am I pushing him to hard?

[hsmom]

Here is an example of our day. Get up get dressed, eat, do chores, go check the mail, then we have a snack and start school.

 

We start by reviewing his full name in print, his birth date, our phone number, street address, the day of the week and the date. Then we do a couple of pages of ETC, he draws a picture. Then he takes his lunch and break. After which we move on to MUS primer and do 2 pages. Then read through out the day. Later in the afternoon he watches Leap frog letter factory and math circus. He also has the option to play on starfall.com or use his jumpstart programs on the computer. Now this is the ideal day.

 

Here is today we got all the morning stuff done, ETC, the drawing of the picture, and lunch. Well after lunch he is not wanting to do anything. He is goofing off on his counting/math. Like instead of saying 1 2 3 4, he is saying 1 2 8 4 or something like that. He does not want to watch is videos, nor read. He just wants to play today. Well it has been like this a lot lately.

 

So, am I pushing him to hard? I don't feel as if it is too much. Any suggestions? I wanted to bring in some fun science stuff, but with us not getting done what he needs to already I just see that as a waste of money.

[stripe]

Is there a way you could review these things without the workbooks/computer or tv programs? Like counting as you collect leaves outside or the number of birds you see in the trees or keeping "score" of how many bubbles you've blown or something? I think you can do "fun science stuff" (or fun reading/math) without wasting money, and perhaps generate a bit more enthusiasm on his part. And take time to read books aloud to him. There are lots of nice math books and science too; there are some great lists here: http://livingmath.net/

[Tonia]

I'm assuming you mean the 4 yo :D

 

Honestly? I'd drop the work. I ask dd if she wants to do school and if she says no then we skip it (she's 5 btw). I wouldn't push the 4 yo to do any work. It's unproductive if they don't feel like doing it and a waste of your time and energy to get frustrated over it ;). The books will still be there when he's ready for them. :001_smile:

 

Edited to add: Think of his playtime as his "school" - it's building his imagination. And I would still stick to the routine. It's important to have a routine for the day, but I wouldn't push the schoolwork. Or (I'm editing again!) you could ask him what he wants to do once you sit down to do school. Maybe he would like to do math first thing (his mind might be more focused in the morning). Just tossing out an idea.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Tonia

[Tabrett]

I don't think you are pushing too hard, just trying to stick to a schedule that isn't working. My 5yo is done after lunch. She is brain fried!!. I try to get all her work done before lunch. If I know we won't be able to finish school before lunch, I save all the read alouds for after lunch so all she has to do is listen.

I would rotate the time I do subjects. Do math first on certain days. Also, could you do you chores after lunch so you can spend that time doing school with you dc?

I think this is more of a scheduling problem than pushing too hard.

[Jen in PA]

Last year dd was 4, and I didn't require much time at the table, but we covered a ton of material orally. Maybe some of what you open with (the memory stuff), and some skip counting could be done while taking a walk or doing chores, just to shave a few minutes off of seatwork?

[Deece in MN]

I agree with the suggestions that have already been given. I would also consider dropping the seat work to 2-3 days a week. On the other days try to find ways to cover the material in a more natural way.

At 4 it is more about exposure. The memory work you do is great. Continue reading, reading and more reading to him (you or older siblings can do this). Have him count while bouncing a ball or doing jumping jacks or when handing out snacks or whatever. Find ways to incorporate learning naturally.

Seat work is not really necessary at this age, but if you feel it is important find ways to work it in without making it a stress point for you and your ds. Also, be willing to be flexible.

 

ETA: I just reread your post. Honestly, I do think it may be a bit much for a 4 year old. Try dropping the ETC and MUS to 1 page a day for a while (if these are really important to you to do). I know as an adult it doesn't seem like much, but at 4 it is a lot of new information to take in. Give him a break when he needs it and come back to things the next day or a few days later. He may just need time to absorb and assimilate all the new information.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Deece in MN

[...................]

yes. You are pushing too hard.

 

My 5 year old preschooler doesn't do any school or formal lessons except one Rod and Staff preschool page and one Kumon Numbers or Letters page each day. 10 minutes, tops. That's it.

 

She is more than prepared for Kindergarten next year. She can write all her letters, both upper and lower case, with a few here and there that need some work. She is well on her way to writing numbers 1-10, and knows all the sounds of her phonics letters. She is starting to write words all on her own and read them too. She wrote STOP the other day all by herself, for fun.

 

She has an amazing vocabulary and knows all the childhood fables, all of the basic American stories, tall tales, and legends such as Robin Hood. She has listened to and enjoyed Lassie, All of a Kind Family, American Girl books, the Hobbit and The Chronicles of Narnia. She has made her own story books about them and drew pictures.

 

But you know what she usually does? She plays in the dirt, plays play doh, makes messes with water, and sidewalk chalk, builds forts, builds with blocks, "washes" pretend dishes, tells little stories with her animals and people...

 

My dd will soar when I start K with her next year. She knows to obey and mind her mama, and she knows that the simple little worksheets I give her are expected to be finished neatly and largely INDEPENDENTLY. ....check back next year and my dd and your ds will be pretty much on the same page as those who are doing a formal preschool, or pushing their kids, while I enjoyed my dd and let her play and get muddy and dirty for hours on end, and others spun their wheels and frustrated everyone.

 

Close to 6 is a realistic age for formal work, and scheduled days. 4 is not.

[hsmom]

yes. You are pushing too hard.

 

My 5 year old preschooler doesn't do any school or formal lessons except one Rod and Staff preschool page and one Kumon Numbers or Letters page each day. 10 minutes, tops. That's it.

 

She is more than prepared for Kindergarten next year. She can write all her letters, both upper and lower case, with a few here and there that need some work. She is well on her way to writing numbers 1-10, and knows all the sounds of her phonics letters. She is starting to write words all on her own and read them too. She wrote STOP the other day all by herself, for fun.

 

She has an amazing vocabulary and knows all the childhood fables, all of the basic American stories, tall tales, and legends such as Robin Hood. She has listened to and enjoyed Lassie, All of a Kind Family, American Girl books, the Hobbit and The Chronicles of Narnia. She has made her own story books about them and drew pictures.

 

But you know what she usually does? She plays in the dirt, plays play doh, makes messes with water, and sidewalk chalk, builds forts, builds with blocks, "washes" pretend dishes, tells little stories with her animals and people...

 

My dd will soar when I start K with her next year. She knows to obey and mind her mama, and she knows that the simple little worksheets I give her are expected to be finished neatly and largely INDEPENDENTLY. ....check back next year and my dd and your ds will be pretty much on the same page as those who are doing a formal preschool, or pushing their kids, while I enjoyed my dd and let her play and get muddy and dirty for hours on end, and others spun their wheels and frustrated everyone.

 

Close to 6 is a realistic age for formal work, and scheduled days. 4 is not.

 

I really needed to hear that.

 

Now on the other hand I have to convince my dh this is what we should be doing. He really wants our son to be "ahead" yet I feel the more I "push" the further we fall back.

 

Now I forget to put an actual time frame to this. We start at around 10. He is not a morning person. He usually sleeps until about 8:30- 9 am every morning.

[Karen in CO]

Those things are all fine, but I think that requiring them at 4 is too much. I have RS A, HWT, ETC, PP, and LeapFrog all sitting around for if my dd wants to do them. She has the option to sit at the table with us for seat work every day and I bring one or two things that she can choose from. Some days she joins us and some days she doesn't. WHen she sits for seat work, I require that she doesn't interrupt others at the table and that she does her work neatly and doesn't just scribble and be silly. I think the habits are the important part of school work at this age.

 

Most days while we are doing school, my dd does puzzles at the table with us instead of work. She listens to the read alouds, participates in any hands-on, and is free to come and go during school hours. As she gets olders, I will start requiring participation, but not at 4. Right now it is voluntary and her imaginative play is more important than any seat work.

[Anne]

The more you "push" at this age, the more you set him up to fail in the future. At this age, if he doesn't want to do it, he's probably not developmentally ready.

 

Honestly, one of my dds read fluently at age 5 - the other didn't read fluently until age 7. While my early reader did great in college, my later reader also became a good student, had great SAT scores, got into the college of her choice and is on the Dean's List.

 

You will prepare him for success later if you spend time now reading to him, playing with him, and helping him explore the world around him.

 

Anne

[Karen in CO]

I really needed to hear that.

 

Now on the other hand I have to convince my dh this is what we should be doing. He really wants our son to be "ahead" yet I feel the more I "push" the further we fall back.

 

Now I forget to put an actual time frame to this. We start at around 10. He is not a morning person. He usually sleeps until about 8:30- 9 am every morning.

 

Here is the typical course of study for preschool from World book.

[stripe]

And if you really want, read "Hothouse Kids" by Quart. (I'm linking to Google Books, and here is a Washington Post review of it.) Being "ahead" is not all it's cracked up to be.

[hsmom]

Here is the typical course of study for preschool from World book.

 

He has mastered almost all of the list already.

[Karen in CO]

He has mastered almost all of the list already.

 

So, then he is "ahead." ;)

 

The math and reading and other things you probably count as schoolish subjects can't be acheived until he has reached developmental milestones. It is sort of like pushing a kid to learn to walk or trying to get them to sit up faster. You can put a lot of effort into it and get frustration or you can provide a good healthy environment and wait.

 

At 4, running, jumping, sequencing, building, playing, singing, pretend and dress up, making messy art, exploring, experiencing - those are the school lessons that need to be addressed. The rest is just training or busywork until they are developmentally ready for more head work and seat work.

[...................]

Mind, you, I am a Christian and do not believe in manipulating people or deceiving them. But I do believe a wife can wisely figure out how to deal with her husband's desires...

 

What I would do is find a very gentle back to basics approach to preschool, and print it out and check everything off and just leave it around. When your dh asks you about it, or if your ds is "ahead" you can easily point to the list...see, "he has to know the 10 basic colors. Honey...he knows the ten basic colors, PLUS fuscia, magenta and maroon!"

 

:001_smile:

[coralloyd]

I don't think you are pushing too hard, just trying to stick to a schedule that isn't working. My 5yo is done after lunch. She is brain fried!!. I try to get all her work done before lunch. If I know we won't be able to finish school before lunch, I save all the read alouds for after lunch so all she has to do is listen.

I would rotate the time I do subjects. Do math first on certain days. Also, could you do you chores after lunch so you can spend that time doing school with you dc?

I think this is more of a scheduling problem than pushing too hard.

 

 

 

:iagree:

We do all of our school before lunch, and we start with the more difficult things (that need more brain power :)). At lunch I allow them to watch a Bible story video, that they always look forward to. The rest of the day is for play, play, play; and maybe a nap/quiet time ever so often, if they are getting on each others or my nerves ;).

[chiguirre]

I wanted to bring in some fun science stuff, but with us not getting done what he needs to already I just see that as a waste of money.

 

If you have access to a library, you can do a lot of fun science for free. The Magic School Bus videos and books are a lot of fun for 4yos and they absorb a lot of information while they're having fun. Bill Nye videos are also good. My kids have been enjoying Sid the Science Kid on PBS. It comes on early here, so you might have to record it. My kids love animals and there are lots of great non-fiction picture books on specific animals and habitats. It's also pretty easy to pull together some geography units using library resources. If you like the idea of picture book based mini-units, check out homeschoolshare.com (for free) or Five in a Row (pretty low cost).

 

As a guide to topics to cover, try What Your Kindergartener Should Know. I think all or almost all the topics would interest a 4yo and your dh will be pleased your ds is "doing Kindergarten".

 

On a different note completely, I'm using MUS alpha and you're supposed to do a page a day and skip extra sheets if your dc gets the concept down. Does Primer work that way? Even if it doesn't, doing math for only 5-10 minutes a day is enough at that age and if something is just not gelling, put it aside for a awhile. It took me a long time to learn that lesson!

[Karen in CO]

That is a great idea. The K book would be a good guide. And fun science would be wonderful and doesn't have to be expensive.

[Osaubi]

Mind, you, I am a Christian and do not believe in manipulating people or deceiving them. But I do believe a wife can wisely figure out how to deal with her husband's desires...

 

What I would do is find a very gentle back to basics approach to preschool, and print it out and check everything off and just leave it around. When your dh asks you about it, or if your ds is "ahead" you can easily point to the list...see, "he has to know the 10 basic colors. Honey...he knows the ten basic colors, PLUS fuscia, magenta and maroon!"

 

:001_smile:

 

 

:iagree: For some reason my dh feels better when he can see a checklist of things we have done. You could even put things on a list as you do them in a day. For instance if he makes playdoh animals, you could briefly talk to him about where they would live, how they behave, and what their life is like. You could count that as science for the day, and write it down that way on the checklist.

 

There have been times my ds6 didn't want to do school. After reading the boards I realized he needs time for all of the info I have thrown at him to sink in. So every once in awhile I will give him a pass on school just to play.

 

 

HTH

[2cents]

I don't think it is too much if he is able to handle it. I personally think at that age it might be easier to focus more on reading and less on math. Everything else comes easier after they are proficient readers. It also lets him focus on one thing. I'd also reinforce the fun of learning to read by LOTs of read alouds.

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

My dd is the same age. I have a few curricula that I use with her (AAS 1, RS A, and OPGTR) but we only do it if she wants to and if she is concentrating on it. I also try to turn things into a game as often as I can because that's what she likes. Learning, especially for a preschooler, doesn't need to be about doing worksheets. You can learn a lot through games and real life. And from the mom/accountability end of things you can actually plan to teach things this way.

[Mandamom]

when my kids were that little was set the materials out so that they could use them whenever they wanted -- within reason of course -- and that counted as school time.

 

So, if dd wanted to do some math or an ETC lesson at 7pm on a Saturday night we would do some work. She would do 2-4 lessons at a time that way when I'd have to fight her to follow a typical schedule.

 

It was sort of unschooling at that age and as she got older I transitioned her to a more regular schedule (until she started at the local public school :).

 

My point is that if I tried to force this child to do school work (really anything as she's very strong-willed) there was no way she would do it but if I gave her the opportunity to do it at her convenience (again, within reason) she would do what I expected plus usually a lot more. So, I figured we had 7 days per week and as long as she made progress over the week I was happy.

 

It worked well for us and actually made it easier because at the time my oldest was on a tight homeschool schedule and I wasn't trying to squeeze both of their work in during the day.

[Guest]

I think you've received a lot of good advice from many different perspectives. I hope you've received some encouragement! I just wanted to add a few things from my perspective. We do school already - my son is 3, almost 4.

 

I won't say whether or not I think you're pushing too hard, b/c I believe you know your child best. Since you're looking for advice, a few things you said stuck out to me....

 

We start by reviewing his full name in print, his birth date, our phone number, street address, the day of the week and the date.

 

You may find it is not necessary to review these everyday. We haven't progressed to address & phone number, but ds has no problem with minor memorization (such as recognizing or writing his name) and we never go over them. Maybe it would be okay to go over this stuff once or twice a week?

 

Then we do a couple of pages of ETC, he draws a picture. Then he takes his lunch and break. After which we move on to MUS primer and do 2 pages.

 

I do think this is a lot of seatwork for this age. My son was doing multiple pages from a workbook earlier in the year and it just wasn't fun. I cut down to 1 or 2 pages from his workbook and now he is thriving. The key I have found in our hs is to leave ds wanting more. ("Please mommy, can we do another page today?" "No, honey, we'll do that one tomorrow!")

 

Later in the afternoon he watches Leap frog letter factory and math circus. He also has the option to play on starfall.com or use his jumpstart programs on the computer.

 

I know with MY son, that whenever he watches TV or computer, two things happen. 1. His attention span goes down the drain - for the whole day and 2. He becomes very restless. I personally don't like to have TV for school or around schooltime, it makes our day harder. :(

 

Like instead of saying 1 2 3 4, he is saying 1 2 8 4 or something like that. He does not want to watch is videos, nor read. He just wants to play today.

 

Like I said before, I have to keep my son wanting more. If he starts to get like this at all, school is over. By preserving him at this time, I get a better output when we try again another day. My goal is to put a love of learning in my son right now, not squelch it - it's very hard to find that balance, huh?

 

I don't know how the MUS is structured, but Saxon K is designed to do 3 lessons per week. I have tried to stagger subjects for certain days of the week. We also are done with "school" in 1-2 hours. At their young age, their bodies do get tired in the afternoon. There are days when I can read my son's body language and know that doing school, even in the morning, is useless.

 

In case it helps, here's what our schedule is roughly like:

 

M- Math lesson, Workbook page, , Bible, read-alouds, activity

T- Review SWR Phonograms, Workbook page, Bible, read-alouds, activity

W - Math lesson, Workbook page, Bible, read-alouds, activity

Th - Review SWR Phonograms, Workbook page, Bible, read-alouds, activity

F - Math lesson, Workbook page, Bible, read-alouds, activity

 

We start about 9. We do Math, Phonics, any handwriting or workbook activities in about 30-45 min. Then we do with dd a Bible activity, read-alouds and then some kind of activity (play-doh, paint, bubbles, etc.)

 

I know this is long, but hopefully something helps!

[inashoe]

I don't think you are pushing too hard, just trying to stick to a schedule that isn't working. My 5yo is done after lunch. She is brain fried!!.

 

Even my 6 and 8 yo don't do any work after lunch. I certainly wouldn't expect a 4yo to do anything formal in the afternoon.

Only my 10yo is doing work after lunch.

[stripe]

You know, I've been thinking about this name, phone number, and address thing. My kids do this on their own when, say, listening to me make appointments, or looking at mail when it comes in, and I hear them them playing games where they're making doctor's appointments and giving their name and address. Maybe you could play post office games or making appointment games or something (good life skill, too), and/or sing your address as you leave the house. I think you could accomplish a lot of the same things through a different approach, and your son wouldn't feel like "This is school time. Blah," which seems to be what's going on. I really have felt myself that one has to have this formal environment in order to learn, so I've had to actively push that workbook style off-- the skills of very young children are so different and can be learned in so many more fun ways.