CC: Confused... difference between Calvinist and Reformed?

[Dianne-TX]

Here's a little background before I delve into my question. My dh and I were saved as youngsters. I when I was a little girl and my dh when he was a teenager. We have been members of Bible churches for our adult life and I would say that that is the church we have really been grounded in and it has discipled us the most. We respect John MacArthur highly and would attend his church if we lived in California. :) We have been in between churches for almost 2 years. Our present church is another Bible church in our area, but we are finding the same disappointing issue to be true of this church as other Bible churches we have attended. Knowledge without a lot of heart. And, all the Bible churches we've attended have had pastor/teachers from DTS (Dallas Theo. Seminary). We have really liked the teaching of those graduates, but have found, of the churches we have attended, that they lack warmth. (we've attended several, 2 we were members) Our present church is also very limited on children and we want to attend somewhere where at least more children exist. We aren't looking for more programs for our children because we probably wouldn't participate in those anyway. I say all that because a friend of mine who has a Bible/Baptist background has started attending a PCA church. She loves it and her parents love it too. They also have the same background and they say it reminds them of their churches when they were very young. So, we are intrigued. I've done research and readings online and read what John MacArthur has to say regarding infant baptism and the Bible and much more. I do know this PCA church does not believe that the infant baptism saves the baby, it's just a convenant. I'm not completely kosher with that biblically, though, but I don't know if it's a point of division. I also have trouble with sprinkling vs. immersion. But, again, I don't know if it's worth dividing over. I've also read the PCA website. I'm still searching and all my searching just brings up more questions and confusion. Has anyone been in my shoes? Has anyone gone into the Reformed churches from a Bible/Baptist background? Any help and guidance is appreciated. Sorry this turned out long. Trust me, it could have been so much longer! :) To make it easier, one main question I have is what is the difference between Calvinism and Reformed Theology? I thought they were the same. Thanks!

[AuntieM]

we are dealing with very similar issues. We are finding it difficult to find a good combination of deep Biblical truth, and reverance in worship, and an abundance of grace exhibited through the congregation. We have been wondering what part of this we have to compromise to finally find a church home. I will watch the replies with interest...

[FlockOfSillies]

My Reformed friends generally look at the end times differently than I would (eschatology), and they practice infant baptism, whereas I hold to believer baptism. Not everyone holds to all five of the "solas" of the Reformation, so you'll have three-point, four-point, or even four-and-a-half point Calvinists. :)

[Dianne-TX]

Thank you for responding. What are the differences, if you don't mind explaining? I, too, am Calvinist, but I'm trying to understand the reformed point of view in comparison to that. I know end times opinions are varied and I don't consider that a point of contention, but I am interested in what most reformed people believe. Or, are they as varied as non-reformed? :) I appreciate your response.

 

My Reformed friends generally look at the end times differently than I would (eschatology), and they practice infant baptism, whereas I hold to believer baptism. Not everyone holds to all five of the "solas" of the Reformation, so you'll have three-point, four-point, or even four-and-a-half point Calvinists. :)

[Dianne-TX]

I'm really seeing God deepen my faith and understanding during this time. I have drawn closer to Him during this time and I am thankful in many ways for that. It's not easy, though. I'm also finding that the present church culture is sad, period. We aren't alone, believe me. I know many, many people looking for the same thing.

 

we are dealing with very similar issues. We are finding it difficult to find a good combination of deep Biblical truth, and reverance in worship, and an abundance of grace exhibited through the congregation. We have been wondering what part of this we have to compromise to finally find a church home. I will watch the replies with interest...

[mommaduck]

so you'll have three-point, four-point, or even four-and-a-half point Calvinists. :)

We call those "Arminians" ;)

[CAMom]

Typically, when someone says "Calvinist" they mean with regards to salvation. In other words--TULIP.

 

When we say "Reformed" it usually encompasses a "Calvinistic" view of soteriology as well as a holding to Covenant Theology. Covenant Theology basically adheres to the idea that there is one covenant theme running throughout Scripture--the covenant of redemption consumated in Christ.

 

Those who are "Reformed" will typically hold to infant baptism (although it does not have the same meaning as Catholic or Lutheran baptism) and will hold to an amillenial or post-millenial view of the end times.

 

HTH,

[mommaduck]

Or a Historic Pre-Mil (thinking Puritans here) view...which is DIFFERENT from Dispensational Pre-Mil.

[Cathy in SoCal]

Usually Reformed and Calvinism are used interchangeably. There are some important distinctions to Calvinism/Reformed theology that should be considered, however. The main one is the way free will is defined. Here is the spectrum:

 

Determinist (everything has been determined prior to including your desires and/or decisions) --Some Reformed

 

Compatiblist (try to hold to some form of freedom, but a truncated view--God places the desire in you so that you are compelled to "choose")--Some Reformed

 

Libertarian Free Will (one has genuine free will while God's sovereignty is not thwarted)

 

Molinism (Middle Knowlege--philosophical view that has had a resurgence that brings together both areas of Scripture of God's sovereignty and genuine free will/responisblity. Many Liberatrian Free Will also hold to Middle Knowlege.)

 

Arminianism (holds to a robust view of freedom at the expense--some say--to God's sovereignty)--Catholicism

 

It sounds a little picky to look at these and wrestle with them, however, when one holds to a view the practical effects are genuine. For instance, the issue of prayer, missions, purpose, sanctification...which get played out in sermons and Bible Studies within a church body. This can be difficult at times.

 

My husband and I hold to Libertarian Free Will/Molinists (but not dogmatically) and finally found a wonderful church in our area, after searching for several years, that was not anti-intellectual and took the Scriptures seriously. They happen to be Reformed. We are fine with this as long as there is charity within the body. My husband had lunch with the pastor before we decided on the church to ask him about charity. The pastor adimently said yes, of course charity. Our kids get a heavy dose of Reformed theology, but we are trying to respectfully/graciously give them the other side here at home so they can grapple with the issues at hand for themselves.

 

A great book to read on the subject is: Why I am Not a Calvinist:

http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Calvinist/dp/0830832491/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235350624&sr=8-1

 

Also Why I am Not an Arminian:

http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Arminian/dp/0830832483/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235350624&sr=8-2

 

I know the first is very fair on all sides and does some scholarly work with passages of Scripture. The 2nd is within the same series, looks good, but I haven't read it yet.

 

Blessings to you as you grapple with this....

[Dianne-TX]

Typically, when someone says "Calvinist" they mean with regards to salvation. In other words--TULIP.

 

When we say "Reformed" it usually encompasses a "Calvinistic" view of soteriology as well as a holding to Covenant Theology. Covenant Theology basically adheres to the idea that there is one covenant theme running throughout Scripture--the covenant of redemption consumated in Christ.

 

Those who are "Reformed" will typically hold to infant baptism (although it does not have the same meaning as Catholic or Lutheran baptism) and will hold to an amillenial or post-millenial view of the end times.

 

HTH,

 

Thank you for the short overview. That helped to have a summary.

[Dianne-TX]

Usually Reformed and Calvinism are used interchangeably. There are some important distinctions to Calvinism/Reformed theology that should be considered, however. The main one is the way free will is defined. Here is the spectrum:

 

Determinist (everything has been determined prior to including your desires and/or decisions) --Some Reformed

 

Compatiblist (try to hold to some form of freedom, but a truncated view--God places the desire in you so that you are compelled to "choose")--Some Reformed

 

Libertarian Free Will (one has genuine free will while God's sovereignty is not thwarted)

 

Molinism (Middle Knowlege--philosophical view that has had a resurgence that brings together both areas of Scripture of God's sovereignty and genuine free will/responisblity. Many Liberatrian Free Will also hold to Middle Knowlege.)

 

Arminianism (holds to a robust view of freedom at the expense--some say--to God's sovereignty)--Catholicism

 

It sounds a little picky to look at these and wrestle with them, however, when one holds to a view the practical effects are genuine. For instance, the issue of prayer, missions, purpose, sanctification...which get played out in sermons and Bible Studies within a church body. This can be difficult at times.

 

My husband and I hold to Libertarian Free Will/Molinists (but not dogmatically) and finally found a wonderful church in our area, after searching for several years, that was not anti-intellectual and took the Scriptures seriously. They happen to be Reformed. We are fine with this as long as there is charity within the body. My husband had lunch with the pastor before we decided on the church to ask him about charity. The pastor adimently said yes, of course charity. Our kids get a heavy dose of Reformed theology, but we are trying to respectfully/graciously give them the other side here at home so they can grapple with the issues at hand for themselves.

 

A great book to read on the subject is: Why I am Not a Calvinist:

http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Calvinist/dp/0830832491/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235350624&sr=8-1

 

Also Why I am Not an Arminian:

http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Arminian/dp/0830832483/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235350624&sr=8-2

 

I know the first is very fair on all sides and does some scholarly work with passages of Scripture. The 2nd is within the same series, looks good, but I haven't read it yet.

 

Blessings to you as you grapple with this....

 

Wow! Thank you. I hadn't heard some of this. You've given me some things to look up. I appreciate all the information you shared.

[angela in ohio]

Typically, when someone says "Calvinist" they mean with regards to salvation. In other words--TULIP.

 

When we say "Reformed" it usually encompasses a "Calvinistic" view of soteriology as well as a holding to Covenant Theology. Covenant Theology basically adheres to the idea that there is one covenant theme running throughout Scripture--the covenant of redemption consumated in Christ.

 

Those who are "Reformed" will typically hold to infant baptism (although it does not have the same meaning as Catholic or Lutheran baptism) and will hold to an amillenial or post-millenial view of the end times.

 

HTH,

 

:iagree:

[SonshineLearner]

Funny, We are attending a PCA church here, too! I love it...my husband not so much right now... There are tons of homeschoolers...and the only big things are the baptism (but many in the church don't do paedo baptism) and then the end times thing...which also affects the view of Israel, right?...

The church is warm and genuinely friendly, and I'm praying we get to stay!

They also will do baptism for our 5 yr old with the old "Baptist" tub...

I love the children in the service....the part that the church family is together. I also love the fact that Reformed churches tend to value education...Christian education! It's really important to them for their children to have a great Christian worldview and it's evident. I don't think you'll meet a pastor with his kids in public school.

Carrie:-)

[Karenciavo]

We call those "Arminians" ;)

:lol:

[Karenciavo]

and then the end times thing...which also affects the view of Israel, right?...

 

:confused:

 

I don't think you'll meet a pastor with his kids in public school.

Carrie:-)

This really does vary. In my neck of the woods homeschooling is not big in the PCA and many pastors have their children in public school.

[SonshineLearner]

PCA pastors have their kids in public school????? I'm disappointed! Our PCA pastor talked about unequally yoked and how it's not just referring to marriage. We shouldn't put ourselves in situations where we are intimately integrated with those who don't believe as we do. (Don't shoot me, I have friends who aren't Christians, but my children wouldn't be trained by them.)

Carrie:-)

[Karenciavo]

PCA pastors have their kids in public school????? I'm disappointed! Our PCA pastor talked about unequally yoked and how it's not just referring to marriage. We shouldn't put ourselves in situations where we are intimately integrated with those who don't believe as we do. (Don't shoot me, I have friends who aren't Christians, but my children wouldn't be trained by them.)

Carrie:-)

 

I think they have a salt and light philosophy.

[FlockOfSillies]

LOL!

[Ellie]

Usually Reformed and Calvinism are used interchangeably.

Huh.:001_huh: Mr. Ellie grew up in the Southern Baptist church, which is closer to Calvinism than not, and had never heard the term "reformed" until after we had been married close to 25 years.

[Ellie]

Typically, when someone says "Calvinist" they mean with regards to salvation. In other words--TULIP.

 

When we say "Reformed" it usually encompasses a "Calvinistic" view of soteriology as well as a holding to Covenant Theology. Covenant Theology basically adheres to the idea that there is one covenant theme running throughout Scripture--the covenant of redemption consumated in Christ.

 

Those who are "Reformed" will typically hold to infant baptism (although it does not have the same meaning as Catholic or Lutheran baptism) and will hold to an amillenial or post-millenial view of the end times.

 

HTH,

Thank you! That clarifies the differences between the two so well!

[Dianne-TX]

PCA pastors have their kids in public school????? I'm disappointed! Our PCA pastor talked about unequally yoked and how it's not just referring to marriage. We shouldn't put ourselves in situations where we are intimately integrated with those who don't believe as we do. (Don't shoot me, I have friends who aren't Christians, but my children wouldn't be trained by them.)

Carrie:-)

 

I never thought of "unequally yoked" in this way. I always thought of marriage and close, personal relationships such as close friends and such, but not with regards to "teachers". But, it makes sense. Like Luke says, (poorly paraphrased), "...you will be like your teacher once you have been fully trained..." Where do they spend most of their time as children? At school. Interesting...

[NevadaRabbit]

To make it easier, one main question I have is what is the difference between Calvinism and Reformed Theology? I thought they were the same. Thanks!

 

CAMom gave a great, concise answer. Calvinism deals with soteriology - the "how" of salvation. Reformed Theology encompasses a Calvinist soteriology as well as other distinctives like covenant family/paedobaptism, and typically a non-dispensational view of eschatology (often amillenial).

 

This might make it easier: all Reformed are Calvinist, but not all Calvinists are Reformed.

 

In other words, there are Calvinists who are dispensational in eschatology and credobaptist.

 

And a slight correction to one of the early responses: the 5 Solas are not the same as the 5 points of Calvinism. The 5 Solas divide historic Protestantism from Catholicism, so all Protestants should be 5-point, um, Sola-ists - but not all Protestants are 5 or even 3 or 4-point Calvinists.

[NevadaRabbit]

:confused:

 

About the difference in the view of Israel - I am really a beginner in sorting this out, but I think that dispensationalists (usually not Reformed) hold that the believing remnant of Israel will be saved through Christ during the end times; the Reformed view of eschatology is "replacement" theology, which says that the Church has replaced Israel and Israel no longer holds a special place in how the end times will play out.

[Dianne-TX]

CAMom gave a great, concise answer. Calvinism deals with soteriology - the "how" of salvation. Reformed Theology encompasses a Calvinist soteriology as well as other distinctives like covenant family/paedobaptism, and typically a non-dispensational view of eschatology (often amillenial).

 

This might make it easier: all Reformed are Calvinist, but not all Calvinists are Reformed.

 

In other words, there are Calvinists who are dispensational in eschatology and credobaptist.

 

And a slight correction to one of the early responses: the 5 Solas are not the same as the 5 points of Calvinism. The 5 Solas divide historic Protestantism from Catholicism, so all Protestants should be 5-point, um, Sola-ists - but not all Protestants are 5 or even 3 or 4-point Calvinists.

 

Thank you, NR, as always your responses are helpful.

[Dianne-TX]

About the difference in the view of Israel - I am really a beginner in sorting this out, but I think that dispensationalists (usually not Reformed) hold that the believing remnant of Israel will be saved through Christ during the end times; the Reformed view of eschatology is "replacement" theology, which says that the Church has replaced Israel and Israel no longer holds a special place in how the end times will play out.

 

This has been true of the many Bible churches we have attended and the pastor/teacher's have all been dispensationalists and not Reformed. I believe amillienialist (forgive me for misspelling, if I did) believe that the church has replaced Israel, too. We had one family that believed this in a Bible church we attended and there was definite teaching that was opposite of that belief. Which leads me to another question, how do you determine what beliefs you "give" on and what beliefs are deal breakers? In other words, what the "majors" and what are the "minors". I understand some "majors" are going to obvious like the diety of Christ, our sin nature, etc. But, what about sprinkling vs. immersion? Is that a "minor" since it's not a necessity to be baptized. Or is it a "major" because the Bible clearing defines baptism as immersion and you can't contradict the Bible. I could go on, but I'll stop there. :) Thanks...

[angela in ohio]

This has been true of the many Bible churches we have attended and the pastor/teacher's have all been dispensationalists and not Reformed. I believe amillienialist (forgive me for misspelling, if I did) believe that the church has replaced Israel, too. We had one family that believed this in a Bible church we attended and there was definite teaching that was opposite of that belief. Which leads me to another question, how do you determine what beliefs you "give" on and what beliefs are deal breakers? In other words, what the "majors" and what are the "minors". I understand some "majors" are going to obvious like the diety of Christ, our sin nature, etc. But, what about sprinkling vs. immersion? Is that a "minor" since it's not a necessity to be baptized. Or is it a "major" because the Bible clearing defines baptism as immersion and you can't contradict the Bible. I could go on, but I'll stop there. :) Thanks...

 

Our "majors" are anything having to do with salvation, the authority of Scripture, and a Biblical church structure. The "minors" are anything from end times (though I feel strongly about that) to dress.

[mommaduck]

About the difference in the view of Israel - I am really a beginner in sorting this out, but I think that dispensationalists (usually not Reformed) hold that the believing remnant of Israel will be saved through Christ during the end times; the Reformed view of eschatology is "replacement" theology, which says that the Church has replaced Israel and Israel no longer holds a special place in how the end times will play out.

"Replacement Theology" is a misnomer from not understanding "Covenant Theology" and not agreeing with Dispensationalism on Israel. The term is used to make Reformed people look "evil" and scare other dispies from learning and understanding what Reformed really is.

 

I state this as a former Dispensationalist that thought this way...until a very kind and patient PCA minister took the time to answer and explain from my quite confrontational questioning.

Edited February 23, 2009 by mommaduck

[LND1218]

"Replacement Theology" is a misnomer from not understanding "Covenant Theology" and not agreeing with Dispensationalism on Israel. The term is used to make Reformed people look "evil" and scare other dispies from learning and understanding what Reformed really is.

 

:iagree: This is not what many believe although some do.

[NevadaRabbit]

"Replacement Theology" is a misnomer from not understanding "Covenant Theology" and not agreeing with Dispensationalism on Israel. The term is used to make Reformed people look "evil" and scare other dispies from learning and understanding what Reformed really is.

 

I state this as a former Dispensationalist that thought this way...until a very kind and patient PCA minister took the time to answer and explain from my quite confrontational questioning.

 

May I interject that it was not my personal intention to use the term in a confrontational way nor to make anyone look evil. :) Dispies believe that there remains a special plan for Israel yet to be fulfilled in the end times, while Covenant/Reformed views on end times see the Church in that place. As a Calvinist, I believe that God's elect are God's elect, Jew or Gentile.

[Dianne-TX]

May I interject that it was not my personal intention to use the term in a confrontational way nor to make anyone look evil. :) Dispies believe that there remains a special plan for Israel yet to be fulfilled in the end times, while Covenant/Reformed views on end times see the Church in that place. As a Calvinist, I believe that God's elect are God's elect, Jew or Gentile.

 

Hi, Jill... I believe as you do regarding this particular subject. Can you recommend any resources to help me muddle through all this? Thanks. Also, did you get my message? Just checking to make sure I did it right. :) Thanks...

[mommaduck]

Jill, I have no idea where you stand, so I wasn't taking you any particular way. Just stating that the term is not legit for Reformed people ;)

[Brenda in FL]

Dianne,

 

We have a southern Baptist background (teen,college,early marriage) then our SBC mission called a calvinist pastor! What a wake up call (I think most people would say that SBC churches are not at all calvinist although the very earliest baptist churches were)!! We eventually went to a PCA church and spent most of the past 10 years there until we moved.

 

For general purposes - I would probably say that reformed churches are calvinistic but maybe not all calvinistic churches are reformed. Not all churches hold to covenant theology as reformed churches do like the PCA. In addition not all reformed churches practice infant baptism.

 

When we moved we decided that we wanted to find a church that was reformed but also credo-baptist (as opposed to paedo-baptist). We found the three churches in our area that fit this description for us on the 9marks website. Not all the churches listed would classify themselves as reformed or calvinistic though. And all three churches had differing views as to disspensationalism, the apostolic gifts of the spirits, and eschatology. But each church was filled with homeschooling families, which was somewhat surprising to us. But welcome just the same! (I don't believe that it is because of any teaching theses churches have about education).

 

Because of the various positions they had on some of these subjects, it did play apart in the deciding which church to attend. One church, basically said that you had to agree with these teachings in order to serve in leadership. It was obvious that there viewpoints would be taught as truth and we had already begun teaching our children otherwise. (For example - we don't believe that scripture supports a rapture and the whole "Left Behind" mentality - so we wouldn't want to bring up our children in a church that does.)

 

At any rate - we did find that looking for a reformed credo-baptist church was a bit more complicated than just finding a church that was reformed and had believer's baptism only!

 

My dh met personally with each of the pastors and grilled them!! We ended up at a church where I feel the pastor is passionate about preaching the word of God. I think maybe that is what I've learned over the past few years - what does the Pastor believe is his major responsibility. Preachiing the word of God has to be the answer for us. This is how God moves in people from the teaching of the word and the pastor's passion should be reflected in his sermons, in the amount of time spent in personal study and preparation, and the commitment to discipling the members of the church in the Word. (Style of worship music, midweek activities, friendliness of church, etc - are all second to this requirement for us).

 

I would recommend the http://www.9marks.org as a starting point for finding some churches. Oh - wait - all three churches we visited were also at http://www.founders.org, which is a site for baptist churches returning to their reformed roots.

 

I mentioned that we were at a PCA church for 10 years and it was great - we loved it, the only thing was that we were not paedo-baptists. Keep in mind that PCA churches are all very varied! We had a great preacher for the last 5 years we were there and he spoiled us - there were several PCA churches we'd visit on vacation and such and they were like milk and cookies compared to the meat and potatos we were getting at our church! Also - not all PCA churches are filled with homeschoolers - I haven't been to any that were. But - if we did not find a credo-baptist reformed church - we probably woud have ended up back in the PCA. So the baptism thing is not a deal-breaker for us, although it does prevent dh from serving as an elder in the PCA.

 

By now, I have forgotten what you have asked in your original post!! I hope some of this has been helpful. And I am sorry that I posted this in the wrong place - this should be under Dianne's original post.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Brenda in FL

[Dianne-TX]

Dianne,

 

We have a southern Baptist background (teen,college,early marriage) then our SBC mission called a calvinist pastor! What a wake up call (I think most people would say that SBC churches are not at all calvinist although the very earliest baptist churches were)!! We eventually went to a PCA church and spent most of the past 10 years there until we moved.

 

For general purposes - I would probably say that reformed churches are calvinistic but maybe not all calvinistic churches are reformed. Not all churches hold to covenant theology as reformed churches do like the PCA. In addition not all reformed churches practice infant baptism.

 

When we moved we decided that we wanted to find a church that was reformed but also credo-baptist (as opposed to paedo-baptist). We found the three churches in our area that fit this description for us on the 9marks website. Not all the churches listed would classify themselves as reformed or calvinistic though. And all three churches had differing views as to disspensationalism, the apostolic gifts of the spirits, and eschatology. But each church was filled with homeschooling families, which was somewhat surprising to us. But welcome just the same! (I don't believe that it is because of any teaching theses churches have about education).

 

Because of the various positions they had on some of these subjects, it did play apart in the deciding which church to attend. One church, basically said that you had to agree with these teachings in order to serve in leadership. It was obvious that there viewpoints would be taught as truth and we had already begun teaching our children otherwise. (For example - we don't believe that scripture supports a rapture and the whole "Left Behind" mentality - so we wouldn't want to bring up our children in a church that does.)

 

At any rate - we did find that looking for a reformed credo-baptist church was a bit more complicated than just finding a church that was reformed and had believer's baptism only!

 

My dh met personally with each of the pastors and grilled them!! We ended up at a church where I feel the pastor is passionate about preaching the word of God. I think maybe that is what I've learned over the past few years - what does the Pastor believe is his major responsibility. Preachiing the word of God has to be the answer for us. This is how God moves in people from the teaching of the word and the pastor's passion should be reflected in his sermons, in the amount of time spent in personal study and preparation, and the commitment to discipling the members of the church in the Word. (Style of worship music, midweek activities, friendliness of church, etc - are all second to this requirement for us).

 

I would recommend the www.9marks.org as a starting point for finding some churches. Oh - wait - all three churches we visited were also at www.founders.org, which is a site for baptist churches returning to their reformed roots.

 

I mentioned that we were at a PCA church for 10 years and it was great - we loved it, the only thing was that we were not paedo-baptists. Keep in mind that PCA churches are all very varied! We had a great preacher for the last 5 years we were there and he spoiled us - there were several PCA churches we'd visit on vacation and such and they were like milk and cookies compared to the meat and potatos we were getting at our church! Also - not all PCA churches are filled with homeschoolers - I haven't been to any that were. But - if we did not find a credo-baptist reformed church - we probably woud have ended up back in the PCA. So the baptism thing is not a deal-breaker for us, although it does prevent dh from serving as an elder in the PCA.

 

By now, I have forgotten what you have asked in your original post!! I hope some of this has been helpful. And I am sorry that I posted this in the wrong place - this should be under Dianne's original post.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you! You don't know how reading this helped me! I appreciate your response greatly! Thanks for the links...

[staceyobu]

Well, I think you've gotten lots of theology advice to keep you busy... so I'll just share our personal story with you and leave it at that...

 

DH and I have both been Baptists our entire lives. My husband is actually an ordained Baptist minister and we spent 2.5 years on staff at a Baptist church before leaving the church to go to a PCA church. We were basically in the same boat as you are... very frustrated with different churches we had been a part of.

 

We went to one Baptist church that just wasn't really cutting it for us as far as providing us with spiritual depth/teaching. We left that church and went to another Baptist church that had great teaching but no connection. We just couldn't seem to become part of things and didn't feel like anyone on staff knew who we were after we'd been there for months... even though it was a relatively small congregation.

 

We left that church for my husband to take a staff position. We never would have left the Baptist church had it not been for our time on staff. We just really realized a lot of the downfalls that Baptist churches have. The staff had no support because the church did not have elders. You had various committees making decisions for the church body that often didn't mesh with the direction the staff felt the church should go. It was also a further realization of how little theology most Baptists know. Evangelical messages are very common... but the discipleship for believers is soooo lacking. Anyways, I won't continue on with everything that happened there (because it is much too long of a story to post) but it convinced us to reconsider everything.

 

We moved ten hours away for my husband to take a different job and made the decision to visit a PCA church. We were TOTALLY opposed to infant baptism and thought it might be a dealbreaker for us. But, we decided to try the church out anyways.

 

We have finally found so much of what we feel our church experience has been lacking. There is theological depth... I constantly feel like I am being challenged and learning. I've never heard covenant theology vs. dispensationalism discussed in a Sunday School class before attending a PCA church. We are also very happy that PCA churches have oversight. We like that they are connected together. If the church has a problem that they can't work out, the assembly can step in and sort through things. We have elders that make decsions along with the pastor for the direction of the church. They also work with keeping church members connected to each other, getting to know us, praying for us, etc. It's just a good system as far as all that.

 

All that said, the deeper our knowledge of covenant theology has become, the more acceptable infant baptism has become in our eyes. I do believe that my children are part of the covenant family. I like the fact that they are viewed as "non communing" church members instead of just regular old outsiders of the faith. I appreciate the emphasis on family and do see a scriptural basis for infant baptism now. Our pastor has also said there is no pressure to baptize the kids. My husband has even been attending deacon training and was told he can become a deacon without our kids being baptized into the church. They said it would really only become an issue if he were ever to become an elder/pastor in the PCA church. So, you don't have to adopt that teaching to be a part of the PCA church. That said, we probably will have all three of our children baptized into the church after this baby is born. And we were die hard baptists just one year ago!

 

Some of our baptist friends think we've gone off the deep end and I think they question if we are even "saved" now because we are part of a church that practices infant baptism and drinks alcohol. I must say, I am so so so happy with this decision. I'm happy with church for the first time... ever? I'm so shocked now to go to church with my parents and see the huge difference... it's just a different world as far as teaching/scripture emphasis/etc.

 

Our church also has a huge homeschool population (we never would be considering homeschooling without the emphasis of this church). I have enjoyed the greater emphasis on family in the church as well.

 

Good luck with your decision. I would definitely recommend at least giving the PCA church a try. It was a good fit for us... and I think your post sounded like where we were at several years ago...

[Dianne-TX]

Well, I think you've gotten lots of theology advice to keep you busy... so I'll just share our personal story with you and leave it at that...

 

DH and I have both been Baptists our entire lives. My husband is actually an ordained Baptist minister and we spent 2.5 years on staff at a Baptist church before leaving the church to go to a PCA church. We were basically in the same boat as you are... very frustrated with different churches we had been a part of.

 

We went to one Baptist church that just wasn't really cutting it for us as far as providing us with spiritual depth/teaching. We left that church and went to another Baptist church that had great teaching but no connection. We just couldn't seem to become part of things and didn't feel like anyone on staff knew who we were after we'd been there for months... even though it was a relatively small congregation.

 

We left that church for my husband to take a staff position. We never would have left the Baptist church had it not been for our time on staff. We just really realized a lot of the downfalls that Baptist churches have. The staff had no support because the church did not have elders. You had various committees making decisions for the church body that often didn't mesh with the direction the staff felt the church should go. It was also a further realization of how little theology most Baptists know. Evangelical messages are very common... but the discipleship for believers is soooo lacking. Anyways, I won't continue on with everything that happened there (because it is much too long of a story to post) but it convinced us to reconsider everything.

 

We moved ten hours away for my husband to take a different job and made the decision to visit a PCA church. We were TOTALLY opposed to infant baptism and thought it might be a dealbreaker for us. But, we decided to try the church out anyways.

 

We have finally found so much of what we feel our church experience has been lacking. There is theological depth... I constantly feel like I am being challenged and learning. I've never heard covenant theology vs. dispensationalism discussed in a Sunday School class before attending a PCA church. We are also very happy that PCA churches have oversight. We like that they are connected together. If the church has a problem that they can't work out, the assembly can step in and sort through things. We have elders that make decsions along with the pastor for the direction of the church. They also work with keeping church members connected to each other, getting to know us, praying for us, etc. It's just a good system as far as all that.

 

All that said, the deeper our knowledge of covenant theology has become, the more acceptable infant baptism has become in our eyes. I do believe that my children are part of the covenant family. I like the fact that they are viewed as "non communing" church members instead of just regular old outsiders of the faith. I appreciate the emphasis on family and do see a scriptural basis for infant baptism now. Our pastor has also said there is no pressure to baptize the kids. My husband has even been attending deacon training and was told he can become a deacon without our kids being baptized into the church. They said it would really only become an issue if he were ever to become an elder/pastor in the PCA church. So, you don't have to adopt that teaching to be a part of the PCA church. That said, we probably will have all three of our children baptized into the church after this baby is born. And we were die hard baptists just one year ago!

 

Some of our baptist friends think we've gone off the deep end and I think they question if we are even "saved" now because we are part of a church that practices infant baptism and drinks alcohol. I must say, I am so so so happy with this decision. I'm happy with church for the first time... ever? I'm so shocked now to go to church with my parents and see the huge difference... it's just a different world as far as teaching/scripture emphasis/etc.

 

Our church also has a huge homeschool population (we never would be considering homeschooling without the emphasis of this church). I have enjoyed the greater emphasis on family in the church as well.

 

Good luck with your decision. I would definitely recommend at least giving the PCA church a try. It was a good fit for us... and I think your post sounded like where we were at several years ago...

 

Thank you! Yes, we sound a lot alike in our journey. You are on the other side, though. :) I appreciate you taking the time to post and be so open. It really helped me to read it and see our similarities. I pray we can be settled somewhere, permanently, a year from now too. Thank you again.

[TravelingChris]

We are military and so we move every few years. We are always picking new churches. Now we come from the opposite end since all of us in our family were baptized as infants and don't want to be rebaptized. However, although we are Calvinists in theology, we have been members of various churches not all of which were Calvinist. We choose our churches on several basis- friendliness and welcoming, sound preaching, opportunities for our family to get involved quickly. Here we just became members of a PCA church. Yes, a number of families homeschool but a number don't. Our congregation is urban and it makes for a great mix- singles, married with children, married with children gone, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, - but all very nice. It is about 40% transient too just like us. My main issues that I had to forego for this church was the denominational prohibition of women elders (and deacons?). However, I have seen that they allow women to do the readings, and don't seem to be anti-women in any way so I can live with that. Otherwise it meets my criteria perfectly. In the last 15 years we have been members or attenders of United Methodist, Cumberland Presbyterian, PC-USA congregations ythat have now turned into EPC, and base chapels that were run by Baptist chaplains. I think the only time we ever heard about various views on end times were at the Cumberland Presbyterian Church where the minister preached against some popular distortions (in his views) of the Bible. Otherwise the miniters or chaplains are usually preaching on the Bible passage and emphasizing things like grace, mercy, righteousness, etc, etc. Nor has anyone ever preached on the origins or age of the Earth. Those kind of discussions have been left to SUnday School classes.

[K-FL]

If you want to add to your reading list, when we were in a OPC church the SS class was studying this book--

Christ of the Covenants It's been a few years, but it seems it does explain the whole covenant theology & the view on Israel. HTH