Drag Story time

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

I was just seeing this morning there were Nazis protesting a drag story time at a cafe in Concord a couple days ago. Complete with nazi salutes and a big "Defend White Communities" banner 🤢. I know these people have never gone away, but the boldness they feel now to be loud and proud about their hate and bigotry is frightening. I expect they now feel like they have the support of a lot of people. I would hope that both "sides" could agree this is not a desirable direction the US has turned.

https://www.wmur.com/article/new-hampshire-white-supremacist-protest-drag-story-hour/44257286

Both sides in this conversation? Or both sides of US politics?

Because nobody in this conversation is pro Nazi.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, maize said:

I have never in person or online encountered anyone who claims to be a contemporary Nazi.

Did you see or read about the one I just posted? These were actual Nazis, doing Nazi chants and salutes and holding white supremacy signs. It seems to be becoming more and more common, not less so.

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Actual contemporary Nazis are a thing. People in Charlottesville were carring swastika flags, doing the Nazi salute, and shouting translated from German Nazis slogans.  And that's not even close to a one-off.  They are getting more vocal and brazen, and is becoming more and more common.  This is not hyperbole.  Actual, Hitler-was-a-great-leader Nazis.

Right, this. 

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

So transmen legally are required to use the women's room. Which, as you might imagine, isn't actually going to make women feel comfy. 

My sense is that the people making the laws largely don’t know any trans people and thus don’t realize that in many cases, they they’re not going to know if someone is trans, especially with trans men who have been on testosterone awhile. For anyone reading along who isn’t familiar either, it might be worthwhile to do an image search to get a concrete feel for what we’re talking about, and see if that complicates bathroom laws for you. 

1 hour ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I agree, but I would have felt better if he had at least used a stall instead of the urinal right next to me.  

They have the urinals in the open and right next to the changing table in a mixed gender restroom? That’s super weird and honestly gross. I don’t want my baby getting splashed on 🤢🤮. The fact he chose that one rather than another option makes him seem like a creeper. Who would do that? 

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Both sides in this conversation? Or both sides of US politics?

Both sides of US politics. I would hope that everyone in the US who isn’t a Nazi would agree that all the increase in far right Nazi activity is not a good thing for anyone.

[pinball]

Just now, KSera said:

Both sides of US politics. I would hope that everyone in the US who isn’t a Nazi would agree that all the increase in far right Nazi activity is not a good thing for anyone.

That’s bc your next step is to say: if you’re not a Nazi and if you agree that the increase in far right Nazi activity is not a good thing, then you should stop complaining about “drag queen story hour” and let men use women’s bathrooms and locker rooms and play on women’s sports teams and shut up about “gender affirming medical care” for minors…

And if you WON’T do all those things, well, then you’re just a Nazi who supports the rise in Nazi activity.

 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

My sense is that the people making the laws largely don’t know any trans people and thus don’t realize that in many cases, they they’re not going to know if someone is trans, especially with trans men who have been on testosterone awhile. For anyone reading along who isn’t familiar either, it might be worthwhile to do an image search to get a concrete feel for what we’re talking about, and see if that complicates bathroom laws for you. 

 

Right. If the issue was TRULY to make women feel safe using the bathroom, they wouldn't have passed laws that  REQURES transmen to use the women's room. Having someone with a beard, muscular body type, etc in obviously men's clothing required to use the lady's room  NOT going to make women feel better, and it is silly to think the law had that intent in the first place. 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, pinball said:

That’s bc your next step is to say: if you’re not a Nazi and if you agree that the increase in far right Nazi activity is not a good thing, then you should stop complaining about “drag queen story hour” and let men use women’s bathrooms and locker rooms and play on women’s sports teams and shut up about “gender affirming medical care” for minors…

And if you WON’T do all those things, well, then you’re just a Nazi who supports the rise in Nazi activity.

 

No, Ksera won't say that...but there are absolutely activists and allies who do.

Ever seen the justifications for punching a T*RF? Rests on T*FF's being Nazis. So it's cool now to threaten women with violence, so.long as you can dehumanise them in your own mind first. 

And it doesn't work the other way.

Nobody should be punched, and that includes everyone, regardless of drag or gender. Feminists are not threatening to punch a [slur].

 

[Melissa Louise]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Right. If the issue was TRULY to make women feel safe using the bathroom, they wouldn't have passed laws that  REQURES transmen to use the women's room. Having someone with a beard, muscular body type, etc in obviously men's clothing required to use the lady's room  NOT going to make women feel better, and it is silly to think the law had that intent in the first place. 

I don't think anyone here says the laws are good. 

I don't want any bathroom laws.

i want male people to think about the needs of female people in addition to their own. 

They won't, of course. 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Right. If the issue was TRULY to make women feel safe using the bathroom, they wouldn't have passed laws that  REQURES transmen to use the women's room. Having someone with a beard, muscular body type, etc in obviously men's clothing required to use the lady's room  NOT going to make women feel better, and it is silly to think the law had that intent in the first place. 

I don’t know why people assume the people passing these bills, mostly old rich, white guys in state legislatures give a flying flip about women.  They are using protecting  women as a pawn  to distract us all by focusing hate on a politically convenient group in order to secure their own position of power.  As per usual.  

[LMD]

Double post

Edited June 22, 2023 by LMD
Double post

[prairiewindmomma]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I don’t know why people assume the people passing these bills, mostly old rich, white guys in state legislatures give a flying flip about women.  They are using protecting  women as a pawn  to distract us all by focusing hate on a politically convenient group in order to secure their own position of power.  As per usual.  

1000x this. 

[LMD]

Triple post

Edited June 22, 2023 by LMD
Triple post

[LMD]

32 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I was referring specifically to bathroom laws. I had posted that in the south the laws do not create a viable bathroom option for trans folks. Which basically is saying that trans folks should not be in public spaces, and that if the actual goal was just to make women safe rather than try to keep trans folks out of public spaces they would have written the law differently, required single person bathrooms, etc. 

In reponse someone told me the reason they didn't require single person bathrooms when making it illegal to use the bathroom that doesn't conform to your sex at birth is that trans activists don't want that. 

I explained that trans activists were not the ones in power in the southern united states, and had zero input on writing these laws. 

That doesn't mean there are not trans activists lobbying for any number of things in other places. 

But the fact of the matter is, it is right wing fundamentalists who consider transgender person an abomination writing the laws here, and the result is that legally at this point a transman has to use a women's room and a transwoman has to use the mens room, and given the potential for harassment, violence,  or arrest that isn't feasible. Which is the goal - no feasible options. 

My bold - that was me. I've seen it many times, even here on this board over the years, that a gender neutral option is 'outing and othering'

I don't know the ins and outs of American politics, but there are certainly some very rich and powerful pro trans lobby groups in the US. These sound like reactionary laws that aren't well thought out, though I haven't read the actual text.

I notice that 'potential for harassment and violence' makes using the bathrooms of their sex unfeasable, but can't you see that opening up women's bathrooms to any self id male creates *exactly the same* unfeasable risk to women (and stealth transwomen)?

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I don’t know why people assume the people passing these bills, mostly old rich, white guys in state legislatures give a flying flip about women.  They are using protecting  women as a pawn  to distract us all by focusing hate on a politically convenient group in order to secure their own position of power.  As per usual.  

Who thinks they give a flying flip?

I know I don't. One of my frustrations with some of the extreme rhetoric on my side of politics over the last few years is because I knew it was an own goal, and rw politicians would use it to further their own aims.

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, LMD said:

My bold - that was me. I've seen it many times, even here on this board over the years, that a gender neutral option is 'outing and othering'

I don't know the ins and outs of American politics, but there are certainly some very rich and powerful pro trans lobby groups in the US. These sound like reactionary laws that aren't well thought out, though I haven't read the actual text. They are reacting to something, maybe they're all really just not-so-secret nazis, but most of what I see on 'my side' is people who tried to be allys until their boundaries were violated.

I notice that 'potential for harassment and violence' makes using the bathrooms of their sex unfeasable, but can't you see that opening up women's bathrooms to any self id male creates *exactly the same* unfeasable risk to women (and stealth transwomen)?

When tw are worried about harassment, that's understandable. When women have concerns about being in a mixed sex space while vulnerable, that's hysteria. Good old sexism rears its head. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Can we talk about book bans in public spaces like schools, libraries, etc. What is “acceptable” to you re: to the presence of a book on a shelf, and what is not? 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

I can 100% assure you that here & other places it turns out they are. Have you been watching the UK fallout with mermaids & tavistock? Activists. My best friend is a member of parliament, I know what's in that particular sausage. And so we have laws against talk therapy for 'trans' kids - affirmation only or you could face 10 years in prison. We have many many mostly women being fired and slandered (and worse) for bringing it up. We have a literal male rapist in our local female prison and that decision was made without the women's blessing - on the contrary, their pleas are being ignored and punished.

I'm sorry, but this has gone further than the poor confused kids.

It's so strange - it's as if these things literally don't matter to some. I find the prisons issue the one that upsets me most. 

 

 

[maize]

24 minutes ago, KSera said:

 The fact he chose that one rather than another option makes him seem like a creeper. Who would do that? 

Creepers who are empowered and facilitated in their creeping by the invitation to enter the only restroom available to women. 

That's who would do that.

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's so strange - it's as if these things literally don't matter to some. I find the prisons issue the one that upsets me most. 

 

 

Transgender women in the US are nearly always incarcerated with men here, if not given separate accommodations.

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Can we talk about book bans in public spaces like schools, libraries, etc. What is “acceptable” to you re: to the presence of a book on a shelf, and what is not? 

I've consistently been anti book bans.

The argument tends to flip around depending on whether ppl like the book. Ppl who were pro Suess bans will be anti queer kid book bans and vice versa. Not me. Radical free speech re books. 

Librarians are responsible for curating collections. They should behave professionally, without bias, and curate for quality. 

In a school, they need to also curate in support of the curriculum, and there will be rules about which stages can access which books.

I am very much not a fan of books for elementary students which encourage the 'wrong body' idea - I think they are inaccurate, and developmentally inappropriate. 

Still not in favour of book bans. 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Transgender women in the US are nearly always incarcerated with men here, if not given separate accommodations.

Males should be incarcerated with males, and given protection in the male estate if vulnerable.

I think what some of us are saying is that in places where laws have swung the way US activists and allies would like them to swing, there have been terrible consequences for vulnerable (and non vulnerable!) women. 

I would think ppl.might.be interested in avoiding that outcome by understanding how some things being advocated here play out. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Also, the rape and assault statistics on trans women housed in male populations are pretty horrific. I am linking this article because it has links to previous surveys and studies.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

Edited June 22, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[LMD]

7 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Transgender women in the US are nearly always incarcerated with men here, if not given separate accommodations.

Not Dana Rivers, for one. He murdered a lesbian couple and their son and is today in a female prison. In fact, there's quite a few in California. Those incarcerated women are terrified.

Edited June 22, 2023 by LMD
Punctuation

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Also, the tape and assault statistics on trans women housed in male populations are pretty horrific. I am linking this article because it has links to previous surveys and studies.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

Reform the male estate. Don't use female prisoners as a human shield for, among other things here, rapists..

[LMD]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Also, the rape and assault statistics on trans women housed in male populations are pretty horrific. I am linking this article because it has links to previous surveys and studies.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html

Women aren't rape shields for vulnerable men.

[Terabith]

[prairiewindmomma]

Prisons here are unsafe for nearly everyone in them, regardless of gender. 
 

Y’all, the pile on. I didn’t say where they “should” be housed. I said where they are currently housed and what some of those consequences are.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, LMD said:

Women aren't rape shields for vulnerable men.

Always a return to prioritising males. 

I was washing the dishes this morning and thinking about this thread, and about how all the transphobia and homophobia has at its root a profound contempt for women. Homophobia at a man taking 'the women's role' in sex. Transphobia at a male adopting the role of a woman. 

Seems to me if we spent more time interrogating the misogyny at the base of it all, we might actually have a chance of solving issues well.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Prisons here are unsafe for nearly everyone in them, regardless of gender. 
 

Y’all, the pile on. I didn’t say where they “should” be housed. I said where they are currently housed and what some of those consequences are.

It's not a pile on.Its two of us, angry that women can be housed with a male rapist. That's worth anger. Those women are worth it.

[pinball]

14 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's so strange - it's as if these things literally don't matter to some. I find the prisons issue the one that upsets me most. 

 

 

Prisons and domestic violence shelters for me

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, pinball said:

Prisons and domestic violence shelters for me

Yes.

🙁 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Women rape women too in US prisons. Focusing on safety for everyone does not negate focusing on safety for women.

 

[Melissa Louise]

@Terabith

I understand where you're coming from, but that twitter thread isn't going to convince people you want to convince. 

[Melissa Louise]

14 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Women rape women too in US prisons. Focusing on safety for everyone does not negate focusing on safety for women.

 

Again, stats. Women are statistically far less risky to other women. Women's patterns of offending are VERY different to males'. 

Males are much, much more. Same sex provision manages risk and keeps women safer. 

In some jurisdictions, women cannot, in fact 'rape'. 

Most women in prison for rape" are there on joint enterprise charges and are not, in fact, solo rapists.

Trans activists and allies are not advocating for safety for everyone in prisons - just for males.

*tiny % of female prisoners, so tiny it's almost negligible

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[prairiewindmomma]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Again, stats. Women are statistically far less risky to other women.

Males are much, much more. Same sex provision manages risk and keeps women safer. 

In some jurisdictions, women cannot, in fact 'rape'. 

Most women in prison for rape are there on joint enterprise charges and are not, in fact, solo rapists.

Trans activists and allies are not advocating for safety for everyone in prisons - just for males..

 

I’ll try to dig up a recent report. I don’t have slides from the last conference I went to, but at the conference females were more likely to be sexually assaulted/raped at something like 5-6x what men were, and of those assaults, about half of those were from women being assaulted by male staff in the prisons. It varied by prison size and type and location, but that’s roughly what it worked out to. Women are 30x more likely to be raped inside of prison than out of it, but something like 80-90% of incarcerated women had been sexually assaulted or raped at some point in their lives prior to their most immediate incarceration. 

Something like 2/3-3/4 of trans women in male housing reported rape, often repeatedly….they were much more likely to be assaulted then a man living in the male side of prison.

It’s been several months since I attended that, and I am sure the slides were pulled from various reports…but it looks like from my files that I didn’t download that file set. I don’t go into prisons or do domestic violence work currently so it wasn’t as relevant to me. 

[LMD]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I’ll try to dig up a recent report. I don’t have slides from the last conference I went to, but at the conference females were more likely to be sexually assaulted/raped at something like 5-6x what men were, and of those assaults, about half of those were from women being assaulted by male staff in the prisons. It varied by prison size and type and location, but that’s roughly what it worked out to. Women are 30x more likely to be raped inside of prison than out of it, but something like 80-90% of incarcerated women had been sexually assaulted or raped at some point in their lives prior to their most immediate incarceration. 

Something like 2/3-3/4 of trans women in male housing reported rape, often repeatedly….they were much more likely to be assaulted then a man living in the male side of prison.

It’s been several months since I attended that, and I am sure the slides were pulled from various reports…but it looks like from my files that I didn’t download that file set. I don’t go into prisons or do domestic violence work currently so it wasn’t as relevant to me. 

So you can surely understand why the women in my state are upset that a male rapist is locked in with them...

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I’ll try to dig up a recent report. I don’t have slides from the last conference I went to, but at the conference females were more likely to be sexually assaulted/raped at something like 5-6x what men were, and of those assaults, about half of those were from women being assaulted by male staff in the prisons. It varied by prison size and type and location, but that’s roughly what it worked out to. Women are 30x more likely to be raped inside of prison than out of it, but something like 80-90% of incarcerated women had been sexually assaulted or raped at some point in their lives prior to their most immediate incarceration. 

Something like 2/3-3/4 of trans women in male housing reported rape, often repeatedly….they were much more likely to be assaulted then a man living in the male side of prison.

It’s been several months since I attended that, and I am sure the slides were pulled from various reports…but it looks like from my files that I didn’t download that file set. I don’t go into prisons or do domestic violence work currently so it wasn’t as relevant to me. 

Yep. Women are assaulted in prison, often by male guards. 

The answer to that is not to add male rapists to the mix because 'eh, what's one more'. 

I don't trust myself to talk about this topic and not lose my shit, which I'd rather not do with you, so I'll just restate my belief that male rapists, regardless of gender, should not be held in women's prisons. 

I answered your qu re book bans upthread, maybe we can discuss that instead. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[LMD]

I'd love to see the receipts of a tall woman wearing pants facing legal repercussions

[prairiewindmomma]

4 minutes ago, LMD said:

So you can surely understand why the women in my state are upset that a male rapist is locked in with them...

I do understand that. Under PREA federal laws in the US, this should not have happened. The initial intake interview would have identified her nonconforming status and her history of rape. While she can’t be segregated solely due to her gender identification, risk assessment, and ongoing 6-month reassessments should have precluded her from sharing sleeping or showering facilities with other women.
 

 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, LMD said:

I'd love to see the receipts of a tall woman wearing pants facing legal repercussions

Or crossing legs.

I can understand why that thread was posted, but it's not effective, imo. Maybe the US is on the brink of criminalising leg crossing but most people aren't going to listen to that. 

[LMD]

10 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I do understand that. Under PREA federal laws in the US, this should not have happened. The initial intake interview would have identified her nonconforming status and her history of rape. While she can’t be segregated solely due to her gender identification, risk assessment, and ongoing 6-month reassessments should have precluded her from sharing sleeping or showering facilities with other women.
 

 

His intact pen!s should have precluded him. Full stop.

You really should hear from the incarcerated Californian women. It's not good. 

Amie Ichikawa does good work with incarcerated women (she was incarcerated in California herself)

Edited June 22, 2023 by LMD

[prairiewindmomma]

Re: book bans…..can we talk about FL as a starting point because a number of states are patterning after them?

HB 1557 is the “Don’t say gay” provision—no instruction k-3 on identity or orientation, and then afterwards only “age/developmentally appropriate way” “in accordance with state standards”, teachers in violation of the law risk their license to teach

HB 7: “Stop WOKE”- list of divisive topics that teachers should not teach students to feel “guilt or psychological distress” about

HB 1467: requires searchable database, no pornography or material harmful to minors

 

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Re: book bans…..can we talk about FL as a starting point because a number of states are patterning after them?

HB 1557 is the “Don’t say gay” provision—no instruction k-3 on identity or orientation, and then afterwards only “age/developmentally appropriate way” “in accordance with state standards”, teachers in violation of the law risk their license to teach

HB 7: “Stop WOKE”- list of divisive topics that teachers should not teach students to feel “guilt or psychological distress” about

HB 1467: requires searchable database, no pornography or material harmful to minors

 

Against laws banning books, for evidence based guidance for librarians and teachers in schools re curating collections that meet student needs. 

In some ways, I have nothing much to say about this. 

[Melissa Louise]

I mean, having said that, no access to porn at school is pretty reasonable. I'm seeing boys exhibiting porn learned behaviours in primary school! so their 'right' to access it outside of school clearly isn't at risk. 

[maize]

A book ban, to me, means making a book illegal to own.

I've seen no laws in the US that do that. 

Regulation of what books may be included in publicly funded school and community libraries is a better description of the laws under discussion.

[prairiewindmomma]

If no public funds were expended on the books, because they were donated, do you feel differently?

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If no public funds were expended on the books, because they were donated, do you feel differently?

No. It's about professional librarianship to me. 

[maize]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If no public funds were expended on the books, because they were donated, do you feel differently?

The description still applies. The schools and libraries themselves are publicly funded.

I didn't express any feeling.

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

The description still applies. The schools and libraries themselves are publicly funded.

I didn't express any feeling.

Sorry, trying to clarify if there was a difference for you about it being a public space or if it was about an expenditure of collective public tax funds…

[prairiewindmomma]

What does professional librarianship mean to you? Is there/should there be an obligation to curate a collection of books that provides access to information on a variety of viewpoints and cultural experiences, such as the ethics code portrayed by the International Federation of Library Associations? https://www.ifla.org/publications/ifla-code-of-ethics-for-librarians-and-other-information-workers-full-version/

[KSera]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

That’s bc your next step is to say: if you’re not a Nazi and if you agree that the increase in far right Nazi activity is not a good thing, then you should stop complaining about “drag queen story hour” and let men use women’s bathrooms and locker rooms and play on women’s sports teams and shut up about “gender affirming medical care” for minors…

And if you WON’T do all those things, well, then you’re just a Nazi who supports the rise in Nazi activity.

 

It doesn’t sound like you’ve been reading the thread if that’s what you think. Your statements are completely inconsistent with my posts. 

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I don’t know why people assume the people passing these bills, mostly old rich, white guys in state legislatures give a flying flip about women.  They are using protecting  women as a pawn  to distract us all by focusing hate on a politically convenient group in order to secure their own position of power.  As per usual.  

Yes to this! One of the truest things said in this thread, IMO. 

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

One of my frustrations with some of the extreme rhetoric on my side of politics over the last few years is because I knew it was an own goal, and rw politicians would use it to further their own aims.

Yes to this as well. 

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I am very much not a fan of books for elementary students which encourage the 'wrong body' idea - I think they are inaccurate, and developmentally inappropriate. 

Still not in favour of book bans. 

Yep. This is another example where people need to be able to exercise nuance but mostly can’t.  The “wrong body” thing is not helpful to kids. At all. We’re actually in the midst of having to reassure our 5yo that there’s no reason to worry that one day they will find out they are no longer their gender. That’s a fear they have been expressing to us recently because an older sibling (not the one who is trans) took it upon themself to do some gender identity teaching of younger sibling. I’m annoyed older dc felt this was their place to do the explaining on rather than us, but I’d be way more bothered by someone telling my dc they might have the “wrong body”. 

19 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Re: book bans…..can we talk about FL as a starting point because a number of states are patterning after them?

HB 1557 is the “Don’t say gay” provision—no instruction k-3 on identity or orientation, and then afterwards only “age/developmentally appropriate way” “in accordance with state standards”, teachers in violation of the law risk their license to teach

HB 7: “Stop WOKE”- list of divisive topics that teachers should not teach students to feel “guilt or psychological distress” about

HB 1467: requires searchable database, no pornography or material harmful to minors

 

This seems good for a spin-off thread?

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If no public funds were expended on the books, because they were donated, do you feel differently?

I think this is a good case to use the strategy of taking to extremes. Is there anything at all that you don’t think belongs in an elementary library? I don’t think it should be addressed by government book bans, but I think schools and libraries should have developmentally appropriate standards. That’s not the same thing as banning books.