Is anyone familiar with the Davis Method?

[Runningmom80]

https://www.dyslexia.com/davis-difference/davis-programs/

 

Like all good, neurotic mothers in 2019, I joined a plethora of groups for dyslexia and dysgraphia on FB after DD did her testing. The groups have been mostly useless but someone started a discussion on “surface” dyslexia. Dd’s Tester mentioned that DD presents like this so I started paying attention. Someone recommended Dyslexia the Gift book and the Davis method. I had never heard of either. I did a forum search here, but nothing came up. I’m curious what you experienced and knowledgeable ladies think of it. I haven’t looked too closely so I’ll save my initial reaction for later. For the record I’m not really considering this since we seem to have DD set up for the near future. I’m just curious, and always open to learning more.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Lecka]

Years ago at this point, I have checked out the book The Gift of Dyslexia or skimmed it in Barnes and Noble or something.  I have seen and looked through the book.

My memory of it was that a random person wrote a book, it wasn’t like it was a teacher or speech therapist or someone who had years of experience or anything like that.  

I didn’t look into it any more than that.  

 

[Lecka]

At the same time — I bet you could find the book used or at the library if you wanted to check it out!  

[Runningmom80]

Thanks! I wasn’t really planning on reading the book, I was Just curious about it since no one here talks about it. 

 

 

[PeterPan]

We don't talk about it because most people get offended when you say your real problem is you're afraid of the words and just need to overcome your fear.   There's more to it than that, but that's a component, yes. Might have seemed fine at the time, but we know more now, mercy. 

I think it's strong on visualization as a form of learning. Beyond that, totally ymmv.

[Runningmom80]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

We don't talk about it because most people get offended when you say your real problem is you're afraid of the words and just need to overcome your fear.   There's more to it than that, but that's a component, yes. Might have seemed fine at the time, but we know more now, mercy. 

I think it's strong on visualization as a form of learning. Beyond that, totally ymmv.

 

What the.....

[geodob]

The Gift of Dyslexia was published back in 1994, when Dyslexia was virtually unheard of.  In an age, when 'Learning Disabilities' were defined as 'Mental Retardation'.
This book, presented a different view.  That  Dyslexia provides some areas of 'Giftedness'.
It gained more popularity, with the emergence of the internet and development of forums discussing Dyslexia.

Though the shame, was that about 10 years ago. Some 'Corporation' saw the popularity of the book, as a way to make some money?   It developed an unproven method for 'assessing and remediating Dyslexia'. Using the book to support marketing of the 'method'.   A lot of people were disturbed, when Ron Davis sold out to this corporation.
But the book is still worth reading.

[freesia]

My grandfather was diagnosed with dyslexia in the 20’s, my uncle in the 50’s, brother and cousins in the 79’s and 80’’s.  I taught in the 90’s and at no point in there was dyslexia or learning disabilities seen as mental retardation.  My grandfather and uncle had to travel to special schools, but everyone else received support through the school or locally.

[Lecka]

That’s a great story with your family, but it is one of those things where people have different experiences.  My FIL was beaten in school and dropped out in the 8th grade.  I think it must have varied a lot by region.  

[Runningmom80]

1 hour ago, geodob said:

The Gift of Dyslexia was published back in 1994, when Dyslexia was virtually unheard of.  In an age, when 'Learning Disabilities' were defined as 'Mental Retardation'.
This book, presented a different view.  That  Dyslexia provides some areas of 'Giftedness'.
It gained more popularity, with the emergence of the internet and development of forums discussing Dyslexia.

Though the shame, was that about 10 years ago. Some 'Corporation' saw the popularity of the book, as a way to make some money?   It developed an unproven method for 'assessing and remediating Dyslexia'. Using the book to support marketing of the 'method'.   A lot of people were disturbed, when Ron Davis sold out to this corporation.
But the book is still worth reading.

 

Thanks! The method is what I was originally side eyeing. Perhaps I’ll look for the book.

[PeterPan]

Try your library system. 

[Kanin]

Hasn't the "Davis method" been thoroughly debunked? 

[PeterPan]

http://tpb.psy.ohio-state.edu/5681/notes/dsm/01.htm  Perhaps this explains what geodob is referring to? This says the DSM1 clumped everything into 3 classes of psychopathology

-organic brain syndromes=eg. epilepsy

-functional disorders=eg. depression, schizophrenia

-mental deficiency=retardation

 

[PeterPan]

Just now, Mainer said:

Hasn't the "Davis method" been thoroughly debunked? 

Well in an overall sense, yes, lol. You'll still find practitioners, and I think to the extent someone finds it useful it's because he was onto something with the value of visualization. 

[Kanin]

16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well in an overall sense, yes, lol. You'll still find practitioners, and I think to the extent someone finds it useful it's because he was onto something with the value of visualization. 

Just checking 🙂 I'm on board with visualization!

[PeterPan]

Just now, Mainer said:

Just checking 🙂 I'm on board with visualization!

Well that's the thing! The guy kinda comes across like a nut in his book, and the methodologies sound like voodoo and have a reputation for deterring people from seeking appropriate intervention. But he actually had a kernel there that was good, maybe even more kernels now that I think about it. I mean, think about how much time and work our local dyslexia school puts into EMOTIONAL REGULATION.

So I think it's good to put him into context but not toss good kernels he was onto. I mean, our library system has like 12 copies of the book and makes it available digitally, so people must still be reading it. By comparison, the Tinker and Tanker books I'm reading to my ds today, which are AWESOME btw, have *2* copies per book. Go figure.

[Pen]

One of the books I read on dyslexia had a synopsis explaining in brief a bunch of programs that then existed. Davis was one.  It didn’t seem like it would fit my child, but whatever will help a particular child is good for that child.

I also thought Davis was related to Sequential Spelling perhaps 

[Runningmom80]

I apologize for bringing up things that have probably been rehashed a bunch of times, the search function has been lacking for me since the board switched over. 

Like I said, I was curious. Plus it seemed really different than any of the other programs mentioned. I've started looking into SWI for spelling, since my daughter is presenting like a "surface" dyslexic, or orthographic dyslexic, and that's leading me on a whole other weird rabbit trail. I had no idea there were "conflicting" methods. I'm a dabbler anyways so I'll probably use a bunch of things to figure out what combo works, but when I saw the Davis method I was left scratching my head. I think I will request the book from the library, just to see what the deal is since I'm a research junkie. I also just got Proust and the Squid which details the brain rewiring humans must do to even learn to read. 

 

[Pen]

25 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

I apologize for bringing up things that have probably been rehashed a bunch of times, the search function has been lacking for me since the board switched over. 

Like I said, I was curious. Plus it seemed really different than any of the other programs mentioned. I've started looking into SWI for spelling, since my daughter is presenting like a "surface" dyslexic, or orthographic dyslexic, and that's leading me on a whole other weird rabbit trail. I had no idea there were "conflicting" methods. I'm a dabbler anyways so I'll probably use a bunch of things to figure out what combo works, but when I saw the Davis method I was left scratching my head. I think I will request the book from the library, just to see what the deal is since I'm a research junkie. I also just got Proust and the Squid which details the brain rewiring humans must do to even learn to read. 

 

 

Things get rehashed over and over all the time.  Don’t worry about it.  It can even help someone potentially to become aware of something they missed before.  Or a new person with useful info will see it and contribute.  

[Kanin]

42 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

I also just got Proust and the Squid which details the brain rewiring humans must do to even learn to read. 

I read that one, and it was okay, like a history of how reading came about. It didn't give any useful information about what to actually DO, at least I didn't think so. I LOVED Language at the Speed of Sight, though. There was a lot more actual research in there. Again, not so many action items, but I could see how his research and summaries of research connect (or don't!) with how people are currently teaching reading.

I LOVE this book!  https://www.amazon.com/Language-Speed-Sight-Read-About-ebook/dp/B01MY56N82/ref=pd_sim_351_7?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01MY56N82&pd_rd_r=76880ff7-6f61-11e9-a9d7-63c732323a12&pd_rd_w=tp6Mh&pd_rd_wg=kxxeM&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=SHFHNHE07HHGW3B6SRZA&psc=1&refRID=SHFHNHE07HHGW3B6SRZA

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

the search function has been lacking for me since the board switched over.

Do you know how to google site search? You use your google search bar for your browser and you type on your terms plus site:welltrained.com 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

I've started looking into SWI for spelling

Oh you dreadful eclectic woman you...  No seriously, the "not just OG" camp for reading intervention is pointing out that there's a need to transition as you hit morphology and as you are working with older kids. And I think some of these newer programs that are coming out are more in that vein of how could we bring what's *good* of SWI into intervention. So you're not crazy, just need help to get there. 

I think another way to think through this stuff is how it will help organize the brain of the student or organize in the student's brain. As long as your data shows it's working, you're good. But I wouldn't feel the need to just go out there and free wheel, because on the question of merging SWI and intervention there's already stuff available, yes. There's https://www.wvced.com and SPELL-Links, etc.

[Crimson Wife]

7 hours ago, Mainer said:

Hasn't the "Davis method" been thoroughly debunked? 

Yes, but the book has a few useful ideas mixed in with all the nonsense. There is a section on teaching abstract meaning words that is good. Ron Davis says to use clay or play-dough  to make a model to illustrate the meaning of the word. It's on pages 244-254 in my book.

[Kanin]

26 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

Ron Davis says to use clay or play-dough  to make a model to illustrate the meaning of the word

This does sound cool, although not dyslexia-specific... it would be good for any kid who has trouble with understanding abstract words. Some of my students are working on understanding conjunctions like although, while, since, etc. and it's a beast! I should try the clay thing. 

[Heathermomster]

It’s been about 11 years since I read that book. Reading Davis’s educational story made me very sad because he was mistreated by educators.  DS formed play dough letters and tried the “minds eye” exercises, and it was all a bust.  

When I read the author’s story, I felt like he had a visual processing issue, not a phonological processing issue.   It used to irritate my son when people would ask him if he saw letters jumping or backwards and upside down.   The title of the Davis book even irritated him, and he asked me once why the author had reversed the F on the cover.  DS reversed d’s and b’s, not the letter f.

OP, if you suspected a vision issue, maybe take him to COVD vision therapist (VT).  Otherwise, stick with scientifically tested and proven reading methods for dyslexia, which is a program that provides systematic, explicit, and phonics based multi-sensory instruction.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Heathermomster

[Runningmom80]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Do you know how to google site search? You use your google search bar for your browser and you type on your terms plus site:welltrained.com 

 

Yeah, I haven’t figured out how to search by board though. I really like searching on specific boards. I could probably just tack on “learning challenges”

[Runningmom80]

5 hours ago, Mainer said:

I read that one, and it was okay, like a history of how reading came about. It didn't give any useful information about what to actually DO, at least I didn't think so. I LOVED Language at the Speed of Sight, though. There was a lot more actual research in there. Again, not so many action items, but I could see how his research and summaries of research connect (or don't!) with how people are currently teaching reading.

I LOVE this book!  https://www.amazon.com/Language-Speed-Sight-Read-About-ebook/dp/B01MY56N82/ref=pd_sim_351_7?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01MY56N82&pd_rd_r=76880ff7-6f61-11e9-a9d7-63c732323a12&pd_rd_w=tp6Mh&pd_rd_wg=kxxeM&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=SHFHNHE07HHGW3B6SRZA&psc=1&refRID=SHFHNHE07HHGW3B6SRZA

 

 

Cool! I will request that one too.

I wasn’t thinking Proust and the Squid would be anything actionable, just interesting. 

[Runningmom80]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh you dreadful eclectic woman you...  No seriously, the "not just OG" camp for reading intervention is pointing out that there's a need to transition as you hit morphology and as you are working with older kids. And I think some of these newer programs that are coming out are more in that vein of how could we bring what's *good* of SWI into intervention. So you're not crazy, just need help to get there. 

I think another way to think through this stuff is how it will help organize the brain of the student or organize in the student's brain. As long as your data shows it's working, you're good. But I wouldn't feel the need to just go out there and free wheel, because on the question of merging SWI and intervention there's already stuff available, yes. There's https://www.wvced.com and SPELL-Links, etc.

 

I was looking at SPELL links and I’m intrigued. I do think she’s going to need SWI for spelling. She’s *too* phonetic when she spells. 

I don’t want to go straight SWI, because I see that she must have some phonological holes from her testing. I just wonder if OG is going to be enough to get her spelling more on track. I guess I’ll see! I’m not feeling like I need to start SWI right away. I’m going to see how far she gets this summer with the tutor and go from there. 

 

Eta: I’m also looking at Apples & Pears

Edited May 6, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Runningmom80]

2 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

It’s been about 11 years since I read that book. Reading Davis’s educational story made me very sad because he was mistreated by educators.  DS formed play dough letters and tried the “minds eye” exercises, and it was all a bust.  

When I read the author’s story, I felt like he had a visual processing issue, not a phonological processing issue.   It used to irritate my son when people would ask him if he saw letters jumping or backwards and upside down.   The title of the Davis book even irritated him, and he asked me once why the author had reversed the F on the cover.  DS reversed d’s and b’s, not the letter f.

OP, if you suspected a vision issue, maybe take him to COVD vision therapist (VT).  Otherwise, stick with scientifically tested and proven reading methods for dyslexia, which is a program that provides systematic, explicit, and phonics based multi-sensory instruction.

 

I’m not sure that I suspect a vision issue, but she has already done VT. I wasn’t necessarily looking into this method, just wondering everyone’s thoughts on it. 🙂

[Lecka]

What is SWI?

[Runningmom80]

16 minutes ago, Lecka said:

What is SWI?

 

Structured Word Inquiry

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Yeah, I haven’t figured out how to search by board though. I really like searching on specific boards. I could probably just tack on “learning challenges”

You might be able to put in "lc" or learning challenges and tighten it, yes. You could also add a username. So like a really hopping Friday night for me is reading everything LoriD ever posted for 3rd grade math, something exciting like that. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

I’m going to see how far she gets this summer with the tutor and go from there. 

The tutor will probably have advice for you on picking up where she leaves off. And you might find she does that kind of transition with clients too. It's considered age and developmentally appropriate to do some kind of SWI or word study or morphology and transition like that, so she'll probably have some shift at some point, whatever she calls it. You're just coming up to speed to be ready. 

So what happened with the course. Did you end up signing up?

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

When I read the author’s story, I felt like he had a visual processing issue, not a phonological processing issue.   It used to irritate my son when people would ask him if he saw letters jumping or backwards and upside down.   The title of the Davis book even irritated him, and he asked me once why the author had reversed the F on the cover.  DS reversed d’s and b’s, not the letter f.

Fwiw I think it reflects more significant midline and OT type issues too. Ds reversed EVERYTHING. In fact he could be like upside down, mirror, all kinds of things. Lego models, anything was that way. It did settle down, but for a few years there it was pretty crazy. I don't remember if we did anything that helped it. 

[Runningmom80]

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The tutor will probably have advice for you on picking up where she leaves off. And you might find she does that kind of transition with clients too. It's considered age and developmentally appropriate to do some kind of SWI or word study or morphology and transition like that, so she'll probably have some shift at some point, whatever she calls it. You're just coming up to speed to be ready. 

So what happened with the course. Did you end up signing up?

 

The Wilson? Yes! I ended up signing up for one in a June a little closer to me through IDA. It’s still wilson intro, and it was cheaper! #winning

[mamashark]

I just had a conversation with someone who swears by the Davis Method for her son who is about to graduate high school - but he's not exactly a reading success story. So she said that "hands on shoulders" helped him focus on words and helped them stop moving around the page, and that he was finally able to connect sounds to letters when he made them with clay. 

But he's still unable to read or write beyond probably what is required to survive/fill out an application. He's also very mechanical and words with his hands. He's currently collecting broken lawnmowers from around town and fixing them.

[PeterPan]

56 minutes ago, mamashark said:

helped them stop moving around the page,

What's sad is that's a vision problem, not the dyslexia. So a method could be fine but when it's keeping people from getting care they need, that's sad. 

[mamashark]

14 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What's sad is that's a vision problem, not the dyslexia. So a method could be fine but when it's keeping people from getting care they need, that's sad. 

yes. And my dyslexic kid doesn't have that issue. I had one with that issue and we did vision therapy and it helped her tremendously, but it was unrelated to her ability to read. 

[PeterPan]

Sounds like your friend also didn't get OG, sigh. But it's so great when we can read a book from the 80s and decide to "trust" that and just not look at anything else, sigh.

[Heathermomster]

Was it published in the 80s?  I threw my copy away rather than donate.

The local Scottish Rite tester recommended the Davis book after testing DS.  I haven’t looked recently, but dyslexia websites used to recommend it as well.

[PeterPan]

Yeah, pretty old at this point.