Writing Strands & other WRITING only curriculums

[Ting Tang]

I know many of us are not big fans of Master Books for various reasons, but how do you all feel about Writing Strands?  

I really love the idea of the progymnasmata.  I've been looking at Cottage Press quite a bit, but my two older boys have their challenges.  MCT writing didn't work for my 5th grader this year.  I would say he barely wrote anything.  I admit that.  Neither did my 4th grader, but he has some learning challenges and just finished up AAR.  I'm wondering if a program like Writing Strands might be a good fit for both of them.  Something simple and direct.  I would love something that might include instruction on punctuation, too.  (MCT did, but we didn't do the writing...so...)

I also looked at WWE and WWS.  Those books overwhelm me a bit. 

I'm wondering if I go with something "easier" for my oldest, he will be inclined to write more, rather than if I make him follow some intricate writing program.

ETA: I just watched a review that said there are no answers in the teacher manual, and some questions may require those.  So that makes me hesitant.  

Edited April 30, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Nm.]

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Edited April 30, 2023 by Nm.

[Malam]

If you go with writing strands, check out the original edition with the egg/bird on the cover. Also check out https://classicalwriting.com/

[LauraClark]

We use the old writing stands (oldest is 11 and in book 6) and have used them for 5 years. I love them because the writing assignments can be a bit open ended, which fits our family well. Writing is a teacher intensive subject, in my opinion. My 11yo can read the assignment and write it on his own, but I have to read it and go over it with him. I'm not sure a teacher manual would help. 

[Ting Tang]

Thanks! I will need to see how the old version compares to the new one.  Part of me wonders if I need a writing curriculum, but if someone else defines the parameters, maybe that will make it easier on me, lol.

[HomeAgain]

10 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thanks! I will need to see how the old version compares to the new one.  Part of me wonders if I need a writing curriculum, but if someone else defines the parameters, maybe that will make it easier on me, lol.

The old ones are written with a "week on, week off" method.  The books are much slimmer, written to the student, there is no writing in them unless you fill out the assessment sheets, and the assignments are spaced out, giving you a chance to take the time to look for examples in daily life of the same type of writing.  We actually found it better to introduce the assignment, take the time to look for examples, and then complete the assignment.

Overall, I can say the method didn't work well for my kids.  They needed more explicit teaching than WS gave, and WS is very clear on how assignments should be done.  It's just WS works on different types of writing and my kids needed to feel comfortable with one.  They didn't care about being creative or anything else the books tried to teach them and gave half effort.  So we switched to more direct "this is how you write a paragraph, this is how you write an essay" programs and they thrived.

[Ting Tang]

51 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

The old ones are written with a "week on, week off" method.  The books are much slimmer, written to the student, there is no writing in them unless you fill out the assessment sheets, and the assignments are spaced out, giving you a chance to take the time to look for examples in daily life of the same type of writing.  We actually found it better to introduce the assignment, take the time to look for examples, and then complete the assignment.

Overall, I can say the method didn't work well for my kids.  They needed more explicit teaching than WS gave, and WS is very clear on how assignments should be done.  It's just WS works on different types of writing and my kids needed to feel comfortable with one.  They didn't care about being creative or anything else the books tried to teach them and gave half effort.  So we switched to more direct "this is how you write a paragraph, this is how you write an essay" programs and they thrived.

Thanks very much for sharing.  I'm starting to worry that my son is entering 6th grade and really didn't do very much writing.  I did get a great outline on progym exercises that a school uses without a specific curriculum and wondered if that might suit us, just applying the exercises to what he is learning.  I just know the clock is ticking and we must do something!  I'm starting to think the Master Books program varies a lot from the original.  WWE and WWS looked complex and advanced for the recommended ages, but maybe I was just tired when I looked!  

[Mona]

Have you looked at an inexpensive workbook like “Spectrum Writing grade #” OR “How to Write a Paragraph” grade 6-8 to get him started writing? You could use ideas from those a couple days a week over the summer to get him comfortable with writing a decent paragraph. The second book mentioned does get into letter writing and essay writing towards the end of the book. Both are less than $10 and available on Amazon.

I like to pull from different resources because my ds gets bored easily. My oldest always liked routines and knowing what’s expected, but youngest ds likes to vary activities, so I usually pull from different resources depending on the mood. 

I tried Writing Strands a long time ago before these newer versions were available. I like it and the conversational style of it, but my kids didn’t. Like HomeAgain, my kids needed more direction. The oldest didn’t understand what exactly was expected and my daughter would just write a lot whether it fit the assignment or not. It might be just right for your child though if he likes more freedom in his writing. My older kids needed help getting started with ideas and rubrics of what was expected.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Mona
Typos!

[LauraClark]

Oh, and for punctuation, we used Analytical Grammar Jr Mechanics last year and that was very helpful.

[Ellie]

I love the original Writing Strands (by Dave Marks, published by National Writing Institute). If I were hsing again, I would make every effort to do Writing Strands through high school.

I knew the author (and his wife), and had the opportunity to talk with them quite a bit. Perhaps that colors my opinion. 🙂

Each level is approximately a semester's worth of writing instruction, one level per year. You schedule it however it works for you; when we did it, we followed the lesson, broken down into days; Dave's recommendation was to make copies of the assessment page, and to staple it to all the papers that go with that lesson. That will make it easier for you to evaluate, at the end of the book, how your dc has improved. Anyway, after we finished one lesson, however many days that took, we did some other English-related stuff, then went back to WS for the next lesson.

Dave didn't think it was necessary to have separate grammar instruction; I disagree (he would laugh if I said that to him), and we did Easy Grammar Plus, one year of grammar; makes it easier to have discussions ("DC, you used the objective pronoun here when you should have used the subjective," as opposed to "That doesn't sound right; I don't know why, but it doesn't.").

Writing Strands doesn't do gimmicks; it doesn't teach the dc how to write paragraphs...it teaches them how to write. The instruction is straight and to the point. My kind of instruction. 🙂

[Lori D.]

On 4/29/2023 at 6:48 PM, Ting Tang said:

I know many of us are not big fans of Master Books for various reasons, but how do you all feel about Writing Strands? ...

The original Writing Strands was a big bust here.

Not enough instruction for the student nor enough help for the teacher, and it assumes the student is a self-motivated learner. I had a writing-hater and a struggling writer so WS was totally not a fit here.

Also, writing comes directly out of thinking, so if if you have a student who struggles to understand how to flesh out an idea, or how to structure and logically flow their writing, understanding how a paragraph works would be very helpful. And it sounds like Writing Strands does not teach that.

 

On 4/29/2023 at 6:48 PM, Ting Tang said:

...I really love the idea of the progymnasmata.  I've been looking at Cottage Press quite a bit, but my two older boys have their challenges.  MCT writing didn't work for my 5th grader this year.  I would say he barely wrote anything.  I admit that.  Neither did my 4th grader, but he has some learning challenges and just finished up AAR...

Writing Tales might be a good fit for your current 4th grader/rising 5th grader. It is based on the first level of the ancient progymnasmata, is very clear, gentle, and step by step. If he has some LDs, then maybe start with level 1 (gr. 3/4); if he's progressing and catching up, then maybe level 2 (gr. 4/5). Check out the samples (on the page I linked) to see if that might be a fit, and also what the 2 levels are like. Note: Writing Tales DOES include some grammar (in the context of writing), including some practice on punctuation.

For your current 5th grader/rising 6th grader, Jump In might be a useful bridge between WWE and WWS, or to go from what you did for writing this year before moving to WWS in 7th/8th grade (which is when many posters on these boards say their students are ready for WWS). Jump In is not progymnasmata-based, BUT, it might be a good fit as that extra instruction and practice before moving into WWS.

Jump In is informal in tone, and written to the student, but you can easily do the instruction portion together so you're getting the information / instruction. Jump In covers paragraph and short multi-paragraph essays in all 4 areas of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive) with a variety of assignment types. While it is designed to take 2 years (after each unit you do 4 weeks of "free writing" from the prompts), but we ended up skipping most of the free writes (prompts were very similar and a lot of them were very "lame"), and just focused on the main meat of the program. Jump In was a good fit for my struggling writer, as it helped him see how to think of what to say, and how to organize his thoughts.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ting Tang]

@Lori D. Thank you for your response to both my posts!  I've been looking more at Writing Tales for my younger son.  It sounds like Writing Strands from MB might not be the best fit, nor would the original.  I'm just not sure about him.  He challenges me daily.  Sigh.  And today is one of those days!

[Lori D.]

52 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

 ... I've been looking more at Writing Tales for my younger son.  It sounds like Writing Strands from MB might not be the best fit, nor would the original.  I'm just not sure about him.  He challenges me daily.  Sigh.  And today is one of those days!

The nice thing is that you can find an early edition (pre-Master Books) of Writing Strands pretty cheap, so you can always pick that up and have it handy if you find that it is useful to dive into it from time to time. Level 3 is what you would want.

Challenging, yes. Totally understand that! Slow and steady, even if it's just a few sentences a day. I had to very carefully restrict how much writing my struggling writer did each day so he wouldn't rebel or shut down. Several very short concentrated bursts each day, interspersed with non-writing learning, is what we would do. I had to count handwriting practice as one of those bursts because he struggled so much with the physical act of writing, in addition to spelling, as well as the act of writing (thinking of what to say, then getting it out of his brain, down his arm, and onto paper). We did a lot of Grammar and Spelling on the whiteboard or orally rather than by writing -- that was so laborious for him, he wasn't learning anything because he was struggling with the handwriting so much. He was about 2 grade levels "behind" the average for writing for many years.

Lots of patience and persistence. Lots of mom mentoring and running alongside. Eventually you'll get there! 😄 It just may mean having to develop your own writing, using bits and pieces of many things. 😉 That is what it took for us, anyways. Wordsmith Apprentice in 7th grade, and then Jump In in 8th grade were the only 2 writing programs that ever worked mostly as-written for him. (Writing Tales wasn't out at the time our DSs were in elementary grades.)

Edited May 1, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

@Lori D. Thank you for your response to both my posts!  I've been looking more at Writing Tales for my younger son.  It sounds like Writing Strands from MB might not be the best fit, nor would the original.  I'm just not sure about him.  He challenges me daily.  Sigh.  And today is one of those days!

 

On 4/30/2023 at 6:50 AM, Ting Tang said:

Thanks! I will need to see how the old version compares to the new one.  Part of me wonders if I need a writing curriculum, but if someone else defines the parameters, maybe that will make it easier on me, lol.

The Master Books editions add stuff to the original Writing Strands, such as discussions about spiritual things. Not saying those are good or bad, only that they are not in the original. Also, the high school level books incorporate "Reading Strands"/literature.

[Ellie]

On 4/30/2023 at 5:33 AM, LauraClark said:

We use the old writing stands (oldest is 11 and in book 6) and have used them for 5 years. I love them because the writing assignments can be a bit open ended, which fits our family well. Writing is a teacher intensive subject, in my opinion. My 11yo can read the assignment and write it on his own, but I have to read it and go over it with him. I'm not sure a teacher manual would help. 

Dave Marks expected the teacher to read her student's work and go over it with him. Without feedback, how will someone's writing improve?

[Ellie]

8 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Also, writing comes directly out of thinking, so if if you have a student who struggles to understand how to flesh out an idea, or how to structure and logically flow their writing, understanding how a paragraph works would be very helpful. And it sounds like Writing Strands does not teach that.

What Writing Strands (the original) does not do is teach children how to write paragraphs. It teaches them how to write. At some point they learn what paragraphs are and all that, but it isn't the object of the writing. WS also doesn't teach rules such as "Each paragraph must have [insert favorite number] of sentences," because in real-life writing, paragraphs just don't always have--or need to have--a specific number of sentences. Or that there must be [insert favorite number] of rough drafts. Or the five-paragraph essay (it teaches essay writing, just not a thing called a "five-paragraph essay.").

[Lori D.]

38 minutes ago, Ellie said:

What Writing Strands (the original) does not do is teach children how to write paragraphs. It teaches them how to write. At some point they learn what paragraphs are and all that, but it isn't the object of the writing. WS also doesn't teach rules such as "Each paragraph must have [insert favorite number] of sentences," because in real-life writing, paragraphs just don't always have--or need to have--a specific number of sentences...

That is not a method of teaching writing that I have encountered before -- that writing is all about the paragraph, and that paragraphs only have a certain number of sentences, so I can't really speak to the bolded part.

I was not trying to "dis" you or Writing Strands -- I was just quoting your first post, to help OP in deciding what might work for her:

On 4/30/2023 at 3:46 PM, Ellie said:

...Writing Strands doesn't do gimmicks; it doesn't teach the dc how to write paragraphs...it teaches them how to write. The instruction is straight and to the point.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

I was not trying to "dis" you or Writing Strands -- I was just quoting your first post, to help OP in deciding what might work for her:

I know you weren't. 🙂 

[LauraClark]

7 hours ago, Ellie said:

Dave Marks expected the teacher to read her student's work and go over it with him. Without feedback, how will someone's writing improve?

I agree. I was trying to have OP think about what it would look like to have a writing curriculum that has an answers book or is more self directed-I just can't really fathom what that would look like. (But, also, writing is not my favorite thing, it is one of the things that involves the most undirected teacher interaction, and that definitely overwhelms me sometimes. I commiserate with those who wish it were different 😉).

[Ting Tang]

As for "answers,"  a video review I watched said there were a few questions that needed answers in the MB curriculum.  I had no idea what that could be for, lol.  

I'm still pretty lost on what to do, to be honest.  😞  Some of my potential plans feel like way too much with four kids, but I know writing is something I need to focus on.

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

As for "answers,"  a video review I watched said there were a few questions that needed answers in the MB curriculum.  I had no idea what that could be for, lol. 

The MB editions add literature, so there are discussions regarding specific, required works.

Which, frankly, is one reason I prefer the original: it's just writing.

[SilverMoon]

Perhaps Winning With Writing from Jackris for that oldest one. It's open and go and not intensive for you or the kid.

 

6 Trait Writing from Evan Moor has been fabulous for my dysgraphic 12yo this year. It gets him working with and talking about various concepts easily, due to its gentle, unintimidating approach. If you just hand it to a neurotypical kid it's more of a supplement, but using the extra teaching and writing assignments that are only in the teacher pages can make it fuller. You mentioned something easier could get him writing more, which made me think of it. 

[caffeineandbooks]

9 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

  Some of my potential plans feel like way too much with four kids, but I know writing is something I need to focus on.

Even though it might feel overwhelming, this is a great place to be at!  You can see clearly where your energy needs to go.  Nobody can successfully focus on math AND writing AND geography AND AND AND at the same time.  It is totally okay to decide that the next school year will have a writing focus, and that you might choose a lighter schedule for some of the other subjects to accommodate that.  Putting the effort into writing now could be transformative for history and science and such the next year bc your kids will have the tools they need for output in those areas.  You're not letting them down if you devote a larger portion of your effort just to writing; you're meeting them where there at.  It shows you're a good educator, not a failing one *hugs*

[Ting Tang]

@caffeineandbooks  thank you so much for these encouraging words!

 

[Momto6inIN]

For my natural writers, the old Writing Strands was great. As is W&R, which I am using currently with my 5th grader.

For my kids who needed a little more guidance we have used Wordsmith and IEW successfully.

As a natural writer myself, when I first started hs'ing I found it difficult to teach my kids step by step how to do somthing that is intuitive and easy for me to do. IEW helped me to break down the process for them better. Now that I know that process, I can use other curricula with that knowledge in my back pocket.

8filltheheart had a curriculum called Treasured Conversations that was really good at that too, but I don't think it's available anymore. Maybe worth checking out?

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

For my natural writers, the old Writing Strands was great. As is W&R, which I am using currently with my 5th grader.

For my kids who needed a little more guidance we have used Wordsmith and IEW successfully.

As a natural writer myself, when I first started hs'ing I found it difficult to teach my kids step by step how to do somthing that is intuitive and easy for me to do. IEW helped me to break down the process for them better. Now that I know that process, I can use other curricula with that knowledge in my back pocket...

Totally agree -- I am a natural writer, too. I even did a lot of editing of other people's writing of different types for years before homeschooling. And I, too, found it was really hard to teach/comment on my own children's writing -- esp. having one who hated writing and one who struggled with writing due to LDs.

But I think for ANY homeschooling parent, there is a big learning curve in how to teach writing, or guide your student in the process, and in how to comment / when to comment / how much to comment or provide feedback. And many homeschoolers feel very lost about what makes a piece of writing good, or what is even missing -- which makes it extremely difficult for those parents to go over the writing or work on the writing WITH the student, when you don't know what you're looking for.

So I agree that most parents need something with some teacher guidance at the start of teaching writing to give them an overall map to teaching or guiding their student through the writing process. Also agreeing with you that IEW and/or Wordsmith can be that help for some families. I've also seen families on these boards click well with CAP's Writing & Rhetoric series.

These 2 resources for teaching writing have been mentioned on these boards as helpful PARENT resources:
- The Writing Revolution (Hochman & Wexler)
- Engaging Ideas (Bean)

For very specific tips and ideas (geared for classroom use, but can be adapted for home use):
- The Writing Strategies Book (Serravallo)

And for helping develop specific areas of writing (elementary/middle school ages, some of these resources might help:
- Four Square Writing Method -- I linked the gr. 4-6 book; I wouldn't go lower than that
- Twisting Arms: Teaching Students How To Write to Persuade (DiPrince)
- Evan Moore: Daily 6 Trait Writing (by grade level) -- grade 5, grade 6
 

5 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

... 8filltheheart had a curriculum called Treasured Conversations that was really good at that too, but I don't think it's available anymore. Maybe worth checking out?

Totally agree. I think Treasured Conversations would have been exactly what OP is looking for, too. Alas, no longer available, due to her state's legal bureaucracy that made it too difficult to keep running as a small business.

Here's a 2021 thread with additional writing ideas: "Writing after Treasured Conversations".

Edited May 3, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all---oh no, I tried to look that up once, and no wonder it wasn't available on the website from 8.

I'm going to spend more time researching suggestions, from this thread, my other, and others.

 

I still have no clue what we are doing for anything next year.  Eeks!

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you all---oh no, I tried to look that up once, and no wonder it wasn't available on the website from 8.

I'm going to spend more time researching suggestions, from this thread, my other, and others.

I still have no clue what we are doing for anything next year.  Eeks!

Hugs and encouragement.

I'll just throw in that, for writing in the elementary grades does not have to be so much effort. Pick something you know you all can and will do at a small bite a day is a way to make sure that move you keep moving forward right now. Pick what will help each of your DSs (and YOU) successfully do THAT.

Don't pressure yourself that you have to find THE ONE AND ONLY RIGHT curricula for each student. "Just keep swimming" (Dory), and by being consistent, you find that, over time, you've crossed the ocean! 😄 

For me, with DS#2 who had the LDs, at the grade 5 level, I just committed to making sure we worked for about 15-20 minutes each day on writing, 4-5x/week. I used Andrew Pudewa's idea of breaking it into a small manageable bit a day -- a "stage a day" of the writing process (brainstorm; organize; rough draft; revise; proof-edit; final version). Or fill in a few answers a day towards a book report. Or write a few sentences a day.

And by the end of the week, you discover you have a completed writing assignment. Or a finished letter to Grandma. Or you have a finished book report. Or you have the first paragraph to a longer report on the Ancient Egyptians. etc.

And if you are working on a longer piece of writing, you find that after 4-5 weeks, you have completed that longer piece of writing, one bite at a time. One chunk per week. It all adds up, without overwhelming. QUALITY vs. quantity. 😉

Edited May 3, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Hugs and encouragement.

I'll just throw in that, for writing in the elementary grades does not have to be so much effort. Pick something you know you all can and will do at a small bite a day is a way to make sure that move you keep moving forward right now. Pick what will help each of your DSs (and YOU) successfully do THAT.

Don't pressure yourself that you have to find THE ONE AND ONLY RIGHT curricula for each student. "Just keep swimming" (Dory), and by being consistent, you find that, over time, you've crossed the ocean! 😄 

For me, with DS#2 who had the LDs, at the grade 5 level, I just committed to making sure we worked for about 15-20 minutes each day on writing, 4-5x/week. I used Andrew Pudewa's idea of breaking it into a small manageable bit a day -- a "stage a day" of the writing process (brainstorm; organize; rough draft; revise; proof-edit; final version). Or fill in a few answers a day towards a book report. Or write a few sentences a day.

And by the end of the week, you discover you have a completed writing assignment. Or a finished letter to Grandma. Or you have a finished book report. Or you have the first paragraph to a longer report on the Ancient Egyptians. etc.

And if you are working on a longer piece of writing, you find that after 4-5 weeks, you have completed that longer piece of writing, one bite at a time. One chunk per week. It all adds up, without overwhelming. QUALITY vs. quantity. 😉

Thank you so much!  We are definitely not doing that.  😞  I do feel like a curriculum would help me stay on track.  I am actually kinda ready to be done with the school year.  We are almost there, with a lot of it completed.  

 

[Green Bean]

On 5/2/2023 at 12:00 PM, SilverMoon said:

Perhaps Winning With Writing from Jackris for that oldest one. It's open and go and not intensive for you or the kid.

 

6 Trait Writing from Evan Moor has been fabulous for my dysgraphic 12yo this year. It gets him working with and talking about various concepts easily, due to its gentle, unintimidating approach. If you just hand it to a neurotypical kid it's more of a supplement, but using the extra teaching and writing assignments that are only in the teacher pages can make it fuller. You mentioned something easier could get him writing more, which made me think of it. 

I'm seconding this. Daily, bite sized, and doable.

https://jackrispublishing.com/collections/winning-with-writing

Did I miss a discussion of CAP's W&R series? My kids enjoyed it after WWE. It is rather wordy, though.

Writing Tales only has the 2 levels then suggests Classical Writing as a followup. That does not mean you shouldn't consider it, of course. Just know going into it that you will need to find another program. No biggie! We homeschool Moms do that all the time!

Edited May 7, 2023 by Green Bean

[mathmarm]

My one true love for writing instruction is a 30 year old series designed for public schools but usable in a home school setting. There is a placement test and you will have to get the Teachers Presentation Book and the students Textbook for the level that you need, but SRAs Reasoning and Writing has been a godsend for our family. We go at the kids pace and through writing it masterfully covers grammar, composition, logical reasoning and argumentation.

It teaches a few sentence patterns, so we do intentionally teach additional sentence patterns throughout, but I'm so happy with the guidance and framework that it gives the teacher and the student. My kids could write and proofread their own writing within a few weeks of using RAW C. 

I've written a long explanation of level C before, so I'm just going to link to that. https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/710466-during-the-first-few-weeks-of-the-preschool-i-distilled-a-general-rule-about-the-relationship-between-problems-and-solutions/?do=findComment&comment=8995962
 

[8filltheheart]

@Ting Tang I've been reading your posts the past couple of years, and unfortunately, I suspected that MCT would not be a good fit for your homeschool.  

Before you spend more $$, you might want to look at Maxwell's School Composition.  That is a link to a free copy of the text online.  It is a very old book, but equally, it is systematic and provides systematic skill building assignments.   I had not seen the book until well after I published my book.  Its methodology is very similar to how I have always intuitively taught my kids.  You can read the book with your ds and use the assignments as written or to generate assignments that fit his interests.

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

@Ting Tang I've been reading your posts the past couple of years, and unfortunately, I suspected that MCT would not be a good fit for your homeschool.  

Before you spend more $$, you might want to look at Maxwell's School Composition.  That is a link to a free copy of the text online.  It is a very old book, but equally, it is systematic and provides systematic skill building assignments.   I had not seen the book until well after I published my book.  Its methodology is very similar to how I have always intuitively taught my kids.  You can read the book with your ds and use the assignments as written or to generate assignments that fit his interests.

I love the grammar, but the other components aren’t a great fit for us. I’ll take a look at your resource! I did find something called Classical Quills that intrigued me. The other part of me wonders if I should just forego a curriculum and focus on narrations. I do face a free progym outline a classical school gave to me I could use. 

[Green Bean]

Someone on the high school board made a great post about teaching writing to her daughter. She said to quit trying and focus on super grammar skills. I spit my water out laughing at that. Let me see if I can link...Nope can't find it. My bookmark got erased. I think maybe LoriD posted in the same thread. Maybe she can find it?

But this thread, particularly the comment by royspeed about halfway down, might be helpful.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Green Bean

[Nm.]

Super grammar skills has helped my two with writing.  Isn’t that what SWB recommends?

[8filltheheart]

There is no way my kids could have learned to write by studying grammar. Grammar is the language that helps in discussing editing and improving individual sentences, but the writing process itself has required them to develop a different set of skills. From my perspective it would be like saying I could learn physics from learning math. Math is essential for physics, but I still have to study physics.

[Nm.]

I think he’s only in 5th.  I’m content with just rod and staff until 6th (which does have “writing” ) and adding in some writing after they have the basics down pat.  To each their own.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Nm.

[8filltheheart]

15 minutes ago, Nm. said:

I think he’s only in 5th.  I’m content with just rod and staff until 6th (which does have “writing” ) and adding in some writing after they have the basics down pat.  To each their own.

My response was to GB who mentioned a high schooler.  I don't think anyone should panic with a 5th grader.  But, yes, I still think 5th graders need to be writing and developing their writing skills.

[Green Bean]

3 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

There is no way my kids could have learned to write by studying grammar. Grammar is the language that helps in discussing editing and improving individual sentences, but the writing process itself has required them to develop a different set of skills. From my perspective it would be like saying I could learn physics from learning math. Math is essential for physics, but I still have to study physics.

Totally agree with you. That's why I laughed at the quit suggestion. But hey, if that worked for her kid, great for her!

[Ellie]

14 hours ago, Nm. said:

I think he’s only in 5th.  I’m content with just rod and staff until 6th (which does have “writing” ) and adding in some writing after they have the basics down pat.  To each their own.

R&S absolutely teaches writing. 🙂

[Ting Tang]

My son is entering 6th grade.  I really do love the MCT grammar, but we used the entire Town level, and since the writing didn't quite work for us, I felt like we had a very heavy grammar and vocabulary year.  Maybe everything was so heavy that it was hard for even me to find the time and focus to work on writing.  Blackbird & Company told me grammar is secondary, but then I have read for some a heavy grammar focus improves writing. So this is why I am wondering if we should move away from MCT in its entirety.  I have an unopened Voyage level that I could sell because I bought it before their price increases.  But if I open it and only use a small part, then I am probably out a lot more money, lol.  It sounds silly, but it was expensive, so that has been on my mind.  I certainly do not want him to lose the higher level grammar knowledge he has, though, either.  

But regardless, I think he needs to do more writing.

I was considering a CM approach to next year and just have him do a lot of narrating from his academics.  Don't buy a curriculum or use this outline I've attached as I like the idea of the progymnasmata exercises. 

This is a kid who is very bright but keeps telling us he wants to become a truck driver (he loves big machinery and trucks and seems to have a romantic view of travel by being a truck driver, lol).  So he thinks so much of this is unimportant.

Progymnastmata 04032020 (1) (2).docx

Edited May 14, 2023 by Ting Tang

[8filltheheart]

I would not use Voyage. There is no concrete writing instruction, so unless you know how to flesh out the concepts or he can incorporate skills from reading examples, it wont explicitly teach writing.

I'm perplexed by the experience of intensity with the grammar. MCT's grammar is the weakest component. I think you could find much cheaper and more in depth grammar. The vocab, otoh, is fabulous. 

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

I would not use Voyage. There is no concrete writing instruction, so unless you know how to flesh out the concepts or he can incorporate skills from reading examples, it wont explicitly teach writing.

I'm perplexed by the experience of intensity with the grammar. MCT's grammar is the weakest component. I think you could find much cheaper and more in depth grammar. The vocab, otoh, is fabulous. 

I like how the grammar is frontloaded, and then the student does the four level analysis.  But I also have very little experience with other curriculums.  I was looking at Classical Roots in lieu of MCTs grammar.  I should probably just try to sell the level because we're not doing the literature, either.

[caffeineandbooks]

6 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I have an unopened Voyage level that I could sell because I bought it before their price increases.  But if I open it and only use a small part, then I am probably out a lot more money, lol.  It sounds silly, but it was expensive, so that has been on my mind. 

I have been in a similar position, buying curriculum only to realise it wasn't a good fit for my kids.  Bluntly, we already wasted the money on a product that's not a good fit.  It would be foolish to also waste time and energy trying to pretend it *is* a good fit and using it anyway.

[Ting Tang]

@8filltheheart what grammar do you recommend? I’m looking at SCM and it doesn’t go to the extent MCT did for his grade level. SCM pairs grammar and spelling, so not sure what to do there. 

[A.M.]

You mention having looked at WWE and finding it overwhelming.

I wonder whether you have had a look at the WWE 4-year guide that you can use with your own selection of texts? I explains the whole method.

I found this useful for my youngest who is very clear about the books she likes, and I also wanted to be able to adjust the levels.

One of our favourite resources for text selections are the Mcguffey readers, but we also use passages from whatever she is reading.

 

[8filltheheart]

44 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

@8filltheheart what grammar do you recommend? I’m looking at SCM and it doesn’t go to the extent MCT did for his grade level. SCM pairs grammar and spelling, so not sure what to do there. 

My suggestion would be either the old Analytical Grammar book  (for a 6th grader I would not do JAG ) or perhaps Winston Grammar. Those are the ones I'm more familiar with. I learned from both of them (though I disagree with some of AG's answers.)

[Lori D.]

@Ting Tang -- I fall much along similar lines as @8filltheheart about teaching writing. I did need more curriculum help for writing when I was homeschooling our DSs, but when they were in high school, and since they have graduated and I've been teaching Writing & Lit. to middle/high school students at our homeschool co-op, I've learned a TON through much research, and was able to develop what we needed.

All that to say -- I totally agree with 8filltheheart about Grammar being a tool that assists in editing and improving writing. Grammar is like the mechanic who looks under the hood of the car to see how the engine is running, and if something needs tweaking or repair -- but Grammar doesn't actually drive the car. Writing drives the car and goes places. 😉

 

On 4/29/2023 at 6:48 PM, Ting Tang said:

...I really love the idea of the progymnasmata... but my two older boys have their challenges.  MCT writing didn't work for my 5th grader this year.  I would say he barely wrote anything... Neither did my 4th grader, but he has some learning challenges...

... I'm wondering if a program... Something simple and direct [would work]..."  

... I'm wondering if I go with something "easier" for my oldest, he will be inclined to write more...

 

On 4/30/2023 at 4:50 AM, Ting Tang said:

Thanks! I will need to see how the old version compares to the new one.  Part of me wonders if I need a writing curriculum, but if someone else defines the parameters, maybe that will make it easier on me, lol.

Going back to your original post here -- this screams Wordsmith Apprentice to me for your rising 6th grade DS, and Writing Tales (which is progymnasmata based) for your rising 5th grade son.

Wordsmith Apprentice is gentle, do as big or little of a "bite" a day that works for you, and it is short (done in less than 1 year), so you can EASILY, set it aside for 1 day/week to focus on narrations, or set it aside for a week or two at a time and do a short factual report from a science or history topic being studied.

WA is informal in tone with a silly/cheesy humor that appeals to kids of that age. It is written directly to the student with a fun "cub reporter" theme, and it does not require much from the parent. It covers all 4 types of writing (Descriptive, Narrative, Expository, Persuasive), and goes from sentences to paragraphs to longer pieces of writing. There is some coverage of grammar (parts of speech) in context of writing.

WA is the one thing we did for writing in the elementary/middle school years that both my writing-hater DS and my writing struggler DS actually enjoyed doing. It was not a fight to have them work for 20-30 minutes at a time on WA.

Wordsmith Apprentice sample pages - FREE download

JMO, but from everything I've read in your multiple threads on writing, I would suggest that just getting into a regular writing routine would be the most important goal for next year, and once your DSs clear that hurdle, then you can consider if something that is more progymnasmata would be a good fit for you all or not.

 

re: Spelling
Since it sounds like Spelling was combined with your MCT Grammar, you would likely need to do something else for that. Spelling can be covered separately in 10 minutes a day (provided student doesn't have an LD in that area), and Grammar can also come separately in 15-20 minutes a day, maybe 3x/week -- again, Grammar is a tool in assistance to speaking, writing, and learning foreign language -- not the ultimate goal subject itself.

8FilltheHeart has suggested How to Teach Spelling. If your student is not a struggling speller, then Natural Speller is an easy one to use. Megawords (grades 4+) is great for teaching how to break words into syllables for spelling attack, and what the patterns are for syllables and vowel pairs. Megawords also has great vocabulary words, which makes it very nice to use all the way into high school (which is what I did for DS#2 with spelling LDs). If your rising 5th grader has an LD with spelling, then I would wait on Megawords.

re: Grammar
8FilltheHeart suggested Winston Grammar series, or old Analytical Grammar. We found that original AG to be a real drill-and-kill, and I was not feeling that we absolutely HAD to have diagramming -- again, it is a useful tool, but not everyone "sees" how language works through diagramming. Parsing and discussion of how words and phrases are working in a sentence can also work well (that is the route we went, rather than formal diagramming). We dropped AG after about 6 weeks -- but every student is different -- looking at samples might help you decide whether or not it is a fit for your students -- or might be a fit later on in late middle school as a final grammar review/wrap-up.

We did use all 3 levels of Winston. I adapted them so that we were parsing and discussing. There is NO coverage of punctuation and capitalization. However, you can easily adapt and do Winston on the whiteboard, or orally, or physically by using the "cue cards", if you have a writing-phobic student, so that you can take handwriting out of the picture and focus on grammar, as needed.

Winston Basic = 8 parts of speech; subject & predicate
Winston Word Works = word usage
Winston Advanced = types of clauses and phrases

If you need a specific punctuation info/practice resource, you might look for a specific workbook to practice that. Examples:
- Grammaropolis: The Punctuation Workbook (gr. 3-5)
- Professor Grammar's Punctuation Packet (gr. 5/6)
- Evan Moore Skill Sharpener: Grammar & Punctuation (gr. 4)  (gr. 5)  (gr. 6)

Take Five Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing 
We used this in the late elementary grades to practice GUM (Grammar Usage and Mechanics)in the context of editing with We also used some of the Editor in Chief passages. (GUM focuses on Grammar Usage -- subject/verb agreement, pronoun/antecedent agreement, using the correct homophone, etc. + Mechanics of punctuation and capitalization)

IEW's Fix-It series for Grammar
Grammar in the context of writing, and proofing/improving writing. I often hear good reports on as well, so that might be one to look at, to see if it's a fit for you.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Lori D.

[Ting Tang]

@Lori D.  Thank you so much for this wealth of information!  I have definitely considered Writing Tales for my middle kids. I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate for a 6th grader?

He's been using Rod & Staff spelling. He did not learn to read through phonics study; maybe he is intuitive in that regard.  But we're both a bit bored with it, even though many think it is a great program. And I still don't think he absorbs the rules.  I've looked at megawords.  One would indeed use that to replace a spelling curriculum?

Now I am recalling why I ruled Winston out, due to the lack of punctuation instruction.  But I do think one of my kids might enjoy it.  My son having been through the town level of MCT has a pretty good grasp of phrases, clauses, etc.  I have enjoyed that part of MCT the most.  The vocabulary well, we liked this history aspect of it, but it uses examples of the words from many great works of literature. Sometimes it just felt very heavy, pulling sentences from so many books he may not read for a long time.  Classical Roots looked like a more succinct replacement.  But I hate to keep the whole next level for grammar alone, especially if I could sell it for what I paid. 

I'll need to take a look at some of your other suggestions. Thank you again!

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, my kids dont diagram AG. We do it orally and they tell me part of speech and what it modifies. After they give the answer, we look at the diagram in the answer key.  It is the best of both bc they have to be able to break the sentence down through oral parsing and then going over it diagrammed.