Young adult children and launching

[Farrar]

I guess part of what's not defined is whether or not it's positive to support your kids throughout their 20's. I think there is a negative connotation to saying that a mid to late 20's young adult is not "fully independent." But, at the same time, I think it's very positive to support your kids if you can in many ways. Because small support in their 20's breeds bigger dividends for them later on. So that couple thousand dollar hit that the reasonably affluent parents take isn't much to their overall finances, but can become a hole for the young adults. It only makes sense that the adults should help if possible.

[WendyLady]

Voting other - with some college - then married and considered launched before college graduation.  Still graduated or soon to graduate from college. No delays.

My oldest dd went to college for a year, with a great merit scholarship from her school, we helped some with monthly expenses, but her scholarship covered tuition and her housing. She then served a mission for our church. When she returned, she lived at home and worked all summer and headed back to college on scholarship, where we continued to support financial a little each month, plus she was on our insurance, etc. She married the summer after her sophomore year at 22 years old. I considered her fully launched at that point. she and her husband didn’t ask for assistance with housing or other expenses, and she was able to keep her scholarship all 4 years. She was unable to continue on our health insurance, but was able to buy insurance through her college. She is now graduated and working as an RN, while her husband is finishing up school. They are in their own apartment and contributing to a 401k.  She’s thinking of going back to school next year for her masters after her husband graduates.

Our 2nd dd went to college on an ROTC scholarship, it covered tuition, we payed housing and meal plan.  She got engaged during her sophomore year (same scholarship - we paid housing but she covered food costs and other expenses.)  She married the summer after her sophomore year at 20 years old.  She and her husband will both graduate this spring, she will be 22. They will both be serving in the Air Force after graduation. Our health insurance (tricare) does not allow you to keep married children on it, though her husband was able to stay on his parents’. They pay for her ins through their school. I considered her fully launched when they got married. They both have used ROTC scholarships to pay tuition. Their combined monthly stipend almost covers their rent costs, and they have part time jobs and have also received help through pell grants.  I wouldn’t recommend marrying early, I wish they had waited another year or so, but it does have some perks for pell grant help.

Both couples have managed to set up their first real (adorable) apartments with furniture found on marketplace on their own. Both couples have also managed to avoid student loans. 

We really have helped very little. We have gifted new tires and dh has helped with car repairs and upkeep when possible.  We have bought replacement retainers and paid for eye exams. We have helped pay for them to visit us. We would give money if asked, but so far they have impressed us with their self sufficiency. We are really proud of all of them! I’m happy they have chosen to focus on college and not start a family right away, though. And I wouldn’t have minded if they had had more summer and winter breaks at home before launching right into marriage.

[wintermom]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

Well, OK, thanks for sharing but do I need to offer a reason for the poll now?

If you are going to argue with people about how to interpret your poll questions, I assume you have a reason for the poll. Or you just like to argue. 

[Murphy101]

25 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think for me, there are two parts to this.  The first is if your kids grow to *expect* it, but then that leads back to where I was.....what happens when that source of income goes away?  

 

Someone mentioned being "dependent" on their DH.  As a SAHM, I am, in some ways, dependent on DH from that financial standpoint.  HOWEVER, that's a choice we both make cooperatively, AND as a SAHM, I provide support to the family in ways that are not financial.  Also, when we were faced with a situation where DH didn't have the income, I immediately went out and filled that gap.  I *CAN* provide the financial support my family needs, but in our family, we choose to divide the contributions to the family in such a way that I am not providing that sort of support at this time.  But, when DH couldn't provide it, we didn't need to rely on others to provide it.  

idk that it’s entirely cooperatively. I mean if I divorce him, the chances he won’t have to keep paying me something is rather slim.  We could argue it wouldn’t be enough to pay rent, but it would probably still be money I depended on. Even if I got a job. Even if I didn’t have kids or only had a couple school aged kids vs the 6 I still have at home. 

Is an ex-spouse depending on alimony or child support not considered financially independent?

If it being “cooperatively” agreed is the factor to being considered financially independent - then why wouldn’t an adult child receiving some parental funds still qualify as financially independent and launched?

As for the second argument, does no one’s adult children also support the family in non financial ways? Mine certainly do. They give rides, do chores, run errands...

[regentrude]

45 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Someone mentioned being "dependent" on their DH.  As a SAHM, I am, in some ways, dependent on DH from that financial standpoint.  HOWEVER, that's a choice we both make cooperatively, AND as a SAHM, I provide support to the family in ways that are not financial.  Also, when we were faced with a situation where DH didn't have the income, I immediately went out and filled that gap.  I *CAN* provide the financial support my family needs, but in our family, we choose to divide the contributions to the family in such a way that I am not providing that sort of support at this time.  But, when DH couldn't provide it, we didn't need to rely on others to provide it.  

But doesn't the same hold for a college student? If the family were in need, the young adult *could* go get a job and work to support the family; however, the family may choose that it would be in the entire family's best interest to send him to school instead and provide for his support during this time. 

It's OK to depend on each other in a family unit. It's OK for spouses to depend on each other, for young adults to depend on their parents, for elderly to depend on their children. That's what family is for. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by regentrude

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

But doesn't the same hold for a college student? If the family were in need, the young adult could go get a job and work to support the family; however, the family may choose that it would be in the entire family's best interest to send him to school instead and provide for his support during this time. 

It's OK to depend on each other in a family unit. It's OK for spouses to depend on each other, for young adults to depend on their parents, for elderly to depend on their children. 

So much this. 

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

In OUR case, it's entirely cooperative. And if something happened to our marriage, I would likely not need to depend on any money the court might award.  But then, I have done the single parent before, I can do it again.   (and when I was a single parent receiving child support, I did not *DEPEND* on it to make ends meet.  For a long time, it wasn't consistent anyway.)

As to the bolded, the question for me is if the child is able to make ends meet without that support.  Again...........if we passed, is the kid going to struggle to eat.

No, my adult child doesn't support us in non financial ways.  She lives 2 to 3 hours away from us.  She doesn't run errands, give rides, do chores, etc.  

I see. Different life situations then from most sahmoms. Okay.👍

[regentrude]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Given that the college student holds none of the legal or financial obligations, I say the answer is no.  The adult college student is not legally obligated to ensure that her 8yr old sibling is fed.  However, I, as the minor child's parent, am legally obligated to ensure the child is fed (and clothed and shelted etc) regardless of the choices I make to do that.  

I don't see where the 8 y/o comes in. You insisted that a SAHM who chooses not to earn an income should be considered independent because she could, if she wanted, support the family.  This has nothing to do with being obligated or not.

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As to the bolded, the question for me is if the child is able to make ends meet without that support.  Again...........if we passed, is the kid going to struggle to eat.

In that line of argument: many SAHMs would struggle if they were suddenly widowed. Does a person count as "independent" when their income comes from an inheritance or life insurance payment? Is that different than a gift?

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Given that the college student holds none of the legal or financial obligations, I say the answer is no.  The adult college student is not legally obligated to ensure that her 8yr old sibling is fed.  However, I, as the minor child's parent, am legally obligated to ensure the child is fed (and clothed and shelted etc) regardless of the choices I make to do that.  

Hence her point of family members CHOOSING to help the family as a whole by helping each other.

If the only question is legal requirements, well that’s simple enough to answer without a poll. 18 means the parents no longer have any obligation at all. At no age is the child ever legally obligated to do anything for their parents. They can walk out at 18 and never speak again.

[Murphy101]

Just now, regentrude said:

In that line of argument: many SAHMs would struggle if they were suddenly widowed. Does a person count as "independent" when their income comes from an inheritance or life insurance payment? Is that different than a gift?

Right? I’d be up poop creek without a single square to wipe with if dh died today.  And that’s even though we do currently have life insurance on him.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I highly value my current life situation.

?? Okay. I would too. I highly value my current life situation too. I wasn’t being sarcastic. Just saying I get it but I also know most sahm would likely struggle a lot more.  There’s plenty of data to show divorce is a major poverty maker even when women aren’t sahm.

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The reason the financial obligation comes in is because paying to feed a minor child is no different than paying rent.  It's an obligation required to make ends meet.  It's one of the bills a person has to pay.  The parent of a minor child cannot choose to not buy food any more than they can choose to not pay rent.  

sure, agree - still have no clue what that has to do with my argument.

You say person A is to be considered independent because she could earn if she chose to but does not, because it's agreed that is best for the family. At no moment does a financial obligation enter this statement. 

I say if that is true for person A, it is true for person B as well. He is independent because he could earn if he chose to, but does not, because it's agreed that is best for the family. 

Financial obligations have to be met by both. The family chooses to handle this without making the person earn an income.

Edited December 19, 2019 by regentrude

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

The reason the financial obligation comes in is because paying to feed a minor child is no different than paying rent.  It's an obligation required to make ends meet.  It's one of the bills a person has to pay.  The parent of a minor child cannot choose to not buy food any more than they can choose to not pay rent.  

But that seems rather drastic measures just to be nit-picky?

I mean no one here is discussing letting children of any age starve.

But there’s a lot of awful that isn’t starving too.

A parent may have a legal obligation to make sure their kid is fed, but they have no obligation to feed them well or healthily. 

Some people take a lot of pride that they lived off ramen and we might joke about it, but the truth is it’s not really funny that many people really are living off that every day.

If family chooses to help each other so that as a whole everyone struggles a bit less in the long run - to me that does not diminish any of their independence. In fact, I strongly suspect it enhances it over the long haul.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I suppose that we might be working with different, or perhaps less nuanced definitions of the word "family."  

What? Parents and their children is a rather clear discussion of family in this thread?

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I’d move in a nano second to Canada or Australia if they’d let my family have citizenship. Take 50% of our paychecks in taxes. We’d still come out ahead of almost anywhere here and get better education and not have to worry about having to ration insulin again.

only the top % of taxpayers pay anywhere near 50% tax.  most people h in Aus are not paying anywhere near that amount of tax

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I suppose that we might be working with different, or perhaps less nuanced definitions of the word "family."  

I thought {parents+their children} is the greatest-common-denominator for the definition of "family" everybody would agree upon? And differences in definition would only come in when one considers extending this to kids' spouses, siblings, cousins, etc? If {parents+children}=family is controversial, I better bow out of this thread

Edited December 19, 2019 by regentrude

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

It’s not really that tough if you’re maintaining your own residence and work, even underage-ish.

I admit I’m having a hard time considering some of these adult children independent or launched if they need to live with mom and dad or have any significant portion of their lives subsidized by them.  Like, I won’t ever actually consider my little guy independent if he is living under our roof.  He may have some independence and freedoms, but he is a *dependent* by the strict definition.

Kind of mind boggling. I mean, it’s not bad to want to assist your children, but if they can’t swim without it the level of self sufficiency is something I question as a parent.  It’s not an issue, but I’m not sure it fits the definition, really.  

Well, “need” is still subjective.
My teenagers have general work experience and special career training. At 18, they could have incomes that could probably support themselves okay.  But I would prefer that they build their savings up as high as they can before they head out.  Really I’d prefer they got more education and *then savings.  

They actually have the possibility to have free living space elsewhere (in exchange for volunteering), which would meet the same goal. Whether they do that here or there, or are considered dependent or not, I hope, hope, hope they take advantage of the opportunity.

I know too many grown adults... 30s, 40s... 60s... who are struggling to make it in this world.  I’m definitely trying to extend every advantage I can to my kids without negatively impacting my own future abilities.

[frogger]

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Given that the college student holds none of the legal or financial obligations, I say the answer is no.  The adult college student is not legally obligated to ensure that her 8yr old sibling is fed.  However, I, as the minor child's parent, am legally obligated to ensure the child is fed (and clothed and shelted etc) regardless of the choices I make to do that.  

 

And yet I know siblings who had to make sure their younger siblings were cared for regardless of legal responsibilities while parents didn't take responsability at all. Some things are stonger then legal pieces of paper. 

[frogger]

I was raised to be independent and I was at 17 except a few months I roomed with my older sister for really cheap. I was never legally her dependent but she helped me tremendously, so there is that. Then I moved to a different state away from all family and no one sent me gifts. Gifts were very typical of gifts. Socks and lotions or gift cards to go out to eat but no $100. 

 

Really though I'm a big fan of team work. This conversation makes me think I should focus more on being a contributing member of the family rather than independent, whatever that means. Giving as much as you are getting, or trying at least, seems a more productive route.  I do hope I raise all my children to be contributors.

I didn't answer because my 20 year old son will probably live with us over the summer while he works and we help out some with expenses and plane tickets to and from school.