Delayed Academics: Do You Follow? Even A Little?

[prairiegirl]

Maria, Mother Tongue is an early 20th century grammar book. One of the authors is Kittredge. It reminds me of FLL. It is very gentle. There are opportunities for narration, poetry recitation, picture study as well as the mechanics of grammar. There are also lessons on writing as well. Many hs'ers use this book for gr. 3 and 4. I am skipping many of the lessons and just picking out the ones that we need work on. MT II is a bit more structured, at least that is my understanding, I haven't seen it yet.

 

You can download it at GoogleBooks.

[VanessaS]

I'm still not quite sure what "delayed academics" means for such young children. Does it mean no chess, dominoes, board games, or mazes? No coloring books or dot-to-dot pages? No helping Mommy bake by measuring out the flour? No arts and crafts? No learning about plants while planting a garden? No visits to the Smithsonian? No writing letters and birthday cards to Grandma? No storytime?

 

Or does it just mean that you don't teach them to read and do algebra? If you are relatively active with your children they could end up being very well-educated without teaching them to read. I think delayed academics could work if people don't take it as an excuse to do NOTHING with their children. The point of a classical education is to teach them to think, and reading is only a part of that.

 

But, to tell you the truth, I taught myself to read so the whole delayed-reading-thing wouldn't even have worked with me. On the other hand I had a cousin who came to live with us one summer when he was in 4th grade, who could not even write his own name properly or read a simple book (despite "academic" pre-, kinder-, and elementary schools). That summer my dad sat down and taught him to read. He was making straight-As the next year and until he graduated from high school. We are both well-adjusted, productive members of society now. And my cousin worships my father, needless to say. So I've seen extreme examples of both, and they both had happy endings.

 

I think the most important thing (here come my AP-principles again) is to tailor the education to suit the needs of the children and not to get caught up in age-group-itis. If we can teach our children to read, write, and add fluently by the time they are 16 we have achieved more than many schools do. The amount of adult functional illiteracy in America is not caused by delayed academics but rather by poor teaching and a literacy-indifferent household, IMHO.

 

My DD is completely non-academic now (I can barely interest her in storytime or coloring) whereas my DS is a total academic and I have to sometimes peel him away from his math workbooks (he's doing K-1 math sitting next to me right now) and tell him to "Go play!" because he'd spend all day writing, reading, and puzzling if I let him. Each kid is different.

Edited February 6, 2009 by VanessaS

[Karen sn]

Oh, and I have to say, your second link is just about criminal in its dishonesty. "Today, in contrast, the most arduous efforts of our public schools cannot produce high school graduates who can compare favorably in knowledge and skills with the 8th grade graduates of 1900." Not even CLOSE. In 1900, arithmetic was the first course taught in a college mathematics program. Grammar was also taught in college--grammar that we now teach in middle school. Chemistry, biology, and physics in regular high school courses are more sophisticated than introductory college courses a century ago. Not even has history suffered--we do a terrible job of teaching students history now, granted, but we did a worse job then.

 

I wouldn't trust anyone who starts out by lying--and this website absolutely does.

 

Reya, I have to politely disagree with you on this.

The fact that I have a few old textbooks and the fact that I have seen the busy work garbage passed out in schools today is all the evidence I need to know that we are shortchanging our kids with useless information and test taking skills while scarificing critical thinking and true knowledge.

 

In their rush for a good grade on a standardized test, our school systems have lost the 3 R's. And I am so sorry, but you ain't going nowhere without them! (Yes I understand that I use bad grammar at times for emphasis).

 

I have known children who were expected to know and appy formulas which require division - yet they didn't know how to divide and not only did they not know their multiplication facts - they didn't understand them as well!!!

 

The cashiers at the store can not count back change without a machine to tell them how much to give. I can pretty much guarantee that back in the day you had to know how to do this in order to be a clerk!

 

Maybe you live in some fantastic school district in a state that doesn't cut funding and scoffs at teaching 6 months for one silly test, but everything I have seen in our public school system (and even in some private) bemoans the fact that our kids are being taught from a "dumbed down" academic program.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Karen sn

[Karen sn]

In a word: no. We're very AP so I feel that learning in the young ages should be child-led. And my 3 yo really wants to learn phonics and play Sudoku. Really. I actually shamelessly use learning as a treat. For example, today I told him if he cleaned up his playroom we would work on number patterns together. He cleaned like a madman! LOL!

 

I do not like you! ;-)

Completely said in jest because I am jealous.

[St. Theophan Academy]

I would probably say we delay to some degree - in that I really spend the K year doing very little beyond teaching sounds if they want to, and work on counting and number recognition - and of course read aloud lots and lots - we follow much of LCC - and so I follow a lot of the reading recommendations for K & 1st grade, but I don't consider what we do to be "formal" academics. With my first child I taught reading and started with Saxon Math in K (hated that, will never pick that book up again!), by the time number two came around, we really did not do reading until 1st grade - with number 3 (will be 5 this year) I am waiting to see what she is ready for. I will not delay her reading if she wants to - but I do not have any kind of formal plans for her - she will listen in on the other ones readings - and we will do fun activities - but nothing formal.

[Rhondabee]

We were Seventh-Day Adventists when my boys were little, and I followed The Moore Foundation's advice for my oldest's Kindergarten and the little bit of 1st grade that I tried. (I even had Ruth Beechik as my "telephone advisor".)

 

(big sigh!)

 

If I could have one moment in time to have a re-do, it would *so* be the moment when my oldest was 4yo, and I was standing in the middle of a very small, very crowded homeschool store completely overwhelmed at all the possibilities. My df (actually, an unschooler) had told me to ask about "Classical education", and the store owner showed me a huge carousel of 20+ books - one of which was the Well-Trained Mind. I'm pretty sure he pointed it out, because I *almost* got it. But, I was too ignorant to know how such a tome could help me teach *Kindergarten*. (And, my 2yo was beginning to chew the books - LOL!)

 

Fast forward in time...

 

I pulled my ds out of public school 1/2 way through his 5th grade year, and he had so many gaps. Gaps that started because I was told not to do phonics or handwriting or math with him or I would "ruin" my child. Gaps that grew deeper and wider year after year. I cannot tell you (OP) how much more difficult the past 3 years of homeschooling have been because my ds did not have a strong academic foundation. (further compounded by the fact that as 7th-Day Adventists, the Moore's did not approve of "fiction").

 

To each his own, but I will always regret the pain I have caused my child because I did not lead him gradually and slowly. Knowing what I know now, I would have rather done straight ABeka than to have followed the Moore Foundation plan, though I admit we had a lot of fun doing it!

[Haiku]

To me, the main point of homeschooling is to follow my kids' lead, so what I do might look different with each kid. I haven't, however, set out to avoid academics, and with the kids I have, I don't really see how it would be possible anyway. They want to know EVERYTHING. We do minimal amounts of "seat work" (10-15 minutes per day of ETC and WWE [first grader only for WWE]) and spend the rest of our time reading reading reading and enjoying math and science at a leisurely pace.

 

I am not one of the "teach your baby to read" adherents (not by a long shot) and I didn't do K with my now-first-grader (I do K with my K-er because he wants to do what his sister is doing) but I certainly don't think five/six is too early to begin learning basic skills in a somewhat structured format. I don't really believe in blanket statements that kids should be held off on certain academics for certain reasons. I believe in watching my own kids and following their readiness signs.

 

Tara

[Cheryl in NM]

Per the conversation that was started here I thought I would bring up the idea of delayed academics.I do not wish to discuss whether or not you agree with the idea, but to see how many people follow this approach to some degree or not?

 

I've been using this approach with Math and Grammar, particularly, and it has been a great relief and also joy to us. Relief of not feel the pressure of being "behind" in math, relief at knowing my dd(11) will still "get it" when she needs to, and joy at re-discovering math and grammar in a new way.

 

What do you do? What have you found that works for you? Why? or Why not?

 

Here's what we did:

 

READING: I started trying to teach ds to read at 4. We struggled for a year and a half and tried about 3 programs. The lessons just brought frustration and tears, partly because of my ineptitudes as a parent and teacher. So I decided to let it all go. Basically, I gave up and decided that he'd learn to read eventually. The biggest problem for me was selfish-I was embarrased. I thought homeschooling meant I would be the best teacher in the world and ds would excel above all ps students. Boy did I have my priorities wrong! I still read to him. When he was about 7 I noticed him started to read billboards and asking for help with street signs. So I bought some BOB books, which of course he was too old for and hated. I tried using Pathway readers, but again, he was too old for the subject matter he was reading. One of his friends was ahead of him in the reading department and that spurred his interest. His friend was reading Captain Underpants. So that's what he learned to read. It was still awhile before he'd read anything without comics, but then he switched to Hank the Cowdog. His reading was entirely self-led. Now, he's a voracious reader. He spends all his money on books and owns more than I do and I've always been a reader. I think God used that time to help me readjust my priorities and learn to trust Him.

 

MATH: I started with Singapore and just couldn't figure out how to teach it and ds just didn't get it; he was 5. We switched to Saxon 2, because, after all MY child would be ahead of the ps AND excel in his knowledge! Again, my selfishness and vanity reared it's ugly head. He absolutely HATED Saxon. Of course, I read every word and made him do every little tiny thing in the book. So I decided to take a break from math because, again, I was frustrated and didn't know what to do. I ended up buying workbooks from Barnes and Noble over the next several years and fighting our way through them. When 5th grade came around last year I was really noticing ds's holes in his math. I was trying to use Saxon again, which he liked this time, at least as much as any other math we'd been doing. Well, after crying on dh's shoulder, dh suggested we scrap the books for now and just focus on basic math. So I put that expensive Saxon aside and slowed down. I found free worksheets online and made some of my own. We only spent a few minutes a day on math, instead of the 1-2 hours Saxon was taking us. This time, instead of throwing up my hands and giving up; I worked through it. I felt better and ds was learning so he was feeling better. You see, he had realized that he didn't know as much as his peers and even some kids younger than him. So, while he didn't like it, he worked diligently, most of the time, to learn his basic math facts. We did it the old fashioned way, drill and timed tests. It's the only thing that really worked for ds. He is now 12, in 6th grade, but only on Saxon 6/5. But, I just gave him the Saxon placement test and he only missed 3 on the 6/5 portion of the test. He didn't know how to do almost half of the 7/6 portion so we'll finish out 6/5, which will introduce those items enough that he'll probably test out of 7/6. We'll see. If he needs 7/6 we'll do it, otherwise, we'll skip to 8/7.

 

Right now, ds reads at a high school level and is about a year behind the psers in math. That's not too bad since he didn't start reading until 7 and didn't learn his basic math facts until he was 10.

 

I say, go with your child's capabilities. My friend's son, 5, is reading a little, but has finished the 1st grade Singapore math. She didn't push to do anything. He'd go get the books and start working.

 

Anyway, I learned that this is not about me and my level of embarassment regarding the academic level of my child. I learned that sometimes children are not ready to learn on the ps schedule, which was designed to be repeated every year anyway, gradually gaining difficulty. I also learned that the ps schedule is such that it is to teach a bunch of kids a certain amount in a certian timeframe. Ps does not teach children to love learning and to search out knowledge. That should be the main goal of education. That's not to say that a child can't be productive in ps, but I think that success depends a great deal on the parents.

 

So basically, I learned to place this all in God's hands and to evaluate our very specific situation. We've had great success since I quit comparing ds to everyone else and where he "should" be. Of course, that said, I try to keep him as close to the proper ps grade just in case, God forbid, something to happen to me and he has to go to ps.

 

I know this is really long and for those of you who read all the way through I hope it helped. If not, sorry, but it was cathartic for me!:D

[kalanamak]

When I'm in doubt, I think of my education. We are heads, shoulders, and feet ahead of what I was doing in first grade, so I'm trying not to sweat the fact he isn't ready for prep school.

 

As a first time parent, the thing I've found interesting is a tendency to think that because this just-a-toddler-a-minute-ago can be SO logical and detailed and able to mimic very grown up behavior, he can do anything an unexposed adult can do. He can't. His brain is still Swiss cheese, and those holes are very slow to fill in.

[LivingUnderGrace]

I would not say that we delay academics, I would say we match them to our children's developmentally appropriate ages. :001_smile:

We do follow CM's principles/ideas.

 

Academics begin at age 6 (manipulative math, reading lessons, spelling/phonics, and beginning copywork)

 

Begin formal grammar at age 9 or10

Begin dictation around age 9 or 10

Begin written narration around age 10

[Karen sn]

Well written!

[Tree House Academy]

No. I go at my kids level - advanced in some areas, behind in some areas, right on the mark in most places. But I do not purposefully delay academics.

[Maria/ME]

Really appreciating all the comments! And knowing what everyone is using...what works, what doesn't.

 

Cheryl in NM....I couldn't not have said it better....the whole idea of wanting to be the perfect homeschooling mom...that my child will be YEARS ahead of public schoolers, of course. Then the learning to trust...comparisons and "shoulds" are so ingrained in us, letting go is such a challenge. I think that sometimes that "letting go" and trusting ourselves and our children is misconstrued as laziness or a "don't teach" attitude, when that is the farthest from the truth! Trust in ourselves...trust in our children...trust to "buck" the trend of what everyone else is doing... You've hit on MY idea of what "delaying" is all about...and probably not everyone's idea...it gets a bit into an unschooling approach. Not entirely, of course, but the mindset of "child led" is the basis for delaying a subject until the child is mentally/emotionally/academically ready. So yes, compared to other kids my daughters age, she has GAPS!! But compared to kids her age, she's way ahead in other areas. She is happy. She is learning at her pace. She'll "catch up" whatever that means to her. (to me "catch up" means that she'll be ready academically to hold down the job of her choice and be a contributing part of society) And she'll do so out of desire to learn. You made some great points in your post!

 

I'm sorry that you had such a negative experience with the Moore program Rhondabee. I am not overly familiar with their program, although using it as a source for description. Given that I don't follow ANY program in it's entirety (grin) I probably wouldn't go very far with it...but the idea of "delaying" until a given child is ready academically or emotionally is one that seems to still work for you by your comment that you regret the pain you cost by not leading your child slowly and gradually.

 

Thanks again for the comments helping me see what everyone else is doing at their own pace...

[Jill- OK]

I tried to hold off with all three kids.

 

I've tried to do it with mine...and now the last one, the four-year-old, is eager to learn to read so that he can begin piano lessons. (I know there are ways to do that without learning to read, but this is our approach).

 

::Sigh::

 

I believe in it, I believe in letting kids have scads of free time and informally directed pursuits...

 

But I'm not going to tell a kid 'no' if they want to learn to read. Or learn to tie their shoes, etc.

 

The best-laid plans, eh? ;-)

[Maria/ME]

 

But I'm not going to tell a kid 'no' if they want to learn to read. Or learn to tie their shoes, etc.

 

 

Exactly!

[Lovedtodeath]

I think the problem with the Moore Formula was waiting to start anything at all until they are 9-12 and then rushing and cramming.

 

Slow and steady works just fine for me. Start early so there is no rush.

[Geo]

I am surprised by some of the posts in the thread. It may be that some of the persons do not really understand the true nature of DA. First, delayed academics is not about refusing to let your child learn anything! It's about rejecting an an arbitrary age for the introduction of any particular, formal learning experience. The premise is that is better to allow a child to ready at his own emotional, physical, spiritual pace.

I have read in Dr. Moore's books that if a child initiates

the learning, then by all means indulge him! What Dr. Moore is warning against is hours and hours of formal instruction that is adult initiated, motivated and sustained. He believes that children are to be allowed to grow in balanced activities of called "Head, Heart and Hands".

#1) Work-which means learning real life responsibilities like pet care, age appropriate chores and the like.

#2) Service- with parents as models: learning to help others...visiting the elderly, community service, etc.

#3) Mind- growing in interests and pursuits that develop the

innate bent of the child, academics are to serve this purpose...not the other way around.

 

Has anyone ever wondered why so many of our children have so many labels for learning disabilities?

Children who struggle with formal schooling have always been with us, before labeling they were just dismissed as "dumb". We know better now, but we still level the problem as with the child. Perhaps it is our practice of early education. I read very recently that many, many children who are diagnosed with dyscalculia (math dyslexia) can be tested several years later and show no signs of it. I am not saying all children with LD's are in this group, but what percentage are? I have a friend (now, 46yo)who couldn't learn to read as a child. Her school (and parents) gave her up as hopeless after 6th grade. She learned, unaided, at 14...mysterious, eh? Many, many children are ready for school at an earlier age...that doesn't mean ALL are. Public schools and homeschools alike need to acknowledge that fact. Oh yeah, and nowhere in the delayed academics philosophy are kids pressured to rush "catch up"...that would be the insecurity of the parents. Kids who start much later have more developed and mature mental processes and tend to naturally grow in leaps and bounds not inch by inch like their younger friends in Kindergarten/1st grade.

 

Geo

Edited March 18, 2009 by Geo

[Targhee]

One of the things that got me started seriously thinking about homeschooling *is* the ability to delay one subject until DD is more ready/less burned-out, while still forging ahead more quickly in other areas.

 

I'm new to the discussion, so I don't know if that would necessarily be considered delayed academics or not, but the ability to back off from writing while continuing to progress in math, reading, and other learning is hugely appealing to me.

:iagree:

 

In fact, it's the same subjects here - we need more time to develop in writing, but DD is ready for more in those other areas. This for me is simply working at the child's pace. I wouldn't know what her pace was unless we tried, though. Rather than bulldoze ahead, or hold off unnecessarily, we press on with what we can and gently lead in what needs help.

[Targhee]

I think the problem with the Moore Formula was waiting to start anything at all until they are 9-12 and then rushing and cramming.

 

Slow and steady works just fine for me. Start early so there is no rush.

 

 

I think slow and steady is good as well. I also think Moore argues that the student will be more receptive/mature and able to grasp the concepts at an older age so it too will be slow and steady. Though I don't necessarily agree with his ideas, at least not all of them.

 

I do diverge from WTM in some respects to a more "Moore-ish" approach. I do not think that science facts (like covering the phyla in the animal kingdom) are necessary in the grammar stage (especially since much of this is not fact, it is scientific categorization, and changes as we learn and see things differently). I also don't think the history cycle needs repeating three times. I think including history in the grammar years is important, but I think they'll "get it" better when they're older and not be "behind" - this is the time for kids to be kids. Check out bugs under rocks, read about an interesting figure in history, and nurture the learner to become someone who can learn own their own and not just be a vessel to be filled.

[ajjkt]

nope. I keep it appropriate for each child but I am in no way a delayed academics person.

 

:iagree:

 

That said, I started my first two at 5. I plan on starting my third at 6 or 7 (due to delayed language secondary to dyspraxia). As long as my baby is a perfectly normal child h will probably start at 6ish

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think the problem with the Moore Formula was waiting to start anything at all until they are 9-12 and then rushing and cramming.

 

Except it doesn't work that way.

 

First, kids are exposed to information, skills, etc all the time. You don't lock them in the closet til their 10. LOL

Second, so you delay formal academics saving yourself and kid all the issues of formal academics with young children who developmentally have more important things to be doing.

Third, then you get kids who are ready for the learning so can pick it up more easily, quickly, and can put it all together as kids that age can.

 

Really, I think this thread is full of misconception. Obviously I believe in delaying formal academics so I also have a bias, but....

 

It just doesn't mean refusing to give skills or tools to a kid that wants it.

People that delay rarely, if ever, have any sort of cramming going on (any more than any other jr high or high school student would).

A kid can be very advanced (my daughter started reading chapter books just after turning 3 and started algebra at 7) and still benefit from this philosophy.

And it didn't hurt my developmentally delayed, LD kiddo either (who, at 14 next month, is mostly on grade level despite that he wasn't expected to get to half this level EVER).

 

Anyway, I don't think most people can be convinced of how much better it truly is (imo). And I think it's okay that that is so. I think we all research things and make the best decisions we can for our family (you should have seen my reaction the first time I read TWTM!). And for the most part, the kids turn out okay regardless :)

[Christine]

Per the conversation that was started here I thought I would bring up the idea of delayed academics.I do not wish to discuss whether or not you agree with the idea, but to see how many people follow this approach to some degree or not?

 

Without reading the following posts, and just skimming the linked posts. . .

 

Currently, my answer would be "Yes, I do practice 'delayed academics'."

 

And, maybe "delayed" isn't as apt a term as "relaxed".

 

My older two kids were not so fortunate -- I pushed them early and hard. My eldest did okay with that, my 2nd. . .well, he taught me a thing or two about the need to relax. ;) (He did not learn to read till age 9, regardless of the endless drilling we did, and then he took off. But, then there were the years of trying to deal with his self-esteem issues that resulted from his "late" reading.)

 

My younger two are 7 and 6 and we are just starting their road to reading. We take math slowly. We do a little bit every day, and it goes well -- no grumbling, they aren't pokey, and they actual enjoy school.

 

I don't follow a particular, ummm. . .idea(?) of later learning. I just create a flow that my children can follow. (Does that make sense? I don't "go with the flow". . .they do. I challenge them daily to try something new, as opposed to discovering what they already learned.)

[Karen sn]

Kids who start much later have more developed and mature mental processes and tend to naturally grow in leaps and bounds not inch by inch like their younger friends in Kindergarten/1st grade.

 

Geo

 

Thank you!!!!

[Karen sn]

 

What I would really like to know also is WHAT subjects particularly are you 'delaying' and what works for your family during and at the conclusion of this delay. For example, my daughter delayed in reading. After this delay we found OPGR didn't work for us. She found it "too babyish" and we went with something else. When 'delaying' a particular topic, often the 'entry level' textbook/workbook for the delayed subject is not age appropriate for the child. What works for you and why? Math is another example, we are starting to directly "hit" math a bit harder now....I'm struggling finding something that really "clicks" with my daughter in terms of age and level appropriate.

 

I'd really like to have input on this aspect!

 

Maria - sometimes I just think that there ARE NO textbooks for the older child.

What I did was come up with a list of things we needed to cover before Life of Fred. And I love this site for it's worksheets:

http://www.superteacherworksheets.com/

and this site for some basics:

http://www.themathpage.com/ARITH/arithmetic.htm

[Maria/ME]

I want to thank Geo for jumping in and reviving this topic and giving a great explanation of DA! I should've had you start this thread for me!!

 

Karen, thanks again for the links. We are working more "formally" on math right now so the math site was very welcome!

[Geo]

Our sixth child (the youngest) is the first one to delay beyond 6 years. I had one other child, #2, a boy) who moved at a little slower pace than the others. He is actually the only "intellectual" of the bunch. He (now 26yo) is an incredibly avid reader who reads meaty books for pleasure, albeit, dictionary in hand. Dostoyevsky was his favorite at 14. He did not read until 8yo. Our youngest, 7yods, is really not ready AT ALL. I have tried working with him gently in reading and math and I was beginning to suspect LD's.

He has very poor visual memory for symbols-both letters and numbers, but numbers are worse. We just had to work WAY too hard for results. However, he LOVES to build circuits with his father,using "Snap-Circuits" . He has a large, advanced vocabulary, but is considerably emotionally immature in contrast. I am at present, fully embracing

a delayed approach with him. This is not defeat. Rather, it is a freeing alternative to frustration, labels and failure...not to mention emotional trauma and stress for both of us.

He hasn't even wanted me to read aloud to him until recent months. Now, he LOVES it. At present, I read Henri Fabre's "The Story Book of Science", MOH l, "Hurlbut's Story of the Bible (1904 version), Mrs. Gatty's "Parables From Nature", "The Melendy Family" series by Enright. and many more wonderful, living books. Most of these books were targeted at his 9yo sister- but he has now voluntarily joined us, with his full attention, while working on Legos or K'Nex (of course!). His retention is excellent. I do plan to continue to implement some engaging activities from "Mathematics Their Way." Activities like free exploration, building patterns, sorting and classifying, etc. These are just interesting play to him and he enjoys the benefits of the one-on-one attention that he gets from me. He does know most letter sounds (it seems to come and go) from my earlier "school-ish" attempts. I hope to encourage his retention of those by letting him play with foam letters on the wall during his shower time, but no pressure. If he forgets, heck, we'll just learn them again! I suspect we will probably wait until at least 8yo, but may very well need to

extend it to 9yo or beyond. I've always been supportive of DA, I've just never seen the need for such strict application with my other children. My conscience warns me not to "pick the bud before it blooms" with this one.

 

Geo

Edited March 18, 2009 by Geo
grammar

[Maria/ME]

This is not defeat. Rather, it is a freeing alternative to frustration, labels and failure...not to mention emotional trauma and stress for both of us.

 

Geo

I think you've given a perfect example of DA, within your own situation.

 

I also think that there is some stress involved at not having those Three R's "down" at the same time other kids are, whether they are in public school or homeschooled. And that is partially why I posted this thread. I wanted some solidarity in the fact that we tend towards DA in some areas that I can see my daughter is not ready for. I don't want the stress on either of us of having pushed when she isn't ready. I want the desire to come to her. I suppose, in a sense, it's similar that way to unschooling (Those that follow Moore would probably have reason to disagree with me!)

 

At any rate, there is a great deal of "frustration, lables and failure" and having to be at " a certain point" in learning by a "certain time". For example, if a child isn't reading by age 8, there MUST be something wrong. While I'm all for paying attention and ruling out "real" learning issues, I question the idea that something must be wrong if a child hasn't learned to read by a certain age. I think that our attitude towards what learning is and the time frames of that learning needs to be more fluid. As parents, we put far too much pressure on ourselves and our children. At least I do. And I'm trying to unlearn that, as I realize it's a manufactured idea that comes from schooling. I suppose I'm in the process of de-schooling myself. So many attitudes I have come from methods that were ingrained in school...sigh...

 

Well, whomever is still with me...thanks for listening to that rant!

[Geo]

Maria,

You are right of course, it's hard as a mom to watch their child lag behind others. I think that's why I looked for a thread on the subject; I was looking for comfort and solace in our decision to delay academics. I am also aware that we are better able to comfort others in areas where we have needed comforting ourselves. In a small way, I am grateful that my belief in DA is being tested. I don't like seeing the "herd mentality" lurking in me. Grrr. So this is an opportunity to be free-er than I have had to be in the past. My hope is that I will see the truth be manifest in this situation. Then I think: or not. I guess there is always fear of the unknown, fear that everything may not work out so perfectly. I guess I am just choosing today as my focus...that tomorrow will take care of itself.

 

Geo

[Karen sn]

 

Well, whomever is still with me...thanks for listening to that rant!

 

Rant away.

It's good to read.

 

My own grandmother practically cries because she thinks we are so behind and blah blah blah. What she does not realize is that all these kids who are soooo advanced - really have no understanding of the facts they spit out. I suppose if I had gone the route of public school, my dd would have been diagnosed with a learning label (dyslexia) and then all would be forgiven.

 

A year ago my dd struggled with b and d. We have come a long way. Every night she lays in bed and I hear her giggling while she reads Calvin and Hobbes. I am thrilled.

 

Two nights ago she asked if she could do school!!! She wanted to do some pages out of a store bought math workbook. She wanted to practice adding hundreds on the abacus yesterday. So what if it took us a little longer to get here - she LOVES what we are doing! She retains it - understands it.

 

I would rather walk the path with my kid who is enjoying herself that run the path but have to pull teeth and drag her!

 

Yes. Some kids ARE advanced and ready early - we have a friend who just turned 4 and he is already reading!!! With VERY little provacation! He's also the same kid who at 3 years old (and I mean JUST TURNED THREE) could ride a bike with no training wheels. I sent him some of my dd's unused phonics books - books *she* needed in the 3rd grade!!!

 

I saw a commercial on TV the other day - how to get your baby to read. As in 9 months old!!!!! I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that there will be some negative consequence in learning ability, or brain development because of this overload.

 

I often just know things before they are tested in mainstream science.

Like I've always thought microwaves were really bad. But I didn't know why. Recently I came across a few really good articles that basically supported my distrust of new age cooking.

 

I would be interested to know what it does to your neurons if you are being taught to read as a baby. Not being *read to* - but being TAUGHT TO READ. I can't help but think it stimulates things best left at rest in order to fully develop - maybe the myleination isn't ready and so it harms the cells. I don't know - but I wonder. I think over stimulation may be the same as under stimulation. I've seen babies who were given VERY LITTLE stimulation - it's sad.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I would be interested to know what it does to your neurons if you are being taught to read as a baby. Not being *read to* - but being TAUGHT TO READ. I can't help but think it stimulates things best left at rest in order to fully develop - maybe the myleination isn't ready and so it harms the cells. I don't know - but I wonder. I think over stimulation may be the same as under stimulation. I've seen babies who were given VERY LITTLE stimulation - it's sad.

 

Actually, you can research it. There is PLENTY of information since the original programs have been around for over 30 years now. Teaching babies to read (and other information) isn't new. Look up Glenn Doman. He has a book about the results as well as all the books about how to do it. Their website is iahp.org that you can use for more information also.

[jellogirl]

And for the most part, the kids turn out okay regardless :)

 

:iagree:I am so glad my parents did not force me to be really smart! I remember I loved multiple-digit multiplication when it came along, but I basically stopped math in sixth grade and it took me until tenth grade to finish Algebra 2. But I got it. And in the process, I learned how to teach myself and how to use my time wisely. Those are things I fear children do not learn when their parents spoon-feed them in an attempt to make them smart. In other words? Let kids be kids. But when they are ready to grow up, help them do that.

[Reya]

Do you have a link or reference for this info? I'd love to read more.

 

 

Sorry! I didn't see this until now.

 

I can't give you a link off the top of my head. My specialty is the Victorian/early 20th century, and I have an additional passing interest in history of education from then until the present. I've seen so much info from so many places that nothing stands out as something special anymore.

 

I love old textbooks and peruse them at any opportunity. The level of overall history, geography, science, and math were all pitifully low in, say, 1930 compared to what is taught today. (Retained is another matter entirely....) However, elite schools tended to have some amazing foreign language programs, and Roman history was taught excellently in Latin.

 

There is a REASON so many of the very famous people could go to the best universities at 16, 14, and 12 with only a handful of formal years of study under their belts. There really was that little to learn through high school that a smart person could do the entire curriculum in 4 years, from first enrollment to graduation. The number of very accelerated kids was extremely high for two reasons. First, there was no hang up about differing abilities and no need to make sure everyone reached the finish line at the same time. But second, there was just that much less to learn.

 

Do some poking around in Google books to see the old textbooks and see just how much more is expected of kids today.

 

(That's actually part of the problem for the average student--the amount of detail and scope are EXTREMELY unrealistic for them to retain much of anything. A much narrower scope would serve most kids much better than the kitchen-sink history and science courses we have now. Honors is another matter, of course.)

[WTMindy]

Not at all. :-) My kids were both early readers and were eager learners and I wanted to make hay while the sun shone. :-)

[Kelli in TN]

I would not say that we delay academics, I would say we match them to our children's developmentally appropriate ages.

 

I like this.

 

With six kids you can get a wide variety of development. I have had early starters who were just eager to get on that academic path all the way to a special needs kid who needs to take it slow.

 

I do what's needed.

[Reya]

Reya, I have to politely disagree with you on this.

The fact that I have a few old textbooks and the fact that I have seen the busy work garbage passed out in schools today is all the evidence I need to know that we are shortchanging our kids with useless information and test taking skills while scarificing critical thinking and true knowledge.

 

In their rush for a good grade on a standardized test, our school systems have lost the 3 R's. And I am so sorry, but you ain't going nowhere without them! (Yes I understand that I use bad grammar at times for emphasis).

 

I have known children who were expected to know and appy formulas which require division - yet they didn't know how to divide and not only did they not know their multiplication facts - they didn't understand them as well!!!

 

The cashiers at the store can not count back change without a machine to tell them how much to give. I can pretty much guarantee that back in the day you had to know how to do this in order to be a clerk!

 

Maybe you live in some fantastic school district in a state that doesn't cut funding and scoffs at teaching 6 months for one silly test, but everything I have seen in our public school system (and even in some private) bemoans the fact that our kids are being taught from a "dumbed down" academic program.

 

"Back in the day," a clerk was not the most menial job available, and most people dropped out before high school. (Even in 1950, only about 50% of people were high school graduates--and yes, high school involved a whole lot less back then.) The illiterate ditch-diggers of yesterday are the clerks of today--and not they can read but the vast majority make change just fine, which they never would have been able to do with the educations that people in their percentiles got in the past.

 

The lowest kids and the highest kids both do a lot more a lot better than they did even 30 years ago. When my great-grandfather got his master's degree, less than 5% of the population even had bachelor's. And his bachelor's program was EASIER than those in competitive fields today.

 

We're educating MORE people BETTER than we ever have before, and the US is rising impressively in international competitiveness. I just believe it's nowhere near enough.

 

EVERY. SINGLE. COUNTRY. that does better than we do is testing-driven. I'm so tired of people blaming tests. There is no excellent country that does not have high stakes tests--and the tests are harder and the stakes higher than in the US, which only tests minimums.

 

People like to pretend that the 1950s was a golden age of prosperity, too. That doesn't mean that they aren't delusional. By every measure, people in 1950 were much poorer than today. And by every measure, people were less educated, too. The past gets a halo it does not deserve.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Reya

[Reya]

...

I saw a commercial on TV the other day - how to get your baby to read. As in 9 months old!!!!! I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that there will be some negative consequence in learning ability, or brain development because of this overload.

 

I often just know things before they are tested in mainstream science.

Like I've always thought microwaves were really bad. But I didn't know why. Recently I came across a few really good articles that basically supported my distrust of new age cooking.

...

 

Our exposure to microwaves is exponentially increasing through the use of residential and commercial cooking devices. We have rushed into the use of this new technology heedlessly, not pausing to consider the possibly serious health ramifications that this kind of exposure might cause and ignoring the danger signs in our pursuit of a quick hot meal. We need to critically examine the toll this convenience is taking on society and our families and decide whether we should expose ourselves to the risk.

 

The microwave ovens that we have in our house produce high-energy electromagnetic radiation. Though they are shielded, radiation can leak through poor seals or inferior manufacturing. Radiation causes the ionization of molecules. Not only do high doses result in classic radiation sickness--sterility, hair loss, and even death--but lower doses can have serious consequences, too. Due to damage on the molecular level, white blood cell counts are depressed, leading to increased illness. The likelihood of cancer rises dramatically--free radicals are ionized atoms which damage cells. Birth defects due to damage to the DNA (which is just a very large, complicated molecule) also rise. None of these possible side effects of exposure to microwaves were investigated before the release of this technology. Despite the rising rates of cancer, birth defects, and immune conditions in the past 20 years, few scientists dare to fight both governmental and industrial interests to make these effects public now.

 

One of the most dangerous characteristics of microwaves is their ability to penetrate deep into an object, directly exciting the molecules far from the surface. This ability makes it heat food so fast and so quickly, but it also means that its effects are more severe. One concern is the food itself. Such deeply-penetrating radiation gets trapped inside of food, which people then consume, transferring the radiation to themselves. Another concern is its direct effects on people. The depth of penetration is why microwaves can cause pacemakers to fail. Many people report feeling pressure or headaches while microwaves are running, and these effects can cause chronic problems like migraines in some people.

 

It is hard to escape microwave radiation in modern society even if you keep them from your home. Almost all offices and restaurants have microwave ovens. To people who are highly sensitive, these places become unbearable, and individuals are forced to sometimes dramatically change their lifestyles to avoid exposure. They cannot enjoy a simple meal with their families, and when their employers are unaccommodating, some must even quit their jobs. Microwave radiation sensitivity can be a particular challenge for the poor, as apartment living can be intolerable. I am developing a radiation-free list of restaurants who do not employ a microwave for any purpose and have, upon request, a formal letter requesting employers to remove microwaves from the workplace. Until the dangers are recognized and microwave radiation banned, we have to each do our best to avoid exposure to its harmful effects.

 

---

 

Convincing? I hope not. Because it's utter and complete hokum. (I could throw in some bogus studies showing cancer being linked to electrical lines--because there's eletromagnetic energy there, too.) This is the quality of "science" that so many people latch on to when it supports their own prejudices ("microwaves are bad!"). If you know the first THING about electromagnetic radiation, you could critically examine the claims above and know that they are bogus. But people don't. They read something like what's above and then decide that their headaches are caused by their microwave and ditch it, then they talk themselves into having a headache every time they're in a restaurant and quit their jobs and can even talk themselves into becoming invalids. All because they get swept away with something that matches their gut instinct and has been hit with a science stick.

 

This is the same kind of reasoning that makes people make sacrifices to buy organic foods (the BEST market scam EVER in the history of foods) and to believe that processed foods are bad because they're processed (not because they tend to be cruddy, high-calorie and high-fat recipes in the first place) and to turn up their noses at frozen produce.

 

The same sort of thing occurs when people get all upset about babies doing things that aren't typical. My mother-in-law believes, down to the core, that DD sitting and standing early will cause her to have bowlegs and a hunchback. Because that's what Chinese traditions says, and that's what her gut believes. She lies through her teeth and says "the doctor says so." (Chinese standards of truth are...different...from American standards. Lying is acceptable in China under many more conditions.)

 

Doman's system is bad for babies--not because it causes them brain damage or anything of the sort but because A) it's not going to work with the vast majority of babies worth anything, and it's a huge time sink no matter what, B) for those babies it would work on, there are better ways, and C) sight reading can induce dyslexia.

 

These aren't "gut" reactions. These are real difficulties.

 

The SAME ARGUMENTS against children at one age or another learning whatever have been proposed, in different packaging, for why it's bad to educate women. It's the same culturally-caused gut reaction behind them, too. And it has just as much real justification--hit it with a science stick however you try.

[Reya]

:iagree:I am so glad my parents did not force me to be really smart! I remember I loved multiple-digit multiplication when it came along, but I basically stopped math in sixth grade and it took me until tenth grade to finish Algebra 2. But I got it. And in the process, I learned how to teach myself and how to use my time wisely. Those are things I fear children do not learn when their parents spoon-feed them in an attempt to make them smart. In other words? Let kids be kids. But when they are ready to grow up, help them do that.

 

Can't MAKE kids smart. Kids are however smart they are--and you foster it or waste it.

 

I bet you that my DS is more independent than 95% of homeschooling kids his age. Heck, I bet he's more independent than the average 5th grader.

 

Do whatever's developmentally appropriate for your kids. But don't pretend that everyone behind you is just lazy and everyone ahead is forcing or spoon-feeding.

 

This is why I get so irritated at DA folks. Because reading doesn't click for their kids until 6 or 8 or 10 or 12, anyone else who does it differently is wrong. Under the guise of developmental appropriateness, they promote their own inflexible creed. And woe betide the child who dares show signs of precocity! STAMP IT OUT! DESTROY IT! Because there is NO place for such abilities in their world.

[Kelli in TN]

 

This is the same kind of reasoning that makes people make sacrifices to buy organic foods (the BEST market scam EVER in the history of foods) and to believe that processed foods are bad because they're processed (not because they tend to be cruddy, high-calorie and high-fat recipes in the first place) and to turn up their noses at frozen produce.

:blink:

 

 

(Chinese standards of truth are...different...from American standards. Lying is acceptable in China under many more conditions.)

:001_huh:

[jellogirl]

Can't MAKE kids smart. Kids are however smart they are--and you foster it or waste it.

 

I bet you that my DS is more independent than 95% of homeschooling kids his age. Heck, I bet he's more independent than the average 5th grader.

 

Do whatever's developmentally appropriate for your kids. But don't pretend that everyone behind you is just lazy and everyone ahead is forcing or spoon-feeding.

 

This is why I get so irritated at DA folks. Because reading doesn't click for their kids until 6 or 8 or 10 or 12, anyone else who does it differently is wrong. Under the guise of developmental appropriateness, they promote their own inflexible creed. And woe betide the child who dares show signs of precocity! STAMP IT OUT! DESTROY IT! Because there is NO place for such abilities in their world.

I apologize if I wasn't quite clear. I was precocious; it just didn't come from bookwork. (I made up for it in high school anyway.) Nor am I implying that all parents who challenge their kids are forcing them beyond their limits. But there are some who do, though I have found them a minority. Kids need to be challenged but not forced to learn. Just pointing out that in many circles, classical education is synonymous with unnecessary rigor.

[Reya]

I understood it that in the 1900's, not every child was educated, but the education that was available was much more rigorous. What about something like this test?

 

FWIW, I do not believe that grammar is necessary to teach until around 4th or 5th grade, and I prefer to match skills like learning to read, math and handwriting to the developmental stage my children are at.

 

Jesi

 

 

It's a total fake! :-) It preys on our fears of decline.

 

(I was planning on starting grammar later, but DS needs formal instruction to recognize and use punctuation. Part of the dyslexia.)

[Maria/ME]

 

This is why I get so irritated at DA folks. Because reading doesn't click for their kids until 6 or 8 or 10 or 12, anyone else who does it differently is wrong. Under the guise of developmental appropriateness, they promote their own inflexible creed. And woe betide the child who dares show signs of precocity! STAMP IT OUT! DESTROY IT! Because there is NO place for such abilities in their world.

 

Whoa, sister. I don't think anyone on this thread is touting the above. Maybe, in a general sense, you find above to be true of the proponents of DA, and I"m sorry for that. But I think most posters here are in total agreement with you for the most part.

 

And even if this is true of most people who promote DA, well let them be and do your own thing! If you don't agree with them, forge your own path! Which it sounds like you do!:001_smile:

[Pamela H in Texas]

This is why I get so irritated at DA folks. Because reading doesn't click for their kids until 6 or 8 or 10 or 12, anyone else who does it differently is wrong. Under the guise of developmental appropriateness, they promote their own inflexible creed. And woe betide the child who dares show signs of precocity! STAMP IT OUT! DESTROY IT! Because there is NO place for such abilities in their world.

 

Granted, I don't know everyone, but I don't know ANYONE that subscribes to delayed academic philosophy that believes it inappropriate to treat children as individuals. In fact, generally, they agree more with that than anything.

 

As I stated, I think it was wonderful for both my children. One was very advanced and the other was never expected to pass a mid-elementary level (if he got there). Both have done very well. My 3yo still read chapter books as she pleased and my LD kiddo is on grade level in 8th grade.

 

I do think there are people that push their children, but it's rarely the ones with kids that are advanced several years, ime. But there is NO reason at all to do formal academics just because your 5yr old is on a 6th grade level either. You can. No problem with doing so. Please give her 6th grade work, not first grade work even. But it isn't more necessary because of level.

 

I'm really for whatever works for a family. I think there are some parents who would got NUTS if they didn't do formal schooling regardless of what level their 5yo was working. That would be worse than just schooling them, imo. I think there are some parents that go nuts schooling a child who needs more or different or less though also. It would be nice if they could relax and let Jr do more or different or less.

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay, I want to know if microwaves really are okay, because I have always distrusted them.

 

And how are organic foods nothing but marketing propanganda?

 

PM me if you want... I really am curious.