Phonics - the bane of my existence

[razorbackmama]

I don't even know where to start, so I'll just jump right in LOL.

 

From what I can tell, there are 2 main "methods" to teach phonics - word families (a la BJU - cat, rat, mat, sat) and the "other way" (not sure what it's called, a la A Beka - ca, ce, ci, co, cu). Right?

 

Which way is "better?"

 

We have always used word families simply because I personally couldn't figure out the other way. To me "ca" should have a long a sound, not a short one. I do realize that they put a consonant on the end eventually, but maybe I just haven't read enough of that sort of instruction to actually "get it?"

 

On the flip side, I can see where word families can cause problems because it kind of forces the child to sort of start at the end of the syllable rather than the beginning.

 

:confused:

 

Someone just posted a link to "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read" and I can so totally see my kids (and my dh!) in that.:sad: My kids haven't learned whole word (or whatever it's called), but one ds in particular does a L-O-T of guessing when he reads. I swear, sometimes he is just making up words as he goes along and I have NO clue what he is reading.:confused: He is the one I have to force to read, and I don't think I've ever seen him pick up a book to read for pleasure. He is 10.5.

 

I know next to nothing about "proper" phonics instruction - I taught myself to read using phonics off of Sesame Street, and that's been the extent of my phonics instruction LOL. We've always used the word family approach since it made sense to me, but I'm totally willing to learn the other way, if it's "better."

 

I just want to help my kids.:sad:

[razorbackmama]

In my googling, I came across vertical vs. horizontal phonics. I understand the difference, but which is "better"? We've been using horizontal since the get go. With vertical, how does a child know which sound to make with the letter when?

[Heather in Neverland]

Ummm... I used 100 EZ lessons with both my boys and it worked like a charm. Which method does that fall under?

[razorbackmama]

From what I can tell it's horizontal, with a sort of word family approach. That's what I'm using right now with my younger 2 school kids, and it is working for them right now. I guess I'm just concerned about long term. I don't want to have to do remedial work with them just because a particular method I chose for them wasn't very good. I think I'm going to have to do that wih my 10yo.:001_unsure:

 

It's funny, I'm in my 8th year of homeschooling, and at times I'm just as unsure of myself as when I just began.

[A home for their hearts]

I'm having a lot of trouble teaching my ds8 to read. I wasn't taught with phonics so I really am learning right along with him. We were using OPGTR but he hated it so we switched to the I Am Sam books but he thinks they are babyish and hates to read them I'm getting reading to order Abecedarian. It teaches all the different ways a phonogram can be spelled at the same time. I'm new to this program so maybe somebody who understand it better can chime in!

 

What was the link to Why Johnny doesn't like to read? That sounds interesting!

[razorbackmama]

We didn't like OPGTR either.:tongue_smilie:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/aliterate.html is the link - someone posted it in another thread.

 

It looks like what you are about to start using is called "vertical" phonics.

[AnnetteB]

Veritas Press' Phonics Museum kindergarten and first grade program is very good. The Teacher's Manuals are clear and easy to follow. The kids love clapping or raising their hands when they hear the target sound and making words with alphabet puzzle pieces. I did find that the readers' storylines were a bit confusing at times, but they can be explained. I am actually skipping a few of the small readers with ds, 5. We read plenty of other early reader level books. Elijah is 5yr4mo. and has begun the first grade workbook and he LOVES phonics time. The older kids that have used the program liked it, too.

[Alana in Canada]

If you want "proper" phonics instruction, run, do not walk to either Spell to Write and Read by Wanda Sanseri or its predecessor, The Writing Road to Reading by Spaulding. Both systems teach reading and spelling simultaneously based on Orton-Gillingham.

 

Research these two methods and find a fit for you. I, too, had to remediate my son at 8--and I chose SWR, mainly for spelling, funnily enugh, but boy did he learn to read!!

 

It is a multi-age program--it's even suitable for adults learning English as a Second Language, so it won't be babyish to your 10 year old. (Which is very important. In fact, if you use SWR as a splling program, he won't even realise he's re-learning to read!)

[CookieMonster]

Which way is "better?"

 

My honest answer is: whichever way you prefer.

 

Honest.

 

There is not one single perfectly right way to learn to read. Children have very successfully learned to read using each method you mentioned. I will say that I think using a program or curriculum, is, in my opinion, better than just trying to pull phonics out of your head to teach a child.

 

The absolute key is consistent instruction from whatever program or curriculum you choose. So pick a program that you - the mom - look forward to pulling off the shelf each day and using.

 

Consistent long-term instruction from A Beka, OPGTR, SWR, the Phonics Museum, or 100 EZ lessons will produce a competent reader who does not need remediation. The only reason to choose one over the other is personal preference (either your or the child's).

 

Really. :001_smile:

[coralloyd]

I stumbled around a lot with my oldest. Then I found Phonics Pathways for dd4 (she was begging to read like sister), It is working great! I wish I would have found it sooner.

[razorbackmama]

My honest answer is: whichever way you prefer.

 

You're most likely right.

 

However, I've done this:

 

The absolute key is consistent instruction from whatever program or curriculum you choose. So pick a program that you - the mom - look forward to pulling off the shelf each day and using.

 

Consistent long-term instruction from A Beka, OPGTR, SWR, the Phonics Museum, or 100 EZ lessons will produce a competent reader who does not need remediation. The only reason to choose one over the other is personal preference (either your or the child's).

 

Really. :001_smile:

 

with my 10yo, and while he can read, when I read that article I linked to, I immediately thought of him, due to the guessing and stuff. Which is what makes me wonder.

 

I dunno...it's hard to explain

[razorbackmama]

I stumbled around a lot with my oldest. Then I found Phonics Pathways for dd4 (she was begging to read like sister), It is working great! I wish I would have found it sooner.

 

Can you tell me more how it works? It seems to use (what I think is called) the "ladder" approach or something? Like ba, be, bi, bo, bu? (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) How does the child learn when the vowel is long or short with that method?

 

Maybe I've been confusing...I'm not looking for a particular phonics program...I'm trying to learn how the methods differ and why one might have better results than others.

[Mommyfaithe]

I don't even know where to start, so I'll just jump right in LOL.

 

From what I can tell, there are 2 main "methods" to teach phonics - word families (a la BJU - cat, rat, mat, sat) and the "other way" (not sure what it's called, a la A Beka - ca, ce, ci, co, cu). Right?

 

Which way is "better?"

 

We have always used word families simply because I personally couldn't figure out the other way. To me "ca" should have a long a sound, not a short one. I do realize that they put a consonant on the end eventually, but maybe I just haven't read enough of that sort of instruction to actually "get it?"

 

On the flip side, I can see where word families can cause problems because it kind of forces the child to sort of start at the end of the syllable rather than the beginning.

 

:confused:

 

Someone just posted a link to "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read" and I can so totally see my kids (and my dh!) in that.:sad: My kids haven't learned whole word (or whatever it's called), but one ds in particular does a L-O-T of guessing when he reads. I swear, sometimes he is just making up words as he goes along and I have NO clue what he is reading.:confused: He is the one I have to force to read, and I don't think I've ever seen him pick up a book to read for pleasure. He is 10.5.

 

I know next to nothing about "proper" phonics instruction - I taught myself to read using phonics off of Sesame Street, and that's been the extent of my phonics instruction LOL. We've always used the word family approach since it made sense to me, but I'm totally willing to learn the other way, if it's "better."

 

I just want to help my kids.:sad:

 

OK...I say both....

 

I have taught 6 of my 7 to read...and I am now on # 7.

I use any and all methods I can think of.

My best advise...Learn phonics yourself. Take out from the Library 100 easy lessons, Phonics Pathways, and Alphaphonics. Look how they teach phonics.

 

I call one type front end (ba-be-bi-bo-bu) and the other back end (at, bat, mat, fat, cat...)

 

My older 3 learned with back end..# 4 taught himself...# 5 just could not understand reading the back of the word and then tagging on the front. I happened to come across my old blue backed speller...took it out and used it with her for a few weeks...she was reading at a 3rd grade level when we were done...it clicked.

 

Once something clicks...go from there...

 

Then teach phonics rules ( spelling rules) I used Reading for Spelling or something like that by Bonnie Dettmer, which was a spin off on Wanda Sanseri's Writing Road to Reading. I taught them all the rules AFTER they could de-code simple words...but I had to learn them first. You can google phonics rules and get a list...easy peasy.

 

Have them buddy read with you. Bob books, Phonics readers, progress to Frog & Toad...

 

But most importantly remember...learning to read is not difficult and SHOULD BE FUN! Little kids learn to read. They don't have to know every rule...they don't have to know every nuance...and it won't kill them to learn different stategies to figure out new words (does that word make sense? Is it really a word? ) Laugh and be silly and have fun. Learning to read is like learning to walk or talk...all of us go about it in our own way...but we all learn...some sooner...some easier...some later...some with more practice...but we all learn.

 

be creative...write stories with 3 letter words and your child's name

write notes on where to find a POP.

Write words in magnets, shaving cream on the bath tub wall, dry erase markers, on post its .

Have fun and enjoy you little one! Make precious memories. These days pass by so fast!

 

Soon your posts will be on the best Calculus method...

 

LOL

Faithe

[JenniferB]

If you want "proper" phonics instruction, run, do not walk to either Spell to Write and Read by Wanda Sanseri or its predecessor, The Writing Road to Reading by Spaulding. Both systems teach reading and spelling simultaneously based on Orton-Gillingham.

 

Research these two methods and find a fit for you. I, too, had to remediate my son at 8--and I chose SWR, mainly for spelling, funnily enugh, but boy did he learn to read!!

 

It is a multi-age program--it's even suitable for adults learning English as a Second Language, so it won't be babyish to your 10 year old. (Which is very important. In fact, if you use SWR as a splling program, he won't even realise he's re-learning to read!)

 

:iagree: My daughter, age 10, is doing great with SWR. I hate to admit this, but I was about to give up on teaching spelling becuase I thought she was hopeless (don't tell her I said this). There are ways of getting through life without good spelling skills, right? I thought I'd give it a really good try with SWR first though. Well, the results have been fabulous, and we are only a few months into it. We are sounding out words in her other assignments and using the spelling rules & phonics we have learned. I think it will help her reading too! I highly recommend this program.

 

Warning, though, it's not for the faint of heart! It takes a lot of work to learn it, and teach it. It's a struggle, but it's really worth the effort, IMO.

[razorbackmama]

Sigh.

 

I must be pregnant or something because this is just so incredibly frustrating for me. I am afraid that my response is going to be snarky, but PLEASE know that it's just because I'm frustrated and confused, not because I'm arguing with you or anything.:grouphug:

 

OK...I say both....

 

I have taught 6 of my 7 to read...and I am now on # 7.

I use any and all methods I can think of.

My best advise...Learn phonics yourself. Take out from the Library 100 easy lessons, Phonics Pathways, and Alphaphonics. Look how they teach phonics.

 

I know phonics. I think I'm the only one in our house who does. We used Reading Made Easy for a while, then BJU for, gosh, EVER, and now I'm using 100 EZ Lessons with 2 of them. I will say I've never used the "front end" method simply because I never could understand it. I keep wanting someone to explain how ba said "bah" (not sure how to type it with the short a sound LOL) rather than "bay," like it would in a word with an open syllable, but no one ever does. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

I call one type front end (ba-be-bi-bo-bu) and the other back end (at, bat, mat, fat, cat...)

 

Once something clicks...go from there...

 

See the thing is, I'm thinking of my 10yo. The "back end" clicked OK with him. He's reading. He can spell great. We read together often, and I'm amazed at some of the words he comes up with.:001_huh: He was TAUGHT back-end phonics, but it's almost as though he LEARNED whole-word or whatever it's called. He sees the word "courage" and might say "cage." It's almost as though he looks at the beginning and end of the word and just takes a wild stab at what the word is, rather than actually sounding it out.

 

I'm not sure if that makes sense.

 

I will say that I don't think that all you have to do to get a kid to love to read is to make reading "fun" - I've done that and so far only 1 out of my 3 likes reading. My mil did EVERYTHING right. I mean, you know those lists of "how to raise a reader"? She did them all religiously. My dh HATES to read, and I FIRMLY believe it is because of the method he was taught (not phonics). So I do think there is something more to it than "finding what works and making it fun."

[Ellie]

See the thing is, I'm thinking of my 10yo. The "back end" clicked OK with him. He's reading. He can spell great. We read together often, and I'm amazed at some of the words he comes up with.:001_huh: He was TAUGHT back-end phonics, but it's almost as though he LEARNED whole-word or whatever it's called. He sees the word "courage" and might say "cage." It's almost as though he looks at the beginning and end of the word and just takes a wild stab at what the word is, rather than actually sounding it out.

That's often how dc who are taught sight reading try to figure things out. The author of Why Johnyy Still Can't read has excerpts from teacher editions of sight-reading materials that instruct the teachers to encourage their students to do that--look at the first letters and the last and take a stab at it.

I will say that I don't think that all you have to do to get a kid to love to read is to make reading "fun" - I've done that and so far only 1 out of my 3 likes reading. My mil did EVERYTHING right. I mean, you know those lists of "how to raise a reader"? She did them all religiously. My dh HATES to read, and I FIRMLY believe it is because of the method he was taught (not phonics). So I do think there is something more to it than "finding what works and making it fun."

ITA. Some children will learn to read no matter what, but I'd just rather start off with a plan than hope for the best. In our case, it was Spalding.

[razorbackmama]

That's often how dc who are taught sight reading try to figure things out. The author of Why Johnyy Still Can't read has excerpts from teacher editions of sight-reading materials that instruct the teachers to encourage their students to do that--look at the first letters and the last and take a stab at it.

 

Yup. Where he learned that though...:confused::confused::confused:

 

ITA. Some children will learn to read no matter what, but I'd just rather start off with a plan than hope for the best. In our case, it was Spalding.

That is what I'm leaning toward. SWR is based off Spalding, right?

[Wee Pip]

After stressing over Horizontal - Vertical - Ladders - and Whatnot methods, I'm in the Whatever Works camp:)

 

My 8yo knew her phonics sounds & rules inside & out, but reading still wasn't clicking, & she hated to read. I picked up this book from the library:

 

Teach Your Child to Read With Children's Books (by Thogmartin)

 

It helped me pull together the missing ingredient in my dd's reading, which was FLUENCY. She was stuck in the /c/ /a/ /t/ rut, and it was tedious. Truth is, when we adults read, we do more than phonics to read words. We often glance at words quickly and sort of "guess" them based on context. I started picking up easy, predictable children's books (booklists included in the Teach Your Child to Read With Children's Books), and encouraging my dd to just read it, rather than getting stuck in the phonics part of it. I'd have her point to the words, and if she didn't know one, I'd help her through it in context, not just phonics. It took her awhile to get over the pains of reading, but once we focused on context & reading for enjoyment, rather than strictly phonics, her reading took off. I know this goes against the 100% Phonics Or Else line of thinking, but it really is more of a Whatever Works method, and it happened to be what worked for her.

[YHZNS]

I learned to read using the key words (Ladybird UK) approach. Since this is how I learned to read, this is how I taught my daughter to read. She did very well with this method and enjoyed the Peter and Jane books. When I went to my first homeschooling conference I was introduced to the new and scary world of phonics. I tried many programs with my daughter. It was a lot of trial and error before we found the right fit. I know some kids like Hooked on Phonics but it did not work for us. My daughter got bored very easily and it uses word families like cat, hat, pat, etc. I found that she guessed a lot with the word families. We also tried the online program Headsprout. From all the reviews that I had read, I was sure that Headsprout was going to be great for us and that she would be reading at a 2nd grade level by the end... not the case. The program that has worked best for us is ABeCeDarian. In Level A it introduces 6 words per unit. The words mix up the vowel sounds, etc. so there is very little room for guessing. We also use the Primary Phonics workbooks and storybooks.

 

Rebecca

[SophiaH]

If you're interested at all in learning ca, ce, ci, co, cu, cy, etc...you might look at this thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70153

 

Using the syllabary is the direction we have now headed. Don't know if it is the type of information you're looking for, but just in case...

[KrissiK]

I'd go with the "whatever works" camp. I'm teaching my very verbal/linguistic 4 year old and my very analytical 5 year old (both boys) kindergarten this year using A Beka phonics program. My 4 year old is doing great, he's really learning how to read, but he also loves words in general. He's familiar with words, he talks constantly. My 5 year old makes all sorts of stuff up when he's reading. It's very frustrating. But, he's excelling in math. I'm not planning on changing the way I'm teaching. I'm not going to buy a separate curriculum for each learning style. But, I have set myself to be much more patient with my 5 year old and try to adjust to his learning style a little better with what we've got. I think A Beka is a fine curriculum, but I"m sure the others are great, too.

[TKDmom]

Her is a very LONG thread on what you seem to be asking about: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70153&highlight=syllabary

 

I haven't looked at all the info long enough to figure out why ba would have a "short a" vs. a "long a" sound. But I remember reading about those rules on that thread. :)

 

I know, not the most helpful post. Good luck with figuring it all out.

[razorbackmama]

If you're interested at all in learning ca, ce, ci, co, cu, cy, etc...you might look at this thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70153

 

Using the syllabary is the direction we have now headed. Don't know if it is the type of information you're looking for, but just in case...

The SYLLABARY, I get.:D And I see that Elizabeth in that thread expresses the same concern I have - teaching an open syllable as a short vowel. Ahhhhhhhh it's not just me! LOL I will have to read that thread more because that method does resonate with me quite a bit, but yeah, I need something easy for me to teach.

 

Her is a very LONG thread on what you seem to be asking about: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70153&highlight=syllabary

 

I haven't looked at all the info long enough to figure out why ba would have a "short a" vs. a "long a" sound. But I remember reading about those rules on that thread. :)

 

I know, not the most helpful post. Good luck with figuring it all out.

LOL y'all posted the same thread!:lol:

[usetoschool]

Just to add something else into the mix, Explode the Code, starting around Level 4 I think, does a good job of explaining why syllables sound they way they do and what makes the vowel short or long.

[sixpence1978]

I have to admit that I used to be a staunch supporter of the ladder-approach. I do still favor it to the word family approach (though that can work too), just because it really does train the eye to move left to right.

 

However, that being said, my DD just never really learned the ba be bi...blending all that well. She sort of got it, but it never really got easier. She still sounded out each individual sound. You know what, she does great just sounding out each sound and then getting the word. I think the entire premise of the 2 methods of blending is to get the kids saying the words more smoothly.

 

Even though she learned those beginning blends, she still hasn't had a problem learning about open syllables either. The reason being, the ladder blends are really just used to get the child reading 3-4 letter words. The open syllables aren't introduced (in Abeka anyway) until after the emphasis for those blends has tapered off significantly.

 

Honestly, with your DC being a bit older and just needing some remedial work (it sounds like), you wouldn't have to start at the beginning. Something that is a bit tedious that Abeka does that I really like, is they teach the kids to circle what they call "special sounds" but are really just digraphs (etc..) and marking the vowels.

 

So, using the word "courage", the "ou" would be circled to show that it says something special. It is just something to really get them to dissect the word and then sound it out.

 

I'd say SWR would be your best bet. Not too babyish, but will really teach how to dissect a word.

[daybreaking]

Last year I used OPGTR with my 5 year old. It was "okay," but things just didn't seem to click with him. He knew all of his consonant sounds, but not the short vowels, despite plenty of review. This year, I switched to Rod and Staff Phonics and it has been fantastic. They start out teaching the short vowels and then each consonant, thus the student gets 21 more occasions of practicing the short vowels, with each new consonant. The program is outstanding for teaching both types of blends: ba, be, bi, bo and bu with short vowels and then again with the long vowels. Students are simply taught that ba is the short one and ba with a macron is the long one. I was amazed at how quickly my son differentiated between the two. Soon after learning the long vowels (which are taught after the short vowels and consonants), students learn the rules for when a word is a long vowel word or a short one. For instance, we recently covered a section that taught three "long vowel rules": if a word has an e a the end (ex. Pete), has two vowels together (ex. beat) or ends with a vowel (ex. me), then the word has the long sound.

 

As a side note, we also use their reading program and it integrates word families, as well, so students get both methods. We've found it to be a great combination.

 

Hope this helps!

[ElizabethB]

Word families give some children a bit of trouble (although nowhere near the amount of trouble that sight words causes, and for a much smaller percentage of children than those taught with sight words.)

 

The way PP/OPG teaches leads to the least problems, but I don't like teaching ca as short a, although it doesn't seem to bother the children taught that way. I actually like the way it is explained to teach it in Blend Phonics better, then you're kind of teaching ca as short but you're just writing it out on a board, so it's not so obvious. Blend Phonics is free online at Don Potter's Education Page.

 

If you watch my first 20 phonics lessons (6 to 7 hours total to that point, about 11 hours for all of them) and the 20 minute movie linked from the syllabary thread and my Webster link below, teaching with Webster's Speller will be easy!

 

It is actually very simple, young teenage girls used to teach it, it's just a little different from modern phonics methods. They show no instructions with the book--I think because they taught it in one room schools, once you had seen it taught 6 or 8 times, you would have no need for instructions.

 

I do think that Webster's Speller is the best way to go, but you'll get a good reader with almost any good phonics method that doesn't teach a lot of sight words. Any problem caused by word families is much easier to remediate than the problems caused by sight words, and is usually quickly overcome through phonetic spelling practice and/or using an additional non-word family based phonics program.

[Ellie]

Yup. Where he learned that though...:confused::confused::confused:

What did you use to teach him in the first place?? (I'm too lazy to go looking, lol).

 

That is what I'm leaning toward. SWR is based off Spalding, right?

I guess you could say that, but not "officially," as in with any sort of blessing from Spalding Education International. SWR has definite similarities. I'm a Spalding geek and proud of it so of course that's what I'd recommend :D

[razorbackmama]

What did you use to teach him in the first place?? (I'm too lazy to go looking, lol).

 

BJU, which is word family. But they have a lot of sight words. Their goal is to get the kids reading so they can start comprehending the stories, so they teach a lot of eventually decodable words as sight words at the very beginning. So while it's phonics, their reading program relies heavily on context. For example, if a child doesn't know a word, they flat out say not to have the child sound it out but to just tell the child so that the "flow" is not interrupted.

 

Elizabeth, I have a ton of questions for you, but I am supposed to be cooking supper, so I will have to come back to it. ROFLOL!!!

[mktyler]

There are in fact many types of phonics, depending on the grouping of the sound-spelling correspondences (eg. sh for /sh/ in wish, ti for /sh/ in nation, etc.) of the English alphabetic code. In my research of 17,000 words, there are over 400 possible sound-spelling correspondences. Different programs group the sound-spelling correspondences to simplify instruction. The word family version is not as effective or efficient as it can lead to part-word or whole word guessing, and can lead kids to focus on the end of a word--even when it does not fit into the limited word type addressed (short, rhyming words)--thus missing ALL the pertinent information in the letters of a word.

 

The core skill of reading is reading each sound-spelling correspondence once, from left to right, all through the word. For remediating struggling readers who do not read all through the word, I would suggest the use of the notched card as developed by Hilse Burkard in the UK. It is a 3x5 card or business-sized card with the left corner cut out to form a square cutout. Slide the card, exposing one sound-spelling correspondence at a time. As your son becomes more proficient, you can move to exposing whole words. This technique cuts out the images from the peripheral vision which can confuse some kids. Eventually your son's brain will learn what information is important--the letters he's focusing on--and the skill of moving from left to right and back again. It took my daughter about a week of intensive practice at the age of 8 to get it.

 

My guess is once these skills are gained his enjoyment of reading will dramatically increase.

 

Another problem often encountered in kids struggling with reading is that many programs do not teach enough of the correspondences, whatever their grouping. My analysis of adult level text indicates they contain 300+ correspondences. Programs such as Phonics Pathways, ABeCedarian, and OPGTR teach 150-180 of these. Most others teach considerably less. I ended up teaching my daughter over 220 of the most common (and 80 of the not so common) before she felt confident enough to pick up a book on her own.

 

So, 1) check his left to right reading, using the notched card, or a fingertip, making him say each sound in the word, and 2) if he is does not know a sound for the spellings, teach them.

 

You also expressed concern about knowing which sound to apply to which letter. Frankly, this is difficult to condense into a few rules as some programs do. There is so much variation. It seems that what is needed is to teach the alternatives that a letter or a group of letters may represent. Spalding does this with her phonograms, although she leaves out a lot of possibilities and mixes in inefficient rules (works for some, dreadful for others). For my daughter, I ended up teaching each correspondence at a time, practicing it in relevant words. When she would come to a word she didn't know and she pronounced a sound wrong, I would prompt with, "What other sound can this letter (or letter group) spell?" She would then try alternatives till she got it right. This is another fundamental skill, because its what we all do when reading a new word.

 

Hope this answers your questions adequately.

 

Melissa

Minnesota

Reading Program Junkie

dd(10) dd(6) ds(4) ds(1)

[Mommyfaithe]

Sigh.

 

I must be pregnant or something because this is just so incredibly frustrating for me. I am afraid that my response is going to be snarky, but PLEASE know that it's just because I'm frustrated and confused, not because I'm arguing with you or anything.:grouphug:

 

 

 

I know phonics. I think I'm the only one in our house who does. We used Reading Made Easy for a while, then BJU for, gosh, EVER, and now I'm using 100 EZ Lessons with 2 of them. I will say I've never used the "front end" method simply because I never could understand it. I keep wanting someone to explain how ba said "bah" (not sure how to type it with the short a sound LOL) rather than "bay," like it would in a word with an open syllable, but no one ever does. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

I call one type front end (ba-be-bi-bo-bu) and the other back end (at, bat, mat, fat, cat...)

 

 

 

See the thing is, I'm thinking of my 10yo. The "back end" clicked OK with him. He's reading. He can spell great. We read together often, and I'm amazed at some of the words he comes up with.:001_huh: He was TAUGHT back-end phonics, but it's almost as though he LEARNED whole-word or whatever it's called. He sees the word "courage" and might say "cage." It's almost as though he looks at the beginning and end of the word and just takes a wild stab at what the word is, rather than actually sounding it out.

 

I'm not sure if that makes sense.

 

I will say that I don't think that all you have to do to get a kid to love to read is to make reading "fun" - I've done that and so far only 1 out of my 3 likes reading. My mil did EVERYTHING right. I mean, you know those lists of "how to raise a reader"? She did them all religiously. My dh HATES to read, and I FIRMLY believe it is because of the method he was taught (not phonics). So I do think there is something more to it than "finding what works and making it fun."

 

Pregnant...Well...I spent most of my adult life that way...snarky?? NOPE!!!

 

As far as Front end phonics goes, I always thought it was the dumbest thing I ever saw. Who would want to say phonetic sounds when they could read real words??? But, my little girl could not understand why anyone would read the end of a word and then go back to the front>>>ARG!!!! So, as I said, I pulled out my blue backed speller and gave it a shot. I thought it was silly. She found it fascinating...go figure?? So, we worked on

 

BA......Bat

BA ban

BA bam

ba bad

 

bi....bit

bi....bib

bi....bin

bi...big

 

I loved the method from 100 ez lessons wher he used a dot and a line and as his finger went under the word, the child says the sound...so I made up lots of word pages using the dot...line arrow thingy.

 

Grace has a hat

Grace has a cat.

Grace has a fat cat.

The fat cat sat on Grace.

 

So, front end phonics worked for her.

 

I never said make it fun...it is hard work. I said make it memorable. Enjoy your little one. Don't lose the forest for the trees. Educate yourself to educate them. Kids can learn to read, it just takes a little finding what you are comfortable with and what makes them click with it. All my kids love to read (except my 5th grader who get frustrated because she wants to read really hard books, but doesn't want to thoroughly take the time to learn how to read well. She hates baby books so I just keep reading to her and working on reading lessons incognito. She can read well...at about a 7th or 8th grade level, but all the good literature we read from Ambleside online sort of spoiled her into only very well written books. She wants to read Treasure Island and original Grimm's fairy Tales. She is not interested in the books my other kiddoes so again, i have to reinvent the wheel with that one...sigh.

 

Charlotte Mason talks a lot about "word pictures" and whole word reading mixed with phonics instruction. She wrote about using word families and then using phonics rules at another time. She used different terminology than is used nowadays, but her point was to teach kids to read...let them read A LOT from their own school books, use narration for comprehension, teach the pictures words create in our minds to understand, use of nursery rhymes for phonics and word families.

 

A gentle, natural approach...not taking no for an answer...and steady work, daily in very short lessons is what worked for my children.

 

I LOVE teaching reading. I am now learning to teach math...which is a foreign language to me, but I am determined to use the same types of methodologies. I am reading all I can as far as teacher manuals, concept books and books on math rules to teach myself the dreaded subject. Then using my math program, I am teaching my little ones mathematics like I have never taught it before. We are making progress. It is exciting. Now, if I could find a magic bullet for writing (which i think may be unveiled somewhere along the lines of IEW, Bravewriter and Charlotte Mason:D)

 

 

Gotta go give my very impatient little guys some milk and cookies. If you want to talk some more about this, I am a phonics and reading nerd. It actually excites me to talk about it. I also love Grammar..LOL although my quick typing would never show that especially with my whiny 5 year old...

~~Faithe

[MerryAtHope]

We used Reading Reflex which doesn't exactly fit into word-families. It's based on the work of Orton Gillingham and has the child learn phonograms, and then progress to reading. Personally I'm not a fan of the 2nd method you posted because I do think for some kids it's misleading (and you are right, if you see be, you don't pronounce it /beh/ in your reading, you pronounce it with a long e).

 

Merry :-)

[Lovedtodeath]

If you want "proper" phonics instruction, run, do not walk to either Spell to Write and Read by Wanda Sanseri or its predecessor, The Writing Road to Reading by Spaulding. Both systems teach reading and spelling simultaneously based on Orton-Gillingham.

 

Research these two methods and find a fit for you. I, too, had to remediate my son at 8--and I chose SWR, mainly for spelling, funnily enugh, but boy did he learn to read!!

 

It is a multi-age program--it's even suitable for adults learning English as a Second Language, so it won't be babyish to your 10 year old. (Which is very important. In fact, if you use SWR as a splling program, he won't even realise he's re-learning to read!)

 

Take a look at my sig line.

[Julieofsardis]

I absolutely hate when supposed phonics programs teach that ba, be, bi, bo, bu say bah, beh, bih, boh, boo. That does not follow any of the rules. Open syllables have a long sound and closed syllables have a short sound.

 

I don't know what horizontal and vertical phonics are, but I know what I think is the best.

 

Any good phonics program will teach syllable types. Ba is an open syllable because their is no vowel to "close" the back door. This particular skill is so necessary when learning to read multi-syllable words.

 

Programs we have used and enjoyed that follow this method are Alphaphonics, Reading Reflex, Explode the Code, How To Teach Spelling, and All About Spelling. We have also been using some of the word lists from Webster's Bluebacked Speller. I am grateful to ElizabethB for explaining this to me. I always looked at that and thought the syllabary followed the letter ladder approach. I immediately disregarded it because I hate that method. Now, I understand that even though it looks the same as Abeka's and some other letter ladder's it is not meant to be pronounced that way. I wish I had known that early on.

 

Basically any Orton-Gillingham based program is going to teach that way.

[Ellie]

BJU, which is word family. But they have a lot of sight words. Their goal is to get the kids reading so they can start comprehending the stories, so they teach a lot of eventually decodable words as sight words at the very beginning. So while it's phonics, their reading program relies heavily on context. For example, if a child doesn't know a word, they flat out say not to have the child sound it out but to just tell the child so that the "flow" is not interrupted.

 

Elizabeth, I have a ton of questions for you, but I am supposed to be cooking supper, so I will have to come back to it. ROFLOL!!!

See, that's why I've never been very enthusiastic about BJUP's "phonics" instruction.

 

I'm thinking you really do need to start over with Spalding or SWR.

[Lovedtodeath]

Well. You have gotten great advice! One sound at a time, left to write, WRTR, Webster's... I have one more to add for an older student, The Phonics Road. It is based on SWR from what I understand. Here is a review:

 

We use the Phonics Road to Spelling and Reading. It is wonderful. I can't say enough about it. My son went from reading on a 2nd grade level to a 4th grade level in one school year. I have my kids watch the video everyday and write their words along with the teacher. It takes about 10-15 minutes a day and on Fridays we take a test. Many moms do not have their kids watch the video, they teach the lesson everyday, but it a program where you repeat the lesson all week and the kids learn all the rules just be repeating it over and over throughout the week. My kids do not "love" it, but they know it's quick and easy and thier done. More importantly for me, they are truly learning. The other benefit to me is that I can work with the one child while the other one is doing their lesson and then swap out and work with the other one. I don't have to "do" anything. They pop in the DVD and go. It's like Math-U-See in a way. It is so detailed. I and every mom that I know that uses this program have learned things!! It's awesome! For example, we learned that "a" has 3 sounds, not 2. We learned how to properly mark all of our words and also how to tell the origin of a word. For example if "ch" says "sh" it has a french origin, and many other rules like this. (This would be helpful to know if your child ever competed in a spelling bee since competitors are allowed to ask the origin of a word.) She teaches all of the rules with different songs. One song we like in particular starts out with, "English has 5 reasons for a silent final e, a silent final e, a silent final e..." The one thing that I do have to do on my own is dictation. She doesn't do that on the video, she just tell you, the mom, to do it every day with your child. She also has a book study lfor evels 2 and up. Those are not taught on the video, but are basically your child reading the assigned pages and doing the worksheets on their own. I could go on and on, as you can easily see!! :) :)

 

HTH,

Stephanie

The PHONICS Road to Spelling and Reading is a complete K-4 curriculum

offering the parent a comprehensive video teacher training text with

an emphasis on accurate speaking, spelling, writing, reading,

grammar, composition, and preparation for The LATIN Road to English

Grammar. http://www.thephonicsroad.com/

[momofabcd]

I posted a similar thread a few weeks ago. I just pulled my ds (8) out of a christian school because he was falling behind in 3rd grade. From ElizabethB's response, I decided to go ahead and use the Webster's Speller. I already own Abeka's Handbook for Reading and CLP's Webster's Reading Handbook. Both are supposedly based on Webster's Speller but are completely watered down and nothing close to the original. I have now been using Webster's speller with ds for a couple weeks. We've been working our way through the syllabary, and I've already found weaknesses in his reading. I am also using All About Spelling which is Orton-Gillingham based. Ds is doing really well so far and catching on quickly. Hopefully ElizabethB will chime in again, but I'd encourage you to research Webster's Speller a little more. Although it has only been a couple weeks, I am having great success with it, and I'm finding it very easy to use.

Oh, I just remembered one more thing. Webster's way of teaching reading teaches all the sounds of the each phonogram before the syllabary is begun, at least that's what I gathered from the introduction. It's a lot like Orton-Gillingham's method in that respect. It's really quite complete.

FYI

Go to www.verticalphonics.com and scroll down the left side until you see "more phonics methods" It explains all the different ways of teaching phonics w/ pros and cons. Of course it is biased toward vertical phonics.

Edited February 6, 2009 by momofabcd

[katemary63]

.

Hmmmm, I taught my daughter to read with Abeka phonics using it from K to 2nd grade. We did the ba, be, bi, bo, bu thing. I think the reason it worked is that it is the progression of understanding. She was never confused when rules for long vowels sounds were introduced. Her understanding progressed from simple to more complex. She is an outstanding reader and just tested at grade level 5.5 at age 7. Circling "special sounds" and "clue words" helped her greatly. She is a excellent speller also, which I attribute to Abeka. I think Abeka's phonics program is excellent. At least I know it is for some children.

 

I have recently reviewed some of BJU phonics materials and was surprised at how different it was then Abeka, definitely 2 very different approaches

[Lovedtodeath]

One difference between a spaulding based method (WRTR, SWR) and an OG based method (Alphaphonics, AAS, HTTS) is the order in which phonograms are introduced. They all start off with "vertical phonics" I believe, but WRTR and SWR tend to introduce them in order of when they will come up with reading, and more of them all at once, and some children do not do as well because so much is thrown at them. OG based programs are more geared toward spelling rules, and not as confusing for some kids. I am not expaining it well, but you could take a look at their Scope and Sequence and see if you think one way would work better for your son.

[Lovedtodeath]

.

Circling "special sounds" and "clue words" helped her greatly. She is a excellent speller also, which I attribute to Abeka. I think Abeka's phonics program is excellent. At least I know it is for some children.

 

Oh yes. One more thing. Spaulding programs have children mark words, underlining phonograms, marking sounds, etc. OG does not do this. They both use clue words.

[razorbackmama]

OK now that I have everyone in bed and I have spent my entire day reading about phonics, let me try to talk through this.

 

First of all, I told my dh about the "Why Johnny Doesn't Like to Read" article, and he is totally convinced this is him. He wasn't taught phonics, and he does not like reading at all. He DOES (he has to read the Code of Federal Regulations all the time:blink: and he has a doctorate), but it has ALWAYS been very draining for him. He has to be EXTREMELY interested in a topic for him to actually pick up a book and read it. Reading is not pleasurable to him AT ALL.

 

That said...is there any hope for him?

 

Ds1 is almost 12. He was mostly taught to read with BJU. He seems to decode fairly well, but his reading comprehension is pretty poor. However, I do think he has some language processing issues because his VERBAL comprehension is poor at times. (Or he could just be an 11yo boy ROFLOL.) I do know that I cannot count on him to read something for history or whatever on his own and actually GET something out of it. The only exception would be science, but that may be because he's very interested in marine biology, and that's what he's reading about. But he does still struggle with understanding some of that sometimes. He is an OK speller. Not super but not horrid. He does misspell words that should be really easy for him, for example, a short-vowel word with a suffix such as pinning...he'll sometimes spell it pining.:confused:

 

Ds2 is 10.5. He was taught to read using BJU as well. He is the one I've mentioned earlier in the thread. Due to BJU's method which is heavy on context, I think he has LEARNED sight words rather than phonics. And sometimes the word he reads insead of the word that is printed doesn't even fit the context! When he reads aloud, often his sentences don't make a lick of sense. No wonder the kid doesn't like to read...the stories he's "reading" don't make any sense to him!:banghead:He seems to be a natural speller

 

Dd1 is 8.5. She reads OK...I'd say on grade level??????? She learned with BJU. Her spelling.....HOLY COW. I think it has improved after switching from BJU spelling to Sequential Spelling, but she still comes up with some doozies. LOL

 

Ds 3 is almost 7, and he started out with BJU, but it just SORT of started to work, and then we ended up switching. (Other reasons...not because of the reading thing, which I didn't even realize until today.) None of my others learned to read until 7-7.5, so I haven't been sweating it. I startd using OPG with him and we quit. Blech LOL. I have been using 100 EZ Lessons with him, and he is REALLY doing well. He is actually sounding out words from left to right!!! Just like my older kids, he had a tendency to look at the end of the words sometimes and try to start the word with the end sound. "Is" has been a particularly hard word for them all. They would look at it and say, "ssssss" to try to sound it out. Well today it hit me - that's because BJU taught them to start at the END of the syllable to figure out what sort of vowel sound it will have. That does have SOME merit, but combining it with the whole word family approach where the child will read "at" and then "cat mat rat sat" - they aren't really sounding out anything - they are just glancing at the beginning letter and changing the word a bit. AND combine that with BJU's emphasis on putting a word in a sentence to give the child context...my kids were learning sight words rather than phonics. For example, they SAY to NOT just read the words in a list. If there IS a list, I was to make up a sentence. So if the word was "cat," I was to say, "We have a pet...." and the child was supposed to "read" "cat." AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

 

OK so anyway...he's still in the process of relearning how to read from the FRONT of the words, but it's going well. He's up to lesson 26.

 

My 4.5yo is DYING to learn to read, and I've been going through 100 EZ Lessons as well. I think she is on lesson 13 or 14??? She is doing well...way better than any of my other kids did at this age. (But I think her intelligence is higher overall than theirs. They aren't dumb by any means, but she is VERY bright.)

 

SO. Here is where we are. My questions:

 

1. Would you recommend staying with 100 EZ Lessons for the littles since it teaches how to sound out the word from the front? Then move to Webster's Speller? And then...????

 

2. And for that whatever "then" program...do you just start at the beginning and work through it? Where do you start when they already know how to read?

 

3. I'm willing to look more at SWR, but honestly it sounds like something I don't even physically have enough hours in the day for! And what would I do with my little one who wants to read so badly but I'm sure isn't ready for all of that.:confused:

 

4. Does anyone know how Christian Light teaches? I know they teach "front end" phonics...does anyone know if they use the short vowels or the long vowels for ba, be, bi, bo, bu, by? We've been using their reading for the older 3, and I thought maybe I could just have the 6yo use their Learning to Read program?:confused:

 

5. SHOULD I even have a reading program for them?:confused:

 

6. Since my whole goal is to encourage them to love (or at least tolerate;) ) reading, and they aren't USED to enjoying reading, should I assign them a certain amount of reading every day so they can realize that "oh, this isn't as hard as it used to be?" At what point would I do that (if I do)? Or should I just wait for them to pick up the books on their own?

 

7. In the vein of #5 and #6, so I wouldn't practice reading stories with them at all? Bob Books, Pathway readers, library books, etc.? When would I stop limiting them (if I do limit them)?

 

That may be all my questions for now....

 

Thanks so much everyone!:D

[razorbackmama]

Questions about the OG stuff...is it all so touchy-feely? (LOL) My kids and I hate all that sort of thing...would it be necessary? We all just like something we can get out and DO...not something with a bunch of stuff with it, if that makes sense.

[Lovedtodeath]

The touchy feely stuff is for pre-writing, tracing and writing letters with your fingers, like HWT, it isn't necessary for reading.

 

Honestly, MO? With as many kids as you have, and as many issues as you have... All About Spelling would probably be great. You could use it for all of them.

[Amber in AUS]

Wow, wow!!

 

I have not read thru the entire thread just the first post and this last page. My .02c .....

 

Keep going with 100EZ for the littles it really is a good program. At about lesson 50 or so i added in ETC book 1 and around lesson 70 i added Websters. My DD is almost finished 100EZ and she is reading at almost a 3rd grade level. We are just moving on to ETC 2 now and have just reached 2 syllable words in Websters.

 

I would think you would need to look to Websters or AAS (or something similar) to remediate the older ones. I would also have them read aloud to you every day when you can sit with them and make sure they are actually reading the words correctly.

[razorbackmama]

The touchy feely stuff is for pre-writing, tracing and writing letters with your fingers, like HWT, it isn't necessary for reading.

 

Honestly, MO? With as many kids as you have, and as many issues as you have... All About Spelling would probably be great. You could use it for all of them.

 

Oh LOL we don't do anything except write with HWT.:lol:

 

I looked at AAS back when I was looking at spelling programs, but 2 things scared me away: the tiles (my kids would hate them, I'm pretty sure), and I was told it would take about 15 minutes to do with each child. I spend 30 minutes TOTAL with them one-on-one, and that has to cover math, writing, etc. Right now we're using Sequential Spelling, which I'm able to do with all 3 of the olders together. That is awesome, but I know it's not the be-all-end-all. What's more important is that they read/spell well. But yikes!

 

Would I be able to use AAS for reading instruction too?

[razorbackmama]

I swear I feel like I have never homeschooled a day in my life!:lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

Would I be able to use AAS for reading instruction too?

 

Yes. I was wondering if they could do it together.

[razorbackmama]

Yes. I was wondering if they could do it together.

 

 

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! How would I go about doing that? Just have them take turns or something?

[Lovedtodeath]

Maybe use whiteboards instead of the tiles, and have dividers so that they can't see what the other is doing? Do the teaching part as a group, then have them take turns with you alone... Maybe someone who has actually used AAS will chime in.:tongue_smilie:

[razorbackmama]

Also, how would I use AAS for reading? I'm TOTALLY foreign to the whole "spell first then read" sort of method. I'm used to the exact opposite.

 

Would I write some of the practice spelling words down and have them read them? Help.