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Question about diversity/inclusion language

Kassia

By Kassia,
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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

The bolded is one of the faulty narratives going in LGBTQIA circles, and has been for several years now. There once was only two biological factors that would lead to an intersex diagnosis - ambiguous genitalia at birth and/or anomalies of chromosomes. But this has been changing for a while. Now, lots of young people think they are intersex because of feelings about things. 
 

In some ways, the narrative seems designed to push this conclusion. At a diversity conference I attended, the speaker said there were three “areas” of attraction that we experience - s€xual attraction (what sex organs you want to be involved with), romantic attraction (not necessarily party to the first), and “emotional attraction,” (not necessarily party to the first two), which is the silliest of all. IMHO, the point of all this hair-splitting is to make a case that everybody is “a little bit something”. Like when someone who has only ever played out a hetero  s€xual reality affirming that, actually, they are about 60% “bi-passing”. So because they - I don’t know - think their best (girl) friend looks really great dressed up for the club, or they have ever fantasized about playing with another female body, they think that means they *are* some category of not hetero. Besides, hetero is so boringly ordinary. 
 

I think our actions bear out what we are, which then reinforces our identity of what we are. 

Yep, they've been running the 'pcos etc is on the intersex spectrum' stuff for ages - which is very offensive imo. Someone here told me they were 'hormonally intersex.' A lot of girls who declare a trans identity and take testosterone feel better - which makes sense because testosterone boosts energy & helps with dopamine production - and use this as proof that they must be truly intersex somewhere deep down.

Eta - also our brains are plastic & highly malleable. Our actions *do* influence our brain. P0rn is a gigantic elephant in the room...

Edited by LMD
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Ginevra

Ginevra

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m gonna need an explainer on how p0rn and trans intersect.  I have no idea, truly.  

I’m not going to elaborate on this very much but doing things with someone who has intersex features is a kink, is most likely highly available in the P@rn market, and may be shaping the erotic “mapping” of millions of young people. There is also a significant overlap in anime (as entertainment) and anime P@rn. 
 

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EKS

EKS

Posted
Posted
34 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Something definitely seems to be going on for so many kids to suddenly feel they are the opposite sex.

It is the current, socially acceptable way to express distress in certain susceptible groups. 

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Heartstrings

Heartstrings

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I’m not going to elaborate on this very much but doing things with someone who has intersex features is a kink, is most likely highly available in the P@rn market, and may be shaping the erotic “mapping” of millions of young people. There is also a significant overlap in anime (as entertainment) and anime P@rn. 
 

Huh.  Learn something new everyday.   Thanks! 

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I’m not going to elaborate on this very much but doing things with someone who has intersex features is a kink, is most likely highly available in the P@rn market, and may be shaping the erotic “mapping” of millions of young people. There is also a significant overlap in anime (as entertainment) and anime P@rn. 
 

Yep.

There's also the s!ssy hypn0 variety (don't google) & the extreme degradation.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LMD said:

Yep, they've been running the 'pcos etc is on the intersex spectrum' stuff for ages - which is very offensive imo. Someone here told me they were 'hormonally intersex.' A lot of girls who declare a trans identity and take testosterone feel better - which makes sense because testosterone boosts energy & helps with dopamine production - and use this as proof that they must be truly intersex somewhere deep down.

Eta - also our brains are plastic & highly malleable. Our actions *do* influence our brain. P0rn is a gigantic elephant in the room...

This is super offensive.  Now folks are just spouting BS personal belief sans objective info. Not cool.

Who is *they*? I’ve suffered from PCOS all my life and I wasn’t diagnosed until an Asian repro-gyno did so when I was nearly 30.

Who are these they? The GPs, white and black, who dismissed my severe symptoms as normal because women are supposed to hurt? Where’s the data?

The framing you poo poo includes me and isn’t off base…for me.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, LMD said:

Yep, they've been running the 'pcos etc is on the intersex spectrum' stuff for ages - which is very offensive imo. Someone here told me they were 'hormonally intersex.' A lot of girls who declare a trans identity and take testosterone feel better - which makes sense because testosterone boosts energy & helps with dopamine production - and use this as proof that they must be truly intersex somewhere deep down.

Eta - also our brains are plastic & highly malleable. Our actions *do* influence our brain. P0rn is a gigantic elephant in the room...

Hetero or same sex porn? One is FAR more prevalent than the other.

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Melissa Louise

Melissa Louise

Posted
Posted

Someone used the 'is it trans or is it PCOS' in this thread. 

Someone used it in the drag thread too.

It's very offensive. Having PCOS does not remove or call into question someone's femaleness.

Being male, otoh, well...I mean, logic, isn't it? 

My dd has PCOS. She is clearly female. Nobody confuses her for a man, or for a tw.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted
Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Someone used the 'is it trans or is it PCOS' in this thread. 

Someone used it in the drag thread too.

It's very offensive. Having PCOS does not remove or call into question someone's femaleness.

Being male, otoh, well...I mean, logic, isn't it? 

My dd has PCOS. She is clearly female. Nobody confuses her for a man, or for a tw.

Love that for her, not. That does not address or implicate the notion of hormonal imbalances associated with PCOS impacting same sex attraction.

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Love that for her, not. That does not address or implicate the notion of hormonal imbalances associated with PCOS impacting same sex attraction.

Poly cystic OVARIAN syndrome only affects the FEMALE BODY. Attraction is not gender identity.

'They' is the activists that keep posting those awfully sexist 'sex spectrum' graphics.

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Hetero or same sex porn? One is FAR more prevalent than the other.

Which is s!ssy hypn0? 

I personally think it's not really either, but more a narcissistic paraphilia.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, LMD said:

Poly cystic OVARIAN syndrome only affects the FEMALE BODY. Attraction is not gender identity.

'They' is the activists that keep posting those awfully sexist 'sex spectrum' graphics.

Attraction has ZERO to do with the body you’re born in. And, I guess I’m an activist now b/c the line of BS Y’all are spouting is polarizing/animating and not in the way you probably want.

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted

Please feel free to point out any bs. I'm more than happy to discuss this.

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Attraction has ZERO to do with the body you’re born in. And, I guess I’m an activist now b/c the line of BS Y’all are spouting is polarizing/animating and not in the way you probably want/

Yes, you sound like an activist. An ignorant one. S!ssy is not my word, it's theirs, they love it.

Good luck convincing people that 'attraction has zero to do with the body' - pretty sure gay men and women would have some issue with that 'framing'

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, LMD said:

Please feel free to point out any bs. I'm more than happy to discuss this.

Yes, you sound like an activist. An ignorant one. S!ssy is not my word, it's theirs, they love it.

Good luck convincing people that 'attraction has zero to do with the body' - pretty sure gay men and women would have some issue with that 'framing'

Thanks. Proud of it.  Will wear with pride. Sick of bigots driving the bus. Lemme know which gay/lesbians under 40 use those terms affectionately. The one in my home has never uttered it. EVER.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I'm so lost. I'm pretty sure you're all agreeing that attraction doesn't have to do with what body you have. So then I'm lost on where the argument is?

No, apparently, same sex attraction is biologically circumscribed and related to gonads and presentation at birth. PCOS doesn’t impact sex determination at birth but it absolutely can impact sexual attraction, or not for the bigots among us.

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Thanks. Proud of it.  Will wear with pride. Sick of bigots driving the bus. Lemme know which gay/lesbians under 40 use those terms affectionately. The one in my home has never uttered it. EVER.

Lol

Insults don't make your case.

Google can help you. Though I suggest keeping some eye/brain bleach nearby. 

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I'm so lost. I'm pretty sure you're all agreeing that attraction doesn't have to do with what body you have. So then I'm lost on where the argument is?

Sexual attraction does have to do with specific bodies. To say otherwise (not saying you're saying otherwise ksera) is pretty homophobic, amongst other things.

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)

If the activist label (new to me) puts me on the outs with Melissa and LMD, COUNT ME IN!

4 minutes ago, LMD said:

Lol

Insults don't make your case.

Google can help you. Though I suggest keeping some eye/brain bleach nearby. 

Sexual attraction does have to do with specific bodies. To say otherwise (not saying you're saying otherwise ksera) is pretty homophobic, amongst other things.

Find the insult. Suggesting the hormonal imbalances of PCOS don’t create different sexual attractions absent evidence to the contrary, personal or otherwise, is bigotry b/c YOU DON’T KNOW. WOMEN who experience PCOS should speak to that. Research should speak to that. Not trans-hating randos.

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maize

maize

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

If the activist label (new to me) puts me on the outs with Melissa and LMD, COUNT ME IN!

Find the insult. Suggesting the hormonal imbalances of PCOS don’t create different special attractions absent evidence to the contrary, personal or otherwise, is bigotry. WOMEN who experience PCOS should speak to that.

What I saw was people saying that PCOS doesn't make a woman something other than a woman--in spite of some people trying to frame it as an intersex condition. 

I'm not sure where you are finding the attraction stuff.

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

If the activist label (new to me) puts me on the outs with Melissa and LMD, COUNT ME IN!

Find the insult. Suggesting the hormonal imbalances of PCOS don’t create different special attractions absent evidence to the contrary, personal or otherwise, is bigotry. WOMEN who experience PCOS should speak to that.

1. I have pcos. Diagnosed 18 years ago.

2. I said nothing about pcos & attraction, YOU brought that up

3. Bigotry? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

4. A female specific medical issue has nothing to do with diagnoses of sexual development (intersex) or trans and it is both incorrect and offensive to say it does. I'm not less of a woman or a little bit or a man because my unbalanced hormones affect my ovaries That was my point.

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KSera

KSera

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, LMD said:

Sexual attraction does have to do with specific bodies. To say otherwise (not saying you're saying otherwise ksera) is pretty homophobic, amongst other things.

Yeah, I guess in my confusion about the turn of the thread I worded that pretty badly. I meant that I don’t think anyone here is arguing that kind of body you have dictates who you will be attracted to. IOW, having a male body doesn’t allow anyone to predict what someone’s sexual orientation is with any kind of certainty. I’m pretty sure we’re all agreeing with that here, so that’s where I got confused what the argument was. 

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, maize said:

What I saw was people saying that PCOS doesn't make a woman something other than a woman--in spite of some people trying to frame it as an intersex condition. 

I'm not sure where you are finding the attraction stuff.

It doesn’t make her something other than a woman if that’s how she sees herself. The issue is others imposing an identity on folks other than themselves. Long before I ever knew I had PCOS, 25+ years ago, met DH, married or had kids (via IVF) , I was SURROUNDED by non-het women, mostly black/brown. I had no idea, so ingrained was my socialization wrt binary sex/sexuality. All of this…you must be/cannot be crap is exacerbating the problem folks say they want to solve. You’re forcing people into boxes. Life is much more complex than that and we don’t know a lot of things…still. If you have these gonads=woman. If you have these=male. If you like women and have these gonads=lesbian. If none of the above…FREAK!! Unworthy of consideration.

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Melissa Louise

Melissa Louise

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I read a very interesting article by a transperson yesterday. Reimagining Trans - working (philpapers.org)  It was about trans not being an identity, but an experience. I thought it was interesting philosophically, whether you agree with all of it/any of it or not. 

Gender is a performance, so that makes sense to me. 

 

 

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Melissa Louise

Melissa Louise

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It doesn’t make her something other than a woman if that’s how she sees herself. The issue is others imposing an identity on folks other than themselves. Long before I ever knew o has PCOS, met DH, married or had kids, I was SURROUNDED by non-het women, mostly black/brown. I had no idea, so ingrained was my socialization wrt binary sex/sexuality. All of this you must be/cannot be crap is exacerbating the problem folks say they want to solve. You’re forcing people into boxes. Life is much more complex than that and we don’t know a lot of things…still.

Only women have PCOS  because only women have ovaries 

Men don't have ovaries.

A woman with PCOS can see herself as a transman or an enby if she wants.

She's still female. If she wasn't female, she wouldn't have PCOS. 

It has nothing to do with whether she is gay, straight or bi. And having PCOS does not make her a man. 

 

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It doesn’t make her something other than a woman if that’s how she sees herself. The issue is others imposing an identity on folks other than themselves. Long before I ever knew I had PCOS, 25+ years ago, met DH, married or had kids (via IVF) , I was SURROUNDED by non-het women, mostly black/brown. I had no idea, so ingrained was my socialization wrt binary sex/sexuality. All of this…you must be/cannot be crap is exacerbating the problem folks say they want to solve. You’re forcing people into boxes. Life is much more complex than that and we don’t know a lot of things…still.

Why is saying female bodies exist 'forcing people into boxes'?

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Only women have PCOS  because only women have ovaries 

Men don't have ovaries.

A woman with PCOS can see herself as a transman or an enby if she wants.

She's still female. If she wasn't female, she wouldn't have PCOS. 

It has nothing to do with whether she is gay, straight or bi. And having PCOS does not make her a man. 

 

Intersex people are? THEY’RE PEOPLE. They exist. They deserve inclusion. They don’t fit your narratives. This woman with a vagina has testes. She’s not a man. She has never felt like or identified as a man. She identifies as a lesbian woman. It doesn’t match bigots priorities. https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/24/caster-semenya-800m-world-athletics-hbo-interview

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Melissa Louise

Melissa Louise

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Intersex people are? THEY’RE PEOPLE. They exist. They deserve inclusion. They don’t fit your narratives. This woman with a vagina has testes. She’s not a man. She has never felt like or identified as a man.  https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/24/caster-semenya-800m-world-athletics-hbo-interview

Omg 

For starters, the term isn't intersex. It's differences of sexual development. 

And not all DSD's are the same. 

DSD's are sex based.

And no E of this has anything to do with PCOS. 

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Omg 

For starters, the term isn't intersex. It's differences of sexual development. 

And not all DSD's are the same. 

DSD's are sex based.

And no E of this has anything to do with PCOS. 

Intersex is accepted/used worldwide. Take it up with the globe.

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Intersex people are? THEY’RE PEOPLE. They exist. They deserve inclusion. They don’t fit your narratives. This woman with a vagina has testes. She’s not a man. She has never felt like or identified as a man. She identifies as a lesbian woman. It doesn’t match bigots priorities. https://amp.theguardian.com/sport

Why would you assume that correctly identifying a person's sex - which can help diagnose sex specific disorders of sexual development - means they are seen as lesser humans?

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No, it’s not a fact. Biology is much more complex than simpletons want to make it.

Insults again.

You didn't answer the question. Why is observing the reality of sexual dimorphism in mammals 'forcing people in boxes'?

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, LMD said:

Why would you assume that correctly identifying a person's sex - which can help diagnose sex specific disorders of sexual development - means they are seen as lesser humans?

Because they are discussed as also-rans, detritus by you and others. You’re not a physician for whom this information is relevant to their work. For the vast, VAST majority of us, this issue has no bearing on how we react to and treat people. Harping on it makes it seem definitive in your outlook toward and treatment of people which is abhorrent. And if that’s NOT how you’re treating people, just talking shit behind their backs, shame on you. I don’t believe God made junk.

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LMD

LMD

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Because they are discussed as also-rans, detritus by you and others. You’re not a physician for whom this information is relevant to their work. For the vast, VAST majority of us, this issue has no bearing on how we react to and treat people. Harping on it makes it seem definitive in your outlook toward and treatment of people which is abhorrent. And if that’s NOT how you’re treating people, just talking shit behind their backs, shame on you.

Please quote where I have ever discussed anyone as anything like 'detritus'

As far as I can see you're the only one hurling insults.

Unless, you think recognising female bodies is an insult. In which case, why?

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Sneezyone

Sneezyone

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, LMD said:

Please quote where I have ever discussed anyone as anything like 'detritus'

As far as I can see you're the only one hurling insults.

Unless, you think recognising female bodies is an insult. In which case, why?

You don’t have to be nearly so explicit and you know it. Your contempt oozes out of every post. I’m not afraid to mince words. Many are, like you. Talking ‘nice’ doesn’t make your message or vibe less hateful.

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Scarlett

Scarlett

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

You don’t have to be nearly so explicit and you know it. Your contempt oozes out of every post.

What contempt? As always with this subject matter I am so lost. What the heck is going on? Can someone give me the cliff notes. In pm if that is better. 

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