I had a revelation today

[Terabith]

So, Cat is taking algebra 1 as an 8th grader at the middle school.  I was talking to my older daughter's precalculus teacher, and he was like, "Yeah, there's no honors geometry at the high school.  They assume all the honors kids will have taken it as sixth or seventh graders at the middle school."  

Our public high school has two tracks:  there is the honors/ AP track, where kids are taking 4-5 AP classes their junior and senior years (super high pressure, high output, but the kids are well behaved) and the regular track, where it is a behavioral free for all.  Kids talk, yell, scream at the teachers, cuss them out, throw things around the classrooms, engage in fistfights.  Very little learning takes place in the regular classes.  The teachers have basically given up, and even if the kids WANT to learn, it's hard to learn when your peers are acting like this.  I've insisted that Cat take honors classes, even in subjects she's terrible at, because of the behavior issues.  She agrees.  She doesn't tolerate people acting like that well.  And it's BAD.  Like, Anna had a few electives that weren't honors classes (dance, Spanish) and we're looking at having to start her on anxiety meds because the stress of being around that kind of behavior is messing with her head.  It's REALLY bad, objectively bad.  The math teacher I talked to was like, "Honestly, if I were you, I wouldn't send her to this school.  I would move and send her to a different high school.  She's not going to be able to handle four years of that kind of classes."  But....our public high school is the only one that offers ASL.  It's the only one with a culinary program that leads to certification.  It's the only one with a top notch choir and other fine arts opportunities.  

So I was like, "Crap."  Because if she takes regular geometry, she won't be prepared for the honors algebra 2.  The fact is, she's awful at math.  She has no business being in honors classes for math.  But, four years of regular level math would simply be intolerable behaviorally.  

But then I had a revelation.  If we don't make her do the advanced, college prep diploma, she doesn't have to take four years of math, four years of social studies, all that jazz.  She could get off the crazy train.  She doesn't have to do 4-5 AP classes a year, which would CRUSH her.  If she just does the regular diploma, if she can grin and bear it and just get through regular geometry and algebra 2, she could be DONE WITH MATH.  I think that she wouldn't have to take math her jr or sr years.  I THINK she might not have to take history every year.  And then she'd have more room for electives.  She could still take AP English, AP science, maybe some AP history classes.  

It would probably mean she wouldn't be able to go directly away to college.  But, she probably wasn't going to do that anyway.  If she does college at all, she's likely to start at the community college.  

Also, she volunteered to leave study hall and be a library assistant during a free period at the middle school.  She LOVES it.  She checks books out.  She shelves books.  She helps kids find books.  She is really, REALLY good at it, apparently.  I have been worried about her being able to hold a job, but apparently she's one of their best library assistants they've ever had.  I mean, we're only a couple weeks into the school year, but she talks to kids who have to check out books but hate reading and helps match them with books.  And they were EXCITED about the books she found for them.  I think she really will be able to handle a job.  Maybe a job as a librarian, even!

[Lecka]

This sounds good 🙂

[kbutton]

That's very cool, and library science is a pretty broad field. I think that some people work as librarians with other degrees as well or even sometimes without one. My aunt took some courses to work in a library but had no degree (though that was not recent and was in a tiny town). 

As an aside, do you think she'd do better in geometry than algebra? My son has a huge split in affinity for one over the other. He is taking Algebra 2 right after Algebra 1 so that he doesn't forget stuff. Once in while, we dip our toe into geometry to see how it might go, and he's flying (so far). Maybe you will have a pleasant surprise with geometry.

I don't think more room in the schedule is bad--I am not a fan of the trend to cut study halls for "productive" classes (except as wanted electives) and expecting more credits to graduate. I loved study hall. I finished my work and did a lot of informal tutoring in study hall (which significantly boosted my understanding of the material as I tutored). I am a person that needs a lot of margin, and study hall gave it to me. If volunteering in the library for her study hall is so meaningful, I hope she gets that opportunity to explore all she's interested in with the extra time!

[Terabith]

Honestly, I have no idea how she will do in upper level math.  My husband routinely failed every math class up until algebra.  His fourth grade teacher said, “Please promise me you will never be an engineer.”  He majored in math in college and is a physicist.  So far, Cat says algebra makes loads more sense than any other math and it’s just logical.  She always scores 99.9th percentile on visual spatial stuff.  I could see her doing extremely well in high school math, except by not doing algebra as a seventh grader, she’s tracked into the classes where no learning occurs.  So even if she rocks them and wants to do well, I don’t see any way for her to succeed.  Not in a class with fist fights, crap being thrown, cussing, and screaming.

[kbutton]

15 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, I have no idea how she will do in upper level math.  My husband routinely failed every math class up until algebra.  His fourth grade teacher said, “Please promise me you will never be an engineer.”  He majored in math in college and is a physicist.  So far, Cat says algebra makes loads more sense than any other math and it’s just logical.  She always scores 99.9th percentile on visual spatial stuff.  I could see her doing extremely well in high school math, except by not doing algebra as a seventh grader, she’s tracked into the classes where no learning occurs.  So even if she rocks them and wants to do well, I don’t see any way for her to succeed.  Not in a class with fist fights, crap being thrown, cussing, and screaming.

That's awesome about your DH's degree, lol! When you said that she is awful at math, I thought you held out no hope of it getting better in addition to the problem with the tracking.

It's a shame that they have created such a divide with the tracking. Not all capable students are ready so early, and not all capable students want to take the hardest class they can in every subject for years and years. 

[Storygirl]

I feel sad about the lack of opportunities for her to take appropriate classes at her high school. Instead of following the honors AP track, could she maybe do dual enrollment classes for junior and senior year? I know it's not the right choice for everyone (we chose for DD17 not to do it, even though she could have).

Assuming the 8th grade algebra class will appear on her transcript, then your daughter would still have three years of high school math. However, some colleges may frown on students avoiding math in their final years of high school. Even if you don't think she will follow a traditional four-year college path, it may be good to keep options open. The algebra will probably be tagged as an 8th grade class on the transcript. DS15 was bumped up to algebra for 8th grade this year, and in our discussion about it with the principal, he mentioned that our school expects students to take math during their junior and senior years, despite having three credits by then, and he wanted us to be aware.

It's worth talking to your school guidance counselor about!

I am so happy she is loving working at the school library. I was a librarian myself (though I didn't get an MLS), so I always love hearing about young people who love the library.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, I have no idea how she will do in upper level math.  My husband routinely failed every math class up until algebra.  His fourth grade teacher said, “Please promise me you will never be an engineer.”  He majored in math in college and is a physicist.

Well make sure she gets to take physics, lol.

[Terabith]

If she wants to. She’s rather obsessed with biology.  After Dungeons and Dragons, it’s her biggest interest and has been since she was like two.  Besides Honors Bio, they offer AP Bio, Human Anatomy, Ecology, AP Environmental Science, AP Psychology.  (And Physics and other sciences.)

I could easily see her with an unbalanced schedule of lots and lots of science, choir, art, and cooking classes.  

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

I could easily see her with an unbalanced schedule of lots and lots of science, choir, art, and cooking classes.

You may have to fight for them not to limit her. The ps I attended wanted to limit kids to one foreign language, which was ridiculous. I left and went to a school where I could take three, lol. Might be something to ask about now, before the issue comes up. They also didn't want to let you take more than one math at a time, even if they weren't a problem together, like geometry and algebra 2.

[ktgrok]

Can she do partial enrollment at the high school, and do math and science at home and then take choir and culinary classes or whatever there?

[Lecka]

I think this sometimes — but maybe the kids are not “that” bad, but it is still a stressful environment to your daughter.  I think that can happen a lot.  And then it’s like — it may not be as bad as it would seem like, but they are sensitive to every detail in a way that some kids are not going to be as sensitive about.  

And then who knows — maybe your younger daughter will have an easier time.

Edit:  I have had it kind-of both ways, with kids either being stressed by what is not stressful to others, or not being stressed and knowing that other parents have a child who has a serious issue with an environment and my child is really fine with it.  

I have also seen stuff where “just messing around” to one of my kids might be “extremely upsetting” to another kid.  And vice versa.  

I know it could be objectively really bad, too, but it might work out better for a sibling.  

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Lecka

[Storygirl]

Lecka, I understand that. I was super sensitive in school to misbehavior in classes and the lunchroom at school. And for some of my friends sitting right next to me.... it didn't bother them at all. To them, it was just normal, but to me it was awful.

I am hypersensitive in general. I didn't realize this about myself back then.

[Terabith]

My oldest kid is pretty sensitive.  Even the honors classes are loud and chaotic enough that she gets stressed.  They’re pretty bad.  I’ve been in there myself.  Other teachers have said we should move to another district.  

[ElizabethB]

I would just do math at home at her pace and send in 2 transcripts if you do end up doing college, her high school one and a homeschool one with math.  My daughter is good with spacial abilities and did better in Geometry than Algebra, math is her worst subject.  We're doing broad math review this year to be prepared for college level math.

[Terabith]

25 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

I would just do math at home at her pace and send in 2 transcripts if you do end up doing college, her high school one and a homeschool one with math.  My daughter is good with spacial abilities and did better in Geometry than Algebra, math is her worst subject.  We're doing broad math review this year to be prepared for college level math.

That would be ideal.  Unfortunately, we have an absolutely wonderful relationship as long as I do absolutely nothing with academics with her.  I can read books to her, and we can watch documentaries, and we can talk about anything, academic included.  But if I sit down and try to do math with her, we essentially have no parent-child relationship.  It just, flat out, does not work.  I burned all my bridges teaching her to read.  It was hard and brutal and I'm still not sure it wasn't abusive in the effects it had on her, no matter how fun and rewarding and short I kept our sessions.  But, she learned to read, and she's read well above grade level ever since she broke the code.  And every single expert who has evaluated her has said that she probably would never have learned to read in school.  So I don't really regret it.  If I had to fight one academic battle, I decided it was going to be getting her literate.  And I did.  But I simply cannot be her teacher anymore.  I can only help her with homework if she asks me and it's very very short.  

In practice, she's going to have to take geometry and algebra 2 at the high school.  There's no way around it, and she will just have to make the best of it.  Some parents have said their kids have been able to block out the horrible kids and have survived it, so she might be able to.  And worst case scenario, if we're going to do math past what's required for high school graduation, might just do it at the community college through dual enrollment.  That is a legitimate possibility.  

[ktgrok]

Does your state have a virtual option for math?

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Does your state have a virtual option for math?

Unfortunately not.

[moonflower]

Are you sure she needs honors Geo to do Honors Alg 2?  Was/is algebra really hard for her?

[Terabith]

Well, we're only a couple weeks into algebra 1.  It' possible she might be able to get into pre-AP algebra 2 without honors geometry.  That's not the standard schedule though.  We'll see.