Anti-vaxxers and the COVID vaccine.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

I said some "random" time.  If we know how long they last, then there can be a schedule for boosters or whatever, at which time you can address risk the same way as if the first vax was permanently effective.

The point is that it's currently unknown. I don't want to find out what the time is by getting sick. 

Yes, I expect they'll have more data by the time we get our shots, but I doubt they'll have a very clear sense of the distribution. 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The point is that it's currently unknown. I don't want to find out what the time is by getting sick. 

Yes, I expect they'll have more data by the time we get our shots, but I doubt they'll have a very clear sense of the distribution. 

Well then, if the vax doesn't make you feel safe, act accordingly and stay away from people.  Or do you expect to know for sure the exact dates each of your and your child's acquaintances have had their latest shot?  You won't know.

Edited January 2, 2021 by SKL

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

I have friends of multiple ethnicities among Americans and none of them spank. Ever.  I come from a culture where a generation ago it was acceptable, now lots of push back when there are other ways to deal with it.

I don't think any of our friends spank, either. 

Anyway, let's come back to the topic 🙂 . I really don't feel like debating whether it's a good idea whether I should avoid unvaccinated people or not. If you have some new reason that it's safe to hang out with them, I'd like to hear it, but otherwise, I'd like to come back to brainstorming. What would be a good way to stay safe? 

I expect that in the Northeast, numbers will be down by the summer. I can imagine having some cautious outdoor playdates by then -- between some people being vaccinated, improved drugs, and natural immunity, I think that'll seem like the safe choice. 

But then comes the fall. I imagine my kids won't be vaccinated by then, although it's POSSIBLE we will be. I will need to decide about classes and things like that. I'll need to think about whether to organize outings with all people, or whether I should restrict them to vaccinated people. And I want to restrict them to vaccinated people, I could either start a group ONLY for people who plan to vaccinate or I could advertise that way... I'm not sure, really. I haven't liked sticking my neck out before. On the other hand, it's possible other people would appreciate someone doing it. 

 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I have friends of multiple ethnicities among Americans and none of them spank. Ever.  I come from a culture where a generation ago it was acceptable, now lots of push back when there are other ways to deal with it.

Oh sure, I know people who say they don't believe in spanking.  Some of them have still spanked their own kids in frustration, some have done emotional blackmail which I consider worse, and some are actually gentle, mature non-spankers.  But over 80% of American parents in a recent Harris poll said they believed spanking was appropriate in some situations, and I believe the % of parents who actually have spanked is even higher (I don't remember the source for that).

So do you ask everyone you meet whether they believe in spanking?  That could be awkward, but whatever.

I still find it astounding that you think a person who believes in corporal punishment for her own child would hit your child.  It doesn't work that way.  That would be like you deciding to get my child vaccinated or get her ears pierced or something.

[Bootsie]

49 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I have to pick who I hang out with right now. Because they'll probably be my kids' friends when it does become an issue! 

Look, if this is absurdly early planning for you, I understand. I'm merely setting out what my personal feelings and constraints are and am trying to figure out how to maneuver. If I decide "this is not a problem" right now, I can see this biting me later. So I'm thinking through this. 

IME, as kids get older, this becomes more and more difficult.  Picking friends I want to hang out with at one point in time and expecting my kids to enjoy being around their kids six moths later or that we would agree on major parenting or other issues down the road became less and less possible.   

[Bootsie]

17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

IBut then comes the fall. I imagine my kids won't be vaccinated by then, although it's POSSIBLE we will be. I will need to decide about classes and things like that. I'll need to think about whether to organize outings with all people, or whether I should restrict them to vaccinated people. And I want to restrict them to vaccinated people, I could either start a group ONLY for people who plan to vaccinate or I could advertise that way... I'm not sure, really. I haven't liked sticking my neck out before. On the other hand, it's possible other people would appreciate someone doing it. 

 

You do not think your kids will be vaccinated in the fall.  So, when you suggest restricting outings to vaccinated people, would you restrict to vaccinated adults but allow unvaccinated children?  If for some reason someone is unable to vaccinate (even though they may be philosophically pro-vaccination or had planned to vaccinate) will you then not interact with them?  

I know some adults who have expressed a desire to receive a vaccination but are much more hesitant to vaccinate their children.  Where would they fit in?  I think even people who tend to be pro-vax are reevaluating this particular vaccine over and over again.  I know some people who were ready to be first in line that have now backed off of their enthusiasm; I know some who were hesitant and are now eager to receive the vaccination.  I think you are dealing with a fluid situation with people's attitudes changing as new information becomes available. 

[Shoeless]

57 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think any of our friends spank, either. 

Anyway, let's come back to the topic 🙂 . I really don't feel like debating whether it's a good idea whether I should avoid unvaccinated people or not. If you have some new reason that it's safe to hang out with them, I'd like to hear it, but otherwise, I'd like to come back to brainstorming. What would be a good way to stay safe? 

I expect that in the Northeast, numbers will be down by the summer. I can imagine having some cautious outdoor playdates by then -- between some people being vaccinated, improved drugs, and natural immunity, I think that'll seem like the safe choice. 

But then comes the fall. I imagine my kids won't be vaccinated by then, although it's POSSIBLE we will be. I will need to decide about classes and things like that. I'll need to think about whether to organize outings with all people, or whether I should restrict them to vaccinated people. And I want to restrict them to vaccinated people, I could either start a group ONLY for people who plan to vaccinate or I could advertise that way... I'm not sure, really. I haven't liked sticking my neck out before. On the other hand, it's possible other people would appreciate someone doing it. 

 

I know that I would be interested in events that require vaccination for participation. I suspect that there are a lot of homeschoolers that would like that.

The anti-vax crowd can set up their own events where they can be "free". 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I know that I would be interested in events that require vaccination for participation. I suspect that there are a lot of homeschoolers that would like that.

Yeah, that's where I'm leaning, I think -- starting a FB group for people who plan to get the vaccine. We have some online groups for all the homeschoolers, and I've asked the organizer whether I'd be able to post an advertisement for that or not (I know her in real life and like her, so hopefully she'll say yes.) 

The only thing is that it's 

a) sticking my neck out

and 

b) might upset those friends of ours who don't vaccinate, including some in my little Zoom math class. 

I'm pretty sure we do have friends who don't vaccinate, although they aren't the militant type. But again... they are cagey about it. At least starting this group would make things clearer, if enough people joined. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Shoeless]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, that's where I'm leaning, actually -- starting a FB group for people who plan to get the vaccine. We have some online groups for all the homeschoolers, and I've asked the organizer whether I'd be able to post an advertisement for that or not (I know her in real life and like her, so hopefully she'll say yes.) 

The only thing is that it's 

a) sticking my neck out

and 

b) might upset those friends of ours who don't vaccinate, including some in my little Zoom math class. 

I'm pretty sure we do have friends who don't vaccinate, although they aren't the militant type. But again... they are cagey about it. At least starting this group would make things clearer, if enough people joined. 

Unfortunately, it will be impossible to avoid upsetting people with this.  They will have to make a choice. They'll either get on board and vaccinate against Covid or they won't. You'll learn something important about them and where they fit into your life, either way. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Unfortunately, it will be impossible to avoid upsetting people with this.  They will have to make a choice. They'll either get on board and vaccinate against Covid or they won't. You'll learn something important about them and where they fit into your life, either way. 

All the people in my class are all sweet people. Some of them are just a bit hippie-ish and one is slightly conspiracy-minded... but she's also one of the mathy parents, so I'd like to stay friendly. (I'm going to delete that detail in a sec, please don't quote.) They've all been lovely through the pandemic and have distanced nicely -- that's why they are in my Zoom class, because they aren't taking classes in person. 

So... I'd rather not upset them 😞 . But I'm also not sure I'll want to do outings with that subset of them that won't vaccinate, you know? Not until I know more. But I'd be happy to continue running Zoom things... 

Or maybe I'd be happy doing outdoor things with them with masks? I'm really not sure. I'd have to figure out my boundaries. Either way, I would want to know. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Shoeless]

@Not_a_NumberTotally understandable.  

Some of them may surprise you. They may end up vaccinating for Covid, but not anything else. Or they may vaccinate late, after they have more data. 

If they are decent people, they'll peacefully accept this is something you do not feel you can compromise. If they are jerks, they'll argue and you'll again learn something important. 

Sometimes the answer is "no".  🤷‍♀️  

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

I ask. Like I do if they have guns at home since we live in TX. No they do not owe me an explanation, but those who practice gun safety and to whom our family friendships matter will let us know what they do for gun safety. I have no problem with people owning guns, but I will absolutely not be ok with people who are blasé about gun safety.

Anti-vaxxers are usually quite vocal especially now. Previously it would not matter, now it does.

Those that you know are anti-vaxxers are probably vocal; that is how you know they are anti-vaxxers.  But, unless you do a poll, and receive honest answers from everyone you haven't talked about vaccinations with, you do not know that because someone isn't vocal they are not an anti-vaxxer.

I know one person who is extremely vocal anti-vax (and anti-many types of medications).  She is one of the people I know who is most eager to receive a COVID vaccine.

A person that I know who is at the other end of the spectrum and is adamant that there should be government mandated vaccines for all children and extremely vocal about it is one of the people who is most wary of the COVID vaccine.  She is a medical worker and is holding off getting a vaccine; she is unsure what she will do with her children by the time they can get a vaccine.

It has been surprising to me of how some people have come down much differently than what their very vocal opinions about vaccines in general has been when it has come to a COVID vaccine.  

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

ITA. Unfortunately because it won't be mandated, we all have to make a choice. Whatever we choose will make someone else angry. 

As my DD gets older, I know that I have less control over her friends. But I can choose to have our family in environments where people vaccinate. It's impossible to know whether people will vaccinate for COVID but I can make educated guesses. I already a good idea of the people in my life who won't vaccinate. 

Because DD had friends who were not vaccinated, we were open about this with DD. We told her that she was fully vaccinated and that we wish her friends were fully vaccinated. I've told her how grateful I am that vaccines are available today. Interestingly DD and her non-vaxxed friends had some interesting discussions about vaccinations without the interference of any parents. 

Unfortunately, I think it's nearly impossible for a homeschooled kid to avoid unvaxxed children. They are everywhere in our communities. 

To address a comment upthread, I do not trust people who do not wear seatbelts or use carseats with my DD. I would not allow my DD to drive in a car with someone who has driven drunk. I've left my child with people who don't vaccinate because I know that they would access mainstream medical care for my child if she needed it. However, I would not trust any of their opinions about any healthcare related. 

I think Covid will be a problem in the homeschool world for quite awhile. Covid vax will likely be mandated in schools for in person learning, which will result in more people opting to homeschool. 

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm not sure that it will be mandated everywhere. If it's mandated, then it should be easy to get an exemption just like for the other vaccines except in states like California. 

Our state requires vaccination for enrollment in public schools but it's easy to get an exemption. I don't know anyone who HSes to avoid vaccination in this state. 

NY has the same rules -- they got rid of the religious exemption. That's why it's an extra big problem here. 

I don't know if they'll mandate the vaccine while it's still being studied or not, although it's possible. 

[Not_a_Number]

So... I'm curious. In states that still DO have the religious exemption, what fraction of the community would you say are anti-vaxxers? Is it still a really big fraction? 

[sweet2ndchance]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So... I'm curious. In states that still DO have the religious exemption, what fraction of the community would you say are anti-vaxxers? Is it still a really big fraction? 

We are the only non-vaccinating family I know of in my neck of the woods. Our state has all 3 exemption types. I know there must be others who do not vaccinate but I don't go around asking others if they vaccinate or not because it doesn't matter to me what others chose to do with their families. So I can't really say with any confidence what fraction of the population are non-vaccinating like me or even anti-vaccinations. I guess any that are vehemently against vaccines around here just aren't that vocal about it or I've just gotten really good at tuning them out. 

[Shoeless]

31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So... I'm curious. In states that still DO have the religious exemption, what fraction of the community would you say are anti-vaxxers? Is it still a really big fraction? 

I am the only person out of 50-ish hs families that I personally know that vaccinate. There are a few families that vaccinated their oldest kid and then stopped after more kids were born. The area I am in is probably on the extreme end of the spectrum. 

[Not_a_Number]

7 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I am the only person out of 50-ish hs families that I personally know that vaccinate. There are a few families that vaccinated their oldest kid and then stopped after more kids were born. The area I am in is probably on the extreme end of the spectrum. 

Oh, wow. That does some extreme.

[Dmmetler]

Based on what I see on homeschool boards, I'm guessing that most kids below the age of about 12 have had mandatory vaccines. The main reason being that very few families homeschool their first child from K on, and a lot of parents send their kids to preschool programs even if their older kids are homeschooled because you can still find a play based preschool where kids spend a lot of time outside and most homeschool programs do not have anything for preschoolers (because that seems to change the character of the program dramatically and makes it less effective for the homeschooled kids the program is intended for)

Once you get to middle/high school, compliance is likely very low until kids start DE classes, where getting an exception will require a lot more documentation than a note from Mom. 

[SKL]

14 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I think Covid will be a problem in the homeschool world for quite awhile. Covid vax will likely be mandated in schools for in person learning, which will result in more people opting to homeschool. 

I don't know that it's likely the vax will be required for school attendance.  By the time it's sufficiently tested and widely available to kids, I believe Covid will no longer be the public health threat that it is today.  It will be like the flu or even less dangerous.  We do not have mandated flu vaxes for kids in school.

[Amy Gen]

17 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

b) might upset those friends of ours who don't vaccinate, including some in my little Zoom math class. 

Here is my concern, I get wanting to plan for the future. Especially now while the present is pretty sucky, but I would not risk alienating these families right now while the relationships are working for you and meeting a very present need for your daughter. 
 

I would continue with your zoom group right now because currently those families pose no risk, and are a needed benefit. 
 

Later, when you feel there may be other options to socialize and your daughter is less dependent on these families, then you can try your FB group idea. 
 

In my opinion, you have more to lose than you have to gain is you upset the balance right now. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Amy Gen
Funky punctuation

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm looking at the responses about vaccination rates above and  SMH. It's terrible for our community and we should all be ashamed. But there's nothing that I can do about it other than to continue to vaccinate my child. Honestly, if I had an infant I would avoid events with many HSed kids. 

I will always stan for SWB even though her curriculum never work for me. In fact, this post makes me want to buy Grammar for a Well Trained Mind which I'm sure that we would hate:

 

BTW, I noticed this was trending on Twitter and am adding it for context. Never heard of this guy before. He was diagnosed with COVID in December. 42 years old! And there was the new congressman from LA who died last week who was 41. 

 

 

Reading the responses to her vaccine post on Facebook makes me very thankful we have intelligent, well spoken people like her as the face of homescholing in this country. Some of the comments are down right terrifying in their level of ignorance and conspiracy theories.

[Not_a_Number]

36 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

Here is my concern, I get wanting to plan for the future. Especially now while the present is pretty sucky, but I would not risk alienating these families right now while the relationships are working for you and meeting a very present need for your daughter. 
 

I would continue with your zoom group right now because currently those families pose no risk, and are a needed benefit. 
 

Later, when you feel there may be other options to socialize and your daughter is less dependent on these families, then you can try your FB group idea. 
 

In my opinion, you have more to lose than you have to gain is you upset the balance right now. 

Yeah, you're probably right. I probably won't post it for now. 

I'm the one offering the math class, though 😉 . I doubt that they would actually refuse to come to my class because I started a Facebook group -- all the kids really enjoy the class. 

I see your point, though. I am not going to move fast. 

[Pam in CT]

re public school requirements

1 hour ago, kand said:

There are several mandatory vaccinations for diseases that are not current public health threats (polio and diphtheria as examples). Do schools require the chicken pox vaccine? That might be more similar, except I think chicken pox has a lower death rate in kids than flu (I’ll look up that stat and edit if I’m wrong). I don’t know if it’s likely Covid will eventually be less dangerous for people who do catch it such that it will be more like flu. Right now it’s so different from flu it’s hard to see that happening within the time kids will start being vaccinated. 

CT requires chicken pox for all, and flu for public preschool programs.

There are currently medical and religious exemptions. In response to measles issues, there was a bill in last year's legislative cycle to rescind the religious exemption. It never came to a vote as it was, like many other initiatives, suddenly crowded out by COVID, but it looked back in last February like there were enough votes to pass it then, even before COVID transformed us all into accidental epidemiologists.

I would not be at all surprised if -- once the COVID vaccine is tested/approved/ functionally available to children -- it were mandated here, at least until it stopped circulating widely.  Public health authorities and legislators alike have little patience for public health threats, and COVID has only accelerated that dynamic.

OP if you really want to "plan" your long range out social scene, your most COVID-cautious bet might well be to look at afterschool programs in the public school system. My nearly-grown nephews went to PS 166 on the UWS and availed of a wealth of great things before they ultimately wound their way to Bronx Science where they got *fantastic* high school educations.

[Terabith]

3 hours ago, kand said:

Unfortunately, the chickenpox vaccine does not prevent shingles. In fact, I’ve known young vaccinated kids to get shingles, including our neighbor at four years old. Perhaps we will find out after enough vaccinated kids have reached adulthood that the shingles rates are at least lower, but currently shingles has actually increased dramatically since vaccination because older adults no longer get the usual natural boosters they used to get from encountering kids carrying wild chickenpox. Shingles seems like a really tough one to resolve. Even the shingles vaccine doesn’t seem to be great. My mom has always gotten every vaccine offered her, including shingles, and has had several shingles outbreaks anyway, and I know that’s not unusual  (hence the newer, higher dose vaccine). Maybe they would’ve been worse without the vaccine, though.

Yes, I am pro vaccinations, but I actually held off on the chicken pox vaccine for my kids until they entered school and were approaching puberty age because at the time, the evidence was that kids who got the chicken pox vaccine were more likely to get shingles later.  That seems to be less clear now; the issue seems to be more that adults aren't having as much exposure to the chicken pox virus, which makes shingles more likely.  My other concern was that the chicken pox vaccine provides immunity for about ten years, and it would be easy for a 20 or 30 year old to forget to get a booster.  

[SKL]

4 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I just checked our state requirements. It looks like it mostly follows the CDC recommendations and includes the chickenpox vaccine. One major difference is the HPV vaccine which is on the CDC schedule but not the state schedule. 

It's always been my understanding that the purpose of the chickenpox vaccine is to prevent shingles in adulthood instead of preventing childhood deaths from the chickenpox. 

Here is our state's requirements:

Arizona Guide to Immunizations Required for Entry

Parents can obtain exemptions for medical reasons, "religious beliefs," and "personal beliefs." 

 

It is my understanding that the reason schools want kids to have the varicella vax is to reduce the amount of time kids are out of school.  And the reason adults like it is that it reduces the amount of time parents are out of work.  Chickenpox is extremely low risk for kids who get it between ages 1 and 9, which used to be almost every kid.  It is a much higher risk for people age 10+.

Covid is extremely low risk for school kids also.  If the older people who are at higher risk can be vaccinated, I don't see a point in requiring kids to get this vax.  (I am not a fan of the chickenpox vax being required for young kids either.)

[wathe]

4 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I just checked our state requirements. It looks like it mostly follows the CDC recommendations and includes the chickenpox vaccine. One major difference is the HPV vaccine which is on the CDC schedule but not the state schedule. 

It's always been my understanding that the purpose of the chickenpox vaccine is to prevent shingles in adulthood instead of preventing childhood deaths from the chickenpox. 

Here is our state's requirements:

Arizona Guide to Immunizations Required for Entry

Parents can obtain exemptions for medical reasons, "religious beliefs," and "personal beliefs." 

 

Chickenpox vaccine has reduced both morbidity and mortality from chickenpox itself. Definitely not just about reducing shingles.  From the CDC:

"Chickenpox used to be very common in the United States. In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got chickenpox, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized, and 100 to 150 died each year.

Chickenpox vaccine became available in the United States in 1995. Each year, more than 3.5 million cases of chickenpox, 9,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths are prevented by chickenpox vaccination in the United States."

Add to that the days missed from school, and days missed from work to care for ill children.  The effect of the vaccine is actually quite substantial.

And I can tell you that chickenpox associated pneumonia and chickenpox associated necrotizing fasciitis are no joke.  When I was training in the 90's we used to see these.  We don't see them anymore - that's a win, for sure!

ETA - Also, reduced stress and worry for pregnant women who work with children.

Edited January 3, 2021 by wathe

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

RE time out of school, I've read that vaccines are one of the things that allows women to work outside of the home. 

 

I've not thought of that.  It does make sense that vaccines would  free up many days for work that would otherwise be spent looking after sick children.

[wathe]

Just now, wathe said:

I've not thought of that - childhood vaccination as a gender equity issue.  It does make sense that vaccines would  free up many days for work that would otherwise be spent looking after sick children.