LUV2EDU Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) There are people who argue whether or not God really gave man free will. Since there are so many arguments concerning this, I will just focus on one. If God knows your future, then how is it possible for man to have free will? Edited April 12, 2009 by LUV2EDU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 He knew what you were going to do every day of your life even before you were born...He didn't prescribe it all, He just knew it. He works in our lives circumstantially, but He still gives us the power to choose to accept Him or reject Him. It is a balance. Free will is one of His greatest gifts to us, but I believe it has also caused Him great pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momee Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Great question, one many have reckoned with. I've not got time to give my personal thoughts, but maybe some Romans 8 teachings by your favorite pastor. We're going through Romans now and it's loaded with thought provoking material. We're Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith wrote a great piece on Calvinism vs. Arminianism that helped me reconcile some things. Galatians might be a good book to study too. As you said, loaded topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Basically, I believe that God has the power to pre-ordain and foreknow events, but he does not always use it. Ecc. 9:11 "Time and unforeseen occurance (or chance in some translations) befall them all." A good example of this is that I have the ability to watch the weather channel at any time and then I would always know what the weather report was. But I choose not to tune in to the weather channel all of the time, I make selective use of that ability. God can also make selective, discretionary use of the abilty to foreknow events. Can You Control Your Destiny? Here is an article that discusses more Biblical viewpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm not on the fence: I believe that people have free will (within circumstantial constraints) but that it was not given by a god. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Definitely free will. I look at it this way: I know my children. I can predict how they will behave/choose in various scenarios. Does this mean I'm making them do it? No. It just means I know them very well and how they think. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Virginia Dawn Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 There are people who argue whether or not God really gave man free will. Since there are so many arguments concerning this, I will just focus on one. If God knows your future, than how is it possible for man to have free will? This is the argument I have frequently heard: Since God created space and time, he is outside of both. Therefore, his knowledge encompasses all that ever was or ever will be. Just because he has that knowledge does not necessarily mean that he manipulates you against your will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen_Zarga Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Very simplistic example: I know my child. If I put chocolate in front of him, he will eat it. He has the free will to eat it or not, but I know what he will do. I imagine the same thing with God but on a much larger/deeper scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 The people who do not believe have argued, "Since we are set to do what we are going to do in the future, then man does not have free will." Read this article...http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/freewill.htm "....There can be no doubt that in God’s mind the future of the created realm is fixed, not in flux. By "fixed," I do not mean predetermined, but rather foreknown, and thus firmly established. Because God’s foreknowledge is perfect, He knows all events that will ever transpire, and nothing which He has foreknown could ever happen in any other way than that manner in which He foreknew it. The fact that the future is fixed in the mind of God, however, has nothing to do with free will. The real question is not "Is the future fixed?," but rather "Who fixes the future?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'm not on the fence: I believe that people have free will (within circumstantial constraints) but that it was not given by a god. Laura Sorry, I realized I forgot "other" after I hit submit. I wish there was a way to edit the poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 This is the argument I have frequently heard: Since God created space and time, he is outside of both. Therefore, his knowledge encompasses all that ever was or ever will be. Just because he has that knowledge does not necessarily mean that he manipulates you against your will. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Definitely free will. I look at it this way: I know my children. I can predict how they will behave/choose in various scenarios. Does this mean I'm making them do it? No. It just means I know them very well and how they think. :) :iagree:Very good example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrina Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Besides agreeing with what's already been posted, I was always taught that we have free will so WE can grow and learn through our choices. God will always know what our choices will be, but we need to go through the process of making those choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Mama Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 He knew what you were going to do every day of your life even before you were born...He didn't prescribe it all, He just knew it. He works in our lives circumstantially, but He still gives us the power to choose to accept Him or reject Him. It is a balance. Free will is one of His greatest gifts to us, but I believe it has also caused Him great pain. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 This is the argument I have frequently heard: Since God created space and time, he is outside of both. Therefore, his knowledge encompasses all that ever was or ever will be. Just because he has that knowledge does not necessarily mean that he manipulates you against your will. Good point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMom Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 How about: I believe that God ordains all things that come to pass including the free choices of men. I didn't see that as a choice on your poll.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 God has foreknowledge of what man will do in the future. Just because God knows what man will do (by choice) in the future, does not mean man does not have free will. If God were to stop man from doing what man wants to do (good or bad), then man would not have free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I didn't read the other posts because I just want to say what I believe and that is all. I do think God gave us free will. Just because he KNOWS the choices we will make does not mean that he predestined us to make those choices. He lets us screw up and fail - we are humans. I am sure that, in God's perfect will for me, I was not meant to marry my ex husband, fight with him like animals, and get divorced at 21 years old. However, God let me make those choices and He knew I would make those choices. He was also there for me each step of the way - never leaving or forsaking me. I just didn't bother, at that time in my life, to pray and ask for His will to be done. In selfishness and arrogance, I felt I knew what was best and I did what *I* wanted to do. Then, it ended badly...as it most often does when I try to take over the drivers seat. My 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 If you want some of the "other side" of the free will "argument," read some Nietzsche. In some books, he will vehemently deny free will could exist (while he contridicts himself to a degree in other texts...but oh well :rolleyes:). I had to read a lot (more than I ever wanted or cared to read) of Nietzsche in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsetmom Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 "I believe that God ordains all things that come to pass including the free choices of men." :iagree: Some may see the above statement as an impossibility. They fail to think about the fact that God is not bound by our three dimensional (plus dimension of time) world. Scientists/mathematicians have proven that at least six dimensions do exist. I believe the whole Calvinism/Armenian debate would be silenced if we could see things from God's dimensionality. In fact, I think a lot of other denominational debate could be as well. Us humans, always trying to figure out a ultra-dimensional God with our puny three dimensional brains. (sigh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy in Ky Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 There are people who argue whether or not God really gave man free will. Since there are so many arguments concerning this, I will just focus on one. If God knows your future, then how is it possible for man to have free will? It depends on what you mean by "free will." How do you define it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danybug Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 He knew what you were going to do every day of your life even before you were born...He didn't prescribe it all, He just knew it. He works in our lives circumstantially, but He still gives us the power to choose to accept Him or reject Him. It is a balance. Free will is one of His greatest gifts to us, but I believe it has also caused Him great pain. I think this post really sums up how I feel as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetbaby Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Of course, God gave us free will. He didn't want robots worshiping Him. He gave us the ability to choose to love Him. How awesome it that? Is it more meaning when someone chooses to love you or when they are programmed to love you? Hmm. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you.. God knows our future and He has a planned for us. We are the ones who stray with our personal agendas. Sometimes it has taken a few lessons from the school of hard knocks to learn that I should get back to His plan through following His word. Jeremiah 29:11: For I know the thoughts and plans that I have for you, says the Lord, thoughts and plans for welfare and peace and not for evil, to give you hope in your final outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 If man did not have free will, wouldn't we all be Christians? If you believe in God and believe that he is a loving God, then why would he let someone chose not to follow him and perish without everlasting life in Heaven? My answer is that he lets US choose. He wants us to love him and worship him. He never gives up, even when someone gives up on Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 It depends on what you mean by "free will." How do you define it? God does not assert his power over individual will and choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 If man did not have free will, wouldn't we all be Christians? :iagree:2 Pet. 2: 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. Rev 22:17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come " And let the one who hears say, "Come " And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Of course, God gave us free will. He didn't want robots worshiping Him. He gave us the ability to choose to love Him. How awesome it that? Is it more meaning when someone chooses to love you or when they are programmed to love you? Hmm. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you.. Jeremiah 29:11: For I know the thoughts and plans that I have for you, says the Lord, thoughts and plans for welfare and peace and not for evil, to give you hope in your final outcome. Good scriptures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) The poll doesn't have the answer I would give: Man has free will, but that will can only move within God's Foreordained Will. God doesn't just "know the future"...He foreordained. This means it's already been set and even accomplished. Remember, He exists throughout time...past, present, future...all at once. HE created it! Edited April 14, 2009 by mommaduck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 If man did not have free will, wouldn't we all be Christians? If you believe in God and believe that he is a loving God, then why would he let someone chose not to follow him and perish without everlasting life in Heaven? My answer is that he lets US choose. He wants us to love him and worship him. He never gives up, even when someone gives up on Him. No. Man cannot save himself. Our nature is bent away from God, never towards it. Only God can change that nature to bend towards Him. God elected those that are His before the foundations of the earth. Christ came to save those that would come to him. Those that come to him are defined as, "all that the Father gives me, I will save". So either 1) everyone will be saved if God gave him all 2) not all were given to him 3) Christ failed. (I believe #2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagira Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 If man did not have free will, wouldn't we all be Christians? Ah, but Jewish people would say, If man did not have free will, wouldn't we all be Jewish? Reading the Torah, or Old Testament. I believe God has given us free will, and I am Catholic :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I define free will as the ability to make individual choices--whether those choices are good or evil. I don't see why God would foreordain (ie. prescribe) the actions of, say, Hitler. I can understand how evil things like the Holocaust happen due to the free will of mortal men. Some men will choose evil while others will choose good. I believe God judges us based on our choices and the knowledge/understanding we had at the time.It wouldn't be just for someone to be condemned for sinning in ignorance. It's much more severe for someone to knowingly choose not to follow God's laws. I believe God is just and fair. :) I also don't believe He condemns all the billions of souls who died never knowing Christ.... Mercy comes through Christ's sacrifice. I believe Christ came and died for ALL of us and made it possible for us to return to God, if we choose to live according to His teachings. The idea that God only selected a few of His children to return to Him doesn't sit well with me at all. :mellow: I can't imagine choosing to keep only some of my children.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 If man did not have free will, wouldn't we all be Christians? No. It all goes back to Adam and Eve, and the reason Christ had to die. When man disobeyed God by eating the fruit of Knowledge of good and evil, he separated himself from God. Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Before the fall of Adam, there was no sin or death. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,†Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. With the fall of man, provisions for a Savior was made. In other words, if it were not for the fall of man, Christ would not have had to die for our sins. Therefore, the term "Christian" we use today, probably would not have been used. We must remember that Jesus and his 12 disciples were Jews. To be a "Christian" means to be Christ like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Speaking generally, I believe we all have free will. Here is what annoys me, though: It seems incongruent for someone to believe that God always does or allows the correct things to happen, yet they petition God for what is clearly their own will. If one truly believes that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose, why ask him to alleviate the cancer? Help dh find a job? Heal their sick child? This has been a huge sticking point for me for several years, with no end in sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 This has been a huge sticking point for me for several years, with no end in sight. I see prayer more as a vehicle to help US understand and communicate w/ God. Kinda like testing: Abraham wasn't being tested for God's benefit, but so Abraham himself could realize a few things. We can learn a lot thru prayer. It is undeniably an important part of the Christian faith. God certainly listens to prayer, and always answers prayer. Sometimes He says no :) I think that is compatible w/ either versions of will..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMamaBird Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I'm in the Free Will camp, but that God knows all that will happen. When He spoke the world into being, everything "happened," God knew it all immediately because He's outside of the constraints of time. We're just slogging our way through time, making our choices as we go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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