us) you can let the tv be an option any time there is a "kids choice" but limit the time -- go to 5-minute you-tube videos, or just pause.  Or ---- you can "use up" icons as they are used - -they can go into a bag instead of back onto the paper.  For this you might have 3 tv icons, and when the 3 tv icons are used up, the child has to pick something else.  This is like -- for when a child has a lot of things they like, so you are not using up the only thing they are interested in, and also, when they would understand (or be able to start "learning through the process") that "if I see 3 tv icons, I need to think, hmmm, maybe I don't want to use them all up first thing, maybe I want to save one for later."  But for this, you don't go "okay, it is 3, that is all, got it?"  You might start with a lot of tv icons, and have them get squeezed out by other preferred activities, until eventually, "oh, there is room for 3 tv icons" but it is not such a big deal.  Or whatever.  

 

Now -- I don't do a lot of this.  I do more first/then statements.  

 

But the visual schedules, choice boards, first/then cards ------- these are all pretty generically used autism strategies.  They are supposed to be good for problem behaviors and for transitions.  

 

There is a lot of nuance in how they are set up and exactly how they are used.  Like -- when teaching how they are used, maybe they are just used with 3 preferred activities in a row -- so that the kids like the schedule strip when they see it, and start to be used to following a schedule.  Or maybe they jump into it in a different way. http://www.amazon.com/Activity-Schedules-Children-Autism-Edition/dp/160613003X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8 I have read this book from the library, it manages to be a 100-page book mostly about visual schedules.  For us personally, we primarily use this kind of concept as a way to decrease problem behavior and improve transitions (a lot of problem behavior was occurring at transitions).  

 

But to a certain point -- it is not like you have to have the visual schedule.  You can have the same way of structuring things or discussing things, and then not use the picture icons.  I do not use them, but I would if I was seeing certain things.  I think they are a need at school, and at school can let him be more independent (vs. responding to those dreaded verbal prompts... visual schedules are considered easy to fade as appropriate).   

 

They are the kind of thing that I need to be aware of, and I might need to be able to tell another person what his experience is with using them, and how many icons at a time he has used, and how independently he has used them (if this is the purpose), or things like that.  They are just one of those things.  If I ever hear "there is an issue with a transition, what has worked in the past?" then I am going to say "a visual schedule has worked in the past and here is some detail about how he was using it most recently."  (In practice -- everyone tries to be consistent with what is used at pre-school or school, in his case, but there are still details involved.)  Other strategies are "giving a warning" and "starting with a warm-up."  And more strategies. 

[PeterPan]

Thanks, our library has that book!!  And you know, I'm looking at the sample and realizing I SAW that at the charter school and didn't realize what I was seeing.  That's what has stumped me, how to translate ideas into things that are flexible, visible, and maintainable.  So if this is The Book to explain that, by all means that's what I needed.  I got the e-version and can work on reading it.  Just wild though, because you're right, that's what I saw.  They had the overall schedule on the wall, then they had pages of subroutines in a notebook with page protectors.  That way it could be FLEXIBLE.  It's totally clicking how that would work.

 

And that's such a good point about building in some of these routines with things he wants, hmm.  

 

I'll have to think through the pairing question and observe a bit more to sort out where we're at with that.  I think the DT deserves discussion.  The CG I think is potato chip.  So then it's whether I could get it, whether it's disruptive, whether it adds benefit, etc.  Different purposes for the shows.  

 

[PeterPan]

Ok, while we're gabbing, this is totally a different direction for a minute, but how did they use the ABA to get him to color?  Not like I'm a coloring nazi or something.  I'm just saying there are things that might be good for him, things that are maybe held back by his impulsivity, etc. etc. rather than being held back by an absolute not being appropriate or not enjoying kind of thing.  You (Lecka) have several times made the comment that you think kids ought to be given the structure to have the chance to see if they might enjoy things.  We've done sessions where I do it with him, and I think it will probably have to include that, though even that isn't age-appropriate and is a sort of support or prompt or concession (depending how perjorative you want to be in viewpoint).  

 

So I found in the HWT tm for K5 instructions on how to teach coloring.  Like it says break coloring as a skill down into 4 types of strokes and actually teach them explicitly.  Slow down the process, examining the image and asking which stroke you would use here, etc.  So say we did that.  Then we use our schedule and if/then or strips to create this routine? And the goal is independent?  Or is together with mom good enough?  Or is that a copout and not really working to get the level of independence and maturity he COULD have?  (that limited vision thing for where he COULD be)  I think I have intellectually stimulating coloring options (hidden pictures, etc.), so to me it shouldn't be an intellectual question but more a behavioral and developmental one. 

 

It also strikes me that centers in a school are roughly equivalent to the steps in a visual schedule, yes?  But centers are this physical, kinesthetic way of creating a schedule.  You make a visual schedule more tactile with velcro, but there's something to that idea of a kinesthetic schedule, letting him FEEL the shifts.  I thought about that, about whether I ought to set up my house that way.  But I do overcomplicate things sometimes, lol.  

[PeterPan]

And I KNOW I'm going to get somebody saying I'm MEAN, MEAN, MEAN for saying I want ways to get out of coloring with my 6 year old.  Get real.  I do EVERYTHING with this child.  Well everything is a mathematical statement.  I'm just saying I do a lot with him.  This child won't even dress himself at the Y after swim lessons, even though in theory, physically he can.  I have a problem, Houston, and I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it.  I don't understand the psychology of that, when you physically CAN and don't.  

 

Before it was stuff where he didn't seem to be able to problem solve out the steps, like for getting his breakfast or a drink.  I'm working with it on the dressing.  He dresses himself at home.  It's just at the Y I think we got in a routine where I was doing it for him (to make it faster), and now he wants me to KEEP doing it.  And I'm thinking you know, probably those girls aren't gonna like having a 7 yo in the girls' locker room and maybe he needs to learn to dress himself!  But it takes 3 times as long and he's melting down and screaming and yelling for me and...

 

So I *do* need to ask the question whether independence is a necessary step on xyz activity, because he literally gets used to it one way and isn't GOING to do it another way.  Maybe that's what happened?  I mean, like he'll color with someone when at Bob Evans with the guys for breakfast, but he's not going to color independently at home.  Here, not there.  With someone, not alone.  Things don't connect and carry over.

 

And I'm asking, because, to a homeschooler, there's sort of this perverseness about school, where they're constantly pushing independence.  It's like our whole system wants kids to be independent, independent, and won't give them that time to pair, to be bonded, to grow.  So I don't want to flip that direction either, kwim?  But if he's not going to generalize and be able to do the skill on his own either, that's a problem.

 

So to put it a more concrete way, how much, as homeschoolers, do we want to use these visual schedules and things to encourage independence, and how much is that not being embracing and warm and paired/connected, kwim?  

[PeterPan]

Ok, you know me, hehe,  I'm sitting here thinking.  I have an overall routine for the week on the wall in a big huge pocket chart, with cards for each major activity.  So those cards translate into the subroutines in the flip pages in the notebook.  That makes sense to me.  So then, where do I put the sensory as part of those subroutines?  On the BrainWorks folder the subroutine is on the front and there's a tachometer and the child is selecting his sensory options depending on where he's at.  So then, on the subroutine pages in the notebook, I would put the cards for the nonnegotiables and leave BLANK spots for him to fill in the sensory when he gets there?  So he would then whip open his folder of sensory pics, spin the tachometer, fill in the slots, and bam?  Or would I fill them in at the beginning of the day??  That can't work.  And yet, anything that is left to chance gets crazy.  We're entropy in action, sigh.  

 

He really hates predone schedules that he doesn't own, btw.  When I tried to put checklists on the ipad (for myself to use with him!) it worked great until the little ornery non-reader somehow figured out how to DELETE them.  He really is serious about that.  So that's a trick to have ownership and acceptance of it, sigh.  Maybe that choice process during the day would help...

 

So I guess I'm asking how your school blends the subroutine schedules and the BrainWorks folder?  Or they do the first/then at school also?  Or have a subroutine for the thing (box time, whatever) with all the steps, then a new page for the sensory you do for transition?  See I was assuming I'd put sensory and the school tasks on the same page, but they could be broken into separate pages.  But if you're only doing 1-2 brief things, that doesn't make sense and would make the notebook cluttery.

[PeterPan]

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/index.php?pageId=3613&mode=mod_resources&action=display_category&resource_cat=18&r=1363118519

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=134817413893&story_fbid=10203053001224168

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/index.php?pageId=394

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/styles/iidc/defiles/IRCA/Structured%20Teaching%20Strategies%20Article%202.pdf

 

Those are all articles on visual schedules.

 

https://theinclusivechurch.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/visual-schedules-part-2-pill-box-reward-tool/

This shows using a pill box for a visual schedule for short term in a church, putting m&ms inside.  Maybe not ideal for long-term, but fun!  Also has articles on SN ministries in a church and how to be more inclusive.

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Ok Lecka, I'm picking your brain some more, hehe.  One of those IU articles says gives a pyramid of structure:

 

Visual Structure of Materials

 

Routines and Visual Strategies

 

Work Systems

 

Schedules

 

Physical Structure

 

 

So even though that looks flipped, physical structure is the base, the biggest section of the pyramid, and visual structure of materials is at the top.  So it does indeed look like they differentiate a schedule from routines and visual strategies.  Apparently I'm understanding that correctly (or sort of correctly, haha).  So what is a Work System?  Want to expand on any of that?  

 

I'll try to find more articles from IU as well, since they seem to be speaking my language.

 

Here's the article that pyramid came from http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/styles/iidc/defiles/IRCA/Structured%20Teaching%20Strategies%20Article%202.pdf

 

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/index.php?pageId=3613

Here they break down visual supports into categories and include work systems!

 

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/index.php?pageId=358

And here's their page of research and articles on sensory, including whether they consider sensory diets research based, hmmm

 

http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/index.php?pageId=3613&mode=mod_resources&action=display_category&resource_cat=14

This link has a bunch of the 5 point scale pdfs for various emotions.

[Jennifer-72]

And I KNOW I'm going to get somebody saying I'm MEAN, MEAN, MEAN for saying I want ways to get out of coloring with my 6 year old. Get real. I do EVERYTHING with this child. Well everything is a mathematical statement. I'm just saying I do a lot with him. This child won't even dress himself at the Y after swim lessons, even though in theory, physically he can. I have a problem, Houston, and I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it. I don't understand the psychology of that, when you physically CAN and don't.

 

Before it was stuff where he didn't seem to be able to problem solve out the steps, like for getting his breakfast or a drink. I'm working with it on the dressing. He dresses himself at home. It's just at the Y I think we got in a routine where I was doing it for him (to make it faster), and now he wants me to KEEP doing it. And I'm thinking you know, probably those girls aren't gonna like having a 7 yo in the girls' locker room and maybe he needs to learn to dress himself! But it takes 3 times as long and he's melting down and screaming and yelling for me and...

 

So I *do* need to ask the question whether independence is a necessary step on xyz activity, because he literally gets used to it one way and isn't GOING to do it another way. Maybe that's what happened? I mean, like he'll color with someone when at Bob Evans with the guys for breakfast, but he's not going to color independently at home. Here, not there. With someone, not alone. Things don't connect and carry over.

 

And I'm asking, because, to a homeschooler, there's sort of this perverseness about school, where they're constantly pushing independence. It's like our whole system wants kids to be independent, independent, and won't give them that time to pair, to be bonded, to grow. So I don't want to flip that direction either, kwim? But if he's not going to generalize and be able to do the skill on his own either, that's a problem.

 

So to put it a more concrete way, how much, as homeschoolers, do we want to use these visual schedules and things to encourage independence, and how much is that not being embracing and warm and paired/connected, kwim?

 

A few thoughts pop to mind about what I see as common issues that I always have to ask myself whenever I run into issues with ds:

• Generalization - the arch nemesis of many parents to children with autism, lol. Just because he can do something in one environment doesn't mean that skill will carry over to other environments. Once a skill is taught you have to look at how you can get that skill to carry over. For some kids that means looking at teaching that skill as if they were starting from scratch again!
• Flexible thinking - He sounds to me like he very quickly turns things into expected routines. Ds was very much that way and still is to a much lesser extent now. These expected routines are very comforting to him and help him to navigate things around him, especially things he doesn't fully understand or have much control over. This is where visual schedules are definitely going to help you out. He will need the visual schedules and tonnes of pre warnings about what is going to happen and most likely a meltdown here and there to get him to alter some of that.
• Environment - Ds is extremely sensitive to his environment. So exactly like your pool changing example ds would not change in the change room by himself for swimming. He was way to anxious to go into the change room himself. It took me probably close to 4 months of small goals to get there!

It has always helped me to think about teaching ds like this: When a toddler starts out learning puzzles you don't sit them down with a 500 pieces puzzle and say go for it. It starts with a peg puzzle and even then you may only leave them with having to figure out where one or two of the pegs go and then work up to the whole puzzle, and so on.... Some kids naturally go from those 4-6 pieces puzzles straight into much larger puzzles but some kids need to work through every next step with your assistance along the way. Whenever I run into trouble with ds it usually because I have skipped some steps on the learning puzzles progression and have asked him to do something without all of the background knowledge that he needs. I have certainly provided some background for him, but I haven't broken the skill down enough. Which of course in true essence is what ABA is doing.

 

We never did an ABA program with ds. That doesn't mean we didn't look at things from the lens of ABA and look at how to break things down for ds. We used a more Floortime approach. That was mainly because when I look at ds and his anxiety and his level of perfectionism when he was younger ABA would not have been a good fit for him. In fact all of the therapists we saw did not think that ABA was the way to go with him. It was also not something I felt I could do day in and day out that it would have needed. So I went for what I could do which was Floortime and Hanen.

 

I have to run but will try to come back and expand my thoughts later this evening. Hopefully, the above makes some sense.

[Lecka]

The thing is my son had a home program plus special needs pre-school for 2 years, and now he is in full-day elementary school and is doing activities with ABA tutor support most days after school.  

 

So this is not stuff I have figured out on my own.  I am more in the role of:  understanding my son's program, and what his goals are, and why, and the rationale behind how we are trying to reach those goals.  I am in the role of understanding and fulfilling my role as:  parent, and I am responsible for my son's home routines, a lot of his leisure, his social interaction with his brother and sister, outings, food, helping, playing with the dog, and things like that.  That is my direct role.  I am also involved in everything.

 

But I do not know "how" my son does his work box at school.  I know that he is doing well. I know he now gets his workbox off a shelf (finding the one with his name on it!), does his work, and puts it back on the shelf.  I know he is doing things that are easy enough for him to independently, and for him the purpose is building independence more than to teach him new things -- so it is more for review (which is also important).  But I am like -- being told this by his resource teacher, at the IEP meeting, or sometime I am talking to her.  He is only doing workboxes a minimal amount, so that he can make progress in independence, because for this year the focus of his year has been socializing and school routines (and our old friend language skills).  They just do the workboxes for him a little so he can make progress in independent work habits, too.   

 

But I get this from my son's ABA supervisor and his resource teacher at school (or the head teacher at special needs pre-school).  Both of these people have their own supervisors (a BCBA-D, and the district autism specialist).  But there is no need for them to consult about my son!  They have got it under control.  This is a big improvement compared to when sometimes these people were consulted wrt my son (when he was younger).  

 

But these people have got a lot of education and experience in this.  And I am sure other autism specialists, too.  

 

But I wonder if this is the kind of thing where you pay an ABA consultant $2,000 and she sets up a schedule/structure and recommends what form that takes and what reinforcement schedule you use, and then you call or e-mail her about questions, and then go about doing everything else you want to do within that schedule/structure.  

 

I don't know if that is really how it works?  But I have an impression like it is something people here can pay $2,000 for?  And depending on what situation they have, consider it money they are glad they have spent.  But I don't *really* know b/c I have just got this impression, and I don't know exactly how it works.  It is not how we do it b/c of my son's level and our insurance. 

 

I also have read a lot of things where people did have their kids in a school program that was working in some ways, and carried over what had worked from the school program into their home, so that they were not trying to invent everything from scratch.  That would be my situation if I decided to homeschool.  

 

But other than that -- I think just try to read, and try to go slow with anything you try.  Expect it to be a learning process to do any of this.  They make it look easy sometimes, in videos, but it is not just some one-day process, to get kids to where they are doing these things.  It is a big learning process and it takes time.    

 

As for crayons -- if you want him to independently choose to color with NO environmental or group control (or it is called something else?) ---- you are asking for it to be his top choice when he can pick anything at all.  That is a high thing to ask.  Environmental control is ----- at Bob Evans he is sitting, there are crayons there, there is nothing else to do.  It is a set-up to color for him.  Maybe other factors, too.  Group control is -- he sees other people doing it, and so he wants to do it, too.  That is also present at Bob Evans.  

 

So you can either try to make coloring very, very motivating for him, intrincially motivating so he wants to do it on his own.  You can try this by:  pairing it with favorite activities, making it really cool, increasing his skill so that he feels like he is good at it, or whatever.  Is this realistic?  Maybe not -- not every kid is so into coloring.  

 

Or, you can build it into your routine that "now we color" in some kind of way.  You can use strategies to make it more likely to be something he goes along with.  Maybe that is what is realistic.  But just think of how many kids color "because it is time to color," not because it is one of their top favorite things to do such that they go and get out the craft supplies and color when they could be picking anything else available to them.  Even though "coloring is supposed to be something kids do on their own just because they want to" sometimes that is not the reality of a child's current experience and reality.  (I mean -- maybe your little picture of crayons is a "moms choice" on your schedule -- or the equivalent kind of idea in whatever way you set things up.)  

 

But if coloring is not currently intrinsically motivating and intrinsically a free-choice activity for your son, that is the current reality, but doesn't meant you don't work towards it.  You can have a lot of strategies for where you are, and for where you want to go.  

[kbutton]

A couple of random thoughts...not all sensory activities are for the same thing. Some things calm down my older DS, some make him more alert, etc. We use what works given how he has to shift from one thing to another. For younger DS, who is not terribly in need of sensory stuff, we do use some activities just to give him a break or to get him more alert (he's very sluggish at times). I think you need to see what sticking points you have in your routine, when he might need breaks, etc., and then see what activities work for those. So, if you know you need a calming activity, he chooses from among his calming activities. The hard part is that it might not be the same need every time or fall into the same time slot every time.

 

Curious George is more than potato chips. My kids have learned a lot from it. I think kids learn that it's okay to fail, and they also learn to be more careful to avoid mishaps. The monkey is always getting into something and having to fix it or have someone help him. YMMV, but I think it's much different than watching Tom and Jerry! And George makes my mom giggle until I think she's going to fall over, so it definitely lightens the spirit. :-)

[PeterPan]

Lecka, are those types of control in the VBA book?  Your analysis there is very helpful and it makes sense.  Yes, I was pretty much putting coloring into the reasonable to add to a routine and get him doing it category.  

 

Ok, so we did some things today.  I picked a couple things I thought he ought to be able to do independently (pack his bag for swimming, put away his laundry) and made picture routines for them.  Actually, he's funny, because when I told him my idea (that we could make him a visual page so he could do the task himself), he was VERY excited and knew EXACTLY what he wanted it to look like!  So I just decided to roll with his take on what it should look like.  With him, buy-in is worth a lot.  I want to do that for a couple more things, but for now those are a good start.  The laundry I've been doing WITH him and taught him to do explicitly and entirely, but he never has nailed the steps to do it himself.  He has 4 little drawers, 3 baskets, and a spot to hang, all in one location, and each little drawer holds it's own thing.  Somehow the visual plan seems to make it all clear to him, and when I think about his language scores it makes sense why using language wasn't going to get him there.  I don't even know that he'll constantly need it, but he seems to welcome it.  

 

I'm just saying the laundry wasn't a big step.  I've been teaching him to sort and fold laundry for probably a year now, how to hang up his shirts (very complicated!), etc.  So this was just a small step, not big.  I think he'll be able to do packing his swim bag too.  He definitely liked the idea.

 

So anyways, with the way the buy-in and rolling with his ideas was working, I thought we'd keep going that way.  I told him I wanted to enable him to do some of his school work independently, the things we now have in a box that I normally sit and do with him.  He knows it's on his schedule, but usually I sit and do it with him.  (Dot to dots, a handwriting page, mazes, coin workbook, that kind of thing)  I told him the parameters of what I was looking for to set him up a work station (a cozy nook, lower table so he can use a k5 chair, space for bins with velcro labels and a work system chart.  He, again, was excited, and vetoed all my (admittedly not very perceptive) suggestions and had his own on where to put it.  So I think we now have a plan for that and it just remains the doing.  When I get that set up, I'll tidy his room (which got untidy when he took lego technic in, ugh), and make him a visual list for his morning room check.  For that I think I'll do it with the moveable velcro pics.  

 

I'm also realizing how crazy easy it is to take a pic with my iphone and pull it into a word document to make a page.  I don't know why I was so slow about this, when it's so easy.  Well, I think I didn't know WHY I needed it.  I was doing everything with him, so it didn't make sense.  Now I want to nurture his ability to do some of these steps independently, so it makes sense to give him that support.  And the pages are just plain cute, hehe.  They'll be lovely wall art.   :)

 

[PeterPan]

Any suggestions on how to make a bed easy to make?  He has a down comforter in navy blue (the color it came in, found on clearance at Kohls) and fleece sheets.  Right now I actually make the bed, so he uses a top sheet and the comforter.  With dd I've always gone more european and put a washable cover on the comforter and been done with it.  I could do that, but honestly I'm not sure he could actually shake the thing and get it to lie down flat and tidy anyway.  If I used a twin XL top sheet, it would tuck in further.  If I switched him over to a quilt, it would tuck in and maybe stay neater.  When I was a kid I had this bedspread my mother made that dropped all the way to the floor.  It was flat and just ON.  And I could walk around the bed.  In his room his bed is against the wall.  Maybe that's part of the problem??  

 

It's just silly, because I always assumed a duvet cover was the easiest way to help a kid make his bed, but it seems awkward for ds.  I hadn't really gotten any better ideas.  I can over course continue to go in, but if I could figure out a method he actually could do, then I could put it on the list and work it into the routine.

[PeterPan]

Kbutton, I appreciate your defense of Curious George!  He has made my little monkey very happy.  I think that's why I allow it, because it really is just a bright spot in our day.  His life sorta sucks in some ways, with the Barton remediation, etc. etc.  It would be cruelly ascetic to say he couldn't have CG.  But DT, oh sigh it kills me, and because they're on back to back he can convince himself he has to keep watching and watching and not break away!  But I'm thinking we can find some new structure, pulling DT to a different time slot in our day by streaming it instead.  That way it's ONLY CG in the morning.  That would help.

[Lecka]

The control stuff is not in the VB Approach book.  It is a very basic book, but the basics are vital to me.  

 

I am vague on the control thing.  I know about it b/c my son used to not have "instructional control" and a lot of stuff was "to establish instructional control."  This is (from my understanding) this general sense that you do what a teacher or appropriate adult tells you to do when it is a pretty reasonable and doable thing.  Like -- just having this idea "I should do what the teacher says."  It is the thing that, when he is at recess, and the teacher calls the kids to come inside, will lead him to stop what he is doing and line up with the other children.  (Or this might not be what it is -- I don't really know.)  He might have helpers like a 5-minute warning or being told "after recess is something else you think is cool" to make it an easier transition (and other "make it an easier transition" strategies").  But at a certain point -- he also has to think "hey, I need to do what the teacher says" in a general way.  

 

It is more something that is mentioned to me as "don't worry, this problem behavior will get better as it comes under environmental control."  And that means -- when he develops an awareness of what is expected in his environment, he will behave appropriately to the environment, if he is taken by this idea "yes, everyone else does it, and I should do it, too."  

 

But I do not know if I have read about it.  I think I have just been told about it.  And I have just been told about it like "we are working on it by doing this and this" over the years.  And like "it is important."  But I do not really know about it.  

 

It is a not-so-secret thing that ABA therapists do ABA on parents, too.  At this time I basically trust the therapist and I do not question her like I did earlier on, when I did not trust her.  

 

There is a lot of fodder there for thinking about how it is the same process for kids as they come to trust a therapist.  

 

Oh, I also hear "joint control."  I think this just means, there is more than one type of control.  I am honestly not sure.  It will seem like it makes sense when I hear it in context.  

 

I have had to read all these books partly just to be able to have a conversation with people who seem to speak in such jargon even when trying not to.  They do it at school, too.  And then the speech therapists do not necessarily use the same jargon, and neither do the school teachers.  They all have their own jargon and sometimes they have to check in on what their jargon means with each other.  It drives me completely crazy.

 

Edit:  I just tried googling... instructional control has a ton of responses.  Nothing much for joint control or environmental control, so I may be totally misunderstanding exactly what words are being used for this?  

[PeterPan]

It is a not-so-secret thing that ABA therapists do ABA on parents, too.  At this time I basically trust the therapist and I do not question her like I did earlier on, when I did not trust her.  

 

 

Your explanation about the instructional control, environmental control, etc. is interesting!  That's one of the odd things about working with ds.  He seems to have no sense of doing something because of authority structures.  He merely does it because he wants to (or doesn't want to).  Parental roles, authority, reasons just evade him.  It's really odd to work with and it makes him like a little socialist, seeming to think we comply because someone else is bigger or stronger.  :(   I'd like him to get to another place with that, sigh.  

 

Hmm, your quote there on the ABA therapists doing ABA on the parents, well I can see why it works for you (because you DO trust them and because you're comfortable with the setup).  Thanks for cluing me in on the mind games though.  That would have been an unwelcome surprise.

[mommymonster]

OhE, To my chagrin, DS6 also loves, loves, loves Daniel Tiger. While the tiger is immensely annoying, I've turned him into an ally, helping DS work through his emotions and navigate social situations. . In any case, the tiger can be your friend. One thing that has been popular for DS6 this year has been to print out coloring pages that DS6 is specifically interested in. Perhaps your DS would enjoy coloring practice with Daniel and George...

 

Curious George printables: http://pbskids.org/curiousgeorge/printables/#1

Daniel Tiger printables: http://pbskids.org/daniel/coloring/printables.html 

[Lecka]

It is not exactly a mind game.  They just go about building and establishing a relationship of trust, the same as they do with your child.  They just do it in a deliberate way.  

 

They also will try to shape a parent's behavior by reinforcing things they think are good autism parenting practices, and not reinforcing things they think are not-so-good autism parenting practices, the same as they do with the kids.  

 

It is not exactly a mind game, though.  It is not manipulative, so much as it is purposeful.  I think it is also strategic and thinking about long-term goals.  

 

But when somebody's agenda is "I want to establish a relationship of trust with this person," they do that by acting trustworthy and patient and willing to answer questions.  

 

If their agenda is also "I want to help this person develop good autism parenting practices," they do that by providing information, but also by providing positive or negative feedback. They are just very ABA in how they provide the positive and negative feedback.  

 

The teachers are like this, too.  

 

In a way it makes them very peaceful to deal with.  Like -- if they are very entrenched that, when a child is upset, they adopt a calm manner and talk quietly ----- they will do it to parents, also.  The district autism specialist is totally like this -- and it does work on me.  It makes her really easy to talk to about things that are of concern to me.  If I start to get agitated in talking to her, everything about her is going "I am so calm, won't you be calm with me?"  She does not respond to my starting-to-get-agitated by starting to get agitated herself.

 

But our ABA agency is like -- kind-of upfront that they will bring the principles of behavioral analysis into their relationship with parents in a purposeful way.  They are like "ABA is so awesome!" 

 

I would think poorly of it if they had an agenda that was not "helping kids; helping parents help kids."  But when that is their agenda, I want to be part of that agenda.  

 

But I started out with a high level of suspicion towards them.  I had a kind-of strong initial dislike of the district autism specialist, too, and only stood her b/c someone at my church spoke highly of her.  

 

But they all are like -- okay, parents are usually pretty difficult when they have a newly diagnosed child and don't know what is going on with all these autism treatments.  So they are like -- okay, we are going to try to get along with the parents so that they don't pull their kids out of treatment and go to the allergy doctor who has got a really good rapport with parents.  

 

It is hard to explain -- and I didn't see this with my older son. I took him to speech and OT, and I talked to them, but it was like -- I went into it thinking, "yes, he needs speech, definitely."  I was a little hesitant about OT in some ways, but she easily explained things to me, and took a little time to talk to me (we had a meeting when I talked to her without my son present when we were starting out, and I felt like we were on the same page and everything after that).  

 

But a lot of parents do not start ABA with as much goodwill, especially when it is like "oh, this is all the insurance will cover."  That is how I felt.  Then there is all this terminology and it is not like I have not read the negative reviews on the Internet, too.  

 

But with my younger son, I have seen that the parent/therapist relationship matters a lot more, b/c more trust is needed, and it is just more difficult to say "hey, so this is the therapy I should be doing."  

 

So there is a lot more sucking-up to parents and buttering up parents.  I think this is ubiquitous.  I think ABA therapists do it *the least.*  They just do it in their own ABA way.  

 

I pulled my son from a center with speech/OT and the OT in particular was super-schmoozy, and also in particular was not getting anything done with my son.  But I would sit in the waiting room, and feel like there were parents who were really buying it, and like they walked away feeling good and like the therapist was a great person and caring and personable with them and very pleased with the therapy ---------- regardless of any results the therapist was getting with their child.  There were absolutely kids there making good progress (I think she was excellent for food sensitivity), but it did not seem like the child's progress mattered much to some people if they felt like they had a good vibe with the therapist.  

 

But I do not think that was done with bad intentions, I think the therapist was just naturally good with parents.  But did that mean she was a good therapist?  For all the kids?  No.  She was for some, but she was not effective with my son.  

 

But yeah ---- the parent/therapist relationship is part of their job, and their job is ABA.  They are doing ABA.  

 

But it is not that other people are not doing anything and are just totally without any agenda when speaking to parents, or trying to seem likable to parents, or have a goal of getting along well with parents and communicating clearly with them.  They do have it.  

 

I think this is even a lot of what experienced people have going for them.  It is a lot of why new therapists rub parents the wrong way when speaking to them.  

 

I just try to be as clear-eyed as possible and try to look at what is going on for my child, and try not to get too into "well, this is the therapist I really hit it off with."  Even though that exists, and it does count for something.  But I may hit it off with somebody who is an effective therapist, or not.  

 

There is also the issue of "are they saying what I want to hear?  or are they saying what they really think?"  If they think "well, if I say exactly what I think, this parent will be rubbed totally the wrong way and pull their child," then it does not make sense for them to be like "here you go, this is exactly what I think."  It does make sense for them to slowly say what they think.  This is what all the good therapists do, I think.

 

The bad ones either go all "I will say what you want to hear" OR they are way too blunt and it is just hurtful to hear it, and not possible to take it in.  

 

The good ones will tell you, but they may not lay it all out in one day.  For my older son's OT where I felt like "I have a good impression, but I am not sure what she is about," one meeting with her after a month of my son going, left me feeling very good.  But that was for things that are comparatively straightforward.  

 

Totally separately ---- there is a theory about autism that has some explanation for me.  It is the "mirror neurons" theory.  It says "most people have mirror neurons, and they make people see things other people are doing, and want to mirror them."  Then for autism -- the mirror neurons are not working in the same way somehow. So -- to make up for it, you have to get another way to get kids to want to do things. Because -- where other kids are getting this natural reinforcement, they are not getting it.  So -- you start by providing unnatural reinforcement, and then the kids see "Hey, this is actually pretty cool," and then they move towards natural reinforcement. Also you need to teach them things they are less-able to pick up on their own.   

 

I do not have a super-high attachment to that theory, I think it could be considered laughable in 20 years.  But -- it does make some sense to me.  I think a lot of what we do is trying to encourage the mirror neurons to do whatever they can, and/or build up alternative ways to get the same motivation.  

 

This is a very "motivation" kind of theory of autism.

 

It is not the only theory that I kind-of like.  But it is one of them.  There are a lot and often they are at cross-purposes.  

[geodob]

Lecka, 'mirror neurons' are particular type of neurons, that typically develop in the brain.

Which cause a mirror response.

A good example of this, are facial expressions?  When we observe someones facial expression.

The mirror neurons cause us to mentally imitate the facial expression.

Where the muscles react, as if we had made that facial expression.

So that we read facial expressions, by mentally mirroring them.

So that we feel their smile, frown, anger, puzzlement, whatever.

 

Though if we see someone being injured in some way?

This mirror process puts us in the position of the person being injured.

As if it is happening to us.

Where it is this mirror process, that underpins what we call 'Empathy'.

[PeterPan]

OhE, To my chagrin, DS6 also loves, loves, loves Daniel Tiger. While the tiger is immensely annoying, I've turned him into an ally, helping DS work through his emotions and navigate social situations. . In any case, the tiger can be your friend. One thing that has been popular for DS6 this year has been to print out coloring pages that DS6 is specifically interested in. Perhaps your DS would enjoy coloring practice with Daniel and George...

 

Curious George printables: http://pbskids.org/curiousgeorge/printables/#1

Daniel Tiger printables: http://pbskids.org/daniel/coloring/printables.html 

Thanks, that's a great idea!!  :)

[PeterPan]

Lecka, that made some more things click in my mind.  Thanks.  :)

 

Oh, you'll want to know what they were, lol.  Well if his mirror neurons need work, then anything that is formative has to be done with mirror neurons (paired, together), not independently, duh.  So coloring can't go as independent work but needs to be done together until he's set enough in it that he CAN do it independently.  Yes, I'm slow.  And that might differ with the types, of coloring.  Coloring for a DT coloring page would be together and coloring for a hidden picture could be independent once he has done it with me enough to get comfortable.  

 

That also explains why the psych 1 irks me so much, because he has a voice you want to trust and qualifications, but he doesn't slow down and build rapport in a way that encourages trust.  Instead he rushes you and blows you off with simplistic answers.  It also explains that nagging sense you have of some people being able to handle ds and some not, that you can actually quantify it by how they're able to handle his intensity.  Also explains why sometimes my reactions work and sometimes they don't.  ;)

 

Well I'm tearing his room apart today and working on things.  I don't have our new morning page made yet and things feel chaotic, sigh.  He just wakes up SO on and SO intense.  I'm just taking a break here, then I have to finish the room and get things set up for a new routine.  I think it's going to be easier to push DT and CG entirely to streaming so we can control the timing of it.  I want to get the new Gr-8 Kids routine set up (sort of light combo OT and VT stuff in an obstacle course approach, should be fun).  

 

I was realizing another thing I need to do is get that BrainWorks thing subscribed to and get a folder made.  See, it occurs to me that I actually need that folder around so *I* know what in the world to do with him.  The whole thing is unfathomable to me, looking at him and figuring out what's going on.  I think I need to take the pages of activities, hold them up and compare them to his state throughout the day, and just pick things and try them on him and see how he responds, see what fits, see what quantities bring us peace.  I thought I needed to make a schedule and put him into it, but I actually just need to look at our day and see where the activities most logically fit into it.  Yes, sometimes I'm slow on the draw, lol.  There's actually a lot of modulation I'm realizing that approach could solve for me.  I just need to get that tool to bring it together.  I think that approach, of having a list of things and saying use these when he's at this state, use these when he's at this, trying to bring him back to the middle, back to the middle, that can work.  But I don't think it's something an OT can solve for me.  I think I have to watch him and solve it myself, probably with the aid of dd, who is way more observant than I am.  I don't think I need to wait around for an OT to solve it or even pretend they can.  They're not here.  They can solve discrete segments of time and teach me principles, but really the flow of the whole day is my problem.  That's hard no matter WHO is doing it.  If the kid is in school, you have multiple people approaching it all day long (morning teacher keeping him stable in the morning, afternoon teacher stabilizing in the afternoon, parent stabilizing for an hour in the morning and after school till dinner, parent 2 stabilizing from after dinner till bed.  But in homeschooling one parent (or the house at home) gets most of that dumped on them.

 

Whatever, just thinking.  It takes a while to sort out what your goals are, sigh.  I'm also getting a little tired of therapists suggesting things to use up my funds, rather than thinking in terms of what the BEST use is of the funds.  I've worked for MONTHS to get this scholarship, providing paperwork, going to meetings, on and on, and they just wanna suck up my funds for this whimsical thing and that whimsical thing because they can dream it up??  What a crock.  And I hate to be rude to them, but that's not fair to me or my child.  I can't do just what is good.  I'm going to have to sift all the good ideas and narrow it to the BEST, the most vital, the most important steps.  Oddly enough, I think right now neurofeedback is actually going to be the most important thing for him.  It seems like it gets into the metacognitive and attention level, which will help him notice people's responses, notice things, be less impulsive, etc.  And THAT would create a foundation to work with for everything else.  That just makes sense to me.  So why people feel ok saying come work on social skills, when he's not even at a place where he NOTICES these things is beyond me.  That's WASTING the money.

 

Whatever, just venting there.  I'm getting excited about these changes we're making and the changes and improvements they could bring.  I try to envision us with the peace and stability I want and figure out what it will take to get there.  The IEP process, oddly enough, has been really good for me, because it gave me a fresh perspective on where he's at and where he could be and what it would take to get him there.  It has gotten me over the hump of he's just young, he's just whatever, and gotten me into wondering where he could be with enough support.  (And realizing where he'll be WITHOUT that support.)

[PeterPan]

Ps.  I took him shopping this morning and worked on some non-verbal communication with him.  He's starting to catch on that it's happening.  Now he at least notices I'm pointing.  It seems to wear him out, because at first he'll meet my eyes when I work to get eye contact, but then after one or two times he goes to no eye contact at all and switches to speech.  So he'll pointing and talk and I'm pointing and using non-verbals.  Probably makes us look wacky in the store, hehe, but we were having fun.  

 

 

[LaughingCat]

Any suggestions on how to make a bed easy to make?  He has a down comforter in navy blue (the color it came in, found on clearance at Kohls) and fleece sheets.  Right now I actually make the bed, so he uses a top sheet and the comforter.  With dd I've always gone more european and put a washable cover on the comforter and been done with it.  I could do that, but honestly I'm not sure he could actually shake the thing and get it to lie down flat and tidy anyway.  If I used a twin XL top sheet, it would tuck in further.  If I switched him over to a quilt, it would tuck in and maybe stay neater.  When I was a kid I had this bedspread my mother made that dropped all the way to the floor.  It was flat and just ON.  And I could walk around the bed.  In his room his bed is against the wall.  Maybe that's part of the problem??  

 

It's just silly, because I always assumed a duvet cover was the easiest way to help a kid make his bed, but it seems awkward for ds.  I hadn't really gotten any better ideas.  I can over course continue to go in, but if I could figure out a method he actually could do, then I could put it on the list and work it into the routine.

 

I got nothing on the rest of the thread -- but on the both kids beds I just have a fitted sheet and a washable twin comforter.    Light and super easy for them to straighten.    No cover needed -- I just throw the whole comforter in the wash.

 

Note: I am not one who feels to wash the sheets weekly though!

[kbutton]

Well I'm tearing his room apart today and working on things.  I don't have our new morning page made yet and things feel chaotic, sigh.  He just wakes up SO on and SO intense.  I'm just taking a break here, then I have to finish the room and get things set up for a new routine.  I think it's going to be easier to push DT and CG entirely to streaming so we can control the timing of it.  I want to get the new Gr-8 Kids routine set up (sort of light combo OT and VT stuff in an obstacle course approach, should be fun).  

 

I was realizing another thing I need to do is get that BrainWorks thing subscribed to and get a folder made.  See, it occurs to me that I actually need that folder around so *I* know what in the world to do with him.  The whole thing is unfathomable to me, looking at him and figuring out what's going on.  I think I need to take the pages of activities, hold them up and compare them to his state throughout the day, and just pick things and try them on him and see how he responds, see what fits, see what quantities bring us peace.  I thought I needed to make a schedule and put him into it, but I actually just need to look at our day and see where the activities most logically fit into it.  Yes, sometimes I'm slow on the draw, lol.  There's actually a lot of modulation I'm realizing that approach could solve for me.  I just need to get that tool to bring it together.  I think that approach, of having a list of things and saying use these when he's at this state, use these when he's at this, trying to bring him back to the middle, back to the middle, that can work.  But I don't think it's something an OT can solve for me.  I think I have to watch him and solve it myself, probably with the aid of dd, who is way more observant than I am.  I don't think I need to wait around for an OT to solve it or even pretend they can.  They're not here.  They can solve discrete segments of time and teach me principles, but really the flow of the whole day is my problem.  That's hard no matter WHO is doing it.  If the kid is in school, you have multiple people approaching it all day long (morning teacher keeping him stable in the morning, afternoon teacher stabilizing in the afternoon, parent stabilizing for an hour in the morning and after school till dinner, parent 2 stabilizing from after dinner till bed.  But in homeschooling one parent (or the house at home) gets most of that dumped on them.

 

Whatever, just thinking.  It takes a while to sort out what your goals are, sigh.  I'm also getting a little tired of therapists suggesting things to use up my funds, rather than thinking in terms of what the BEST use is of the funds.  I've worked for MONTHS to get this scholarship, providing paperwork, going to meetings, on and on, and they just wanna suck up my funds for this whimsical thing and that whimsical thing because they can dream it up??  What a crock.  And I hate to be rude to them, but that's not fair to me or my child.  I can't do just what is good.  I'm going to have to sift all the good ideas and narrow it to the BEST, the most vital, the most important steps.  Oddly enough, I think right now neurofeedback is actually going to be the most important thing for him.  It seems like it gets into the metacognitive and attention level, which will help him notice people's responses, notice things, be less impulsive, etc.  And THAT would create a foundation to work with for everything else.  That just makes sense to me.  So why people feel ok saying come work on social skills, when he's not even at a place where he NOTICES these things is beyond me.  That's WASTING the money.

 

Whatever, just venting there.  I'm getting excited about these changes we're making and the changes and improvements they could bring.  I try to envision us with the peace and stability I want and figure out what it will take to get there.  The IEP process, oddly enough, has been really good for me, because it gave me a fresh perspective on where he's at and where he could be and what it would take to get him there.  It has gotten me over the hump of he's just young, he's just whatever, and gotten me into wondering where he could be with enough support.  (And realizing where he'll be WITHOUT that support.)

 

OT and the sensory stuff: you are right on with this. Our OT helped us through this with Zones. When we did zones work, she would bring out a set of sensory tools to fit a scenario or one or two tools that could be used several ways. Each week, my son would be allowed to use them, see how they made him feel, etc. This included therapeutic listening, kinetic sand, sensory toys, wobble seats--the whole gamut. But never just random tools at random times--we tried a few at a time. Some tools were techniques, such as figure 8 breathing, stretches up against the wall, or a series of calming actions. At some point during the zones training, The OT would discuss with my son what zones the tool would change--some tools did nothing good or bad. Some tools took my son from the red or yellow zone to the green zone. Some took him from blue to green. Some took him to yellow or red, which is not what we wanted! Zones has charts you can use to track this stuff, but it would be easy enough for you to make your own version. I think your son may not quite be ready to do this himself, though you can certainly ask him some questions to gauge his state of being, and then chart the circumstance. You could have tools up and down one side with the zones across the top. You could do the same thing with a list of activities throughout the day, and the zones across the top. You might see a pattern emerge. Having your DD help sounds like a great idea--two heads are almost always better than one for these things. 

 

The therapists know their piece of the puzzle, not your son. They are enthusiastic about their piece because they are convinced that what they do is worthwhile. It's okay to be frustrated, but I think some of this is likely a result of seeing people passionate about something they believe in. They will not necessarily understand your options or your son as a whole well enough to run the circus. 

 

Random Idea: narrowing down choices that are available to him. I know you have a lot of things to choose to do in your home and homeschool. It's a veritable buffet of fun stuff. There is nothing wrong with that, but I wonder if you narrowed things down bit by bit, over the summer, and put some things out of sight, would that help when it's time to do schoolwork? The choices are just not there "for now." You could even use some arbitrary system, like "this is our July work; we'll do that other thing again in September." It's just a thought. Another thing that we were told is that we should do our school stuff in the same place every day. We don't have to do the same work or do it in the same order, but we do it in the same place. If that works for you, perhaps you can get into a habit, along with the visual schedule, of putting the things you want to do in a given day in the "school spot" plus one or two valid choices. If it's not in the school spot, it's unavailable until after school hours. Just some thoughts on the choice thing. No criticism of whatever you do now. You might have to get creative (or find a distraction) when he asks where all the other stuff went, but that's okay. My arbitrary way of doing this is whether something seems like a lot of work/mess/transition, etc. Realize that I am coming from this from a perspective of not being "up" for nearly as much as you are, lol! 

[PeterPan]

Kbutton, there's a line of russian poetry that always come to mind in situations like this, but it wouldn't help the conversation any.  :D  Yes, I like your ideas and you're making a few things click.  Working backwards here, I think what you're highlighting is that in fact BECAUSE our house is open concept (more or less), there ISN'T that really tight, defined space.  So there's not that sense of we're here, this is what we do in this space.  I have spaces for things, designated spaces, but they aren't conducive to that sense.  It occurs to might I might be able to define a space in that way, but I'll have to think about it.  I mean, seriously that's a pretty fundamental thing about how you approach your educational experience, whether you want it to be in a room or happening in life.  And that question of whether Barton should be done at the dining table (because it's in the center of things and can happen in stolen moments) or in a room dedicated to the purpose to get mindset, these are very good questions.  And I'm not sure there's ONE ANSWER that is the right answer for all kids, but I'm definitely open to your observation that maybe I haven't made the right decision for MY kid.  It's a totally valid question.  And if our approach is without observation or noticing the consequences on him, that's not cool.

 

Or, put another way, if I could stop the bolting just by having a more defined space, that would be awfully brilliant, frankly.  Like worth taking the bed and stuff out of the guest room to create the really defined space.  I've got a 15X15 guest room.  I could repaint it some mentally chipper color and do that.  It would be a totally defined, discrete location with walls and doors and two windows for adequate but not overstimulating light.  I like the room and have thought of converting it to a sewing room.  Guess you could say the space calls to me.

 

I really don't know.  But you're right, every space in our home is so open and connected.  What is now dd's sewing area used to be our school room.  Even that is open, and with no windows it was too psychologically oppressive for long-term schooling.  We finally gave up and started migrating.  So I need to think about it and consult with my resident psychological expert (dd).  She'll know how that would be.  It's not like we use that room a ton.  It's just there's a waterbed, a really old waterbed, and it's sort of a pain to set up and undo, making it a decision, not a whim kinda thing.  The idea is fun, but if I made that change and DIDN'T stick with using the room that would be uncool.  BUT if that change would help with the bolting, that would be such an ENORMOUS improvement.  Serious, we just have too many issues with impulsivity and mindset right now.  I think you're right that there has to be a psychological shift to get him from play mode and into work mode.  I'll have to think about it.

 

Hmm, I didn't realize your OT had tied to exploration of sensory techniques to ZoR.  Fascinating.  So you are using them reactively or preventatively or both?  See I finally realized, in a way ZoR is looking at emotions for their red to green and reactive (you're in this state so do something to fix it).  Brainworks, targeted obviously at younger kids, is looking more at behavioral speed (body, mind) and using sensory proactively, before the inappropriate whatever, to get them to yellow and keep them yellow (middle, target).  So it made my mind whirl with what I'm trying to accomplish, whether I'm being reactive or preventative.  In reality, we need both tools, lol.

[PeterPan]

On the "options" yes that would be one idea, to take them away.  I did this with dd (you know me, to an extreme), keeping ALL the toys up high, and she now says it was the most horrible, cruel thing ever.  Can't win.

[prairiewindmomma]

Our boys have just a fitted sheet and a lightweight blanket on their bed with a pillow. If you tuck the blanket around the bottom it isn't too hard to make as you just have to pull it up, not straighten it.

 

Skim DT for topics. There is a wide range of great stuff there. The emotional regulation songs are great ("when you're feeling frustrated" and"when you feel so mad that you want to roar" both encourage awareness and counting"). The toileting videos where they show EVERY type of toilet and how to flush it are awesome. DT is annoying, but there are four seasons of episodes to choose from on prime and we've found it helpful.

 

Zones of Regulation--talking about how our body feels when we are angry and matching that to DT was helpful for one of mine. He had a hard time distinguishing between irritated/frustrated/angry/nuclear meltdown.

[PeterPan]

Thanks Prairie, that makes sense!  

[kbutton]

On the "options" yes that would be one idea, to take them away.  I did this with dd (you know me, to an extreme), keeping ALL the toys up high, and she now says it was the most horrible, cruel thing ever.  Can't win.

 

Lol, if you can find a way to separate them in your mind, it won't have to be all or nothing. You should have them where they aren't staring at him and mocking him though!

[kbutton]

Kbutton, there's a line of russian poetry that always come to mind in situations like this, but it wouldn't help the conversation any.   :D  Yes, I like your ideas and you're making a few things click.  Working backwards here, I think what you're highlighting is that in fact BECAUSE our house is open concept (more or less), there ISN'T that really tight, defined space.  So there's not that sense of we're here, this is what we do in this space.  I have spaces for things, designated spaces, but they aren't conducive to that sense.  It occurs to might I might be able to define a space in that way, but I'll have to think about it.  I mean, seriously that's a pretty fundamental thing about how you approach your educational experience, whether you want it to be in a room or happening in life.  And that question of whether Barton should be done at the dining table (because it's in the center of things and can happen in stolen moments) or in a room dedicated to the purpose to get mindset, these are very good questions.  And I'm not sure there's ONE ANSWER that is the right answer for all kids, but I'm definitely open to your observation that maybe I haven't made the right decision for MY kid.  It's a totally valid question.  And if our approach is without observation or noticing the consequences on him, that's not cool.

 

Or, put another way, if I could stop the bolting just by having a more defined space, that would be awfully brilliant, frankly.  Like worth taking the bed and stuff out of the guest room to create the really defined space.  I've got a 15X15 guest room.  I could repaint it some mentally chipper color and do that.  It would be a totally defined, discrete location with walls and doors and two windows for adequate but not overstimulating light.  I like the room and have thought of converting it to a sewing room.  Guess you could say the space calls to me.

 

I really don't know.  But you're right, every space in our home is so open and connected.  What is now dd's sewing area used to be our school room.  Even that is open, and with no windows it was too psychologically oppressive for long-term schooling.  We finally gave up and started migrating.  So I need to think about it and consult with my resident psychological expert (dd).  She'll know how that would be.  It's not like we use that room a ton.  It's just there's a waterbed, a really old waterbed, and it's sort of a pain to set up and undo, making it a decision, not a whim kinda thing.  The idea is fun, but if I made that change and DIDN'T stick with using the room that would be uncool.  BUT if that change would help with the bolting, that would be such an ENORMOUS improvement.  Serious, we just have too many issues with impulsivity and mindset right now.  I think you're right that there has to be a psychological shift to get him from play mode and into work mode.  I'll have to think about it.

 

Hmm, I didn't realize your OT had tied to exploration of sensory techniques to ZoR.  Fascinating.  So you are using them reactively or preventatively or both?  See I finally realized, in a way ZoR is looking at emotions for their red to green and reactive (you're in this state so do something to fix it).  Brainworks, targeted obviously at younger kids, is looking more at behavioral speed (body, mind) and using sensory proactively, before the inappropriate whatever, to get them to yellow and keep them yellow (middle, target).  So it made my mind whirl with what I'm trying to accomplish, whether I'm being reactive or preventative.  In reality, we need both tools, lol.

 

Also, since we are on the stimulating thing...my DS can't handle the clutter of classrooms. He's fairly drawn to it, but then it's overwhelming. I think I read a study article once about how distracting all those teacher-ish posters and such actually are to all kids, but that's another topic. So, DS's response to those sorts of things is another reason that limiting things is helpful for us. And yes, being committed to a certain kind of ideology is great, but sometimes it doesn't fit what's happening in front of us.

 

Yes, zones is tied very closely to sensory regulation (but all kinds of regulation, really). It can be both proactive and reactive. The idea is that you know yourself more over time, and then you can get better at the regulating. You're really going to have to be making these connections for now, not him. But, OT for sensory toned that all down a bit for us, and meds helped as well. We have a narrower list of things to react to at this point than we've ever had. Too many transitions do not suit him well--he'd rather stick with something than be interrupted a lot. My younger kiddo is more flighty and needs more breaks. But he needs very short ones. Your situation is probably a little of both. 

 

You may find a completely different way to define a "space" for him that is more mental than anything, or you may find a different way to narrow the options to give him a more specific focus. 

[kbutton]

You might even come up with a place that is more confined, but not as confined as dedicated room, and you might try making school a traveling exhibit. He could have his visual schedules live in that area within a larger area and maybe some major supplies live there, but you could use a rolling cart or other tool to hold the day's or week's activities and work. The boundary would be whatever is holding school, and there is some choice, it's just confined entirely to the cart.

[Lecka]

My son has had goals recently related to following two-step directions, so I have noticed, the resource room has a lot of things that are stored in a visually non-cluttered way, but are also accessible to students.  So there are a lot of natural opportunities for kids to follow a direction to get things out and put things away. 

 

Bolting has been complicated at my house.  There are a lot of possible elements.  Is he running "away" from the instruction?  Why?  Too bored?  Too hard?  Not enough reinforcement?  Reinforcement not good enough?  Too much work expected before he gets reinforcement?  Or, is he running "toward" something he wants?  Is this something he *could* have if he asked for it in a different way (like, a snack or a drink of water)?  How can I help him communicate what he wants, and talk to him about when he can have what he wants, if the answer is "first finish this, then you can have that" or something like that. 

 

But sometimes it is a game, he likes to be chased, he thinks it is amusing.  

 

Separately -- keep in mind that the word "independent" means a different thing in my usage, which is, a more special education kind of usage.  Like -- independent behavior is things like washing hands, going in a bathroom stall and knowing to use toilet paper and flush, being able to pick out a toy to play with that you choose for yourself -- and choosing for yourself how to play with it.  Asking for a drink or snack.  Putting on and zipping a coat.  Asking to wear a coat because you are cold.  Asking to take off a sweater because you are hot.  

 

It is a really broad word, but "independent behavior" for a pre-school or Kindergarten child, is stuff that I doubt would seem too objectionable for being "too independent."  But it is definitely good not to have kids be too independent, too.

 

Our personal situation is also that my son has one-on-one aide support for the entire day at school, and so there is an inherent risk for him to fail to develop independence unless it is something that is kept in mind as "not a good idea."  It is something that is always brought up and it is a "con" of one-on-one aide support.  

 

It is the opposite of the experience that people have whose kids do not qualify for help they need.  My son qualifies for help, but there is a danger of it stifling him and being counter-productive.  There is a danger of him not having opportunities to do things for himself and missing out on all of those learning and problem-solving opportunities that he needs so badly.  

 

It is a known danger and there are steps to take to try to keep this from happening, but it is the kind of thing that people worry about in my situation.  

 

Keep in mind also -- there is a lot of interplay between physiological and emotional inner states.  This means -- you feel embarassed, you feel your face get warm.  You feel nervous, you feel it in your stomach.  You feel excited, your heart beats faster.  

 

So it depends on how it is being talked about exactly ----- but there is always a link between sensory, emotion, and physiological states.  It is not like there is an artificial divide between a problem that is talking about it from a more sensory take, or one from a more emotional take.  They are really talking about the same thing in a way.  

 

A lot of kids are not able to identify their emotional state, too, and my understanding is that there are times that in identifying an emotional state, part of the way it is taught, is by teaching kids to monitor their phsyiological signs.  Like -- they could have the phsyiological signs of being upset, but not have consciously identified they feel upset.  So that being aware of the physiological signs is a foundational skill towards recognizing an emotion you are having.

 

At our last IEP meeting I was told that my son was doing well with identifiying emotions in others in a variety of situations, but he was not able to identify his own emotion nearly as well.  I am recommended to talk through with him and help him identify his emotion any time it comes up (for happy, sad, excited, and angry).  Part of this is that when he says "happy" or "excited" he gets a good reaction "awesome!  high five!" and so he needs to get a kind of good reaction for sad and angry too, but obviously it can't be "awesome!  high five!"  So we have to pay attention and appreciate him saying "sad" and "angry" or he is not going to learn to self-identify these emotions (as this seems like his learning style to a huge degree, in general, and he often learns to memorize an answer that got him a good reaction, even if it does not make sense and it not what he means or wants).  

 

Also, to some extent -- a technique is a technique whether it is used "before" or "after."  It is the same technique, but it may work out differently whether it is used before or after.  It is not that the technique itself is different.  This kind of language possibly comes from "antecedent, behavior, consequence" and "contingent behavior" terminology from ABA.  This is just an idea that sometimes it matters whether something happens before or after a behavior.  It is different from a kind of "pure sensory" where it would not matter what relationship the sensory technique to what else is going on ----- where it might be just an "input/result" idea, where the sensory input is receive and the outcome occurs.  That is not the total idea, when it gets melded in with more "behavior" ideas about "well, it does matter what the context it and how it is used in the context."  Except really, I think this is just a pretty multidisciplinary kind of idea now, on both sides.  

[PeterPan]

Lol, if you can find a way to separate them in your mind, it won't have to be all or nothing. You should have them where they aren't staring at him and mocking him though!

:lol: 

[PeterPan]

Also, since we are on the stimulating thing...my DS can't handle the clutter of classrooms. He's fairly drawn to it, but then it's overwhelming. I think I read a study article once about how distracting all those teacher-ish posters and such actually are to all kids, but that's another topic. So, DS's response to those sorts of things is another reason that limiting things is helpful for us. And yes, being committed to a certain kind of ideology is great, but sometimes it doesn't fit what's happening in front of us.

 

Yes, zones is tied very closely to sensory regulation (but all kinds of regulation, really). It can be both proactive and reactive. The idea is that you know yourself more over time, and then you can get better at the regulating. You're really going to have to be making these connections for now, not him. But, OT for sensory toned that all down a bit for us, and meds helped as well. We have a narrower list of things to react to at this point than we've ever had. Too many transitions do not suit him well--he'd rather stick with something than be interrupted a lot. My younger kiddo is more flighty and needs more breaks. But he needs very short ones. Your situation is probably a little of both. 

 

You may find a completely different way to define a "space" for him that is more mental than anything, or you may find a different way to narrow the options to give him a more specific focus. 

Going to visit the local autism charter was a huge lightbulb moment for me.  Their rooms are the way I decorate: spartan with wide open spaces.  For me it was just very peaceful.  To dd, that lack of clutter is the opposite of what she needs.  I think it's sensory for her, that she (only adhd) is intensely drawn to being surrounded by stuff.  She's sort of like a mouse, filling in corners in her room, hanging extra curtains, hanging things across the ceiling, the whole burrowing thing.  But you're right, ds' room is very spartan, with a bed, the obligatory deer head, a dresser and a rug.  Oh, he has a chest now.  We remove toys, etc. etc., and there's a very calm light stone color on the wall.  He even commented on it, that that's all he wants in his room, that it makes him feel peaceful.  

 

On consulting with him further, I think we're going to set up a work table in his space and see how that improves our flow.  He wants to be able to work right when he wakes up, and it actually fits his energy levels and how we work best.  We used to work every day for an hour before breakfast when we were downstairs, where it flowed, but once he got his new room we lost that flow.  I think he's right that regaining it would fit us well and solve a lot of problems.  He's also into timers right now and wants time amounts for things, lol.  What a hoot.  

 

Nope, no short sessions with him.  I know what you mean, because that was dd with adhd-inattentive.  With ds, he can sit down and work for 45 minutes.  It's really astonishing.  

[PeterPan]

You might even come up with a place that is more confined, but not as confined as dedicated room, and you might try making school a traveling exhibit. He could have his visual schedules live in that area within a larger area and maybe some major supplies live there, but you could use a rolling cart or other tool to hold the day's or week's activities and work. The boundary would be whatever is holding school, and there is some choice, it's just confined entirely to the cart.

Yup, this is sort of where I've been going in my mind, with sub-routines in his room within larger routines for the day.  And yes, I think at those IU links they called that a work system, where you'd have bins and just change out what's in them.  People popularized it calling them workboxes.  I got a drawer tower, but we're really not good with things that are tight, small, and disappear.  The work systems I'm seeing online use something big enough to hold the project or task, something you can slap a big velcro label on and then move the label to the chart as it's completed, etc.  So yes, something like that is where I'm going with it.  Just trying to let it come together.  I've been going through google image (mildly unsuccessfully) to find pictures to inspire me.  

[PeterPan]

Lecka, that was a very complicated response that I need to chew on.  Yes, it's sometimes running away, sometimes toward, and sometimes for a thing he wants that would otherwise be fine but better handled with an if/then approach.  I like your point that we need to do some pre-teaching on how to handle that 3rd category.  It's becoming a game with him.  Yes, he likes being chased and the attention that results, sigh.  (That was not hard to anticipate, lol.)  

 

I think I may have to talk with him and problem solve.  Some of the things, like him sitting down to work and then saying he's hungry, are situations where he wouldn't even have that option in school.  He does at home and he knows it.  Part of it can be wanting an out (say when we're sitting down to do Barton), but some of it can be that he really didn't slow down enough to think about how his body was feeling.  So some pre-planning and structure on my part could help with that.  And really, snacks during Barton DO help keep him engaged and motivated.  

 

That's a good point that the list of appropriate, actually independent, things for K5 is kinda short, lol.  Focused and not-distracted would be a good middle ground.  I think our space change will help with that.  We're at least going to try it.