The swimsuit drama...

[frogger]

16 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

I actually know the judge. Local homeschool mom and educated as an engineer. Very fair-minded and not prone to drama. I have not discussed the incident in question with her but knowing her, I have to think there's more to the story than what has been in the media. I also know people who know the swimmer and have heard that side of it.  In the end, it's probably good to have the swimsuit question examined and maybe this will result in improved, more comfortable options for all. Let's hope.

 

There is a lot more being said locally than this narrow one sided narrative. I wasn't going to jump into the fray because we aren't swimmers and unlike typical internet juries I'd like to hear to whole story. My opinion is if you don't want to enforce a rule you get rid of it so things like this don't happen. Don't have a rule and tell people it's wrong to enforce it. That makes for sketchy circumstances.

 

Side question though:

 

Mystery Jen, why can't a school order more than one suit? I ask this as a parent of a daughter who couldn't find pants or a shirt at a regular store for my daughter. She literally didn't own a pair of pants from age 9 to 13. She wore men's sport shorts around the house and dresses and skirts anywhere she had to look halfway presentable. In America, a bigger size just means you gained around the middle. We went to speciality shops and scoured the internet (thankfully we had nation wide internet shopping avaialable to us)  but it still took 8 years to find a pair of pants. She refuses to wear leggings. 

It was my understanding from local commenters that supposedly swam locally that you could choose from different designs on a website that dealt with schools and the order would be placed for your team colors from the school but that Diamond High School recently decided to do the one suit thing. As a parent, I would have a problem with my daughter being required to wear what essentially becomes a thong, without her consent. That's different than a child going out a choosing a thong for themselves.  It sounds like this is a common problem according to other posters who are more involved in swimming.

For those who may not understand our school district is only 44% Caucasian.  My daughter is Caucasian but also has an 11" difference between waist and hips and thighs that do rival Simone Biles in inches at least.   It makes buying clothing difficult but the idea that a school would force a child to wear something like that or give up their sport and be labeled a prude for complaining also seems very unfair as does a DQ. It seems to me that a school  should have to provide options at least. I realize they can't handmake a student's suit if there is nothing out there but I would love to see the safe sport rules be able to be followed. A wedgie is no big deal compared to a complete thong.  Right now I'm just so thankful my daughter likes outdoor sports!

[MysteryJen]

Our high school swim team is run on a shoe string. All extra money goes to renting lanes (no pools in any of the district schools). Although we live in an affluent area, the demographic of our high school is a mix between rich and poor. Keeping the costs of sports down is a priority for the administration. Every girl needs to buy a suit, so they pick one and get a group discount. All caps are the same- no money for State caps. The girls share parkas and there are bags loaned out for those who don't have them. Competition suits are shared as well- and only for people who are close to making times or going to state.

My girl is the only club swimmer on the team. We have donated used competition suits, gear, etc. The coachs like to stay with the same brand and model of suit so girls don't have to buy a new one. This suit does not fit anyone well. 

This is in comparison to the other high schools in the area where 50% or more of the swimmers are club swimmers and the high schools skew significantly wealthier.

[frogger]

So they are required to purchase their own suit with their own money and still can't purchase one that fits. That is harsh. I understand money is money though.

Our school district (the one in the controversy) owns all major public pools in the area so lane rental would not be an issue for us. Sure there are hotel and club pools but not of size or capability of holding meets. But Diamond demographics are pretty mixed so I can see discounts being an issue.

[GoodGrief]

2 hours ago, frogger said:

 

There is a lot more being said locally than this narrow one sided narrative. I wasn't going to jump into the fray because we aren't swimmers and unlike typical internet juries I'd like to hear to whole story. My opinion is if you don't want to enforce a rule you get rid of it so things like this don't happen. Don't have a rule and tell people it's wrong to enforce it. That makes for sketchy circumstances.

 

The situation has reinforced for me why I am burned out on volunteering for situations where I am tasked with enforcing rules, and especially where other people's kids are involved.

This woman is being trashed by name in the media for enforcing a rule she did not make, and apparently other judges ignored. Sounds like it was a regulation that was not thoughtfully written. This woman is absolutely not a racist or anti-woman. She is a humble, hard-working person who contributes to the community in numerous ways.  I could see this happening to me, honestly. The internet mobs are heavy on my mind this week, and I hope we don't lose her service because of this incident.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 

The situation has reinforced for me why I am burned out on volunteering for situations where I am tasked with enforcing rules, and especially where other people's kids are involved.

This woman is being trashed by name in the media for enforcing a rule she did not make, and apparently other judges ignored. Sounds like it was a regulation that was not thoughtfully written. This woman is absolutely not a racist or anti-woman. She is a humble, hard-working person who contributes to the community in numerous ways.  I could see this happening to me, honestly. The internet mobs are heavy on my mind this week, and I hope we don't lose her service because of this incident.

They didn’t ignore it. They simply didn’t share her interpretation of it and neither did the state athletic association. Are refs not paid in Alaska high school sports?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[frogger]

16 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They didn’t ignore it. They simply didn’t share her interpretation of it and neither did the state athletic association. Are refs not paid in Alaska high school sports?

 

That is one of the few questions I can actually answer.  No, they are volunteers who donate time to make sure the meets can actually happen. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, frogger said:

 

That is one of the few questions I can actually answer.  No, they are volunteers who donate time to make sure the meets can actually happen. 

Ah. Here they are paid.

[frogger]

Actually, let me clarify, for swimming they are volunteers. Each sport works differently and of course it depends on if it's community league, school, club league etc.

In this instance, we are talking about volunteers.

 

We are also talking about boards who want to make regulations (it would seem to me) that please everyone rather than rules that protect competitors and volunteers. I know little about swimming but having run organizations, I understand the importance of rules and making them doable, fair, avoiding litigation, and that they will never please everyone. Instead of those in authority figuring things out, it sounds to me like they put a volunteer in an impossible situation and made her a scapegoat. Consequently, this also failed the competitor. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by frogger

[Sneezyone]

39 minutes ago, frogger said:

Actually, let me clarify, for swimming they are volunteers. Each sport works differently and of course it depends on if it's community league, school, club league etc.

In this instance, we are talking about volunteers.

 

We are also talking about boards who want to make regulations (it would seem to me) that please everyone rather than rules that protect competitors and volunteers. I know little about swimming but having run organizations, I understand the importance of rules and making them doable, fair, avoiding litigation, and that they will never please everyone. Instead of those in authority figuring things out, it sounds to me like they put a volunteer in an impossible situation and made her a scapegoat. 

 

I agree that the rule could have been better explained but no one has yet explained why these two girls were the only two singled out by this one official over two years. The district superintendent’s presser was really compelling in that she made it clear that she spoke to several people and found a ‘pattern’ of biased scrutiny directed at the DQd student and her sister. What explains that? If the official had questions about the rule and it’s applicability, isn’t that something she should’ve addressed with the governing body before penalizing athletes?

The district supe also said the school previously allowed girls to choose their own suits so long as they met the rules for modesty, color and logos, but after last years run in with this ref, chose the same approved suit for all of their female swimmers in hopes of preventing another incident. Above in the thread, people recommended more suit variety but it seems that didn’t help last year.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

4 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Now I’m wondering who the judge is and if I know her 🤔

She released a statement identifying herself.

[frogger]

19 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I agree that the rule could have been better explained but no one has yet explained why these two girls were the only two singled out by this one official over two years.

 

Like I said, I can't since I'm not part of the swimming community. It would need explained but it does make me wonder about racist statements. She obviously dealt with lots of different races in a majority-minority district, although I suppose swimming may attract varying amounts of minorities.  That I would leave for local investigation and decisions. I can only comment on using rules to protect everyone involved. 

[MysteryJen]

My dd2 reminded me of an incident abou 5 years ago here. At the state championships, a girl was Dqd for her suit. The coach protested that it was not a USA swimming rule and that she was targeted for winning the event in a practice suit.  The dq was overturned.

The high school rule was explained last year as "no butt cheek touching butt cheek" which of course is entirely based on a swimmer's anatomy and the sort of suit they are required to wear. As dd2 put it "I guess white skinny girls will never be called for that."

The whole rule needs to be tossed out because who needs adults policing teen girls like that. You can require they cover up on the pool deck if you really don't like it. But not a dq for racing.

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Like I said, I can't since I'm not part of the swimming community. It would need explained but it does make me wonder about racist statements. She obviously dealt with lots of different races in a majority-minority district, although I suppose swimming may attract varying amounts of minorities.  That I would leave for local investigation and decisions. I can only comment on using rules to protect everyone involved. 

 

I didn’t see racist statements mentioned in any reports, just that the district called it ‘biased’ enforcement. All kinds of biases can impact our judgements tho, including our perception of what ‘normal’ wear/fit looks like.

[frogger]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I didn’t see racist statements mentioned in any reports, just that the district called it ‘biased’ enforcement. All kinds of biases can impact our judgements tho, including our perception of what ‘normal’ wear/fit looks like.

 

I'm probably seeing too many internet comments etc.  

[historically accurate]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Huh, I haven’t been able to find anything.  Will keep poking.  We did our swimming primarily at East and not Dimond, but I know a lot of the hillside, berry patch, and Kincaid peeps (not to mention my ER/Chugiak folks).

https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Swimming-official-releases-statement-following-Dimond-High-swimsuit-controversy-560247321.html

 

[GoodGrief]

30 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I didn’t see racist statements mentioned in any reports, just that the district called it ‘biased’ enforcement. All kinds of biases can impact our judgements tho, including our perception of what ‘normal’ wear/fit looks like.

 Many opinion pieces on the topic assuming racist motives. I assume this is based on the race of the swimmer and her sister. Locally the parent of the swimmers has made that accusation, as well.

I don't know how you defend yourself from something like this where people all over the world assume motive based on their personal biases. She will never be free of the unfounded, in my knowledge of this person, accusations. Truly unfortunate for someone who was offering service to the community.

[frogger]

5 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

 

 

. N/M

Edited September 14, 2019 by frogger

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Well, by definition the ruling is about how a swim suit fits. It would make sense that if the suit fit them worse then other swimmers they would look targeted if the official was simply following the rules. Some spectators say it looked as though she didn't actually have anything at all on below the waist. Perhaps they were exaggerating? The coach chose suits that actually made things worse not better. Makes me wonder if she had a personal vendetta, knew the ref would play by the book, and took away the choice of the girls to choose their own suits. I don't know but there is a lot of strange side notes but since I can't do anything about it I should mind my own business. 

If I had my say though, they would just get rid of the rule. 

 

You're making the point of those who were initially outraged. Curvier girls will never fit in standardized, 'approved' clothing the same way flat girls will. If it wasn't OK when the girls were wearing their own suits, and it's not OK when they're wearing standardized ones, then the issue isn't the suits but the girls...a fundamentally untenable position to maintain. They deserve to be able to compete like anyone else. That's the very point the district Superintendent articulated so well.

It bears repeating, not even all of the refs agreed with the initial DQ and none of the other refs at any other meet this season said a word. I get wanting to believe that everyone has great intentions. Maybe this ref did but it's also possible to have the best motives and still get things wrong.

The coach chose suits that were approved for competition by the governing body after suits the athletes chose themselves were ALSO questioned...by the same ref, no others? How is that in any way indicative of a vendetta on the COACH'S part? I am very confused by this line of thinking. What is this strange side note/subtext? What am I missing?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 Many opinion pieces on the topic assuming racist motives. I assume this is based on the race of the swimmer and her sister. Locally the parent of the swimmers has made that accusation, as well.

I don't know how you defend yourself from something like this where people all over the world assume motive based on their personal biases. She will never be free of the unfounded, in my knowledge of this person, accusations. Truly unfortunate for someone who was offering service to the community.

 

I haven't been reading opinion pieces, just news articles and public statements. I don't subscribe to the notion that the only way racism can be identified is through overt acts of name-calling and noose-hanging tho. I think using whiteness to center 'norms' in form/feature/manner, etc. is also a form of racism. None of us is free of that.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[frogger]

 

Choosing a suit that looks non existent below the waist sounds pretty extreme. Maybe all the suits would look like that but it's strange that after having a problem with specific body fit you would go to "Everyone must have one exact suit." as the solution that you knew would fail.

Look if the rule is bad, change it for everyone's sake. A judge in our state recently was thrown off the bench for following a law no one liked. I disagreed with the guy getting away with it. Everyone hated that the perp got away with it but Judges can't make up laws they just follow them. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by frogger

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, frogger said:

Well, you don't know that. I don't know that. It sounds like some of the refs were just scared to call it but they won't go on record.

 

Choosing a suit that looks non existent below the waist sounds pretty extreme. Maybe all the suits would look like that but it's strange that after having a problem with specific body fit you would go to "Everyone must have one exact suit." as the solution that you knew would fail.

Look if the rule is bad, change it for everyone's sake. A judge in our state recently was thrown off the bench for following a law no one liked. I disagreed with the guy getting away with it. Everyone hated that the perp got away with it but Judges can't make up laws they just follow them. 

 

 

I haven’t read anything that says there was fear on the part of the other refs. Is that in some opinion pieces or blogs or something? The only other quote for attribution was from the ref who left, Rhode? And it wasn’t as you say above. She said she disagreed. Nonexistent below the waist? Seriously, that’s what you’re going with? Aside from a thong, which this suit wasn’t, I’ve never seen a one piece swimsuit that doesn’t extend below the waist. Have you? Why would a coach assume that choosing one suit for all would fail if it was an approved suit?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[frogger]

No, that was spectator's comments. When you choose something too high cut and narrow, it can disappear down the crack so to speak.

 

That is why I was asking MysteryJen why girl's couldn't choose their own suits. I have a curvy girl myself who would be mortified at having to wear something like that. Now you say it wasn't because of money as she mentioned (which I could understand though it made me sad) but as an answer this coach had to this ref. The whole thing is goofy.

 

And it is NOT the girls fault.  I cannot understand why they went to the one suit as a solution to suits not fitting all body types. I'm sorry but that sounds backwards to me.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, frogger said:

No, that was spectator's comments. When you choose something too high cut and narrow, it can disappear down the crack so to speak.

 

That is why I was asking MysteryJen why girl's couldn't choose their own suits. I have a curvy girl myself who would be mortified at having to wear something like that. Now you say it wasn't because of money as she mentioned (which I could understand though it made me sad) but as an answer this coach had to this ref. The whole thing is goofy.

 

And it is NOT the girls fault.  I cannot understand why they went to the one suit as a solution to suits not fitting all body types. I'm sorry but that sounds backwards to me.

 

Yeah, at this point, I’m not sure we can assume any of the spectators is a neutral arbiter given what happened with at least two parents, presumably spectators, who exchanged photos of the girl’s backside last year.

[frogger]

I concur. Although, in this thread and in other circumstances this particular type of occurance (becoming thong like) has been brought up.

 

Ugh... Maybe since this went national they will change the rule and maybe the girls (on this team at least) will be able to just choose their own suits.

Edited September 13, 2019 by frogger
Clarification in parentheses

[LucyStoner]

Anyone who needs to be told that it’s not ok to take pictures of a teenage girl’s rear end should be bounced from the venue and ALL further meets.  Like have some common decency and sense.  Those parents from last year deserve consequences for their actions.

I feel like a lot of this would be solved if people just didn’t look too closely at things they say they don’t want to see.  

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by LucyStoner

[EmseB]

I swam competitively for over 10 years and have had my DC on a couple different swim teams the past couple years and I have to say all this is baffling to me. The idea that there are competition suits that would ride up *that* much, even on a curvy girl, when properly fitted/sized is baffling. I know there are high-cut suits, I've just never seen any cut so high they cause anything more than a wedgie if there's a malfunction. To have them ride up so high they create a thong where butt cheeks are touching? Long enough for someone to notice? It seems like improper sizing and something you'd want fixed asap because how do you swim, say, a breaststroke race with that going on? Then idea that girls are hiking their suits up on purpose? Again with the discomfort but also...I guess that seems just weird for the swim culture I'm familiar with. I keep reading trying to figure this out and I can't square any of it in my puny brain.

[MysteryJen]

A wedgie on some girls looks like a thong. 

I have seen different sizes on my A cup girl with a muscular rear end. The choice has been riding up or water pooling and flashing her chest. 

We picked the wedgie.

And yes, when she bends down to take a start, the suit moves. One size or one size up- not that many choices. 

Let the athlete choose. And the rest of us can assume that everyone has done their best to comply with antiquated modesty rules.

 

 

[frogger]

2 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

A wedgie on some girls looks like a thong. 

I have seen different sizes on my A cup girl with a muscular rear end. The choice has been riding up or water pooling and flashing her chest. 

We picked the wedgie.

And yes, when she bends down to take a start, the suit moves. One size or one size up- not that many choices. 

Let the athlete choose. And the rest of us can assume that everyone has done their best to comply with antiquated modesty rules.

 

 

 

So you are saying no matter which suit the coach chose it would be a similar result.

 

For now I will eat my words leaving up that I was wrong and delete my post so new people don't read it. 

 

(Nevermind. It's all quoted anyway)

 

I know how difficult it can be to find clothes but in a limited special niche, I can imagine it being impossible. 

 

It is frustrating that there isn't more choices. It's not like strong glutes and almost no fat should be that crazy unusual in a swimmer when you are talking nationwide population. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by frogger
Parenthesis

[rebcoola]

I hate this its not the girls fault if they are wearing the team swimsuit.  We only do summer swim which doesn't have a required swim suit. Older DD chooses a rashguard and shorts so she doesn't burn Younger DD chose a biketard/tech suit rip off.   We have this issue at the gym the coaches choose the suit and the fit and the gymnast lives with the consequences.  Than their is always the stuff about cracking down on it which means what staring at little girls to see who has the most revealing leo?  When the girls are training they almost all choose to wear shorts so why not in comp.  

Edited September 14, 2019 by rebcoola