I think I'm screwing this all up

[Caraway]

My oldest child is a 16 yo sophomore, homeschooled since the beginning.  He takes most of his classes live online, although this year we added an online AP and a local DE.  He is a smart kid, but not a genius.  His main passion in life is crew, which consumes 24+ hours a week.  

I feel like maybe I'm making all the wrong decisions because I'm worried about college admissions.  There is very little "slack" in our days and I am pushing, pushing, pushing.  Now, I also contend that he IS wasting time and making everything take longer than it needs to, which further reduces his free time.  

IDK where I'm going with this.  Just that it all seems so hard and unknown and fragile.  I feel like maybe we are missing the freedom of homeschooling because we are still caught in the game.  But I also don't want to get to the end and have failed him.  

How do you find the balance?

[Farrar]

He's doing well in AP and DE classes and has an EC that he's passionate about. That sounds like a kid in pretty good shape. You're feeling fragile, but how's HE feeling? Is he busy and occasionally overwhelmed but basically happy? Or does he feel like he's stuck in an neverending grind? What are his goals? What sort of colleges are you aiming for? How's he likely to do on testing? All of that feeds into the picture about whether or not you're pushing too much or have the wrong balance. If he's just planning to attend CC and then transfer to a state school, for example, then back off and insert some more joy. If he's hoping to get into a school that's somewhat or more selective, then maybe there are ways to recalibrate your balance and maintain your goals.

Right now, I feel like in order to "get ahead" a lot of homeschoolers are playing the AP/DE game and it's not always to our advantage or our kids' advantage or our goals. I think there are ways that we could be doing things at home that would be superior and rigorous and less stressful and more interesting to admissions at certain schools. Some of the posters here have definitely not done that route and gotten kids into some great schools.

That said, high school takes TIME. And my high schoolers are feeling it too. So even if you try to keep things more relaxed, it can still be difficult to get that balance.

[teachermom2834]

I think it is important to identify goals. I speak with homeschoolers online and IRL who believe they need to do all these things to “look good to colleges” or “for scholarships”. Maybe but maybe not. Likely not.

I hear a lot of angst from homeschool moms about the intimidating college admissions process yet I know hardly anyone who applies to, let alone attends, any competitive schools. So that is a lot of worry and pressure that doesn’t even apply. 

So, primarily I think you have to identify goals. For my family we have gotten off the “looks good to colleges” mindset and are doing what is best for each individual child at each stage trusting the college stuff will shake out. 

Yes, if your plan is to shoot for competitive colleges then that is something to be pursuing intensely. But, the vast majority of schools admit students and award scholarships based on GPA and test scores and don’t even dig into the extras. Most don’t even require essays. 

So it really depends! But yes it is hard. I used to say that homeschooling high school is one big exercise in self doubt. (I don’t feel that way so much anymore though 🙂).

[Farrar]

18 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I hear a lot of angst from homeschool moms about the intimidating college admissions process yet I know hardly anyone who applies to, let alone attends, any competitive schools. So that is a lot of worry and pressure that doesn’t even apply. 

Gosh, I do too. And now, because I counsel homeschool families, I hear it a good bit. And sometimes I'm like, okay, so what are we aiming for in making this plan, only to realize they're only planning on CC followed by a local four year. And it's like, um, stop angsting yourselves out! You don't even need to tackle this stuff unless it's for fun. Which is not to say that rigor can't still be important, but things like AP's which are just a way to "look rigorous" to colleges, don't need to be on the table at all. Do it on your own terms. Like, a kid who is going to CC for sure doesn't need to stress out with a slate of AP classes or trying to make their EC's look good. I mean, come on. But there's a disconnect there in how people are approaching it.

[teachermom2834]

Our state flagship and the large out of state university one ds attends do not even require APs or extracurriculars and those are top 100 universities. So not elite by any stretch but good schools that are somewhat selective. I have a family member in admissions at a public U that is more prestigious than those two (I won’t out the school) that told me extracurriculars don’t enter the equation at all. She said they get thousands of applications and there is no way they are going to sit around and try to assign some kind of value to being captain of the soccer team vs. going on a mission trip vs. playing in an orchestra.

My oldest ds had tons of great ecs and (athletic and service and academic competitions) and a much more impressive transcript than my second ds. My second ds had zero ecs (literally) and a wimpier transcript with a lot of soft de classes. They had similar test scores and GPAs and they had the exact same admissions/ scholarship outcome.

Not saying competitive schools aren’t a whole different ballgame. I understand they are. 

Also competitive scholarships committees will surely dig deeper into an application. But I think those often go to kids with an “it factor” that you can’t really manufacture in the way I see people trying to do.

[JoJosMom]

My only advice is to read the posts from parents who have actually been there and done that. They truly are the experts and, thankfully, we have lots of them here.

As for your doubts, I totally understand and sympathize. My only is now a senior. We are in the application process, and I am reasonably certain that I am going to have a nervous breakdown. And I'm not quite sure how hyperbolic that is. ((Caraway))

[8filltheheart]

My sr is applying to college with all classes taken at home except for German which she takes online. No APs. No DE. Not worried at all. She is my 6th homeschool grad.Homeschoolers tend to spin anxiety about applying to college that just does not need to exist.

[Roadrunner]

Welcome to the club 🙂

I think I have posted a lot about looking for balance and trying to sort out and prioritize between it all. It’s hard not to worry, especially if you are in crazed CA where state school admissions are just as hard and as selective as some private schools. I have days when I think every decision we made was wrong. I think at the end of the day what matters is how the kids themselves feel about their schedules and preferences. We roll here one day at a time and given my child’s sensitive nature and disdain for everything competitive, I have given up on pushing. He is who he is.  

[madteaparty]

I have not been there or done any of that, but I find this focus on 4 years of college, years and years ahead of time, a little bit insane and frankly uniquely American. Kind of like the obsession with early reading but on some steroids. I think it’s reflective of middle class angst and I admit the temptation to give in is there for me too.  As it is, if I screwed up, I would have screwed up in my own unique way. Write a book about all the way I’ve messed this up,  I tell DS😂, it’ll be a bestseller.  I also think we overestimate how much of an effect we have. 

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I have not been there or done any of that, but I find this focus on 4 years of college, years and years ahead of time, a little bit insane and frankly uniquely American. Kind of like the obsession with early reading but on some steroids. 

 

My friends tell me early reading obsession is going global now. 😋 total insanity.

 

[Farrar]

48 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I have not been there or done any of that, but I find this focus on 4 years of college, years and years ahead of time, a little bit insane and frankly uniquely American. Kind of like the obsession with early reading but on some steroids. I think it’s reflective of middle class angst and I admit the temptation to give in is there for me too.  As it is, if I screwed up, I would have screwed up in my own unique way. Write a book about all the way I’ve messed this up,  I tell DS😂, it’ll be a bestseller.  I also think we overestimate how much of an effect we have. 

I know of multiple homeschool families whose kids didn't want college to be their first school, so they wanted to go to high school, so they ended up going to... fifth grade. Like, SERIOUSLY?!? But yes, that's the rationale. They just keep drawing backwards until it's like, and your kindergartener needs to worry about this stuff too.

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 9/25/2019 at 1:05 PM, Caraway said:

...

IDK where I'm going with this.  Just that it all seems so hard and unknown and fragile.  I feel like maybe we are missing the freedom of homeschooling because we are still caught in the game.  But I also don't want to get to the end and have failed him.  

How do you find the balance?

 

You have what 2-3 more years with him?  He is pursuing what he loves with a passion?  He is even taking AP and DE classes to verify that he can indeed function in a classroom?  He doesn't even need to hit every AP subject out there and he doesn't need to take all classes on a DE or college level. Make sure he sufficiently prepares for the standardized testing and takes the ACT or SAT (whichever you deem to be his stronger option) 2 times junior year.  Focus on those passions in college admissions essays and interviews.  To be honest, DD's admissions counselor has had lunch with her a few times since she went to school.  One day she went on a tangent about how hard it is to see kid after kid just jumping through admissions hoops with no passions or interests.  In the end, it is easy to toss their apps aside, because they all look the same.  Look, here is just one more perfect score on the SAT with lots of AP's - next.  

 

ETA - even what I state about some AP's and some outsourced classes or taking the test 2 times is really only applicable for selective colleges.  There is nothing wrong with skipping ALL of that and heading to a local school or state school. ❤️ 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Attolia

[8filltheheart]

Lol! My last 2 kids both only took the SAT once. At least my current college student took it jr yr. My current 12th grader finally decided to take it in Aug (and refuses to take it again, which is ok bc she scored well.) The latter approach, sr yr, is not one I would recommend, but equally, I expect my kids to take ownership over their  looming adulthood, so the impetus to succeed is on them. A job or the local CC is their only option if they don't. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

14 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Lol! My last 2 kids both only took the SAT once. At least my current college student took it jr yr. My current 12th grader finally decided to take it in Aug (and refuses to take it again, which is ok bc she scored well.) The latter approach, sr yr, is not one I would recommend, but equally, I expect my kids to take ownership over their  looming adulthood, so the impetus to succeed is on them. A job or the local CC is their only option if they don't. 

 

ok true haha.  DD was applying to super selective schools so she needed more on her resume.  She took the ACT 2 times. DS wasn't headed to a super selective school so he just took it once. ❤️  It really depends on your goals right?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Attolia

[lewelma]

My ds did not decided to apply to American Schools until April of his Junior year. NZ has a totally different system for admission (exam based and narrow focus allowed), which meant that we had not been trying to design the perfect transcript and ECs for American universities for years before. We made only 3 changes to his long standing educational and EC approach in that April: 1) he spent 1 month studying for the SAT because the only time he could take it was May, so he took it just once. 2) He organized to lead an olympiad math class his senior year because we knew he needed to show leadership, and 3) He added Economics/Government  and  4th year Mandarin to his senior courses. That was it. Everything else stood on its own. His entire school career, he had followed his own path without ANY consideration to what American Schools wanted to see. And what we had done was GOOD ENOUGH. Sure, he is a high-end kid, but so are many students who are trying so desperately to do what they think admissions wants to see rather than what their kid wants to study. Authenticity sells. Let your kid be himself and then sell his authenticity. 

One side effect of ignoring the external educational environment in which your student resides, is that you may have to explain *why* you did NOT do what all the others did, why you didn't follow the standard impressive testing path. I had to explain two quite glaring problems. 1) DS self studied most high end classes (university level) with no outside verification at all. I explained that he took 2 classes at the university, found them too easy, and decided to go it on his own.  I sold the idea that he desired to  LEARN, not take courses, and that he organized and self directed these courses to follow his passions. That he took advantage of his educational freedom to become the learner he wanted to be. 2) He did not take the most rigorous NZ high school exams. Most universities are looking to see if you have taken the most rigorous classes available to you. And from the point of view of state-dictated testing, my ds hadn't.  I explained that he only used NZ exams for NZ university entrance, and all of his national-curriculum courses were self studied to a much higher level than required by the set national curriculum and exams. So War & Peace and Crime & Punishment for English, even though the national exams accepted much less difficult books. Basically, I sold the idea that he directed a top notch education, and that the external verification that he used was at a lower level than the work he was doing. I wanted to make sure to not just explain the questions I anticipated admissions would have, but to then turn it around to make what ds did look like the better choice for him -- the more engaged and self directed course. 

Having read about the mad scramble people go through to try to ensure acceptance, I am so glad that we side stepped the whole thing. Recently, I have been reading a book out of Harvard that evaluated the American education system for critical thinking "In search of deeper learning" by Mehta and Fine, and they found that the best teachers "buffered" their students from the external educational environment of testing. That if you focus on the outcome (testing, transcripts, ECs, looking good), you lose track of the learning.  Learning and engagement needs to be first for critical thinking to develop. If you can do this, and I know it is a big IF when you feel so much pressure to keep up, then your kid can get a great education.  Then it is all about how you sell it to the people making the decisions. My ds did not get in to everywhere he applied, but he got 3 great acceptances to choose from, all of which would have been a great fit. 

Ruth in NZ

Edited September 26, 2019 by lewelma

[Nicholas_mom]

To the OP-- I feel the same way as you do.  I need this thread of encouragement and the "permission"  to be homeschoolers, designing the courses to our teen's interests and their way of learning.  It kind be hard to let go.

Thank you for starting this thread!

[Momto6inIN]

I'm on my 3rd sophomore and I think sophomore and junior years are the worst for the overwhelmed feelings. Freshman year they are easing unto high school and it's all kinda new and fun, senior year they are mostly done with apps and the end is in sight, so those 2 years aren't bad. But sophomore and junior year they are in the thick of it with tougher classes and putting all those executive functions skills to the test with lots less hand holding from me while simultaneously it's hittting them (and me!) that their "future" is almost here ... it's pretty much a perfect storm for emotions. Hang in there, mama, it sounds like he's doing well!

[Frances]

It sounds like maybe all of his classes are outsourced with at least three different providers? While I wouldn’t be worried about college admissions, I think that schedule with 24 hours of crew does sound pretty daunting, just keeping up with all of the different schedules, assignments, etc. Are they all classes he chose and really wanted to take? 

Especially when you have a kids with a major passion, I think the high school years are always going to be a bit crazy. The main thing I would reconsider for next year is outsourcing so much because one of the beauties of homeschooling can be taking more control of your schedule and learning, but that’s harder to do if almost all your classes are created and run by someone else on their schedule. And I’m guessing both of you feel more pressure about grades with all of the outsourced classes.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Frances

[Caraway]

On 9/25/2019 at 10:32 AM, Farrar said:

He's doing well in AP and DE classes and has an EC that he's passionate about. That sounds like a kid in pretty good shape. You're feeling fragile, but how's HE feeling? Is he busy and occasionally overwhelmed but basically happy? Or does he feel like he's stuck in an neverending grind? What are his goals? What sort of colleges are you aiming for? How's he likely to do on testing? All of that feeds into the picture about whether or not you're pushing too much or have the wrong balance. If he's just planning to attend CC and then transfer to a state school, for example, then back off and insert some more joy. If he's hoping to get into a school that's somewhat or more selective, then maybe there are ways to recalibrate your balance and maintain your goals.

Right now, I feel like in order to "get ahead" a lot of homeschoolers are playing the AP/DE game and it's not always to our advantage or our kids' advantage or our goals. I think there are ways that we could be doing things at home that would be superior and rigorous and less stressful and more interesting to admissions at certain schools. Some of the posters here have definitely not done that route and gotten kids into some great schools.

That said, high school takes TIME. And my high schoolers are feeling it too. So even if you try to keep things more relaxed, it can still be difficult to get that balance.

 

He's looking at highly selective schools where he can continue his sport.  I think it all feels like a constant grind to him.  Although I'm not sure that a significant reduction would *feel* like less of a grind because he's a teenager and it will always feel like extrinsic pressure?

[Caraway]

On 9/25/2019 at 11:05 AM, teachermom2834 said:

I think it is important to identify goals. I speak with homeschoolers online and IRL who believe they need to do all these things to “look good to colleges” or “for scholarships”. Maybe but maybe not. Likely not.

I hear a lot of angst from homeschool moms about the intimidating college admissions process yet I know hardly anyone who applies to, let alone attends, any competitive schools. So that is a lot of worry and pressure that doesn’t even apply. 

So, primarily I think you have to identify goals. For my family we have gotten off the “looks good to colleges” mindset and are doing what is best for each individual child at each stage trusting the college stuff will shake out. 

Yes, if your plan is to shoot for competitive colleges then that is something to be pursuing intensely. But, the vast majority of schools admit students and award scholarships based on GPA and test scores and don’t even dig into the extras. Most don’t even require essays. 

So it really depends! But yes it is hard. I used to say that homeschooling high school is one big exercise in self doubt. (I don’t feel that way so much anymore though 🙂).

Hmm, this must be regional.  Everyone around here is top 50 schools or state schools (which are insane to get into).  

I think part of my issue is that it is all a guessing game.  I would be better off with a guaranteed admissions checklist.  Right now I feel like I am playing the game but I'm not sure if there will be a payoff.

[Caraway]

22 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Welcome to the club 🙂

I think I have posted a lot about looking for balance and trying to sort out and prioritize between it all. It’s hard not to worry, especially if you are in crazed CA where state school admissions are just as hard and as selective as some private schools. I have days when I think every decision we made was wrong. I think at the end of the day what matters is how the kids themselves feel about their schedules and preferences. We roll here one day at a time and given my child’s sensitive nature and disdain for everything competitive, I have given up on pushing. He is who he is.  

 

Yes, we have been advised by multiple people to treat our state schools like a random lottery.  Too may great students being rejected to consider them anything but a reach school for all.  😣

20 hours ago, lewelma said:

 

Having read about the mad scramble people go through to try to ensure acceptance, I am so glad that we side stepped the whole thing. Recently, I have been reading a book out of Harvard that evaluated the American education system for critical thinking "In search of deeper learning" by Mehta and Fine, and they found that the best teachers "buffered" their students from the external educational environment of testing. That if you focus on the outcome (testing, transcripts, ECs, looking good), you lose track of the learning.  Learning and engagement needs to be first for critical thinking to develop. If you can do this, and I know it is a big IF when you feel so much pressure to keep up, then your kid can get a great education.  Then it is all about how you sell it to the people making the decisions. My ds did not get in to everywhere he applied, but he got 3 great acceptances to choose from, all of which would have been a great fit. 

Ruth in NZ

 

I agree 1000%.  But it is hard to maintain the deeper engagement while also staying  a desirable applicant for what you think is coming in the future.

18 hours ago, Nicholas_mom said:

To the OP-- I feel the same way as you do.  I need this thread of encouragement and the "permission"  to be homeschoolers, designing the courses to our teen's interests and their way of learning.  It kind be hard to let go.

Thank you for starting this thread!

 

❤️❤️❤️

15 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

I'm on my 3rd sophomore and I think sophomore and junior years are the worst for the overwhelmed feelings. Freshman year they are easing unto high school and it's all kinda new and fun, senior year they are mostly done with apps and the end is in sight, so those 2 years aren't bad. But sophomore and junior year they are in the thick of it with tougher classes and putting all those executive functions skills to the test with lots less hand holding from me while simultaneously it's hittting them (and me!) that their "future" is almost here ... it's pretty much a perfect storm for emotions. Hang in there, mama, it sounds like he's doing well!

 

Yeah, it is really intense.  The whole thing, from the outside, seems so ... ridiculous.

14 hours ago, Frances said:

It sounds like maybe all of his classes are outsourced with at least three different providers? While I wouldn’t be worried about college admissions, I think that schedule with 24 hours of crew does sound pretty daunting, just keeping up with all of the different schedules, assignments, etc. Are they all classes he chose and really wanted to take? 

Especially when you have a kids with a major passion, I think the high school years are always going to be a bit crazy. The main thing I would reconsider for next year is outsourcing so much because one of the beauties of homeschooling can be taking more control of your schedule and learning, but that’s harder to do if almost all your classes are created and run by someone else on their schedule. And I’m guessing both of you feel more pressure about grades with all of the outsourced classes.

I have multiple kids at very different ages.  I have found that if there isn't outside accountability I'm not getting it done.  I do feel more pressure about grades, but I also feel really stressed about what I've signed up to cover that isn't getting covered.  

They are clearly not classes he wants to take, but assuming that he wants NCAA approval he has to take things like math and science.  

[8filltheheart]

18 hours ago, Nicholas_mom said:

To the OP-- I feel the same way as you do.  I need this thread of encouragement and the "permission"  to be homeschoolers, designing the courses to our teen's interests and their way of learning.  It kind be hard to let go.

Thank you for starting this thread!

Not only can your students be accepted with your kids' designing their courses, they can win top competitive scholarships, too. My dd won 1 of the elite 20 scholarships at her school and had zero APs and an online DE class spring of sr yr. What she did have was a passion for languages and 15 language credits and Russian awards. Her high school experience was pure her.

[teachermom2834]

44 minutes ago, Caraway said:

Hmm, this must be regional.  Everyone around here is top 50 schools or state schools (which are insane to get into).  

I think part of my issue is that it is all a guessing game.  I would be better off with a guaranteed admissions checklist.  Right now I feel like I am playing the game but I'm not sure if there will be a payoff.

Okay then my advice doesn’t apply to you but it does apply to lots of people lurking and stressing. I will say when we tour our little southern state schools we always have people on our tours from California. I used to scratch my head but I have read enough of these threads to see why some go so far from their home state for just average schools.

[Reefgazer]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 1:05 PM, Caraway said:

My oldest child is a 16 yo sophomore, homeschooled since the beginning.  He takes most of his classes live online, although this year we added an online AP and a local DE.  He is a smart kid, but not a genius.  His main passion in life is crew, which consumes 24+ hours a week.  

I feel like maybe I'm making all the wrong decisions because I'm worried about college admissions.  There is very little "slack" in our days and I am pushing, pushing, pushing.  Now, I also contend that he IS wasting time and making everything take longer than it needs to, which further reduces his free time.  

IDK where I'm going with this.  Just that it all seems so hard and unknown and fragile.  I feel like maybe we are missing the freedom of homeschooling because we are still caught in the game.  But I also don't want to get to the end and have failed him.  

How do you find the balance?

I am here, as well.  I pushed my DD hard, and she has quite a record of achievement.  But I often wonder at what cost.  OTOH, she has a friend who told her that her parents "set her up for failure", so when I hear that I am glad I was a bit pushy.  DS wastes more time than he uses wisely, and we wouldn't be so pressed for time if it weren't for that.  But I have learned lessons from DD about when to stop pushing, so I anticipate his high school years will be better.  I also think this how much to push business varies by child.

[Farrar]

Is your ds hoping to get in as a sports admit or a regular admit? Because that definitely makes a difference. Having read about the sports recruitment process a little, I'd definitely get some professional advice from sports college counselors if you can swing it. Are you bound by NCAA rules? By a state with other specific rules?

But also, how he's feeling makes a big difference. Are these his goals or "everyone's" goals?

I mean, you say that "everyone" around you is trying to get into top 50 schools. Let me assure you that's not reality. You're in a bubble - that where it's probably warping your sense of the number of different potential ways that people can find success in life. And I'm not saying that a top 50 school isn't right for this kid (I mean, I don't even know him!) and obviously good schools are mostly good. But if you're framing your lives around getting into a highly selective school then you're framing your lives around something that's not entirely in your control, and I never think that's a great idea. Aiming high is great, but not if it's the only plan. If you think sophomore year is bad on this particular path, then junior and senior year are going to be much worse and you need to keep that strongly in mind.

There are other ways to get into good schools - even to get into selective schools. But none of it is ever a guarantee. I feel like first and foremost, it's important to give your kid the education they need and want, to focus on your primary goals, and to make those goals together. And by goals I don't mean "get into Harvard" (which is really pie in the sky, but you get the idea). I mean, what is the goal of education? What sort of life does he want to have? What sort of person do you want him to be? What sort of relationship do you want to have? And then skip a few steps down... what are his bigger picture career and life goals for adulthood? Because when you hyperfocus on specific colleges or even specific strata of colleges, then you can get really stuck. Instead, think about the now and the way down the road.

[Roadrunner]

nm

Edited September 27, 2019 by Roadrunner

[8filltheheart]

47 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I don’t really understand all that is out there, but it seems to me reading the board that state schools are not cut throat reaches across the country, but are viewed as more reasonable alternatives both financially and acceptance rate wise. I think those of us in California find ourselves in a particular bind. UCs (our public universities) have become reaches for pretty much everybody while CSUs (another state school system) are for some reason hard to place for homeschoolers. Kids want to stay close to home for various reasons (financial included), so those of us who are full pay are realizing we are running out of affordable options. I think there is a lot of angst in California over college admissions and it’s not because we all agonize over Stanford, but it’s because even schools that used to be good matches for bright and academically motivated kids are becoming reaches (UC Irvine, UC Santa Cruz....). Imagine if getting into SUNY became an unreachable goal. I really don’t want to pay $70k a year for a private college and many share this sentiment. I am not sure folks outside CA are facing same sort of crazy. 

Also, a type of scenario that 8 described (getting a top scholarship without AP or DEs) is an impossibility with rigid CA state school admissions policies. Forget scholarship. You can’t even get into those schools with APs and DEs much less without them.

this isn’t directed at OP,  but it’s more of a info for those puzzled over why people on the West Coast have lost their minds. 

I do understand that CA is different and hard if kids want to stay near home. There is a reason CA and IL students dominate scholarship/honors schools.

[lewelma]

I feel so sad for CA residents.  😥 So many of us got into homeschooling to give our kids more freedom for engaging in what they are passionate about, and CA seems to do a great job rigidly defining what education should look like. 

I've been reading a ton of education peer-review literature recently that discusses how high stakes testing is the antithesis of engagement. Because of all this reading and the book I referenced above, I have been doing some soul searching trying to figure out how I created engagement even though my ds had to take 15 standardized tests through the National NZ system over 2 years (5 assessments each for Chemistry, Physics, English).  Basically, I did 2 things. 1) I did not use an external provider to teach this content.  We did it on our own, with our own resources, in our own way, at our own pace.  This meant that the year was full of engaging projects, interesting discussions, cool writing projects etc. We loved learning.  2) We did not focus on test prep until the last month (or sometimes week if it was a smaller unit). The goal was learning, the test was just at the end. This is what I think the authors meant by 'buffering' from the external education environment in which your student resides. We still had tests looming, but we simply ignored them and studied cool content in innovative ways.

Standardized tests typically test low-end learning. And the problem you have is that if you focus only on the testable content, you focus only on the lowest levels of Blooms taxonomy. What we did was focus on the full curriculum content for each assessment (deep reading, analysis, synthesis, writing) even though it would not be on the actual exam. I have seen this for the APs - the curriculum for AP Government for example is expansive but the test prep book is short and sweet. The good thing about studying the full curriculum is that you learn more, are more engaged, and can get good marks because you cover content in depth. The bad thing about this approach is that you don't have time for numerous exams because you are doing more than what is actually tested, which means you have time for fewer courses.  The moment you try to do 10 APs or some such using external providers, I can see how many students would be really stressed and not enjoying school at all.  It is a leap of faith to do it your own way and see where the chips lay. Clearly, if you are in CA and want to stay close to home, you are sunk. Your education is directed and you go from test to test. You are competing with those doing test-prep only, not real learning, so you need to do the same to remain competitive. Seems like you sacrifice your kid's high school education and mental health in the hopes (not certainty) of an affordable university education close to home. What a horrible choice. 

[Frances]

Does he have any safety schools (both in terms of admissions and dollars) in mind? Maybe if he can identify some of those, both of you will feel less pressure. If it all feels like a grind now to him, I’m not sure how that will change much if he is planning on a highly selective school with an intense sports commitment, except for perhaps that he will primarily take classes in his major at some point. I think there can be a fine line to walk between pushing him to do what needs to be done to achieve his stated goals and allowing him to take the reins and let the chips fall where they may.

If CA state schools are the only viable option, then obviously the above doesn’t apply.

[Farrar]

California is tough. But we don’t even have a state school at all. And there are states where the flagship is nearly as impossible to get into or where there isn’t a high quality state school with many paths a student might want to study. And there are states that make it nearly impossible for homeschool admits to state schools. And at least in California, there are amazing CC’s students can access throughout high school, often for free. Not so in many places.

Each state is definitely shaping what we think of as normal. And what our options are.

[Meriwether]

Last year we decided to cut back what Dd16 did and it was lovely. She had time to sit down and color while listening to an audiobook many afternoons. She doesn't have as much time for that this year because she added a job. We've also prioritized time with friends. She loves social things. Here is what she is doing besides coloring and spending time with friends:

Working 14-16 hours per week - 2 at the dojo and the rest at a library. She has been asked to teach a class at the dojo. We'll see if it fits in her schedule.
Volunteering 3 hours per week in a kindergarten classroom.
Participating in her sport for 5-15 hours per week.
Participating in theater one afternoon per week.
Taking two online classes, Latin III (does not come naturally to her) and Calculus.
Studying history, literature (both Ancients with *lots* of reading, Bible Survey,  Physics, logic, and Spanish.

She has no desire to attend a competitive school. I'm glad. She will have no AP classes, but may pick up some DE classes next year. She has no hook for a top school. She'll have good grades but a standard transcript, a good but not perfect test score, good extracurriculars but not anything that she would do in college, and a fair amount of volunteer hours but not doing something that will change the world. I spent several years worrying about whether or not we were doing enough. I eventually decided that a competitive school wasn't worth the stress. She'll be content at a state school that she'll easily get into, so I'm content that she's enjoying life.


Ds15 is easier in this regard. He couldn't do a competitive school - smart kid but a really slow worker. His test scores probably will be not much more than average due to speed. He would prefer to live at home and do cc for a couple of years and then finish at a state school. I worry about other things with him but not whether he should be trying to get into a competitive school. There is just no pressure now that he has a basic plan. We aren't even hoping for scholarships, so we are mentally prepared to pay out of pocket. He'll do fine at the cc and the state school. His days are long because school takes him a long time. He also volunteers and has a time consuming hobby and would like a job, but his free time is truly free. He needs that.

 

[Caraway]

4 hours ago, Meriwether said:

Last year we decided to cut back what Dd16 did and it was lovely. She had time to sit down and color while listening to an audiobook many afternoons. She doesn't have as much time for that this year because she added a job. We've also prioritized time with friends. She loves social things. Here is what she is doing besides coloring and spending time with friends:

Working 14-16 hours per week - 2 at the dojo and the rest at a library. She has been asked to teach a class at the dojo. We'll see if it fits in her schedule.
Volunteering 3 hours per week in a kindergarten classroom.
Participating in her sport for 5-15 hours per week.
Participating in theater one afternoon per week.
Taking two online classes, Latin III (does not come naturally to her) and Calculus.
Studying history, literature (both Ancients with *lots* of reading, Bible Survey,  Physics, logic, and Spanish.

She has no desire to attend a competitive school. I'm glad. She will have no AP classes, but may pick up some DE classes next year. She has no hook for a top school. She'll have good grades but a standard transcript, a good but not perfect test score, good extracurriculars but not anything that she would do in college, and a fair amount of volunteer hours but not doing something that will change the world. I spent several years worrying about whether or not we were doing enough. I eventually decided that a competitive school wasn't worth the stress. She'll be content at a state school that she'll easily get into, so I'm content that she's enjoying life.


Ds15 is easier in this regard. He couldn't do a competitive school - smart kid but a really slow worker. His test scores probably will be not much more than average due to speed. He would prefer to live at home and do cc for a couple of years and then finish at a state school. I worry about other things with him but not whether he should be trying to get into a competitive school. There is just no pressure now that he has a basic plan. We aren't even hoping for scholarships, so we are mentally prepared to pay out of pocket. He'll do fine at the cc and the state school. His days are long because school takes him a long time. He also volunteers and has a time consuming hobby and would like a job, but his free time is truly free. He needs that.

 

 

This still seems like A LOT.  Did you drop the quantity of classes?  Or reduce their intensity?

[Farrar]

10 minutes ago, Caraway said:

 

This still seems like A LOT.  Did you drop the quantity of classes?  Or reduce their intensity?

I'm also a bit bug-eyed that this is the "light" schedule. That's around 30 hours or more of specifically allocated extracurricular time every week. That would be too much for most kids I know in addition to a full academic schedule, even if the academic schedule was lightened.

[lewelma]

8 hours ago, Meriwether said:

Last year we decided to cut back what Dd16 did and it was lovely. 
She has no desire to attend a competitive school. I'm glad. ..... She has no hook for a top school. She'll have good grades but a standard transcript, a good but not perfect test score, good extracurriculars 
 

My younger ds is similar. Academics are only a moderate part of his life. He does 20 hours of good hard work per week 38 weeks a year. This plus 4 hours per week of reading history with his dad. 

He has a ton of *weekly* ECs - badminton, swimming, weight lifting, multisport, gymnastics, drama, violin lessons, trio, and games night. One to two activities every day totaling 18 hours per week + he walks/busses/ push scooters to each, taking an additional 6 hours = 24 hours per week.  

Quote

Did you drop the quantity of classes?  Or reduce their intensity?

 

We do not do his courses at a lower level given only 20 hours per week, instead we do fewer courses. Specifically we do 3 hours per day in unit studies that merge Geography, History, Economics, Government, and English that over 4 years can be broken into pieces for different stand alone classes for a transcript.  So lots of deep thinking - analysis, synthesis, comparison, evaluation etc on a single complex topic.  So he has currently spent 120 hours during the last 9 weeks on comparing the history, economics, government, demographics, environment, and social outcomes of Botswana vs the DRC.  And next term he will rewrite his research paper into a National Geographic article for English.

In addition to breaking up his unit studies, I can count some of his ECs as classes: 2 PE, 4 violin, and 2 drama by adding up hours over 4 years. 

My boy wants a life now. He is willing to work hard, but only for a limited number of hours. 5 hours per day, 4 days per week. We have found a way to make this work, so he can develop into the person he wants to be. 

Ruth in NZ

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[Meriwether]

3 hours ago, Caraway said:

 

This still seems like A LOT.  Did you drop the quantity of classes?  Or reduce their intensity?

She is doing 7.5 credits and she only has about a semester's worth of Spanish to do all year. Seven was typical when I was in school. 

Quantity. I think her freshman year she tried 9 credit hours? She is a fast worker. She can read her physics book and understand it and finish it at a pace of 2-3 hours per week, for example. And she is efficient. She doesn't waste any time on transitions. She dropped CAP and piano lessons this year, too, which freed up time.

And maybe quality compared to what others do, too. She will read a lot for history/lit, discuss everything, and do some writing. Not as much written work as others might have. We don't really test for these classes, either.

She only spends 15 hours per week on her sport once or twice per month. She is usually at 5-7.

I don't mean to say that she has a light schedule. More that we have chosen to do only what is important to us (including downtime and friend time), knowing it is shutting some doors. She is the kind of kid who probably could have worked toward getting into a competitive college, but she doesn't have that kind of passion. We decided not to try. 

One of my cousins has a kid who just graduated from Princeton. When he was in 7th grade he wanted to start working at a lab. I think he may have gotten to know the lab because of a science fair? The lab liked him, but there were legal difficulties. The kid, of his own initiative in 7th grade, set up a meeting with his parents, someone from the company, and the company's lawyer, so he could work there. He was there over Christmas and summer breaks until he graduated.  My daughter is a wonderful kid, but she isn't that kind of kid.

[lewelma]

12 hours ago, Meriwether said:

we have chosen to do only what is important to us (including downtime and friend time), knowing it is shutting some doors.

 

I disagree.  Going to a standard college is not shutting doors.  You make your own experience at any university, and you can get an outstanding education at ANY college you go to.  Years and years ago, I taught at Bowling Green State University in Ohio.  Yes, there were low end kids there, but there were also kids there that were VERY high end. The high end kids can rise to the top at any college if they choose to.  I do not view it as shutting doors that my younger ds wants to focus on his social and leadership skills that are not evaluated for official credit. He is getting done what he needs to get done academically without wasting his time on stupid box ticking efforts. We work VERY high end, but only do 3 subjects a day (math, science, geography).  For a transcript, I will split these up so that they understand that my ds has done the work - the hard work. He does not need to put in paper-pushing hours to be educated.  I say this with some knowledge, because I do have a kid at MIT. My older boy NEEDED MIT. He needed to be challenged by classes and by peers or I believe he would have developed into an arrogant man.  He *needs* to be second best, he *needs* to work his ass off, he *needs* the work to be hard enough to make him work his ass off. 

In contrast, my younger son wants to be a leader. He needs his ECs to develop into a leader. He needs drama to build public speaking and confidence. He needs swimming and gymnastics so that he can develop his leadership skills through mentoring/teaching the younger kids. He needs his music trio and D&D night to learn collaborative/cooperative skills.  His goal is to to solve complex world problems or to be a Mayor of a moderate-sized city.  To meet these goals, he needs to develop skills that are outside our current academic educational system.  He is not shutting doors.  He is doing what *he* needs to be the person he wants to be.  And going to a competitive college does NOT advance his cause if it requires him to loose these ECs that help him develop these very important skills. 

Ruth in NZ

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[madteaparty]

I agree with lewelma’s last post. I also find graduate admissions much more rational and transparent, and even if you went to lowest of the low ranked schools, it does not entirely erase your chances of a tippy top graduate school admissions. I think, if I screwed up this undergraduate thing so very badly, he can fix it himself when he goes to grad school. 

[Meriwether]

13 minutes ago, lewelma said:

 

I disagree.  Going to a standard college is not shutting doors.  You make your own experience at any university, and you can get an outstanding education at ANY college you go to.

I meant shutting doors to college options, not education or life.

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I meant shutting doors to college options, not education or life.

Fair enough. But it was a good starting point for me getting on my soap box.  🙂 

I've been reading a book out of Harvard University Press (In Search of Deeper Learning by Mehta and Fine), that has found that the deep learning in American schools happens at the periphery - in the ECs and the electives. They found that the academic core is consumed with low-end learning in search of higher test scores, basically breadth dictated by standardized testing/curriculum over depth. They argue that the core has a lot to learn from student-led clubs, drama productions, debate teams, and unique electives in how to engage students in critical thinking - analysis, synthesis, evaluation. It has really helped me to reassess what I am doing with my youngest.  

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, lewelma said:

Fair enough. But it was a good starting point for me getting on my soap box.  🙂 

I've been reading a book out of Harvard University Press (In Search of Deeper Learning by Mehta and Fine), that has found that the deep learning in American schools happens at the periphery - in the ECs and the electives. They found that the academic core is consumed with low-end learning in search of higher test scores, basically breadth dictated by standardized testing/curriculum over depth. They argue that the core has a lot to learn from student-led clubs, drama productions, debate teams, and unique electives in how to engage students in critical thinking - analysis, synthesis, evaluation. It has really helped me to reassess what I am doing with my youngest.  

That is not new information. American schools' methodology has been stuck on the bottom of the cognitive learning pyramid for decades. Even now, instead of recognizing the failure, the approach is to try to improve outcomes by forcing more academics at a younger age (which is even worse bc it thwarts even more cognitive development bc it refuses to recognize the critical thinking formed from free play. Adult directed everything with scheduled control over almost every minute of the day with wall to wall activities is the American norm from preschool age to graduation.)

i used to get in debates on this forum all the time with people on this subject bc it is one I am pretty passionate about and the fundamental reason I homeschoool. Occasionally I will interject this info now and then, but it is completely counter to what most people believe and want to hear.

[alewife]

On 9/25/2019 at 1:05 PM, Caraway said:

My oldest child is a 16 yo sophomore, homeschooled since the beginning.  He takes most of his classes live online, although this year we added an online AP and a local DE.  He is a smart kid, but not a genius.  His main passion in life is crew, which consumes 24+ hours a week.  

I feel like maybe I'm making all the wrong decisions because I'm worried about college admissions.  There is very little "slack" in our days and I am pushing, pushing, pushing.  Now, I also contend that he IS wasting time and making everything take longer than it needs to, which further reduces his free time.  

IDK where I'm going with this.  Just that it all seems so hard and unknown and fragile.  I feel like maybe we are missing the freedom of homeschooling because we are still caught in the game.  But I also don't want to get to the end and have failed him.  

How do you find the balance?

What are you currently doing that you are only doing because you feel like you have to in order to "play the game?"  Does your son feel like he is missing the freedom of homeschooling?  If he could have complete control of his education, would it look similar to how it is now?

On 9/27/2019 at 12:15 PM, Caraway said:

 

He's looking at highly selective schools where he can continue his sport.  I think it all feels like a constant grind to him.  Although I'm not sure that a significant reduction would *feel* like less of a grind because he's a teenager and it will always feel like extrinsic pressure?

I have a son who was a 5-star recruit looking to attend highly selective colleges a few years ago.  He limited his recruiting to the Ivy League (D1 "lite") and the NESCAC, so I don't have any first-hand experience with other conferences.  I will share my son's journey in case you would find it useful.

My son followed his passions in high school, and his transcript reflected his interests.  The only time he felt like he was "doing something to look good to colleges" and "playing the game" was when I made him study a foreign language - which he did for 3 years and hated every second of it.  The vast majority of his classes were "home-brewed."   He did not have any DE classes.  He did have high SAT scores, Subject Test scores and AP scores, though, which the coaches told him he needed to validate his transcript and get him past the admissions offices.  However, these standardized tests were testing topics that he would have studied in our homeschool even if there wasn't a standardized test that tested that knowledge.  

The college application process is different for a recruited athlete than it is for a traditional applicant.  Your son should begin reaching out to college coaches by at least the beginning  of next year.  I have found that the college coaches are much more forthcoming when answering questions compared to an admissions officer.  The college coaches will be able to tell your son what he needs to do in order to get past the pre-read process in admissions and be offered a slot by the coach.  

Bottom line is that your son does not have to give up the freedom of homeschooling if he wants to continue his sport at a highly selective school.  But, based on my son's experience, he will have to take a few standardized tests beyond the ACT/SAT in order to validate the grades on his homeschool transcript with the admissions office.

Good luck.

[Farrar]

I guess I'm left frustrated when I read threads like these.

On the one hand, people say, "Hey, chill out! Relax your schedule! It'll all be FINE!"

But then when people talk about the specifics of what that looks like, I find it's still unobtainable for many if not most students. A courseload that's more than full plus an average of nearly 30 hours of EC's is not a relaxed schedule. And I don't mean to pick on Merriweather at all. I have seen this on so many threads. Someone says that a subject is "too much" or that a schedule is "too stressful" and people say, hey, relax. And then they offer their vision of "relaxed" and it's often like, "Oh we're just reading Anna Karenina, War and Peace, and Don Quixote but we're hardly writing about them at all just like one research essay!" Or, "My kid needed a relaxed math path, so we're just doing AP stats!" Or, "We really cut back our hours with music and now he's only performing in one symphony so he has time for research chemistry!"

And I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume these aren't obnoxious humblebrags. Everyone's needs and reference points are going to be different.

For me, I feel like the best advice is to step off the path everyone else is following. I think when we try to compete with more credits, more AP/DE, and just generally try to look more like schools, that's when we're at a disadvantage - whether it's a "relaxed" schedule or not. And not having to worry about competing with a million public school kids who are on similar paths should make it feel more relaxed, even if it's not really.

[Roadrunner]

24 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I guess I'm left frustrated when I read threads like these.

On the one hand, people say, "Hey, chill out! Relax your schedule! It'll all be FINE!"

But then when people talk about the specifics of what that looks like, I find it's still unobtainable for many if not most students. A courseload that's more than full plus an average of nearly 30 hours of EC's is not a relaxed schedule. And I don't mean to pick on Merriweather at all. I have seen this on so many threads. Someone says that a subject is "too much" or that a schedule is "too stressful" and people say, hey, relax. And then they offer their vision of "relaxed" and it's often like, "Oh we're just reading Anna Karenina, War and Peace, and Don Quixote but we're hardly writing about them at all just like one research essay!" Or, "My kid needed a relaxed math path, so we're just doing AP stats!" Or, "We really cut back our hours with music and now he's only performing in one symphony so he has time for research chemistry!"

And I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume these aren't obnoxious humblebrags. Everyone's needs and reference points are going to be different.

For me, I feel like the best advice is to step off the path everyone else is following. I think when we try to compete with more credits, more AP/DE, and just generally try to look more like schools, that's when we're at a disadvantage - whether it's a "relaxed" schedule or not. And not having to worry about competing with a million public school kids who are on similar paths should make it feel more relaxed, even if it's not really.

❤️

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I guess I'm left frustrated when I read threads like these. On the one hand, people say, "Hey, chill out! Relax your schedule! It'll all be FINE!"

But then when people talk about the specifics of what that looks like, I find it's still unobtainable for many if not most students.

 

Quote

And I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume these aren't obnoxious humblebrags.

Ah, sorry. I guess my enthusiasm for *finally* finding a path for my younger got me carried away.  I have fought him for years to up his workload, to move faster, to do more.  But it has been like pushing sh** up hill. Keep in mind, this boy has disgraphia, and still misspelled his name at age 12. Once I actually chose to look at what he was learning outside official schooling, I finally started to relax. Our educational system does not recognize learning that cannot be tested, but that learning is some of the most important learning. And I will argue that universities will recognize it if you find a way to put it on a transcript. If I want to put my ds's D&D group on his transcript as a course in leadership, I can. We simply read up on leadership styles, have him implement different ones during the game each week where he is the DM, and then discuss ramifications afterwards and make decisions as to how to adjust moving forward. I can definitely imagine this course showing up in a progressive school. Most people on this board seem to think that to put work on a transcript, you need to do it silo-ed, cut into traditional courses, often taken with an external provider who dictates learning, timing, and grades. It doesn't have to be that way unless you or your dc wants it that way.  

So I tried to answer your earlier question. I interpreted it to be: "if you say you are doing less, are you cutting quantity or quality? Because there is no way you can do less unless you cut something." For us it is definitely quantity in hours. My ds does 20 hours per week, and doesn't plan to increase it junior or senior year. We can do fewer hours but still at a high level by doing project work, and because he is so engaged and working so hard, he is accomplishing so much more in less time than he ever did when we were doing standard courses. Is he accomplishing as much in 20 hours as an engaged student is in 40 hours? Of course not. But is he accomplishing as much in 20 hours that he used to do in 40 as non-engaged student? Absolutely. So I don't count hours, I count outcomes. As long as I can figure out how to slice and dice it into transcript pieces and add in non-seat time activities, he will have the required coursework.  This seems to be an unusual path on this board. All I seem to see for the past few years here is outside course this and silo-ed course that.  And in my experience with my older ds, outside courses were much less efficient and more stressful than a home grown course. I'm not saying 'don't stress' because stressing is the nature of homeschooling highschool. Gone are the days of read alouds and playing shop. But I am saying, that if your child is stressed and overworked and no longer enjoying learning, that there are other educational methods you can embrace. You don't have to keep doing what everyone else is doing to get into university.  

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

7 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

That is not new information. American schools' methodology has been stuck on the bottom of the cognitive learning pyramid for decades. ...

i used to get in debates on this forum all the time with people on this subject bc it is one I am pretty passionate about and the fundamental reason I homeschoool. Occasionally I will interject this info now and then, but it is completely counter to what most people believe and want to hear.

I think you have done a very good job keeping an important side of the argument going on this board for years.  Newbies need to hear that young kids  learn through play, and that a 7 year old does not need 5 hours of seat time. I think you also do a great job telling people about your homegrown highschool courses that are designed specifically for each of your kids' interests. But what I usually see is that people say "Wow, 8, you are amazing! But I could never do that, I'm just not as good a teacher as you!" And I'm thinking, well she did have to *learn* how to do it. And that took effort and a belief that homeschooling highschool did not have to look like traditional school. I just think you need to keep saying it, over and over.  I'm trying to, but don't do it nearly as well as you do.  🙂 

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I guess I'm left frustrated when I read threads like these.

On the one hand, people say, "Hey, chill out! Relax your schedule! It'll all be FINE!"

But then when people talk about the specifics of what that looks like, I find it's still unobtainable for many if not most students. A courseload that's more than full plus an average of nearly 30 hours of EC's is not a relaxed schedule. And I don't mean to pick on Merriweather at all. I have seen this on so many threads. Someone says that a subject is "too much" or that a schedule is "too stressful" and people say, hey, relax. And then they offer their vision of "relaxed" and it's often like, "Oh we're just reading Anna Karenina, War and Peace, and Don Quixote but we're hardly writing about them at all just like one research essay!" Or, "My kid needed a relaxed math path, so we're just doing AP stats!" Or, "We really cut back our hours with music and now he's only performing in one symphony so he has time for research chemistry!"

And I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume these aren't obnoxious humblebrags. Everyone's needs and reference points are going to be different.

For me, I feel like the best advice is to step off the path everyone else is following. I think when we try to compete with more credits, more AP/DE, and just generally try to look more like schools, that's when we're at a disadvantage - whether it's a "relaxed" schedule or not. And not having to worry about competing with a million public school kids who are on similar paths should make it feel more relaxed, even if it's not really.

My current 12th grader has 2 formal outside activities, choir and youth group. Other than that, she does her all at home/no AP schoolwork,  hangs out with family and friends, rock climbs, and writes her book. She is definitely not on any sort of high pressure path. She is definitely strolling toward adulthood, not charging.

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I think you have done a very good job keeping an important side of the argument going on this board for years.  Newbies need to hear that young kids  learn through play, and that a 7 year old does not need 5 hours of seat time. I think you also do a great job telling people about your homegrown highschool courses that are designed specifically for each of your kids' interests. But what I usually see is that people say "Wow, 8, you are amazing! But I could never do that, I'm just not as good a teacher as you!" And I'm thinking, well she did have to *learn* how to do it. And that took effort and a belief that homeschooling highschool did not have to look like traditional school. I just think you need to keep saying it, over and over.  I'm trying to, but don't do it nearly as well as you do.  🙂 

Thanks. I think they need as many voices saying it as are willing to take the time. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

 

Ah, sorry. I guess my enthusiasm for *finally* finding a path for my younger got me carried away.  I have fought him for years to up his workload, to move faster, to do more.  But it has been like pushing sh** up hill. Keep in mind, this boy has disgraphia, and still misspelled his name at age 12. Once I actually chose to look at what he was learning outside official schooling, I finally started to relax. Our educational system does not recognize learning that cannot be tested, but that learning is some of the most important learning. And I will argue that universities will recognize it if you find a way to put it on a transcript. If I want to put my ds's D&D group on his transcript as a course in leadership, I can. We simply read up on leadership styles, have him implement different ones during the game each week where he is the DM, and then discuss ramifications afterwards and make decisions as to how to adjust moving forward. I can definitely imagine this course showing up in a progressive school. Most people on this board seem to think that to put work on a transcript, you need to do it silo-ed, cut into traditional courses, often taken with an external provider who dictates learning, timing, and grades. It doesn't have to be that way unless you or your dc wants it that way.  

So I tried to answer your earlier question. I interpreted it to be: "if you say you are doing less, are you cutting quantity or quality? Because there is no way you can do less unless you cut something." For us it is definitely quantity in hours. My ds does 20 hours per week, and doesn't plan to increase it junior or senior year. We can do fewer hours but still at a high level by doing project work, and because he is so engaged and working so hard, he is accomplishing so much more in less time than he ever did when we were doing standard courses. Is he accomplishing as much in 20 hours as an engaged student is in 40 hours? Of course not. But is he accomplishing as much in 20 hours that he used to do in 40 as non-engaged student? Absolutely. So I don't count hours, I count outcomes. As long as I can figure out how to slice and dice it into transcript pieces and add in non-seat time activities, he will have the required coursework.  This seems to be an unusual path on this board. All I seem to see for the past few years here is outside course this and silo-ed course that.  And in my experience with my older ds, outside courses were much less efficient and more stressful than a home grown course. I'm not saying 'don't stress' because stressing is the nature of homeschooling highschool. Gone are the days of read alouds and playing shop. But I am saying, that if your child is stressed and overworked and no longer enjoying learning, that there are other educational methods you can embrace. You don't have to keep doing what everyone else is doing to get into university.  

My remark wasn't so much directed toward you or Merriweather or anyone in particular. It's just a trend I see. And I'm probably guilty of it to in some ways. I'm aware that sometimes my kids are doing a lot by some measures. Just like how Merriweather is like, my kid couldn't be like this other kid I know... I'm aware that my kids couldn't hack it in the ways that some kids here do. But they're also doing some things that are intensive. BalletBoy's dance is intensive. Mushroom has some projects that, especially if they pan out, will be very impressive and fulfilling. They're each doing some neat things for school. If I wanted to come here and frame our lives as my own humblebrag, I could totally do that.

The bolded is really key to me. People like to act like you can do it all. But I have found it is just not true. You have to make choices. I agree with what you're saying, absolutely - if you can motivate a kid, then you can cut time sometimes. But then when people (and again, not you per se... I really do think we're all doing it to some extent) put that out here, I feel like there's a sense of hubris sometimes - a sort of, we managed to find a way to be more relaxed and do just as much high level work! And it's like, but maybe that's not totally replicable for all families and students. Like, having been in the classroom with a lot of students, I would not say it's common, even with motivation in a small class with a ton of attention or tutoring situation to be able to literally double a student's output and learning rate. It's definitely not possible for my kids. Sometimes they slow down when they're motivated because they're weird like that. And there are always going to be some boxes they have to check to be able to even have the opportunity to apply to college that will never motivate them (except in the "I am content to do this because I see how it fulfills my larger goals" way).

And, to be clear, I'm 100% on board with the end of your advice. I say that stuff too. Like, I completely am there. And we strive to live that too and to not have overworked kids and schedules (and, hey, this particular week did not happen to fit that what with activism and a birthday and Nutcracker auditions and a massive anxiety attack by one person all happening in one week... and that's definitely coloring things a bit for me at this exact moment) and we are not doing many of the traditional things to compete (no DE and a single AP class that was requested by one kid) and we are doing a ton of homegrown studies, including lots that are geared to my specific kids. But it's also not a magic formula. So that's what frustrates me. It's very disheartening for folks to hear that the "we relaxed it and refused to play the overworked game!" schedule/lineup that other people have is something that would be massively too much for the kid that is already overwhelmed by a lower level of work.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Farrar

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

My remark wasn't so much directed toward you or Merriweather or anyone in particular.

 

Oh, I just saw the War and Peace comment, and thought "oh no, not again."  There is just no way I can use my older boy's experience to help anyone I think because he is just that unusual.  It is just that I only have 1 kid that I have gone through the hell of applying and having to cut his learning into little pieces that admissions can understand. So I use him as an example, and really just shouldn't. If you want to know what he did NOT do, he did not write a single paper in all of 9th and 10th grade.  He just refused.  So that saved time.  🙂  What he did do was something that mattered to him - he wrote math proofs.  100s of them.  So 2-4 one-page fully organized, typed, clearly written and punctuated math proofs every week. And by the end of 2 years, he could write english papers.  Writing math proofs is apparently a completely transferable skill to literary analysis. Go figure. So how then do you count this for a transcript?  He continued to read, but didn't write, but then after 2 years, he could write as if he had spent those 2 years doing English papers. Can you count it for English?  He didn't do the work, but yet he did. He learned how to *write* - thesis driven, structured, arguments with support -- all of it.  Just not in a traditional manner.  The key to his learning  was *engagement* -- that is the magic formula. 

Quote

But it's also not a magic formula. So that's what frustrates me. It's very disheartening for folks to hear that the "we relaxed it and refused to play the overworked game!"

So again my magic formula is engagement. Seems to me that kids that are not engaged are just going through the motions, getting the grades, forgetting everything they learned, and not developing any critical thinking skills.  I have seen this issue with my younger this school year (southern hemisphere haha).  We spent 50 hours on the mechanics unit for physics, we worked hard, he did tough content, learned it, took difficult tests, did well.  And at the end of term when we were having a debrief he told me "Well, I don't really know what force or momentum or energy is.  I don't really understand mechanics at all. "  😲 I was like how is this possible?!?! You have done 100 pages in the workbook, you have used the formula, you have written halfway decent paragraph answers.  What the hell did we do wrong?!?!? So we brainstormed, and it seems to be about-the-workbook thing, and the do-3-pages-a-day thing, and the here-is-the-content-you-must-learn thing, and do-what-you-are-told thing. But, um, hello, we are doing physics, and there is like SET CONTENT.  But why go through the motions and do the set content if your kid hates it even though he wants to learn about physics, and learns nothing even though he did all the work?  So we made a U turn.  We decided to do the Wave/Optics unit as a discovery unit.  Now, let me tell you, that I HATE discovery.  It is so inefficient.  Just give me the content, I will learn it, and I will like it.  But my ds apparently has to discover to make learning real.  So, we got the equipment, and the videos, and watched waves and light and mirrors, and just discovered cool stuff for 3 weeks.  Bunny trails led him where ever he wanted to go. Then after this initial 3 weeks, I got him a list of all the content he had to learn for the unit, so that he would learn what was the SET CONTENT, but he still did it in a discovery way - but now discovering in a more organized manner.  At this point, I'm thinking, well we have wasted 3 weeks.  But now, he is able to research on line, and read complex content, and link all the proper ideas to stuff he has figured out on his own.  Now he has questions, now he is motivated to figure out why he was wrong in some of his ideas, now he can link theory to his experiments.  He powers through the set content in 3 weeks because he had the background to have it both make sense and be interesting.  Plus, now he is not forgetting the content.  He just has to *own* it.  He can't just follow some book and do the assignment and tick the box.  He may get through less material with this method, I'm not sure yet, but then we are talking depth instead of breadth, and that is not a bad thing.

So that was a big ramble, but I think you are wondering about how to reduce stress but still get the learning and tick the boxes, and for both of my boys it is about doing what they LOVE, rather than what someone tells them they must do to move forward in life.

Edited September 29, 2019 by lewelma

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, lewelma said:

 

Oh, I just saw the War and Peace comment, and thought "oh no, not again."  There is just no way I can use my older boy's experience to help anyone I think because he is just that unusual.  It is just that I only have 1 kid that I have gone through the hell of applying and having to cut his learning into little pieces that admissions can understand. So I use him as an example, and really just shouldn't. If you want to know what he did NOT do, he did not write a single paper in all of 9th and 10th grade.  He just refused.  So that saved time.  🙂  What he did do was something that mattered to him - he wrote math proofs.  100s of them.  So 2-4 one-page fully organized, typed, clearly written and punctuated math proofs every week. And by the end of 2 years, he could write english papers.  Writing math proofs is apparently a completely transferable skill to literary analysis.  So how then do you count this for a transcript?  He continued to read, but didn't write, but then after 2 years, he could write as if he had spent those 2 years doing English papers. Can you count it for English?  He didn't do the work, but yet he did. He learned how to *write* - thesis driven, structured, appropriate examples, argument -- all of it.  Just not in a traditional manner.  The key to me is *engagement* -- that is the magic formula.

 

 

So again my magic formula is engagement. Seems to me that kids that are not engaged are just going through the motions, getting the grades, forgetting everything they learned, and not developing any critical thinking skills.  I have seen this issue with my younger this school year (southern hemisphere haha).  We spent 50 hours on the mechanics unit for physics, we worked hard, he did tough content, learned it, took difficult tests, did well.  And at the end of term when we were having a debrief he told me "Well, I don't really know what force or momentum or energy is.  I don't really understand mechanics at all. "  😲 I was like how is this possible?!?! You have done 100 pages in the workbook, you have used the formula, you have written halfway decent paragraph answers.  What the hell did we do wrong?!?!? So we brainstormed, and it seems to be about the workbook, and the do 3 pages a day thing, and the here is the content you must learn thing, and do what you are told thing. But, um, hello, we are doing physics, and there is like SET CONTENT.  But why go through the motions and do the set content if your kid hates it even though he wants to learn the content, and learns nothing even though he did all the work.  So we made a U turn.  We decided to do the Wave/Optics unit as a discovery unit.  Now, let me tell you, that I HATE discovery.  It is so inefficient.  Just give me the content, I will learn it, and I will like it.  But my ds apparently has to discover to make learning real.  So, we got the equipment, and the videos, and watched waves and light and mirrors, and just discovered cool stuff for 3 weeks.  Bunny trails led him where ever he wanted to go, Then after this initial 3 weeks, I got him a list of all the content he had to learn for the unit, so that he would learn what was the SET CONTENT.  At this point, I'm thinking, well we have wasted 3 weeks.  But now, he is able to research on line, and link all the proper ideas to stuff he has figured out on his own.  Now he has questions, now he is motivated to figure out why he was wrong in some of his ideas, now he can link theory to his experiments.  He powers through the set content in 3 weeks because he had the background to have it both make sense and be interesting.  Plus, now he is not forgetting it.  He just has to *own* it.  He can't just follow some book and do the assignment and tick the box.  He may get through less material I'm not sure, but then we are talking depth instead of breadth, and that is not a bad thing.

So that was a big ramble, but I think you are wondering about how to reduce stress, and for both of my boys it is about doing what the LOVE, rather than what someone tells them they must do to move forward in life.

I didn't realize your kid had read War and Peace? I must have missed that. It was just my jokey example. But as a kid I read Anna Karenina one year and adored it and the kids in my class did Les Miserables as well for that assignment. So I was also poking fun at my high school self a bit too. I don't actually think any of those things are wild to read in high school. But I do think they're all things that are dense and meaty and not blowing it off. Which is fine! But then sometimes people are like, we need a quick, light English course and people are like, try this set of dense classics my kid thought it was a breeze.

We may be talking at ends a bit. I'm with you on all this. I agree. And I endeavor to do those things. And while they can be a struggle in the moment, I actually think we mostly do okay with it and are doing it for some things. Honestly, we killed at this all through middle school. Like, I don't really need you to walk me through what that looks like. I definitely get that part. But I think this advice has limits that aren't acknowledged in these sorts of discussions commonly. So that's what I'm saying is frustrating.

It would be awesome if I could afford to get my dancer through French in a "discovery" way. It would be really cool if I had the cash to send him to study at the Paris Opera for a semester (or even the SI, which, btw, is like the cost of an American full summer SI for just a week). And we've done discovery math many, many times. And I still pull out manipulatives and white boards and real world problems. But he has to make it through Algebra II and my kids *slow down* when they're engaged. I can tell you right now, if he did Algebra II discovery style, he'd be finishing the first half of the content maybe three years from now. And that would be lovely in some perfect world, I guess. But it's not what he wants. And it would not fit his goals or a timely entrance into college.

I also think - and while you didn't say this exactly - a lot of the time this advice goes along with the whole use their interests as a "way in" sort of advice. And I have a lot of experience with that. And from it, I can tell you that my kids loathe having their interests ever be part of school. It was with massive hesitation that Mushroom and I decided to do a world drama class for his English course this year. Massive because when school and interests collide, they usually both explode for this kid and he ends up hating both. 

I'm just saying... I can also give these sorts of "engagement was magic!" stories and I totally believe in them and, again, have made them happen at various points. But there are places that it runs up against the edges.