Have any of you truly turned around attitude/discipline problems in your home?

[bkpan]

Id love to hear your story.

 

I am feeling out-of-control at the moment. 6dc, all still fairly young, and frankly, dh and I are outnumbered. It is not really outright discipline, but the heart that I am concerned about. I can get my dc to mind me - but it is NOT first-time obedience, and I cannot expect them (generally speaking) to do the right thing when we arent around.

 

I realize that maybe my expectations are too high :confused:, but I also know that some large families are able to accomplish this. I realize that it always comes back to me - but what if you are getting really, really, tired of trying to do it RIGHT each day?? I think that I am getting burned out, but it isnt the academics. I enjoy that part. Attitudes and complaining wear me out.

 

I know that many of you struggle with this too. I just thought that I could really benefit from a BTDT story and how you went about winning the hearts of your kids again.

 

Thanks if youve read this far, and if you have any encouraging stories to tell.

 

Kim

[Parrothead]

How old are your kids?

[bkpan]

How old are your kids?

 

The boys are 11, 9, 7, 7, and 18 mos. Our dd is 5yo.

 

So, there is LOTS of energy, noise, etc. and it does not exactly mesh with my fairly quiet, introverted personality :tongue_smilie: I do believe that the Lord is stretching me. But there are just so many days when I feel like one of me just isnt enough, KWIM?

 

Thanks.

[hornblower]

If you're looking for ways to get & hold their hearts:

Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld.

 

The book is avail at major bookstores.

On his website http://www.gordonneufeld.com/ he also sells some videos of workshops and lectures for those who prefer to watch rather than read. The power to parent series is an excellent dvd series.

 

He focuses on attachment & building the bond. This isn't permissive parenting, he's big on parents being leaders. I know I was at a presentation one time where there were a lot of very unschooly/non coercive parenting types and when someone asked a question, he very clearly articulated the way he perceived the problem. He had a slide of a mama duck & the baby ducks walking behind her which he dug out of his presentation & put up and said, "your problem is that you are not in front! Kids are not meant to be in front, they're meant to be following you. Get out there and lead!"

 

There's a lot more of course but I just wanted to put that out as I know some people thought he's a 'wishy washy' guy & he's not at all.

 

The big thing for him is though to build the relationship, understand the child's developmental phases, and THEN work on the behaviours. He thinks focusing on bhvrs is missing the point. With good relationships and a sound understanding of development, bhvr follows - with lots of hiccups of course, because they're kids after all :-)

 

best wishes

[Joanne]

The boys are 11, 9, 7, 7, and 18 mos. Our dd is 5yo.

 

So, there is LOTS of energy, noise, etc. and it does not exactly mesh with my fairly quiet, introverted personality I do believe that the Lord is stretching me. But there are just so many days when I feel like one of me just isnt enough, KWIM?

 

Here's my free advice. Know that I come from a non punitive, non adversarial, relationship building, high expectation place in my parenting. I am also an introvert; one who homeschooled and ran a daycare. Talk about burnout! :confused::tongue_smilie::001_huh:

 

Make a list of your triggers. Common ones:

 

Noise

Frantic activity

sudden movement

clutter

unfinished work

sudden, unsolicited touch

 

Put them in order of effect on *you*. From that list, decide what to modulate and manage first. If you minimize your triggers and the drains on you, you'll automatically have more emotional resources to stay the course with your children. They'll have more of the authentic you and therefore will behave better.

 

Some things that help common triggers:

 

Order, routine, chores.

Routine, scheduled, outside play - in practically any weather.

Designated areas for toys, for loud, for quiet.

A routine; do as much as you can in the same way and in the same order each day.

 

Schedule "Mom time" and make it a priority. If DH can't (or won't) assist, hire someone or barter. It is essential to your success.

 

Practice "yes, ma'am". I'd start with Get Off Your Butt Parenting found on my site, with a simple "do over" when non compliance happens. Do.not.waver.in.you.expectations. If you do, you train them to not "listen".

 

Your 7+ children are capable of much mess. They are also capable of much help. Give them the gift of training them on how to operate in a home of many; insist on an age appropriate level of chores.

 

De-clutter: toys, homeschool stuff, craft stuff, clothes, knick knacks........anything that is an impediment to getting things done or a drain visually.

 

Scale privileges to a minimum until each individual child shows consistent compliance. As they grow in maturity, grant them age appropriate and behaviorally earned leeway; be ready and willing to remove it if they fail.

 

Deliberately interact positively; set a timer if you have to and touch, hug, tousle the hair of each child at some point each hour. Connnecting with them will help *you* have the energy necessary to make and sustain changes; it will help them act better, too!

[bkpan]

If you're looking for ways to get & hold their hearts:

Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld.

 

The book is avail at major bookstores.

On his website http://www.gordonneufeld.com/ he also sells some videos of workshops and lectures for those who prefer to watch rather than read. The power to parent series is an excellent dvd series.

 

He focuses on attachment & building the bond. This isn't permissive parenting, he's big on parents being leaders. I know I was at a presentation one time where there were a lot of very unschooly/non coercive parenting types and when someone asked a question, he very clearly articulated the way he perceived the problem. He had a slide of a mama duck & the baby ducks walking behind her which he dug out of his presentation & put up and said, "your problem is that you are not in front! Kids are not meant to be in front, they're meant to be following you. Get out there and lead!"

 

There's a lot more of course but I just wanted to put that out as I know some people thought he's a 'wishy washy' guy & he's not at all.

 

The big thing for him is though to build the relationship, understand the child's developmental phases, and THEN work on the behaviours. He thinks focusing on bhvrs is missing the point. With good relationships and a sound understanding of development, bhvr follows - with lots of hiccups of course, because they're kids after all :-)

 

best wishes

 

You know, thats funny. I read that book a year or two ago, and I remember thinking how good it was. I have it on my nightstand at the moment from the library, and now I AM going to read it again! Ill look over the website as well. Thank you!

[Garga]

Another vote for Hold on to your Kids. It's in my pile of books I'm currently reading right now. I'm taking notes on it to refer back to later!

 

And I have read raisinggodlytomatoes.com. I don't agree with everything she does but I have implemented some of her ideas and they work. I haven't had to deal with snarky back-talk in over a year now because of some of her techniques. (But read her with a grain of salt. She's a little quirky sometimes.)

[KIN]

I haven't had to deal with snarky back-talk in over a year now because of some of her techniques.

 

What did you do? I'm dealing with this now and am determined to make it stop!

[bkpan]

Here's my free advice. Know that I come from a non punitive, non adversarial, relationship building, high expectation place in my parenting. I am also an introvert; one who homeschooled and ran a daycare. Talk about burnout! :confused::tongue_smilie::001_huh:

 

Make a list of your triggers. Common ones:

 

Noise

Frantic activity

sudden movement

clutter

unfinished work

sudden, unsolicited touch

 

Put them in order of effect on *you*. From that list, decide what to modulate and manage first. If you minimize your triggers and the drains on you, you'll automatically have more emotional resources to stay the course with your children. They'll have more of the authentic you and therefore will behave better.

 

Some things that help common triggers:

 

Order, routine, chores.

Routine, scheduled, outside play - in practically any weather.

Designated areas for toys, for loud, for quiet.

A routine; do as much as you can in the same way and in the same order each day.

 

Schedule "Mom time" and make it a priority. If DH can't (or won't) assist, hire someone or barter. It is essential to your success.

 

Practice "yes, ma'am". I'd start with Get Off Your Butt Parenting found on my site, with a simple "do over" when non compliance happens. Do.not.waver.in.you.expectations. If you do, you train them to not "listen".

 

Your 7+ children are capable of much mess. They are also capable of much help. Give them the gift of training them on how to operate in a home of many; insist on an age appropriate level of chores.

 

De-clutter: toys, homeschool stuff, craft stuff, clothes, knick knacks........anything that is an impediment to getting things done or a drain visually.

 

Scale privileges to a minimum until each individual child shows consistent compliance. As they grow in maturity, grant them age appropriate and behaviorally earned leeway; be ready and willing to remove it if they fail.

 

Deliberately interact positively; set a timer if you have to and touch, hug, tousle the hair of each child at some point each hour. Connnecting with them will help *you* have the energy necessary to make and sustain changes; it will help them act better, too!

 

Wow, Joanne. There is much here to think about! Thank you! I especially connected with the idea of prioritizing the things that especially drain me to tackle first - it makes a lot of sense! I am going to print out your post and take some notes. I think that dc and myself need a couple of days off for mom to read, regroup and ENJOY my kids again. One of my biggest struggles is being too much the idealist. My reality never resembles my ideal, and I can get lost in the negatives and where we fall short.

 

Family life is just so much harder than I thought it would be, when you care so very much. Thanks again!

 

Kim

[Garga]

What did you do? I'm dealing with this now and am determined to make it stop!

 

They have to re-do bad behavior the correct way, over and over again. And I outlast them.

 

Me: Please put that toy down while we're doing math.

ds: Makes snarky comment, tosses toy.

Me: go get the toy, and then put it down gently, and say, "Yes, mom."

ds: gets the toy (this part may require outlasting until ds actually does get the toy) and slams it down on the table and says "Yes, mom" snarkily.

Me: pick up the toy and put it down gently and say, "Yes, mom," nicely.

 

We'll keep doing this until ds has put down the toy and said "yes, mom" nicely. It can take awhile at first. (understatement!)

 

The key is to do this each and every time they get snarky. After you make them re-do their bad behavior like this for awhile, they'll get tired of it and stop being snarky to begin with.

 

To me, this models behavior that we all need to get along in life. I don't see it as making them be fake or hiding their own feelings. I believe it sets the boundaries for what is acceptable in our treatment of other people.

 

If they are not happy with me telling them to put down the toy, I will allow quiet questions or alternatives (Mom, can I put it in my pocket instead?). But they can't speak cruelly to me or be physically aggressive.

[jubilee]

Say Goodbye to Whining, Complaining, and Bad Attitudes...in You and Your Kids by Scott Turansky and Joanne Miller has been another recommended read on this topic. Can anyone compare this one with Hold On to Your Kids? I know the first book is from a Christian perspecitive. I have seen the second recommended also but have not read it.

 

Also, I want to bump this post:O)

 

Thank you!

[KIN]

They have to re-do bad behavior the correct way, over and over again. And I outlast them.

 

Me: Please put that toy down while we're doing math.

ds: Makes snarky comment, tosses toy.

Me: go get the toy, and then put it down gently, and say, "Yes, mom."

ds: gets the toy (this part may require outlasting until ds actually does get the toy) and slams it down on the table and says "Yes, mom" snarkily.

Me: pick up the toy and put it down gently and say, "Yes, mom," nicely.

 

We'll keep doing this until ds has put down the toy and said "yes, mom" nicely. It can take awhile at first. (understatement!)

 

The key is to do this each and every time they get snarky. After you make them re-do their bad behavior like this for awhile, they'll get tired of it and stop being snarky to begin with.

 

To me, this models behavior that we all need to get along in life. I don't see it as making them be fake or hiding their own feelings. I believe it sets the boundaries for what is acceptable in our treatment of other people.

 

If they are not happy with me telling them to put down the toy, I will allow quiet questions or alternatives (Mom, can I put it in my pocket instead?). But they can't speak cruelly to me or be physically aggressive.

 

Thank you, this was helpful! Please tell me what you would do if no throwing toys were involved. If I said "Son, I need to you to concentrate and stop talking to your brothers while I'm working with you." Then he says "Whatever!" Where would you go with that? Repeat my request over and over with saying "I need to hear yes, mom nicely."?

[chickenpatty]

I have six kiddos, too and I know what you mean. I haven't read what the others wrote, but this is what is helping me.

 

Last week, I put a list of rules on our chalkboard & we discussed them. They were things like:

 

clean up after yourself

consider other people's feelings

no leaving the kitchen after meals until the kitchen is cleaned

no hitting, kicking, etc...

no running or shouting in the house

 

Seeing and discussing the rules together seems to put us on the same team. It's doesn't feel like me versus them. We came up with consequences, too, and I have to be sure to carry them out or everything goes to pot.

 

Hang in there!

[Lovedtodeath]

Here's my free advice. Know that I come from a non punitive, non adversarial, relationship building, high expectation place in my parenting.

Joanne, you don't need a disclaimer, your advice works! Especially for the OPs question, reaching the heart, not just getting obediance.

 

Also, I want to bump this post:O)

 

Thank you!

 

So glad you did. I need reminders.

[mamaof2andtwins]

Joanne's post was right on. I can't add more to that.

 

Best wishes,

Jennie

[Garga]

Thank you, this was helpful! Please tell me what you would do if no throwing toys were involved. If I said "Son, I need to you to concentrate and stop talking to your brothers while I'm working with you." Then he says "Whatever!" Where would you go with that? Repeat my request over and over with saying "I need to hear yes, mom nicely."?

 

Yup! That's what I do. I make them give the proper response, without eye rolling, etc. Oh, and it's very important to remain calm throughout the whole exchange.

 

Basically I've been told to teach your kids how to behave the way you'd want an adult to act. If you were teaching an adult class and asked them to do something, the adults wouldn't say, "Whatever" and roll their eyes. They would do what you asked and say "Ok" or something like that.

 

So, you just have your kids do the correct response over and over, until it becomes natural to them--the way it's natural for most adults. (Well, hopefully we don't know adults who say, "Whatever" and roll their eyes when they're in some sort of class. :))

 

(And this is along with the Hold on to your Kids stuff, where you form a close relationship with your kids and pour love on them.)

Edited January 30, 2009 by DustyLizard

[Marylou]

I haven't read this book, but I have heard other moms say that it is great Have a New Kid By Friday by Keven Leman. check it out at www.amazon.com

[Guest janainaz]

I'm still working on my own attitude and discipline problem.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I'm still working on my own attitude and discipline problem.

I am too! Right on sister! (Imagine a high-five smiley.)

[Joanne]

Someone asked about the Turansky and Miller book. I can't compare it to Hold On To Your Kids but I can highly recommend it as a family tool for building honor between family members. I support all their materials I've read (which is a lot).

[CactusPair]

Following the instructions in the book Transforming the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach changed our homelife.

[Moni]

First, monitor and/or remediate

 

Nutrition - eliminate artificials, corn syrup, etc,

Sleep - window of time for silent sleep in the dark (cover the window)

Hydration - water throughout the day

Blood sugar levels (protein snacks)

Physical - exertion throughout the day daily, tired, panting, sweaty

Emotional - do they feel loved and appreciated?

Mental/Social - are they having fun, having down "down time"

 

Once that is in order, then I'd reduce my expectations down to as little as they are actually producing (mood, responsibility, manners wise).

And then, I'd focus on one thing at a time, remedy that (decibel level? Food in the bedrooms? sassy mouth? whatever it is, dirty clothes, toys away?)

And then when that new habit is coming along a bit, I'd add another requirement.....and wait until that second habit is coming along nicely a bit....

and then I'd introduce a third....

and so on and so forth.

 

It can help to stop schooling altogether and get your family dynamics in order first. 90 days no school isn't going to ruin anybody.

 

:seeya:

[angela in ohio]

Our second daughter had severe behavioral issues from the time she was about six to eight years old (it was the phase to end all phases.) She was defiant, defiant, defiant. It took several years of consistently (every. single. time.) making sure there were consequences for her behavior (natural consequences, spanking, etc.) It was exhausting, but it was worth it in the long run.

 

We joke about it now, as she is happy and sweet, but we weren't sure for a while there. :)

[LBC]

Someone asked about the Turansky and Miller book. I can't compare it to Hold On To Your Kids but I can highly recommend it as a family tool for building honor between family members. I support all their materials I've read (which is a lot).

 

Joanne, I just want to say that your website is an amazing resource! I can't believe this is the first time I've noticed it, considering how many of your posts I've read. Based on what I've read on your website so far, I think you'd probably really like Hold on to Your Kids. That book encouraged me to parent from a non-punitive, attachment based point of view, but the articles you have on your website are what I've been looking for as a more practical way to implement Dr. Neufeld's philosophy.

 

I just wanted to say, "Thanks", and encourage others who are reading this thread to take a look at your website.

 

Lori

[Lovedtodeath]

I just wanted to say, "Thanks", and encourage others who are reading this thread to take a look at your website.

 

:iagree:I went from Raising Godly Tomatoes to Joanne's site. It is different than what I have considered positive discipline in the past.

 

 

Just wanted to add a tip: I really struggle with teaching her why things she says are not respectful. The thing that has worked is saying, "I feel.... when you say that to me. Is that how you are trying to make me feel?" (If she says yes she is in for it! ;)) "Then you need to find a different way to say that."

[Catherine]

I don't want to post the details, out of respect for my ds, but it was a nightmare-he was seriously headed for trouble when he was 12-13.

 

I quit my part time job, took a job working nights and weekends only, and changed totally our approach with this child. He was "grounded for life"-never, ever, alone. I did not put it in those terms, but we had found that he was more than willing to violate our trust, sneak around, get into all kinds of trouble.

 

I can say now that things are 90% better. He is still extremely strong willed, risk taking, and not totally, 100% trustworthy. But, things are vastly better.

 

If I could name one huge mistake I made with this child, it was failing to establish myself firmly as an authority when he was small. His bad habits of sneaking and lying were too well established by age 12 when we really made some major changes. Then again, he showed himself in infancy to be extremely strong willed so that made our job harder.

 

In the end, I think things will be OK. His heart is basically in the right place. He has a good mind and knows how much he is loved.

 

Of any of the resources mentioned, I think Hold onto your Kids is the best. It changed my life.

[Ria]

The boys are 11, 9, 7, 7, and 18 mos. Our dd is 5yo.

 

So, there is LOTS of energy, noise, etc. and it does not exactly mesh with my fairly quiet, introverted personality :tongue_smilie: I do believe that the Lord is stretching me. But there are just so many days when I feel like one of me just isnt enough, KWIM?

 

Thanks.

 

Hey, we have similar families! Our boys are 19, 16, 14, 13, and 11; our dd is 19 (our twins are the oldest).

 

My suggestion is divide and conquer. Sit the five oldest down and explain what you expect - obedience, no backtalk or arguing, etc. Explain why this is important to you (it really does help them to understand). If they disobey, they can go somewhere alone for a while.

 

When you ask them to do something, don't just issue a command and expect them to do it. Slow down. Make eye contact. Tell them what you need them to do. Then - this is the important part - ask them to repeat back to you what you asked. Then smile, say okay, and let them do it.

 

Now, any arguing or sibling fighting, at least in our house, meant time away from the family (this seems to really bother kids in large families, so maybe it will work for you). I'd put a child in a room alone (I'd often use my room since it's boring and has no toys, lol) for 30 minutes or so.

 

Just be consistent. You and your dh need to be on the same page here, and must discipline as one.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ria

[jubilee]

Someone asked about the Turansky and Miller book. I can't compare it to Hold On To Your Kids but I can highly recommend it as a family tool for building honor between family members. I support all their materials I've read (which is a lot).

 

 

That was me! Thank you! I need to just order this one:O)