Would you recommend Saxon 5/4 for a child who doesn't have math facts memorized?

[alpinegrace]

Dealing with a 5th grade student, I gave her the 5/4 Saxon math placement test, and she scored 15, which firmly places her in the 5/4 program (a score of 16 would have recommened me give her the 6/7 placement test). However, I know she doesn't have her multiplication or division facts memorized at all really. 

If you have experience with Saxon 5/4, can you recommend placement for her. Is there enough fact review in 5/4 to allow her to continue, or will she really strugle if she doesn't have those memorized yet? Should we do something else beforehand to make sure those facts are memorized? 

Thanks!

[freesia]

I think it would be ok if you let her use a multiplication chart.  Then I would put her on something like xtra math (Is that still a thing?) --or any online drill program 15 minutes a day.  There will also be daily fact drills that will help build speed.  I'd probably wait until she has the basic facts down to do the speed drills, though, but maybe not if she found it motivating to track her progress. It depends on the child.

[LinRTX]

Saxon used to have daily fact practice with 5/4. It has been a long time since I used it (my youngest just graduated college), but I remember the "dreaded" timed fact test everyday. It was how many you could do in a minute. I just gave her the sheet and she worked on filling it out. Eventually I timed it, but never just gave her a minute. She tried to beat her previous time. I was working on memorization, not speed. It starts with addition/ subtraction facts so if she know those you could do multiplication/ division flash cards for the first part of the program.

[alpinegrace]

Thank you for the replies, very helpful! Yes, she knows her addition and subtraction facts, but she is just really quite slow with the multiplication/division.

Apparently Xtramath is a thing! I just looked that up, so that's a great option, thank you! 

[Janeway]

No. But then again, I would not recommend Saxon for any child, math facts memorized or not. It is slow and laborous and fails to teach critical thinking. Most problems are rote and when the child faces a different format, the child often struggles, unless they were otherwise naturally gifted in the area. It is much like teaching spelling by making the child copy the words 50 times each to try to make them memorize it but never explaining phonics or word roots or anything. 

[HomeAgain]

5/4 was hell for my child.  A lack of math facts would make it even harder.  The program focuses heavily on them and the day will be very long if she is not fluent. An average lesson in that book took about an hour.

 

Is Saxon your only choice? 

[LinRTX]

6 minutes ago, Janeway said:

But then again, I would not recommend Saxon for any child, math facts memorized or not. It is slow and laborous and fails to teach critical thinking.

And the interesting thing is my child was not what I considered gifted in math, but the Saxon way worked well for her. She graduated in May with a math major, finished with an honors degree and a 4.0 gpa. She now works as a research mathematician with the government.

I think the "conceptual" math programs like beast and singapore would have killed any chance of this. She would have dissolved into a puddle of anguish.

[alpinegrace]

Ooof

She definitely doesn't like math. We originally started out with Saxon 1 and she really fought me on that. It was painful for both of us. After awhile we switched to Singapore Primary Math and she got through Math 1A - 2A pretty good. 2B started to get really difficult about halfway through, to the point of tears everyday. So we regressed back to Saxon 2 and have gotten through most of Saxon 3 now. I was worried she wouldn't be ready for 5/4 becuase she doesn't have all the facts memorized, hence giving her the placement test.

I doubt an hour a day will be feasible for us, as she is the oldest and has younger school-age siblings. I did have her try Nicole the Math Lady to go along with Saxon 3 and that was definitely an epic fail. She loved the jokes and memes, but that was really all she got out of it. So I know she needs one on one teaching. I'm also worried about switching again because I feel like we will lose more time so I have just stuck with it at this point.

Her younger sister is a mathy kid though and uses Beast Academy. So she decided she wanted to do that as well (she really just wanted to make her own beast!) and is currently working in level 2. I do feel like that makes her think quite a bit.

[alpinegrace]

1 hour ago, LinRTX said:

And the interesting thing is my child was not what I considered gifted in math, but the Saxon way worked well for her. She graduated in May with a math major, finished with an honors degree and a 4.0 gpa. She now works as a research mathematician with the government.

I think the "conceptual" math programs like beast and singapore would have killed any chance of this. She would have dissolved into a puddle of anguish.

Congrats! That's so encouraging to hear! 😊 I doubt my daughter will major in math, as she is already a bit of a history buff, but I suppose we never know! 

Did you use Saxon all the way through?

[EKS]

I wouldn't recommend Saxon 5/4 ever.

That said, if you are wanting to use Saxon, you can certainly use it with a child who isn't totally solid on the facts.  That's what the fact sheets are for.

[LinRTX]

33 minutes ago, alpinegrace said:

Did you use Saxon all the way through?

I used Saxon from grade 2 through Calculus for 2 of mine. Another went through the Advanced Math book. And my first did not start Saxon until Algebra 2 (big mistake), but went through Calculus.

 

And my math major daughter -- she hated math until Calculus. I thought she was going to do something in English or fine arts. She has competed on both the piano and with voice (only at the state level) and has written a novel (but did not pursue publishing because of a family tragedy). If you would have aske me when she was in 5/4 if she would major in math, I would have said absolutely not. She was my slowest to grasp the concepts at that age.

[EKS]

NM

Edited October 1, 2022 by EKS

[HomeAgain]

11 hours ago, LinRTX said:

And the interesting thing is my child was not what I considered gifted in math, but the Saxon way worked well for her. She graduated in May with a math major, finished with an honors degree and a 4.0 gpa. She now works as a research mathematician with the government.

I think the "conceptual" math programs like beast and singapore would have killed any chance of this. She would have dissolved into a puddle of anguish.

I think there's a vast gulf in both procedural and conceptual offerings.

We moved from Saxon to Math U See.  It was much more conceptual but not a lot of throwing-into-the-deep-end mentality like Beast.  My oldest thrived and went into engineering.  He went through pre-algebra and Stewardship during his last year of MUS, and by the time he had finished the 'alphabet' books he had developed a love for the subject that was not there for him in Saxon.  He developed a competency and that fueled a whole new world for him.  Staying in Saxon would have murdered his love, but a conceptual program worked well.

[mathmarm]

@alpinegrace, you can preview the entire Saxon Math 5/4 (and Math 6/5) book online if you google it. A lot of schools have made the PDF of the books available online.

[alpinegrace]

On 9/30/2022 at 4:35 PM, LinRTX said:

I used Saxon from grade 2 through Calculus for 2 of mine. Another went through the Advanced Math book. And my first did not start Saxon until Algebra 2 (big mistake), but went through Calculus.

 

And my math major daughter -- she hated math until Calculus. I thought she was going to do something in English or fine arts. She has competed on both the piano and with voice (only at the state level) and has written a novel (but did not pursue publishing because of a family tragedy). If you would have aske me when she was in 5/4 if she would major in math, I would have said absolutely not. She was my slowest to grasp the concepts at that age.

Thank you so much! You've been very helpful!

[Malam]

On 10/1/2022 at 5:27 AM, HomeAgain said:

Stewardship

What kind of math class is that?

[HomeAgain]

11 hours ago, Malam said:

What kind of math class is that?

Personal finance.  DS really liked it, then went on to do Dave Ramsey with his high school. 

[Malam]

On 10/3/2022 at 6:21 AM, HomeAgain said:

Dave Ramsey with his high school

His high school used Dave Ramsey's course and  allowed homeschoolers to attend part-time?

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, Malam said:

His high school used Dave Ramsey's course and  allowed homeschoolers to attend part-time?

No, he went to high school in 10th grade.  His school was a very small charter school and they used DR.  I think they did allow part time homeschoolers but were iffy about it.

The kid had a LOT of financial classes over his teen years.  Between Stewardship, DR, and Military Saves exercises, plus being surrounded by mentors who were willing to teach based on their experiences (his math teacher in high school taught to keep herself busy.  She owned a paper farm that didn't take her day-to-day skills)..between all of these, the child managed to grasp a very good foundation.

I'd do the same order all over again if youngest ds had the same opportunities.  His will be different, though.

[Ellie]

On 9/30/2022 at 5:55 PM, alpinegrace said:

Ooof

She definitely doesn't like math. We originally started out with Saxon 1 and she really fought me on that. It was painful for both of us. After awhile we switched to Singapore Primary Math and she got through Math 1A - 2A pretty good. 2B started to get really difficult about halfway through, to the point of tears everyday. So we regressed back to Saxon 2 and have gotten through most of Saxon 3 now. I was worried she wouldn't be ready for 5/4 becuase she doesn't have all the facts memorized, hence giving her the placement test.

I doubt an hour a day will be feasible for us, as she is the oldest and has younger school-age siblings. I did have her try Nicole the Math Lady to go along with Saxon 3 and that was definitely an epic fail. She loved the jokes and memes, but that was really all she got out of it. So I know she needs one on one teaching. I'm also worried about switching again because I feel like we will lose more time so I have just stuck with it at this point.

Her younger sister is a mathy kid though and uses Beast Academy. So she decided she wanted to do that as well (she really just wanted to make her own beast!) and is currently working in level 2. I do feel like that makes her think quite a bit.

The primary levels of Saxon math are nothing like Math 54 and up. Nothing. I would never use the primary levels.

If she tests into 54, then do that. If necessary, give her a times table chart so she doesn't get hung up on the math facts. Ideally, she would be good with up the 5s, but do what you can do. Give her a times table chart and call it good.

And you know the Golden Rule of Saxon, 54 and up: The student must do every.single.problem in every.single problem set. All of the problems were specifically written to be done; they aren't just more practice on concepts. In fact, 54, maybe also 65, have extra practice problems.

[Not_a_Number]

On 10/4/2022 at 9:36 AM, Ellie said:

And you know the Golden Rule of Saxon, 54 and up: The student must do every.single.problem in every.single problem set. All of the problems were specifically written to be done; they aren't just more practice on concepts. In fact, 54, maybe also 65, have extra practice problems.

Man, DD10 would have loathed math if I gave her a program like this.

Is the idea that kids who can't deal with this volume of problems shouldn't use this program? 

[EKS]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is the idea that kids who can't deal with this volume of problems shouldn't use this program? 

Correct placement in the program requires that the problems be easy enough for the student to do quickly and (relatively) painlessly. 

It's the perfect set up to get kids to turn off their brains, not remember concepts, not develop problem solving skills, and resist challenging work. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, EKS said:

Correct placement in the program requires that the problems be easy enough for the student to do quickly and (relatively) painlessly. 

It's the perfect set up to get kids to turn off their brains, not remember concepts, not develop problem solving skills, and resist challenging work. 

You have NO idea how my kid would respond to supposedly "painless" problems, lol. I think she finds boredom physically painful... 

[EKS]

51 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

You have NO idea how my kid would respond to supposedly "painless" problems, lol. I think she finds boredom physically painful... 

I know exactly how she would respond because I have one who was exactly like that!

Also, I've had recent experience with the college version of this with a linear algebra course.  Linear algebra actually has some pretty interesting and even trippy aspects to it, but instead of focusing on that, it seemed like it was ALL row operations.  It was definitely painful.  

[seemesew]

Well, we have used Saxon for over 6 years and I'm very happy with it! My kids are doing very well and i don't think conceptual math would have worked with them, in fact i know it wouldn't from experience. Those who say they would never use it, are taking kind of a strong stance considering it's very successful for many of us 😉 Anyways, my oldest has used it from 7/6 through the advanced mathmatics books and is doing great at college!

Edited October 10, 2022 by seemesew

[seemesew]

On 10/4/2022 at 10:36 AM, Ellie said:

And you know the Golden Rule of Saxon, 54 and up: The student must do every.single.problem in every.single problem set. All of the problems were specifically written to be done; they aren't just more practice on concepts. In fact, 54, maybe also 65, have extra practice problems.

Some of my kids do every problem, and soon only do odds or evens and it's fine! I know many kids who have dinner that successfully but i think it does depend on the kid.

 

[Ellie]

11 hours ago, seemesew said:

Some of my kids do every problem, and soon only do odds or evens and it's fine! I know many kids who have dinner that successfully but i think it does depend on the kid.

Jann in TX tutors children who use Saxon; she says the ones who have the most trouble are the ones whose parents allowed them to skip problems.

Also, anecdotally, when we're having a discussion with someone whose dc is struggling in Saxon, almost always she says that she allows her dc to do evens/odds.

Saxon is not like other texts. The "extra problems" are not there just for practice, such that you can have your dc skip some when you are pretty sure they "understand the concept." Each and every problem in each and every problem set was written and placed specifically not only to provide continued use of each concept but also to develop each concept, past what is presented in the lesson. When your dc skips problems he's missing that, and so he'll feel like things aren't explained enough, or that not enough time is spent on each concept, neither of which happens when doing all of the problems in every problem set.

Apparently, it isn't obviously an issue until algebra.