Reefgazer Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 On 6/6/2019 at 5:34 PM, maize said: Do those of you who believe that perpetrators of violent crimes should have no mercy and can never be considered reformed also believe that people who kill under the direction of military commanders are similarly irrevocably tainted? I don't think all murderers should be lifers and most should be eligible for parole at some time; not people like this, however. I do not think those under military command are murderers; I have solid reasons for thinking this way but do not have the time for a long draw-out debate that is unlikely to sway opinions about the matter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) I don't know. I'm a huge believer in justice reform. I think prison should be available to protect the general population from threats, but I think we don't do enough to assess when a person is a threat and what other options are available to create a safe population and reduce prison needs to begin with. I honestly don't see freed prisoners as being in a better situation than prison. They will almost never get a real job because nobody will hire them and the state often has a bill for their prison stay, which unpaid, will land them back in. It's a catch-22. Even if paroled, she will probably end up back there so it's a moot point. I don't think there is a right answer in this situation without a careful study and reform of what we expect in a justice system. Edited June 8, 2019 by HomeAgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Reefgazer said: I do not think those under military command are murderers Murder is commonly defined as unlawful, premeditated killing. Killing in a military context is most often premeditated; the primary thing setting it apart from murder is that war killing is usually considered lawful--at least, on the side of the people committing any particular killing act, and especially if the side of the person who kills happens to come out victor in the conflict. Lawful and moral however are different questions to consider, with morality rarely being as black and white as lawfulness. Edited June 8, 2019 by maize 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Reefgazer said: I am truly not trying to be argumentative, but I do not think anyone who is capable if such torture and wanton cruelty can change that part of their person. I feel that is a flat-out defect in their humanity and they should never again see freedom. It doesn't matter how bad a childhood was, whether drugs were involved, or what types of problems a person has; what killers like this do is beyond human. Yeah, I honestly do not know. If a person is that broken, can they truly ever be whole? I don't know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 8 hours ago, Reefgazer said: I am truly not trying to be argumentative, but I do not think anyone who is capable if such torture and wanton cruelty can change that part of their person. I feel that is a flat-out defect in their humanity and they should never again see freedom. It doesn't matter how bad a childhood was, whether drugs were involved, or what types of problems a person has; what killers like this do is beyond human. I agree. And I also believe that the vast, vast majority of people who had terrible childhoods, used drugs, and had all sorts of problems in their lives would still never, ever be willing or able to murder another person, let alone do it in such a hands-on and gruesome way. There is simply no possible excuse for having participated in that kind of brutal slaughter. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 15 hours ago, Reefgazer said: I am truly not trying to be argumentative, but I do not think anyone who is capable if such torture and wanton cruelty can change that part of their person. I feel that is a flat-out defect in their humanity and they should never again see freedom. It doesn't matter how bad a childhood was, whether drugs were involved, or what types of problems a person has; what killers like this do is beyond human. I agree to a large extent. I also think that punishment actually is a legitimate reason for someone to be in prison, certainly a murderer. Regarding the Anne Perry case, she of course did go on to become a successful author after her quite short prison term, but many think that she never truly expressed remorse or accepted responsibility for the crime (and I am mostly in that camp, although I have not read the new biography yet). In interviews, she has blamed the other girl, said she saw no possible way out of doing it (maybe don't show up?), quite a lot of 'it wasn't really my fault' stuff in my opinion. And this quote completely shocked me: "It never occurred to me that 40 years on, something that had been dealt with and paid for, that anybody would care anymore. It's like somebody rushing in with the news that Queen Anne is dead. For Pete's sake, is there anybody who didn't know? I really didn't think it would surface again so long afterward. And it if did, it would be, you know, so what?" So what? An utter lack of awareness that taking the life of a human being does indeed matter even 40 years later. I think AP came out of prison reformed in the sense that she was very unlikely to commit a crime again, but she was either not very remorseful or she is a writer who is very, very bad at expressing her personal thoughts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 On 6/8/2019 at 9:31 AM, Reefgazer said: I am truly not trying to be argumentative, but I do not think anyone who is capable if such torture and wanton cruelty can change that part of their person. I feel that is a flat-out defect in their humanity and they should never again see freedom. It doesn't matter how bad a childhood was, whether drugs were involved, or what types of problems a person has; what killers like this do is beyond human. I agree that people who do something like this almost always have something broken in them that cannot actually be fixed. But does that mean that they will kill again? I don't think so. I think particularly in this case there were influences pushing Leslie to be the absolute worst version of herself. With those influences gone, and many, many years in prison to reflect and change, I would be shocked if she participated in violent crime again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 On 6/8/2019 at 11:35 AM, J-rap said: Yeah, I honestly do not know. If a person is that broken, can they truly ever be whole? I don't know. Yes, this is what Imeant - I do not think they are re-habilitatable. I know that's not an actual word... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 7 hours ago, MercyA said: I agree that people who do something like this almost always have something broken in them that cannot actually be fixed. But does that mean that they will kill again? I don't think so. I think particularly in this case there were influences pushing Leslie to be the absolute worst version of herself. With those influences gone, and many, many years in prison to reflect and change, I would be shocked if she participated in violent crime again. I do believe that an appropriate use of prison is reform, rehabilitation, and punishment. Sometimes, just outright punishment and nothing else, and that is acceptable for something this horrendous. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 14 hours ago, MercyA said: I agree that people who do something like this almost always have something broken in them that cannot actually be fixed. But does that mean that they will kill again? I don't think so. I think particularly in this case there were influences pushing Leslie to be the absolute worst version of herself. With those influences gone, and many, many years in prison to reflect and change, I would be shocked if she participated in violent crime again. I agree. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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