I think I'm screwing this all up

[lewelma]

29 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I'm just saying... I can also give these sorts of "engagement was magic!" stories and I totally believe in them and, again, have made them happen at various points. But there are places that it runs up against the edges.

 

I must be missing something. Don't you love doing all conversation in writing?  You just need to jet set over here for a cuppa. 🙂

If I sound all roses, I'm truly sorry.  I can tell you stories about the HELL I have had with dysgraphia and my younger if you'd like. But it sounds like you are doing what you and your dc want to do for most things, and lumping it for others.  So where is the problem?  Not that I think I am some guru to answer it, but more that I am truly curious.  Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with other posters, but I thought you were saying that high school is stressful and you get tired of hearing polyanna stories. I thought you were interested in brainstorming other options. If you rather, I can tell some big fat failure stories. I've got a ton of those! 🙂 

Maybe my engagement stories will be useful to someone else reading the thread. I can also bow out if I'm not being helpful.  I'm on school holidays, so have way more time to write than normal. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

dp

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

dp

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

I guess I'm left frustrated when I read threads like these.

On the one hand, people say, "Hey, chill out! Relax your schedule! It'll all be FINE!"

But then when people talk about the specifics of what that looks like, I find it's still unobtainable for many if not most students.

So I went back to find your quote that made me write about engagement. Engagement is how I cut time and still maintain quality and quantity.

Can you expand more on what you meant by the above quote, maybe what you were looking to discuss?

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

 

 

I just mean that people say, "We relaxed our schedule. Here's what it looks like. A part time job. A sport. A great weekly volunteering commitment. Only one college class. Just reading this list of twenty classics instead of writing a ton of papers. And, of course, calculus and the special lab project our kid is doing. And regular level Japanese. AND THAT'S IT! And now we're so much happier that we've relaxed and aren't playing the game!" And it's like, holy &*@#. If that's relaxed, my children probably look like lazy sloths to you and yet they're pretty busy overall and I DO actually hope that they can one day attend a college of some sort.

And I get that it's not intended to be a judgment. Everyone has their own level of challenge needs. I'm sure that is relaxed for some kids. But on the other hand, I don't know that the message is actually relaxing for most people. I mean, I don't actually think my kids are intellectual lichens or lazy sloths and they're not hitting that, at least not and feeling "relaxed." And I am totally okay with that. I feel totally fine about where we are. And we're not too stressed most of the time. Like, we had a stressful week, but I'm not here complaining that we're having a stressful year. But I do see that and want to go, come on, people.

[Roadrunner]

i think it's all knowing your kid and being realistic on what we are comparing. Lewelma's advice is extremely valuable for parents who have similar kids. There is somebody out there wondering if they really need to do DE and AP if their child already has national and international awards. I think your experience could be just what gives them permission to "do their thing." But for a child without any awards, no real hooks, that DE or AP course could be the way to show their academic abilities. 

For OP, talking to sports moms, like alewife, is the most valuable. I think the sports hook is a very powerful one, and sports commitment is a very intense one, so your child's homeschool will and should look different. 

 

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 But for a child without any awards, no real hooks, that DE or AP course could be the way to show their academic abilities. 

I would add, that for some kids like my younger, it would better for his mental health to develop a hook and embrace a passion outside school, than to focus on DE and AP type work.

Teens can choose to dive deep into something interesting if their alternative is DE/AP and they have no interest in that. It's not like you have a hook or not. You can make one. 

[Meriwether]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

I guess I'm left frustrated when I read threads like these.

On the one hand, people say, "Hey, chill out! Relax your schedule! It'll all be FINE!"

But then when people talk about the specifics of what that looks like, I find it's still unobtainable for many if not most students. A courseload that's more than full plus an average of nearly 30 hours of EC's is not a relaxed schedule. And I don't mean to pick on Merriweather at all. I have seen this on so many threads. Someone says that a subject is "too much" or that a schedule is "too stressful" and people say, hey, relax. And then they offer their vision of "relaxed" and it's often like, "Oh we're just reading Anna Karenina, War and Peace, and Don Quixote but we're hardly writing about them at all just like one research essay!" Or, "My kid needed a relaxed math path, so we're just doing AP stats!" Or, "We really cut back our hours with music and now he's only performing in one symphony so he has time for research chemistry!"

 

I don't feel picked on. I'm not saying that that would be a cut back schedule for everyone. It was for her, and it brought peace to her life. Dd16 is my kid who probably could go to an exclusive school if she wanted to. She is bright and active and hardworking. But she would be competing against kids who are mostly in school all day, then doing sports or other activities, and then studying until late at night. I thought we were talking about whether or not we should be pushing those types of kids? 

This is what a fairly *busy* schedule looks like for Ds15:

Studies Biology, Ancients (history and lit - mostly the same reading as Dd16, but he reads more slowly so not quite), Bible Survey, Algebra II, Spanish and Logic. (6.5 credits)
His Spanish class is a small group class I teach, which does take more time because we leave the house for it two days each week.
Volunteers 1.5 hours at a Wednesday church group in the preschool class.
Plays Magic on Friday nights and spends as much of his evenings as he can putting decks together or watching videos explaining different cards.

He wants a job. We are going to let him apply soon, but we are all concerned that even 8 hours per week will be too much for him. He is bright, but school takes him a long time. We may have to spread school out more and do some in the summer if it is overwhelming. It is as important to me that he has time in his day to do fun things as for his sister to have time. He won't be doing school in the evenings either, if I can help it. There wasn't an internal struggle about it with him, though. Competitive schools were never on the table. He will probably start at a CC and transfer to a state school. I've worried before that he won't have extracurriculars schools would like, but I would much rather him have downtime in high school than try to please college admissions.

Ds13, not in high school yet, is too busy. He is feeling the pinch. Mostly because he does three band classes at the school in the morning (about the same number of hours Dd16 works)/volunteers, theater one afternoon, and the sport in the evening with her. The difference is that he doesn't do his school work nearly as fast. We are looking hard at his schedule to decide what to change, because her time commitments are too much for him. I may do more of a block schedule this year to help his days be more open. Next year, he may have to do fewer band classes.
 

[Farrar]

37 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

i think it's all knowing your kid and being realistic on what we are comparing. Lewelma's advice is extremely valuable for parents who have similar kids. There is somebody out there wondering if they really need to do DE and AP if their child already has national and international awards. I think your experience could be just what gives them permission to "do their thing." But for a child without any awards, no real hooks, that DE or AP course could be the way to show their academic abilities. 

For OP, talking to sports moms, like alewife, is the most valuable. I think the sports hook is a very powerful one, and sports commitment is a very intense one, so your child's homeschool will and should look different. 

 

I agree. But I also, I think we need voices saying the things she and 8fillstheheart are saying. Like, I think the people who are loading up on AP/DE should listen to them a little more.

I'm just aware that a number of these things are easier if you have a certain sort of kid. Or if you're a certain sort of teacher. Or if you have a certain level of experience in the subject that you need to teach with depth. Or if you have a kid who is getting outside accolades for other reasons. Or if you have a kid who is going to be naturally good at taking tests. Or if you have a kid whose interests are in something that is naturally interesting for colleges.

And that doesn't mean you can't do it anyway.

I don't know if I think kids need AP/DE in order to prove themselves. But I do think a student with no outside accolades to point to, no AP or DE, and not great test scores is not going anywhere especially selective. No matter how amazing, in depth, rigorous or what have you their high school experience was. They have to find something that isn't your transcript to show it. And that does not have to be AP/DE. I feel like too many people are relying on that too much, actually. And I don't think it's a winning game if you load up on those credits for most kids.

But then we get to... it depends on your goals. And your kid's goals.

[Farrar]

36 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I would add, that for some kids like my younger, it would better for his mental health to develop a hook and embrace a passion outside school, than to focus on DE and AP type work.

Teens can choose to dive deep into something interesting if their alternative is DE/AP and they have no interest in that. It's not like you have a hook or not. You can make one. 

Some kids aren't going to have a passion. I have one with a passion and it will NOT get him into college. I have another without a passion and he will likely never have one. It's not how he's wired. I've learned to stop talking too much about passions. Follow your passion turns out to be terrible advice for most people.

[lewelma]

14 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Some kids aren't going to have a passion. I have one with a passion and it will NOT get him into college. I have another without a passion and he will likely never have one. It's not how he's wired. I've learned to stop talking too much about passions. Follow your passion turns out to be terrible advice for most people.

Farrar, I have a boy who has no passion.  But if his choice were DE/AP or get his butt in gear and do SOMETHING that might look like a passion, you better believe that he would get out looking. 

Sometimes if you do something for the wrong reasons (I need this for my application), you can then start to do it for the right reasons (I actually like it).

At the moment, I'm talking to my younger ds about how his passion is playing with little kids.  Not much of a passion, really, but we can easily make that into a marketing ploy for applications if we just have him do one more thing.  He needs to volunteer to either help with a gymnastics group or with the community violin lessons group.  Then we sell it. For example,  "I have always had a passion for hanging out with younger kids.  I like being a roll model and know that I can help them to become the people they want to be.  Because of this, I have remained in my homeschool swimming and sports group to the age when I was 5 years older than then next oldest kid.  I did this because I love little people and believe I can make a difference in their lives.  This passion drove me to volunteer for the local community violin group.  Once I realized that I had the leadership potential and the soft skills to mentor young people, I decided that I could use my violin skills to really help out with kids who don't have the money for a private tutor.  Through my work these past 2 years, I have been able to teach and mentor 18 students and watch them grow in their love of violin.  This experience has taught me that I love working with people, I love the camaraderie and the shared vision. And through my time with these many kids, I have decided to dedicate my life to solving community issues in poverty and injustice."

It is how you SELL it.  My ds likes playing with little kids.  Together, we can make this into a passion worthy of a university application essay.  He would MUCH rather do something like this than take AP/DE classes.  And if it went well his junior year, he could up it just a bit his senior year by organizing for these little kids to play for a retirement village a couple times a year, or something. SELL the fact that he has implemented a vision to do his part to make a better world. You can MAKE a passion, real or not, that you can SELL to the people making the decisions. 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by lewelma

[Meriwether]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

And I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume these aren't obnoxious humblebrags. Everyone's needs and reference points are going to be different.

I missed this the first time I read your post. Since you mentioned me a couple of times, I'm assuming you are referring to me. I meant neither to be obnoxious nor a braggart. I do think Dd16 is the bee's knees, but I am equally pleased with Ds15. Even Ds13, who can't spell worth a darn, is pretty fabulous. I must have expressed myself poorly, but I'm not sure I could do better.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Farrar, I have a boy who has no passion.  But if his choice were DE/AP or get his butt in gear and do SOMETHING that might look like a passion, you better believe that he would get out looking. 

Sometimes if you do something for the wrong reasons (I need this for my application), you can then start to do it for the right reasons (I actually like it).

Yeah, this is my kid. And what you outline is the approach I'd love to take with him. But anxiety and generally stubbornness mean it's a no go. The teenage nihilism isn't helping. Anything I touch or support with this kid he will sabotage. Not on purpose. But I know how this plays out. We'll see how it shakes out in the end. He does have an amazing project that he's working on that I'm trying to stay out of. And there are some sad things going on where he just lost his job, his main EC, and his friend community because of a child predator. Seriously. So we're not in an awesome spot right now. But he's got time.

[lewelma]

29 minutes ago, Farrar said:

But anxiety and generally stubbornness mean it's a no go. The teenage nihilism isn't helping. .....But he's got time.

Ah, anxiety. Doesn't that throw a wrench in everything. My ds has struggled with anxiety too. I'm polyanna because I have to be.  Everyday I pull my big girl panties on and get the job done. 

I think that there is no way about it, teens have inequity in wealth, family circumstances, personality, intelligence, motivation, health, etc. And this impacts how hard they can work, what school they can get into, and what kind of merit aid they can get. My ds's mental health and learning disability mean that he cannot and will not put in the hours that so many students do in highschool. However, I can figure out what he is learning when he is not in school, and I can make sure that it gets on transcripts, ECs, essays, etc. Learning happens, school or no. But if you don't sell it, admissions won't know it.  

Edited September 30, 2019 by lewelma

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

Ah, anxiety. Doesn't that throw a wrench in everything. My ds has struggled with anxiety too. I'm polyanna because I have to be.  Everyday I pull my big girl panties on and get the job done. 

I think that there is no way about it, teens have inequity in wealth, family circumstances, personality, intelligence, motivation, health, etc. And this impacts how hard they can work, what school they can get into, and what kind of merit aid they can get. My ds's mental health and learning disability mean that he cannot and will not put in the hours that so many students do in highschool. However, I can figure out what he is learning when he is not in school, and I can make sure that it gets on transcripts, ECs, essays, etc. Learning happens, school or no. But if you don't sell it, admissions won't know it.  

Some of this may just be a difference in attitudes and personality. I'm not a pollyanna. I can't use the phrase big girl panties because I find it insulting. Like, there's nothing petty or childish about being a pragmatist. I know you didn't mean it like that. Or, I hope.

There's limits to this though. I dislike how everyone is so strict about you can or can't call such and such a thing a credit. I talked a friend through why she needed to put down credits for her kid who was obsessed with cars. He'd done some amazing stuff and she was prevaricating. There was no output, there was no "academic" learning whatever you say. And I see that on this board a LOT. Whatever you need to do to call it a credit, but mostly just do. The one thing I'll say is that don't call it "Pre-Calculus" or "Spanish III" if it wasn't because those have meanings. On the other hand, "Explorations in Higher Math" or "Spanish Culture and Conversation" are fine. But people are so hesitant.

But on the other hand, if my kid spends hours playing VR, putters around on half a dozen topics and refuses to stick with anything, and spends all year talking about launching this project with his friends and then never actually does... then I can't call that credits in good conscience. I just can't.

And it's a lot easier to turn in a transcript to a school and say, look at what we did and have them take it semi-seriously if you have something to back it up with - SAT scores, contest wins, a business, a published story, something.

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

I agree. But I also, I think we need voices saying the things she and 8fillstheheart are saying. Like, I think the people who are loading up on AP/DE should listen to them a little more.

I'm just aware that a number of these things are easier if you have a certain sort of kid. Or if you're a certain sort of teacher. Or if you have a certain level of experience in the subject that you need to teach with depth. Or if you have a kid who is getting outside accolades for other reasons. Or if you have a kid who is going to be naturally good at taking tests. Or if you have a kid whose interests are in something that is naturally interesting for colleges.

And that doesn't mean you can't do it anyway.

I don't know if I think kids need AP/DE in order to prove themselves. But I do think a student with no outside accolades to point to, no AP or DE, and not great test scores is not going anywhere especially selective. No matter how amazing, in depth, rigorous or what have you their high school experience was. They have to find something that isn't your transcript to show it. And that does not have to be AP/DE. I feel like too many people are relying on that too much, actually. And I don't think it's a winning game if you load up on those credits for most kids.

But then we get to... it depends on your goals. And your kid's goals.

At least for my son, taking a graded outside course that wasn’t AP or DE wasn’t really any different than taking one that was in terms of stress and time commitment. Since I knew we were going to outsource at least some things due to our work schedules and my son’s interests, it made sense to find the best fit, regardless of level or label. He did one of the easier APs his freshman year (AP US Gov) because he was passionate about current events and political science, it was a presidential election year, and he had already interned with a local presidential primary campaign. The course fit perfectly with his continuing fall work on the campaign in another state. Even though he loved the course and learned a ton, he realized he really disliked online courses. So we never did another one.

As for DE, we have a LAC a few minutes from our house that offers half-time enrollment to select high school students for $400 per term as opposed to the normal $20k in tuition per semester. We started with one class the first semester his junior year and then did two the remaining three semesters. He chose classes that interested him. We weren’t doing it for credit or to look good for admissions, we did it because it was an amazing opportunity to be able to take what you wanted to with great profs and not worry about meeting gen ed or major requirements. And the price simply couldn’t be beat.

And we balanced the more intense work load of college classes with a combination of homegrown courses and homeschool center classes (all ungraded, a great social setting with friends, and all completely chosen by him).

There were two areas we struggled with during high school, foreign language and math. For foreign language, we did it very, very non traditionally, because I figured if I was forcing it, I wanted him to get the most possible out of it. So we really emphasized speaking and understanding and greatly de-emphasized writing and to a lesser degree, reading. It was very much cobbled together and changed every year, but he ultimately CLEPed out of two years of college Spanish (and he only took the test because one of his colleges required some sort of outside verification of foreign language for homeschoolers).  And I could write a book about our struggles with math, and I don’t think we ever did find our groove. But he ultimately completed six college math classes for his STEM major, so I guess I didn’t mess him up too much.

So while I completely agree with you that heavy AP/DE may not be the best path for anyone, for us, eight of those classes, chosen by him, combined with homegrown and co-op classes did work well. I think it depends greatly on the child and their goals. My son would absolutely have withered had we done AP or DE or online classes primarily in an attempt to demonstrate rigor or to check boxes for requirements. Instead, we used it as a way for him to pursue his interests and passions, but kept things relatively sane by letting him drive the bus in those areas and then balanced it with ungraded co-op classes (also chosen by him) and homegrown courses.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Frances

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Some kids aren't going to have a passion. I have one with a passion and it will NOT get him into college. I have another without a passion and he will likely never have one. It's not how he's wired. I've learned to stop talking too much about passions. Follow your passion turns out to be terrible advice for most people.

Is the one with a passion Ballet Boy? I certainly think that would be a major EC for college admissions, at least for more selective schools, even if he doesn’t plan to major in dance. But I have no idea what kinds of schools he is looking at. For the vast majority of colleges, I don’t think ECs actually matter much because they accept most kids who apply. But they are pretty life enriching and major learning areas for lots of kids.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Frances

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Some of this may just be a difference in attitudes and personality. I'm not a pollyanna. I can't use the phrase big girl panties because I find it insulting. Like, there's nothing petty or childish about being a pragmatist. I know you didn't mean it like that. Or, I hope.

There's limits to this though. I dislike how everyone is so strict about you can or can't call such and such a thing a credit. I talked a friend through why she needed to put down credits for her kid who was obsessed with cars. He'd done some amazing stuff and she was prevaricating. There was no output, there was no "academic" learning whatever you say. And I see that on this board a LOT. Whatever you need to do to call it a credit, but mostly just do. The one thing I'll say is that don't call it "Pre-Calculus" or "Spanish III" if it wasn't because those have meanings. On the other hand, "Explorations in Higher Math" or "Spanish Culture and Conversation" are fine. But people are so hesitant.

But on the other hand, if my kid spends hours playing VR, putters around on half a dozen topics and refuses to stick with anything, and spends all year talking about launching this project with his friends and then never actually does... then I can't call that credits in good conscience. I just can't.

And it's a lot easier to turn in a transcript to a school and say, look at what we did and have them take it semi-seriously if you have something to back it up with - SAT scores, contest wins, a business, a published story, something.

Well I guess I need to post more about things we counted for credit because many of them didn’t fit into a traditional box or hours. I didn’t even include grades on our transcript except for when they were from outside classes. Although I will admit it was easier for me to not be hesitant about doing this because my son tests well, and he was primarily aiming for LACs, which I assumed would more appreciate or at least accept some non-traditional classes. But it sounds like other have also had good experiences with this approach at universities.

[lewelma]

 

still struggling with my quoting feature.

.

Edited September 30, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Some of this may just be a difference in attitudes and personality. I'm not a pollyanna. I can't use the phrase big girl panties because I find it insulting. Like, there's nothing petty or childish about being a pragmatist. I know you didn't mean it like that. Or, I hope.

 

Farrar, I work with at-risk youth. I work with kids with physical illness like leukemia, mental illness bad enough to be hospitalized for 3 months, and learning disabilities like dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, ADD, ODD and other letters. These kids hurt. They cut, they live on the streets, they eat out of dumpsters, they miss school, they fail class, they attempt suicide. I help them. I help them by being that person that truly believes that they can be more and better. That they can pull themselves up.  I am polyanna because they need me to be. I might be pragmatic in my heart of hearts, but in my thinking and my contact with them, I am only positive. This is how I save them. 

I feel like you are actually preaching to the choir in this thread. I think that we agree that people should count learning outside of traditional courses, that discovery can be a more engaging way to learn content than transmission, that there are many paths to success. So I'm a bit confused because you seem to be frustrated with most of my posts even though I think we agree on most things. Is there something that I am saying that you completely disagree with?

Edited September 30, 2019 by lewelma

[madteaparty]

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

It's not like you have a hook or not. You can make one. 

I don’t want to make one; I find the idea abhorrent. I’m just trying to figure out how to do school with this particular kid. I suspect that’s what most people are trying to sort, what school should look like in a context of relative isolation. 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

I don’t want to make one; I find the idea abhorrent. I’m just trying to figure out how to do school with this particular kid. I suspect that’s what most people are trying to sort, what school should look like in a context of relative isolation. 

Well, you don't have to. I brought it up because it was suggested that if you have no 'hook', you better do AP/DE to be competitive. And my point was that not all kids just fall into a hook. That not all kids have a passion. But that *if* they want to attend a competitive school, but hate the idea of AP/DE, they can *choose* to find a hook as a way to get competitive. It is an alternative. But I am not suggesting that all or even most kids want to attend a competitive school. My younger doesn't.

I think there are lots of different desires in this thread:

There are people who are talking competitive schools, and how to manage the competitive requirements to get there.

There are people who are talking about simply reducing workload and embracing life.

There are people who are talking about how frustrating the current school system is and how it ignores real life learning.

There is clearly no "most" people.

I've been trying to discuss what a different education can look like - one that is not based in traditional courses with traditional content and traditional modes of transmission. My younger boy is not a regular every day kid, and neither are *any* of our kids. They are all unique. Homeschooling allows us to tailor the education to each individual kid *if* we as teacher-parents so desire. The choice is ours. We do not need to be sheep, we can be anything we want, including people who embrace a traditional educational philosophy with all the pros and cons. Because ALL educational choices have pros and cons.

My younger ds is miserable to teach and has struggled as much as any to get to a highschool level. This child was working to spell the top 100 words at age 12. He was still mis-spelling his name. He could not physically write *anything*, no notes, no tests, no homework, no outlines, no jotting down of ideas. It all had to be scribed by me. He could not code math, he could not understand sentence structure, he could not write an essay. Starting highschool, he was writing like a 7 year old which had ramifications for every single subject. I am trying to describe how I have worked with him to find a way through. Clearly, my way is not THE way, but perhaps it might help someone out there to think through their options and decide on the most appropriate choice for their own family.

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

3 hours ago, madteaparty said:

I don’t want to make one; I find the idea abhorrent. I’m just trying to figure out how to do school with this particular kid. I suspect that’s what most people are trying to sort, what school should look like in a context of relative isolation. 

Families/parents have to decide why they are homeschooling and what they are willing or not willing to take on.  There is no single answer. For some people, the unknown risk of stepping too far away from the traditional school ideology is going to control their decisions.  That is their comfort zone.  For others, walking away and doing their own thing is within their comfort zone and they are willing to accept whatever the outcomes are.  

I know I have shared countless times on these forums that not one of my kids' educations has looked like another's.  It is the reason I homeschool.  I really don't care about what goes on in ps or how my kids' transcripts look compared to their public school counterparts.  I do make sure that I comply with state law and that is the only influence over our decisions.  Everything else is determined by the individual student and what they want/need out of high school.  I have had kids who are Energizer Bunnies and taking 10 cr hrs and involved in gazillion outside activities was absolutely their norm.  That is how they function and they just constantly take on more and more (when they were in high school, I would tell them no they couldn't take on more.  Now as adults, I personally think they are insane b/c they constantly add another thing to what they are doing.)  

Equally, I have kids who are low energy, go with the flow, do their own thing personalities.  There is no way they could function like their siblings and no way I would want them to.  Does it mean that they have different post-homeschool high school options?  Absolutely.  And I think that is where these conversations derail. 

Not every student needs to be creating a transcript/resume that is a fit for ultra-competitive schools.  It can be hard to fathom when you don't have kids fitting across the "personality spectrum."  But, my kids would be absolutely miserable trying to fit into the profile of their siblings.  The bigger question in my opinion is whether or not kids are allowed to follow the path that they want to take. I do believe high school jrs and srs are fully capable of deciding what path forward they want to take.  If they are presented with "this is what you need in order to pursue what you say you want to do," what choices do they make and what efforts do they put forward to make it happen? 

My high-energy driven kids research their goals.  They push themselves to their limits.  They actively search out opportunities to pursue their interests.

My not-so-driven kids don't.  I have to spend more time researching what is out there and guiding them to do the same.  I lay out their options......this path leads here and this path leads here and taking this path means that you don't have those options and taking this path means you have these options.  I let them mull over things, but there is no way I am making decisions for them.  They will be the adults that have to take ownership over where their lives go. 

So, I have kids who have read Les Mis in French or took 3 300 level courses DE while simultaneously taking 7 crs at home while doing a long list of outside activities.  But, I also have kids who have taken very avg high school courses and have very few outside ECs. 

My current 12th grader is an extreme introvert who is drained by outside activities.  She forces herself to do a few, but she has absolutely no desire to engage in any more than she does.  Her favorite past-time is creative writing.  She is writing a novel that is well over 85,000 words at this point.  She isn't writing it for any other reason than that she wants to.  (I haven't read it, though she has told me the story line.)  I am pretty sure that she is going to be happy with graduating from college locally, getting a job locally, etc.  It is who she is.  She is definitely not her brother who thrives on challenging academics as his thrills.  Does that matter?  Not in the slightest. Does it mean her college options are limited? Absolutely.  But, the real question is does that matter?  The answer is no.  

Edited September 30, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[alewife]

6 hours ago, Frances said:

(snip)

So while I completely agree with you that heavy AP/DE may not be the best path for anyone, for us, eight of those classes, chosen by him, combined with homegrown and co-op classes did work well. I think it depends greatly on the child and their goals. My son would absolutely have withered had we done AP or DE or online classes primarily in an attempt to demonstrate rigor or to check boxes for requirements. Instead, we used it as a way for him to pursue his interests and passions, but kept things relatively sane by letting him drive the bus in those areas and then balanced it with ungraded co-op classes (also chosen by him) and homegrown courses.

My kids would have withered as well if we would have used that approach.  We did AP classes in their areas of interest and AP material was the natural progression of their studies.  Many of the AP classes were also home-brewed, so they didn't have the time pressures of deadlines like they would with an online class.  We also schooled year-round, with a much lighter load in the summer, which also enabled the kids to fit in their time consuming ECs and still have downtime each day.

I did not have much luck when selecting online classes and ended up dropping the vast majority of them a few weeks into the class.  I have read some comments over the years that people think that taking an online class or coop class "looks better" to colleges than a home-brewed class.  From my conversations with coaches, the grades from an online class or coop carries no more weight than the grade that I assign in a home-brewed class - all are unknown entities to the adcoms.

 

[Farrar]

9 hours ago, Frances said:

Is the one with a passion Ballet Boy? I certainly think that would be a major EC for college admissions, at least for more selective schools, even if he doesn’t plan to major in dance. But I have no idea what kinds of schools he is looking at. For the vast majority of colleges, I don’t think ECs actually matter much because they accept most kids who apply. But they are pretty life enriching and major learning areas for lots of kids.

Yeah. But he's got a plan. A very good one. He's not planning on college right away. He's definitely not interested in majoring in dance, though if he ends up going to college right out of high school, he'll consider it as a minor or would like to be at a school with a good program so he can continue dancing on the side.

But dance will likely not get this kid into schools. I know it's an EC that will look good... but just knowing what his profile would be if we really relied on that... he'd actually like to leave home next year possibly and it's one of the reasons I'm very hesitant. Because then he really would only have dance and a very basic diploma for whatever we did to call junior and senior year done and legal.

[Roadrunner]

7 hours ago, madteaparty said:

I don’t want to make one; I find the idea abhorrent. I’m just trying to figure out how to do school with this particular kid. I suspect that’s what most people are trying to sort, what school should look like in a context of relative isolation. 

 

Yep. I find it abhorrent as well.

 

and AP/DE is a perfect match for my kid, so no matter how “boring” it looks, he is most likely to thrive with that.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Roadrunner

[Caraway]

On 9/28/2019 at 11:28 PM, Meriwether said:

My daughter is a wonderful kid, but she isn't that kind of kid.

Yes, true over here too.

On 9/28/2019 at 11:55 PM, lewelma said:

 

I disagree.  Going to a standard college is not shutting doors.  You make your own experience at any university, and you can get an outstanding education at ANY college you go to. 

 

My own experience did not demonstrate this.  I worked my ass off, got amazing grades, and ruthlessly sought out relationships and opportunities at a "great" state school.  My husband went to a "better" school and was given an exponentially more valuable education (both in terms of learned material and ultimate job opportunities/connections) while being a hardworking but average student.

23 hours ago, alewife said:

What are you currently doing that you are only doing because you feel like you have to in order to "play the game?"  Does your son feel like he is missing the freedom of homeschooling?  If he could have complete control of his education, would it look similar to how it is now?

I have a son who was a 5-star recruit looking to attend highly selective colleges a few years ago.  He limited his recruiting to the Ivy League (D1 "lite") and the NESCAC, so I don't have any first-hand experience with other conferences.  I will share my son's journey in case you would find it useful.

My son followed his passions in high school, and his transcript reflected his interests.  The only time he felt like he was "doing something to look good to colleges" and "playing the game" was when I made him study a foreign language - which he did for 3 years and hated every second of it.  The vast majority of his classes were "home-brewed."   He did not have any DE classes.  He did have high SAT scores, Subject Test scores and AP scores, though, which the coaches told him he needed to validate his transcript and get him past the admissions offices.  However, these standardized tests were testing topics that he would have studied in our homeschool even if there wasn't a standardized test that tested that knowledge.  

The college application process is different for a recruited athlete than it is for a traditional applicant.  Your son should begin reaching out to college coaches by at least the beginning  of next year.  I have found that the college coaches are much more forthcoming when answering questions compared to an admissions officer.  The college coaches will be able to tell your son what he needs to do in order to get past the pre-read process in admissions and be offered a slot by the coach.  

Bottom line is that your son does not have to give up the freedom of homeschooling if he wants to continue his sport at a highly selective school.  But, based on my son's experience, he will have to take a few standardized tests beyond the ACT/SAT in order to validate the grades on his homeschool transcript with the admissions office.

Good luck.

 

Nice to hear from someone who has been through this.  Currently DS wants to a recruited athlete, but nothing is set in stone.  I am trying to make sure that his sport doesn't limit his education and also that his education doesn't limit his sport.  

I think that most of what we are doing is playing the game.  Its not like we are saying "hey, history was interesting, let's take a year to only study the fall of Rome."  It's very much the sequence of high school.  I mean I think his education is generally better than what I received in high school, but it is the typical checklist of obligations.  

22 hours ago, Farrar said:

I guess I'm left frustrated when I read threads like these.

On the one hand, people say, "Hey, chill out! Relax your schedule! It'll all be FINE!"

But then when people talk about the specifics of what that looks like, I find it's still unobtainable for many if not most students. A courseload that's more than full plus an average of nearly 30 hours of EC's is not a relaxed schedule. And I don't mean to pick on Merriweather at all. I have seen this on so many threads. Someone says that a subject is "too much" or that a schedule is "too stressful" and people say, hey, relax. And then they offer their vision of "relaxed" and it's often like, "Oh we're just reading Anna Karenina, War and Peace, and Don Quixote but we're hardly writing about them at all just like one research essay!" Or, "My kid needed a relaxed math path, so we're just doing AP stats!" Or, "We really cut back our hours with music and now he's only performing in one symphony so he has time for research chemistry!"

And I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume these aren't obnoxious humblebrags. Everyone's needs and reference points are going to be different.

For me, I feel like the best advice is to step off the path everyone else is following. I think when we try to compete with more credits, more AP/DE, and just generally try to look more like schools, that's when we're at a disadvantage - whether it's a "relaxed" schedule or not. And not having to worry about competing with a million public school kids who are on similar paths should make it feel more relaxed, even if it's not really.

 

1000%.  I love that everyone is doing what is best for them.  But.  When I feel like I am drowning and then someone tells me to relax and cut back because they are *only* doing THESE MASSIVE THINGS it seems like not only should I NOT cut back I need to add a few things to reach the minimum.  

 

18 hours ago, Farrar said:

The bolded is really key to me. People like to act like you can do it all. But I have found it is just not true. You have to make choices. I agree with what you're saying, absolutely - if you can motivate a kid, then you can cut time sometimes. But then when people (and again, not you per se... I really do think we're all doing it to some extent) put that out here, I feel like there's a sense of hubris sometimes - a sort of, we managed to find a way to be more relaxed and do just as much high level work! And it's like, but maybe that's not totally replicable for all families and students. Like, having been in the classroom with a lot of students, I would not say it's common, even with motivation in a small class with a ton of attention or tutoring situation to be able to literally double a student's output and learning rate. It's definitely not possible for my kids. Sometimes they slow down when they're motivated because they're weird like that. And there are always going to be some boxes they have to check to be able to even have the opportunity to apply to college that will never motivate them (except in the "I am content to do this because I see how it fulfills my larger goals" way).

 

 

I think part of my struggle is also that the choices are made within the context of a family.  There is a constant push/pull relationship with what is sustainable.  What is good for DS may be very bad for the rest of us.  Part of this whole issue is my own need to breathe, sleep, and enjoy my own life.  

 

[Caraway]

16 hours ago, Farrar said:

 Follow your passion turns out to be terrible advice for most people.

 

This shut me down for YEARS as a high school/college student.  I have to find something I am able to do, can earn a living at, and I have to LOVE it too?!?!  It paralyzed me - and I'm a person with a LOT of passions.  I would have done so much better if someone (anyone!) would have asked some basic questions.  What type of lifestyle do you want - long work hours or short?  Are you working inside or outside?  Are you working independently, directly with customers, or in a group?  Do you want to work intensely for more money or have more freedom but less money?  How do you feel about risk?  Have you considered xyz?  Gah, I'm still so angry about the passion discussion.

[hollyhock2]

6 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I am pretty sure that she is going to be happy with graduating from college locally, getting a job locally, etc.  It is who she is.  She is definitely not her brother who thrives on challenging academics as his thrills.  Does that matter?  Not in the slightest. Does it mean her college options are limited? Absolutely.  But, the real question is does that matter?  The answer is no.  

 

Amen to this. 💗

[8filltheheart]

17 minutes ago, hollyhock2 said:

 

Amen to this. 💗

I will add a caution to my comment, though. We do owe it to our children as both their teachers and their guidance counselors to provide them with accurate information and feedback about their goals in relation to the academic level they are achieving. For example, a student struggling to graduate from high school with an alg 2 level of math but who is dreaming about a career in astronomy needs to understand that is an unrealistic expectation.

While I say it is ok for my dd to attend locally and work locally, it is bc those are her goals. If she had dreams of some high-powered career in her field of interest, I would be frank with her that she has not demonstrated the behavior necessary for achieving that goal.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Caraway said:

My own experience did not demonstrate this.  I worked my ass off, got amazing grades, and ruthlessly sought out relationships and opportunities at a "great" state school.  My husband went to a "better" school and was given an exponentially more valuable education (both in terms of learned material and ultimate job opportunities/connections) while being a hardworking but average student.

 

Nice to hear from someone who has been through this.  Currently DS wants to a recruited athlete, but nothing is set in stone.  I am trying to make sure that his sport doesn't limit his education and also that his education doesn't limit his sport.  

I think that most of what we are doing is playing the game.  Its not like we are saying "hey, history was interesting, let's take a year to only study the fall of Rome."  It's very much the sequence of high school.  I mean I think his education is generally better than what I received in high school, but it is the typical checklist of obligations.  

 

1000%.  I love that everyone is doing what is best for them.  But.  When I feel like I am drowning and then someone tells me to relax and cut back because they are *only* doing THESE MASSIVE THINGS it seems like not only should I NOT cut back I need to add a few things to reach the minimum.  

 

 

I think part of my struggle is also that the choices are made within the context of a family.  There is a constant push/pull relationship with what is sustainable.  What is good for DS may be very bad for the rest of us.  Part of this whole issue is my own need to breathe, sleep, and enjoy my own life.  

 

I think you are in a difficult spot due to some outside constraints (CA resident, NCAA requirements) and internal (needing to outsource most or all classes for a variety of reasons and balance needs of other family members) combined with a strong desire for an elite school. I may be missing something, but it sounds like the only option is doing what you’re doing, basically a rigorous traditional college prep curriculum, outsourced, because tailoring or doing home brewed classes is not currently possible. So in that context I think it’s very normal to feel like you are playing the game and for him to feel like it is a grind. I’m guessing it’s very similar for many families with kids in brick and mortar schools with similar college aspirations and a major EC, especially in CA.

 If he is at the level to be a recruited athlete for crew, that is an amazing hook for elite schools. Hopefully, once the recruiting process starts,  he will be able to more clearly see the light at the end of the tunnel and you will know more precisely what he needs for academic credentials. 

And if he’s your first to go through this process, it’s also completely normal to feel overwhelmed and stressed and worried that you are messing things up. And it is much easier for those of us who have btdt to try and assure you that everything will be ok because it worked out fine for our kids, than it is for you to believe it when you are in the middle of it. I remember well my stressing over everything during the high school years.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Frances

[alewife]

6 hours ago, Frances said:

I think you are in a difficult spot due to some outside constraints (CA resident, NCAA requirements) and internal (needing to outsource most or all classes for a variety of reasons and balance needs of other family members) combined with a strong desire for an elite school. I may be missing something, but it sounds like the only option is doing what you’re doing, basically a rigorous traditional college prep curriculum, outsourced, because tailoring or doing home brewed classes is not currently possible. So in that context I think it’s very normal to feel like you are playing the game and for him to feel like it is a grind. I’m guessing it’s very similar for many families with kids in brick and mortar schools with similar college aspirations and a major EC, especially in CA.

 If he is at the level to be a recruited athlete for crew, that is an amazing hook for elite schools. Hopefully, once the recruiting process starts,  he will be able to more clearly see the light at the end of the tunnel and you will know more precisely what he needs for academic credentials. 

And if he’s your first to go through this process, it’s also completely normal to feel overwhelmed and stressed and worried that you are messing things up. And it is much easier for those of us who have btdt to try and assure you that everything will be ok because it worked out fine for our kids, than it is for you to believe it when you are in the middle of it. I remember well my stressing over everything during the high school years.

I agree.  The OP's son will definitely know where he stands once he begins reaching out to coaches.  I am not familiar with the crew recruiting time-frame, but I just read an article this week stating how the recruiting process for my son's sport has accelerated since he went through the process.  I thought my son was early when he accepted a slot in March of his junior year, but now, some kids are now going through the process in their sophomore year.

OP, if you are not familiar with the recruiting time frame for crew, I would check in to when the process starts.  A coach is given a specific number of slots by the admissions office.  You want to make sure your son gets on the radars of the coaches before they give away all of their slots.

Good luck!