Exactly HOW is Catholic not Christian?

[Murphy101]

Because there is no evidence that she can hear you. The only Biblical evidence about the saints in heaven is that they are focussing completely on God and what God is doing or about to do.

 

there's no evidence, according to you, of many things then.

it is just as likely that the saints are focused on God, and that God has allowed them to hear us as well and that God could send them to do His bidding.

 

In this case, you are ascribing to him powers that he does not have, and therefore being distracted from praying to God. Not so great for your spiritual life, IMO. And also inconsistent with the stated teaching that Catholics are not supposed to ask the saints for anything but intercession. There is just no reason to think that St. Anthony's spirit could put the keys in your pocket, nor that God wouldn't be more capable of it.

 

what powers? I ascribe ZERO powers to him. He is simply someon in the presence of God who can do as God wills.

 

And I absolutely didn't say tht he was more capable than God. I thought I made it clear that anything that that might come of that prayer woudl be done via God. IF St. Anthony had anythgn to do with it, it would purely be at God order.

 

Yes, RCIA is thorough and complete. But it tends to be ahistorical, where the history that is left out is the way that Catholics used to be taught, and very strongly, by their church here in the US (and probably other places, but I don't have personal knowledge of that.) And it is that history which has to be dealt with, I think.

QUOTE]

 

no, I'm NOT talking about RCIA. (which is hit or miss as to how good it is because it's taught by volunteers who may or may not care to have deep theologic discussions)

 

I mean pure and simple, there's plenty of information for anyone to partake of. Good grief, if nothing else they can ask same as the folks here have done.

 

I think that maybe you don't realize how clearly some other denominations train their children and adults and pass on their view. It's really not that difficult.

 

I think you might over-rate it. I live int eh protestant belt and I bet most of them couldn't tell you what they believe other than "I believe in Jesus and he died for my sins" anything beyond that and they are very often clueless. They don't know why they are whatever denomination, if any, much less the foundations of christian church history.

 

I don't think that it's true that cradle Catholics are generally lazy in their faith formation, but rather that many of them were taught wrongly in Catholic schools as kids and even if their adult life corrects some of that, it's not right for the Catholics to teach so differently at different stages and not own that. And to the extent that this obscures the Gospel, it's really pretty shocking.

 

I agree they may have been taught wrong, in fact, I KNOW some were. But you know what? There comes a time when one has to own their faith themselves. Ignorance of truth when education on the matter is readily available is really no longer an excuse.

 

We all teach children, and I'll bet your children understand Roman Catholic teachings better than the children of many cradle Catholics, because you're teaching them clearly.

 

well I hope so.

 

I haven't seen where they have been excommunicated. In fact, I know people in it, that is how I first heard the outlandish things being taught, and brought my questions to the catholic forum. The thing is, why aren't these false teachers defrocked and tossed out? Put someone in that will teach what the Catholic church adheres to. Is it that difficult? (serious question, no snark)

 

I did not say they were excommunicated! YIKES! I said they had been warned they were risking it, which is true. They are trodding on the edge so to speak.

 

A priest can be removed from his post, but he will still be a priest.

A priest cannot be unmade a priest.

Just like I cannot be unmade a wife and mother, even if my children were to disown me.

 

It's actually more complicated than that. I'll get details for you later.

 

And if the sheep will not follow the shepherd...

 

it's very complicated.

and yet very simple.

and enitrely very sad.

 

 

 

No one ever said that every belief of the Church came from the Bible. In order to understand the saints helping and the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary, one has to accept the authority of Tradition of the Church along with the Bible. But if one is not going to accept Tradition, then it is very difficult and impossible to understand some teachings in the context of just the Bible because the explanations involve Tradtion. The Church has documents, teachings of the Doctors of the Church, the Catechism, and other sources outside of the Bible. In fact, the sacraments of Penance and the Holy Eucharist in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are Biblical and many Protestants reject those two items, such as Jesus only meant for Holy Communion to be symbolic and not actually His Body and Blood.

 

thanks! :iagree:with what she said.

 

In reference to the wrong teaching in the Catholic classes, could you give a concrete example of a teaching that was incorrectly taught to Catholics? I'm not sure what you are talking about.

 

some folks "missed" lessons like no birth control, holy days of obligation (vs fun days to consider partaking of) and so forth.

 

sad, but it did and does happen.

 

and many people just get used to going through the motions and don't learn their faith until people ask them about it.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Martha

[mommaduck]

[/b]I did not say they were excommunicated! YIKES! I said they had been warned they were risking it, which is true. They are trodding on the edge so to speak.

 

A priest can be removed from his post, but he will still be a priest.

A priest cannot be unmade a priest.

Just like I cannot be unmade a wife and mother, even if my children were to disown me.

 

It's actually more complicated than that. I'll get details for you later.

 

And if the sheep will not follow the shepherd...

 

it's very complicated.

and yet very simple.

and enitrely very sad.

 

Thank you, I would appreciate it. Guess I find it confusing when they have defrocked other priests in the past and declared them heretics (?) (Name is on the tip of my tongue, but escapes me at the moment)

 

(worse things heard were that the many of the "stories" in the Scriptures were just stories to give good moral lessons and that they didn't really happen :confused: YIKES)

[Murphy101]

Martha, I have to tell you that reading your posts here has been wonderfully informative for me. Although I married someone raised in the Catholic tradition, I have next to no real knowledge about it. I've attended weddings and funerals, and once I even attended a prayer session (yes, truly!) for a child in our community who was suffering from a brain tumour and its treatment.

 

There are many things I have always wondered about and you've answered many of them without even knowing it. So, I thank you for that.

 

FWIW, I have always had a fascination with religions and my desire to learn about differences is an honest one. I like to hear the hows and whys directly from people who are walk their path, no matter what that path may be. I truly appreciate the excellent dialogue here and the reasoned explanations from all sides on the issue(s).

 

oh my. you're very welcome.:blush:

[mommaduck]

My husband found a verse in Revelations that gave me food for thought, though still not in total agreement on method and such...(runs to find his bible) Revelation 5:8-10. If anyone wants to discuss this one back and forth from both sides, I'm curious :)

[Peek a Boo]

The shortest answer is no.

 

Jewish identity can come from birth or conversion - and here there is modern controversy.

 

Orthodox conversions are universally accepted, but the Orthodox world ... does not accept non-Orthodox conversions since part of the conversion process is accepting kabbalos ol mitzvos (the yoke of the mitzvos) - iow traditional observance - and since the other movements don't hold by traditional observance the assumption is that their converts haven't made that commitment (and weren't given the background to make such a commitment even if they wanted to). Each non-Orthodox movement accepts its own conversion procedures , but not all of each other's.

 

...but I think your question was mixing two very different issues; an individual's Jewish identity (his/her halachic status as a Jew or a non-Jew) and the Jewishness of a religious branch...

 

Movements begun by Jews *within a Jewish framework* are never, *never* written off as "non-Jewish" without a lot of time, thought, and halachic consideration... and, as you can see from the examples above, it has never been done over *beliefs* - the concern is always the best interests of the Jewish people as a whole...

 

So, although we are deeply reluctant to cut a branch of our people, we do not hesitate to object when outside groups who have chosen to take on some of our practices and terminology try to label themselves as Jewish.

 

...so there are no sects (that I know of) started by Jews within a Jewish framework which identify themselves as currently Jewish and are rejected by Judaism (traditional or otherwise). There are *practices* and *beliefs* in the non-Orthodox movements which I, and Orthodox Judaism in general, hold are not true to the Torah, but labeling the movements themselves as non-Jewish would be hurtful, divisive, and, imnsho, harmful to the Jewish people as a whole.

 

Does that answer your question, Peek? Or did you have something else in mind?

Thanks Eliana :)

 

I understand that your short answer was "no" but the first part i bolded seems to imply otherwise...? I will -for the sake of discussion- stick w/ just the Jewishness of a religious branch [as you put it].

 

[bear with me- i'm still taking in the info you shared :)]

 

So if Orthodox Jews are not going to accept the conversion of a non-Orthodox Jew, then how does "acceptance as a real Jew" happen/ look like? I understand that *you* would never call them non-Jewish [like I would never call most denominations non-Christian], but various church leaders would disagree with me. What does the situation look like for a non-Orthodox Jew to try worshipping w/ an Orthodox Jew? [feel free to rephrase that to more accurately state what i'm trying to ask :D]

[Murphy101]

Thank you, I would appreciate it. Guess I find it confusing when they have defrocked other priests in the past and declared them heretics (?) (Name is on the tip of my tongue, but escapes me at the moment)

 

(worse things heard were that the many of the "stories" in the Scriptures were just stories to give good moral lessons and that they didn't really happen :confused: YIKES)

 

being defrocked and being called a heretic does not change what someone is.

 

excommunication is when a person purposely does something that removes them from the body of Christ, which is not an easy thing to do btw. it is not something the church does to someone. It is something a person does to themselves.

 

okay, that's it until tomorrow folks. I've got to feed kids and watch Heros with my boys!

 

great discussion though.

 

sharpening my mind for how to teach my kids how to answer these questions!

[Michele B]

My husband found a verse in Revelations that gave me food for thought, though still not in total agreement on method and such...(runs to find his bible) Revelation 5:8-10. If anyone wants to discuss this one back and forth from both sides, I'm curious :)

 

What about?:bigear:

[mommaduck]

What about?:bigear:

The heavenly saints (not angels) with the bowls carrying prayers....

[bella_gitana]

I had never heard that Catholics are not Christians until we moved to Texas. There was a very large homeschool group here that disbanded because of this very issue.

[Michele B]

I had never heard that Catholics are not Christians until we moved to Texas. There was a very large homeschool group here that disbanded because of this very issue.

 

 

wow. That is just sad.

[Brigitte]

For our marriage validation/blessing last month, we had to meet with the priest 4 times. I am baptized Catholic, but never had been confirmed (I was confirmed at Easter Vigil 4 days after our validation). My husband is Lutheran.

 

I think that the four meetings, at least 1 week apart, or a weekend retreat is pretty standard for the Catholic Church.

[Carol in Cal.]

"there's no evidence, according to you, of many things then.

it is just as likely that the saints are focused on God, and that God has allowed them to hear us as well and that God could send them to do His bidding."

Yes, it does come back to authority. It also comes back to what is someone risking? I don't think that failing to pray to the saints risks anything, although I don't see any particular reason to do so. But I also think that praying to the saints does have some risks. I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood, and when my next door neighbor came over and we talked about our respective schools, she talked a lot about stories about Mary's life after the Ascension, but was not familiar with the sort of basic Bible stories that a lot of kids learn in church. Now, at the time the Latin mass was still required, so she was not hearing the Bible in church except in Latin, which she did not understand, and she wasn't hearing much about it at her Catholic school either. She was youngish--9 or so I think--and I certainly would not draw any broad conclusions about the Catholic church from that experience--it's just an example of the 'perhaps OK' crowding out the 'really significant'.

 

 

 

 

"what powers? I ascribe ZERO powers to him. He is simply someon in the presence of God who can do as God wills. "

Well, you're ascribing to him the power to hear you and the power to move those keys into your pocket. You were lighthearted about it, and I don't mean to overstate what you said, but I don't see how there is a basis to ascribe either of those capabilities to him.

 

"And I absolutely didn't say tht he was more capable than God. I thought I made it clear that anything that that might come of that prayer woudl be done via God. IF St. Anthony had anythgn to do with it, it would purely be at God order."

But, see, the prayer doesn't say that. Maybe that's how you interpret it, which is really interesting, but it says something else.

 

"no, I'm NOT talking about RCIA. (which is hit or miss as to how good it is because it's taught by volunteers who may or may not care to have deep theologic discussions)"

Hey, don't give me a hard time for complimenting your church!! :001_smile: Seriously, as an outsider, the people I know who have gone through RCIA seem to really know their church's teachings. Frankly, IME, a lot better than most cradle Catholics. It's really a credit to the Catholic church to have been able to do such a good job with adult information materials.

 

 

"I agree they may have been taught wrong, in fact, I KNOW some were. But you know what? There comes a time when one has to own their faith themselves. Ignorance of truth when education on the matter is readily available is really no longer an excuse. "

 

Well, but more than in most faiths the Catholic church teaches people to accept their teaching, not to delve into it so much, but more to just accept it as stated. So if things are stated that contradict what was said before, a lot of parishioners, especially those who went to Catholic schools, really don't know what to do.

 

So here is an example. A colleague of mine went to pre-Cana classes in the early 80's. She was so faithful to all the Catholic teachings that she would not even go on BCP to cure a non-s*xual problem, though this made her anemic and her doctor was pushing her to do so. So when she and her fiance went to the pre-Cana classes, their priest told them to start having s*x regularly and talking about money and children, all immediately and before marriage, because those are the three things that married couples fight about the most. She was pretty shocked at that, and because she was accustomed to thinking of the authority of the church coming through the priest, she felt like she had two completely contradictory ORDERS from her church, and no way to resolve them. For her, these were not SUGGESTIONS or IDEAS; they were ORDERS.

 

This just wouldn't happen in a church with consistent teaching and with people who are encouraged to take responsibility for their faith.

 

 

 

You know, it is really hard to talk about these kinds of things. OTOH, I respect a lot about the Catholic church and I respect you, specifically, a great deal. OTOH, if I don't raise these followup questions I feel like I'm not being true to the questions either. And I feel like I understand your positionl, but that you don't understand mine, so I'm explaining. I don't think that we need to agree but I would like to feel like we have heard each other thoroughly. Althoug we don't have to.

 

So here is something I really respect about the Catholic church. I respect the nuanced stands that the Catholic bishops take on many social issues. I don't always agree with everything they say, but I like the depth and breadth of the side issues that they consider in coming to conclusions.

 

PS And I CERTAINLY am not one who would say that Catholics are not Christians, lest there be any doubt.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Carol in Cal.
wanted the PS

[LizzyBee]

On the topic of Mary, why is it that evangelicals hold her in such low esteem exactly? Behold the handmaiden of the Lord.

 

She CHOSE to be God's human vessel despite all the difficulty it presented in her very real life. My goodness!

 

I think it ties into the all too common low view of women which is so often advanced by some members of certain sects.

 

I felt shocked when I read this question. I have never known an evangelical who holds Mary in low esteem. I have heard many lay people and pastors speak of Mary with great respect. It's sort of funny that some Protestants think that Catholics worship Mary but apparently that's not accurate; and apparently some Catholics think that Protestants have a low view of Mary, but ime that's not accurate either. Maybe our perspectives aren't as far apart as they seem.

[Nestof3]

Ladies, I am going to quietly retreat from this discussion. I have definitely learned much about the Catholic faith, and I think at this point it's best to just agree to disagree. I hope there are no ill feelings as I truly feel no ill regard for any of you.

[Spy Car]

I

The shortest answer is no.

 

 

I thought "Yes" was a much easier short answer :D

 

The long answer would have been about the same.

 

Bill

[Murphy101]

It also comes back to what is someone risking? I don't think that failing to pray to the saints risks anything, although I don't see any particular reason to do so. But I also think that praying to the saints does have some risks.

 

I disagree. Maybe on both points. Are we risking anything by never asking anyone to pray for us? If so, what? If not, how is it any different whether that freind is across the stree or in heaven?

 

By your logic none of us should ever ask our fellow christians to pray for us.

 

I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood, and when my next door neighbor came over and we talked about our respective schools, she talked a lot about stories about Mary's life after the Ascension, but was not familiar with the sort of basic Bible stories that a lot of kids learn in church.

 

hmmm. maybe that's what she found interesting and worth discussing.. I don't know.

 

I live in the protestant belt.

 

and on more than one lenten/easter season my littler kids have been known to horrify the neighbors by reenacting the crucifixion. between stations, and stories, and everyting else, they do what little kids do - they play what they learn. And I've had MANY christians who didn't know what Good Friday is or who thought it was weird that my kids knew so much about the crucifixion.

 

Now, at the time the Latin mass was still required, so she was not hearing the Bible in church except in Latin, which she did not understand, and she wasn't hearing much about it at her Catholic school either.

 

hmmm. someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the readings and the homily always in the native language? I have only been to a few TLMs

 

Well, you're ascribing to him the power to hear you and the power to move those keys into your pocket. You were lighthearted about it, and I don't mean to overstate what you said, but I don't see how there is a basis to ascribe either of those capabilities to him.

 

hearing is a "power":001_huh:

and no I didn't mean literally put the keys in my pocket, I was thinking more along the lines remembering they were there.. .

 

But, see, the prayer doesn't say that. Maybe that's how you interpret it, which is really interesting, but it says something else.

 

*sigh* It was my obviously poor attempt to describe a typical situation. (which is funny because it's totally not typical for me, I rarely pray to any saint) MOST prayers for most folks are not long thought out carefully planned things. For the average christian mom, they are quick, heart-felt pleas through out the day. "Lord, please help this kid take a nap... Jesus, please help pick a math program for this kid.. Mother Mary, pray for me to be the mother he needs today... St Joseph help my husband find a decent job... God, I'd love a maid for all this laundry..."

 

I'll wager there's not much difference between my prayers and the typical christian mom on this board. The only difference is that instead of picking up the phone and saying, "Hey friend could you pray that I be the mother my boy needs today?" many Catholic might have asked the Mother of my Savior to help out.

 

There is no scriptural reason to believe that Jesus listens more or at all for what my friend might ask of him on my behalf than his own mother, saints, and angels standing next to him in heaven.

 

Hey, don't give me a hard time for complimenting your church!!

:001_smile: Seriously, as an outsider, the people I know who have gone through RCIA seem to really know their church's teachings. Frankly, IME, a lot better than most cradle Catholics. It's really a credit to the Catholic church to have been able to do such a good job with adult information materials.

 

glad to hear it. I actually am gong out of my way to NOT give anyone a hard time. My satrical humor is often not appreciated via internet.:)

 

 

Well, but more than in most faiths the Catholic church teaches people to accept their teaching, not to delve into it so much, but more to just accept it as stated.

 

no. just no. that is myth. sadly a myth perpetuated by those who want an excuse for their own lack of will to learn the basics of their faith. drives me insane. that. is. not. true.

 

So if things are stated that contradict what was said before, a lot of parishioners, especially those who went to Catholic schools, really don't know what to do.

 

oh come now. really? a grown adult couldn't think to ask a question of another adult? open a book? type in an internet search? they coudln't think of anything to do?:glare:

 

she and her fiance went to the pre-Cana classes, their priest told them to start having s*x regularly and talking about money and children, all immediately and before marriage, because those are the three things that married couples fight about the most. She was pretty shocked at that, and because she was accustomed to thinking of the authority of the church coming through the priest, she felt like she had two completely contradictory ORDERS from her church, and no way to resolve them. For her, these were not SUGGESTIONS or IDEAS; they were ORDERS.

 

well talking money and kids is smart.

I don't even know how one has a relationship without doing that.

as for the sex

yikes.

that was not simple suggestion or idea

a priest telling a catholic to have premarital sex is committing a mortal sin.

a grown adult who can't think to get another opinion needs to rethink a lot of things.

 

now that's pretty harsh I suppose, but really she's grown enough to consider marriage, but can't think enough to contemplate that maybe this guy is off his rocker and she needs another opinion?

 

I just can't bring myself to let her off the hook on this. At the very least, at that point, she knew beyond doubt that someone somewhere was in error and that she needed find out if it was him or her.

 

This just wouldn't happen in a church with consistent teaching and with people who are encouraged to take responsibility for their faith.

 

#1 there is consistant teaching and they are encouraged to take responsibility for their faith

 

#2 yes, it would and does in every denomination, because

 

#3 free will stinks. no matter how consistant the church is there are those that have the hubris to think they can change it to suit their own opinions and there will be those that flat out don't want the growing pains that comes with growing faith or knowledge of faith.

 

 

You know, it is really hard to talk about these kinds of things. OTOH, I respect a lot about the Catholic church and I respect you, specifically, a great deal.

 

thank you. I don't find it hard to talk about it on an emotional level. I do find it difficult to find the right words and I do want to be careful not to mess up. I'm not a theologian by any stretch.

 

OTOH, if I don't raise these followup questions I feel like I'm not being true to the questions either. And I feel like I understand your positionl, but that you don't understand mine, so I'm explaining. I don't think that we need to agree but I would like to feel like we have heard each other thoroughly. Althoug we don't have to.

 

agreed! I understand where you are. I don't knwo that we'll ever agree and that's okay by me.

 

The prayer thing is a minor difference to me. (tho not you as I can understand given your perspective of it) To me, prayer is conversation. To me those in heaven are not dead. They are my extended family in heaven. And just like for me, anything they can do is purely by the grace and power of God.

 

So here is something I really respect about the Catholic church. I respect the nuanced stands that the Catholic bishops take on many social issues. I don't always agree with everything they say, but I like the depth and breadth of the side issues that they consider in coming to conclusions.

 

I agreee. The Church has been around a very long time and time as taught many lessons and led to thoughtful caution in social issues.

 

PS And I CERTAINLY am not one who would say that Catholics are not Christians, lest there be any doubt.

 

 

well that's a start!:D

[Carol in Cal.]

 

I disagree. Maybe on both points. Are we risking anything by never asking anyone to pray for us? If so, what? If not, how is it any different whether that freind is across the stree or in heaven?

 

The difference, simply put, is that we are sure that the friend across the street hears us, but we have no reason to think that the friend in heaven does.

 

By your logic none of us should ever ask our fellow christians to pray for us.

 

Not so, see above. It's more like, I wouldn't sit here and think--'Karen, please pray for me' because Karen is 150 miles away, and she can't read my mind.

 

 

hmmm. someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the readings and the homily always in the native language? I have only been to a few TLMs

 

Not in those days in her church. Irish Catholic, in CA, during the 60's. I'm really, really old, I guess.

 

 

no. just no. that is myth. sadly a myth perpetuated by those who want an excuse for their own lack of will to learn the basics of their faith. drives me insane. that. is. not. true.

 

No, it is the actual experience of many, many Catholics. You know, you didn't go to Catholic schools, and you're an adult convert. I can see that it would be tempting to equate the experience of many who have been Catholics for decades against your own experience, but they just don't match up...in fact those experiences are so different as to be almost unrecognizable.

 

oh come now. really? a grown adult couldn't think to ask a question of another adult? open a book? type in an internet search? they coudln't think of anything to do?:glare:

 

well talking money and kids is smart.

I don't even know how one has a relationship without doing that.

as for the sex

yikes.

that was not simple suggestion or idea

a priest telling a catholic to have premarital sex is committing a mortal sin.

a grown adult who can't think to get another opinion needs to rethink a lot of things.

 

now that's pretty harsh I suppose, but really she's grown enough to consider marriage, but can't think enough to contemplate that maybe this guy is off his rocker and she needs another opinion?

 

I just can't bring myself to let her off the hook on this. At the very least, at that point, she knew beyond doubt that someone somewhere was in error and that she needed find out if it was him or her.

 

The point is that this fairly young, sincere, pious, fairly innocent adult of maybe 24 or so had a significant authority problem at this point. How does she evaluate who to believe? How does she decide? She had no real basis for doing so. Again, this was the early 80's -- no internet. She could ask around, but on what basis does she decide who to believe? She didn't have any obvious path to the truth at this point. And she was put in that position by the church that she loved and trusted.

 

 

#1 there is consistant teaching and they are encouraged to take responsibility for their faith

 

The way that many Catholics have been taught has shifted a great deal during the last 40-50 years--that's clear. I am happy for you that you had a better/superior experience, but that was not so for many of the people that I grew up with. They are not abdicating their responsibilities out of laziness, they are doing what they were told to do from a very early age, and I have always felt kind of sorry for the ones who were caught up in changes without tools to deal with it.

 

 

To me those in heaven are not dead. They are my extended family in heaven.

 

Yes, I confess my faith each week and that includes the communion of saints.

 

 

well that's a start

 

Ouch!

 

Time to go!

Edited April 28, 2009 by Carol in Cal.

[Peek a Boo]

I thought "Yes" was a much easier short answer :D

 

The long answer would have been about the same.

 

Bill

 

That's kinda what my impression is too.....:001_huh:

 

{{unless I'm also misunderstanding Bill too!}}

 

 

but let me try one more time :)

 

before i launch into trying to understand the whole thing, i'll focus on one part at a time to give my poor brain a rest, lol....

thank you for being so patient Eliana!

 

Conversions:

 

The conditions for a kosher conversion are very specific - change of status is a big deal... and the commitment involved is enormous. .....

- we have a process to be followed and certain things which must be committed to and certain procedures which must be performed (and witnessed by kosher witnesses).

.....

The issue of conversions has nothing to do with questioning the Jewishness of those supervising the conversion - the best example of this is the (relatively recent) headache with the Israeli Beis Din not accepting many USnA *Orthodox* conversions - signing off on them had too many ramifications & if they didn't know the supervising Rabbi or Beis Din, they weren't comfortable accepting it... so folks were going through the process *again* (and it wasn't a pro forma thing - it involved at least a year and was emotionally painful for some of the people).

 

No one was questioning the Jewishness of the Rabbis, the Beis Dins, or the communities involved - but status change is really non-trivial and being certain that the process hs been correctly followed is important for everyone involved.

 

A. was the Jewishness of the [first time around] new converts called in to question? which is why they had to go thru the process again?

 

B. I do understand that visitors are always welcome [just as visitors are always welcome at Christian churches -regardless denomination], but what i DON't know is if there are any portions of Jewish services that are not open to non-Jews [like the Communion issue in many Christian churches]?

[Peek a Boo]

Yes. That was my point - that conversions coming from Orthodox Batei Din led by (surprisingly!) Orthodox Rabbis in Orthodox communities were not being accepted.

 

I was trying to illustrate the issue of conversion is enormous and complex and that not accepting non-Orthodox conversions is not saying that those movements aren't Jewish. (The issues involved were not ones of halacha or of hashkafa - it was procedural... at least that's the most concise explanation I can give.

 

 

In the Orthodox world one has to be halachically Jewish, male, and 13 or over to count for a minyan, have an aliyah, read Torah, or lead the services. There are certain prayers we only say communally (ie with a minyan).

 

 

 

ok, so those converts had gone through the process to become a Jew, but even after that, since there was some question, they had to re-do it. So even though they had done everything already [and could probably meet the criteria for being a Jew], they had to re-do it again, just in case? can you share what the converts themselves had to change to make the second time around acceptable? [i know, i'm asking for LOTS of words this time, lol!]

 

That's probably closest to what i really meant by "non Orthodox;" someone who had been thru the process to be a jew but still wasn't considered one. sorry! it sounds horrible to call it a botched conversion, but is that basically what it was?

 

I think i do understand better your initial reply to my question about sects in disagreement tho. I guess the "not a Jew after the first conversion attempt due to technical discrepancies" would probably be the closest to what i was wondering at first [if I'm even understanding the process correctly yet], but it's not a 'sect' per se.

 

and yeah, I'm probably the one reading Bill wrong.....

[asta]

How does one reconcile this (the bolded, Carol part, not the Martha part):

 

Originally Posted by Martha

 

I disagree. Maybe on both points. Are we risking anything by never asking anyone to pray for us? If so, what? If not, how is it any different whether that freind is across the stree or in heaven?

The difference, simply put, is that we are sure that the friend across the street hears us, but we have no reason to think that the friend in heaven does.

 

By your logic none of us should ever ask our fellow christians to pray for us.

Not so, see above. It's more like, I wouldn't sit here and think--'Karen, please pray for me' because Karen is 150 miles away, and she can't read my mind.

 

With this:

 

To me those in heaven are not dead. They are my extended family in heaven.

 

Yes, I confess my faith each week and that includes the communion of saints.

 

I mean, it seems like this all goes back to a logic proof (Kreeft is v. good with this stuff, I'm not).

 

 

asta

[Peek a Boo]

How does one reconcile this (the bolded, Carol part, not the Martha part):

 

With this:

 

I mean, it seems like this all goes back to a logic proof (Kreeft is v. good with this stuff, I'm not).

 

 

i have no idea :)

 

but mommaduck was interested, and this sounds a lot easier than Jewish practices [lol!], so i'll bite :D

 

first read this wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints

 

8And when he [Christ] had taken it [the scroll], the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

who are the elders?

who are the saints?

I believe it was Dawn who mentioned the difference in terminology of saint [living- Body of Christ on earth] vs Saint [dead- Body of Christ in Heaven]. i tend to read it as more saint, lower case s.

 

Michele B said:

I don't know of any place in Scripture where the dead in Christ are relieved of their christian duties of intercession and charity.

 

so we have to examine what happens in death to Believers:

there's the story of Lazarus:

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

 

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

 

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

 

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

 

I'm not seeing much in the way of Lazarus offering an option to exercise christian charity/ duty? he seems to send it all back to the living to handle.

 

Marriage:

30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

 

angels. messengers?

this can mean that either the saints are LIKE/similar to angels, or are the exact same thing as angels. Either way, the Christian marriage to another person is no longer applicable, [unless you're LDS ;) ] so SOMEthing fairly drastic changes in our relationship w/ other Christians when we die.

 

another to explore: Christ saying "27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" --where, if at all- does THAT fit in??

 

you've got guys like this [obviously not a Catholic] claiming that the Bible supports a sleeping state till the last Resurrection [so no praying or interceding by any dead Christians].

 

anyway, I tend to side w/ "nobody but Christ" as far as prayers go, but it's a debatable issue as far as i'm concerned.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

While this thread has been mostly respectful, this seems like a good time to take the discussions here to PMs.

 

SWB