Seriously reluctant writer

[EverLearningMom]

Hello! I am new here and I could use some advice on helping my very reluctant writer. He's only seven, and yes, I'm sure this is not unusual for seven year old boys. Whenever he has to sit down and write, whether it be one sentence, four sentences, or really, a word, it is a nightmare. It's either running away from the table, flat out refusal, tears, or most commonly, chatting, silliness, daydreaming, needing a drink, go to the bathroom, some kind of pain or ailment, basically anything he can come up with to avoid putting pencil to paper. He always drags the process out at least 10 times the amount of time that seems reasonable. To be honest, I'm on the verge of tears whenever he has to write anything too, because our day, I know, will come to a screeching halt.

His handwriting is not perfect but it's decent. I don't think there is any kind of disability. In fact he's very good with handwork. He says its just too boring to sit for a long time and write. From time to time I will let him type. One time I totally let him off the hook and dictate a story to me while I typed and his story turned out really fantastic. (He has an incredible vocabulary and imagination and I didn't want the physical act of writing to hold him back from his story.) So I'm just wondering if anyone has any suggestions. Would a handwriting program possibly be helpful, like Handwriting without Tears? I don't know if becoming more proficient in the art of handwriting would make him more confident? Or should I jump to cursive writing? Could that help? Or should I jump headlong into the 21st century and just let him type, because honestly, isn't that really what it's all about anymore? Or is this just a seven year old boy thing that he has to grow out of?

[Tanaqui]

Just to be clear, you're certain this is a problem with the physical act of writing and not composition? He does this when asked to copy things as well, yes?

How is his pencil grip? Can you take a picture? Just off the top of my head (and remembering my own childhood), I can picture a poor grip being the root of any number of writing issues. And even without a disability, a poor grip can become a habit. Fix it, and the problems go away.

Other than that - there's no harm jumping right to cursive, and there's probably no harm in jumping right to typing for most subjects while you work on penmanship separately. It depends on what your goals are.

[fralala]

What are your expectations for him re: writing?

Sentences? A sentence? A word? Are you having him do copywork, or write creatively, or respond to a prompt?

Keeping in mind that many of us don't do any creative writing (that we don't transcribe for our kids as you did) or writing prompts or formal writing beyond very brief copywork at age 7, do your expectations seem reasonable?

If yes, then I'd address your expectations for him when he comes to the table for writing. If your intent is that he work on his focus, or concentration, or compliance, or respect, or whatever, that is a separate issue from the act of writing, and the best advice I can give you for that is hiding in the pantry and consuming large amounts of chocolate-- no, I mean, scaffolding. If these skills are the ones holding you up, sometimes a little self-care (not a new curriculum) is the answer.

An aside: Sometimes the best storytellers are the ones who have the hardest time coming to the table, I think. Their ability to imagine and enact preferable alternatives is just a little too good!

[EverLearningMom]

Thank you both for responding. I'll give you a better sense of expectations and our usual process. We use Oak Meadow, and at this stage, the majority of writing assignments is to summarize a story we read in 2-4 sentences. He will give me his summary verbally and I will write it down for him, usually having to condense it significantly because he's a big talker! I don't think I've ever gone beyond three sentences because I need to protect my own sanity. I then give him the paper with the sentences written down and he transcribes it into his lesson book. very. very. slowly. and with as much procrastination and emotional manipulation as any human being has ever mustered. He likes it when I sit there and spell out every single word while he transcribes. I don't like it, obviously, but I'll do it if gets him writing. Even then, his pencil manages to fall on the floor at least 17 times. I will post a picture of his pencil grip. I don't think it's bad, but I'm definitely no expert. To be honest, I don't have the best grip so it's possible his grip is worse than I realize! 

Yes, working on his focus is definitely something I'm just starting to realize we need to do. He's a smart kid and I think he managed to skate through the first two years without much focus needed, but now as things are ramping up a bit, his usual method of half paying attention and half everything else isn't really working. But even last year, one sentence assignments were no easier.

Chocolate supply - check!

And just curious, how does the writing assignment example line up with what others are doing? Does that reasonable for a 7.5 year old? He is at the beginning of second grade.

[Tanaqui]

Two or three sentences is not that unreasonable for this age group, especially as he is copying it, as you said. But maybe he doesn't like doing the assignment "twice"? He does it once, orally, and doesn't see the point of copying it down?

[mamaraby]

Why does he need to transcribe it in his lesson book? He dictates his words to you while you write it in his lesson book is absolutely appropriate for his age/stage. Bravewriter would call this the “Jot it Down” stage (http://blog.bravewriter.com/2014/09/03/if-your-child-is-in-the-jot-it-down-stage/). As for length of copywork, even SWB’s WWE2 at the beginning has one sentence for copywork and at most a couple of sentences through out the book.

I think this is mostly an issue of readjusting your expectations. It’s probably a combination of not seeing the point of writing it down after you already wrote it down plus his enthusiastic writer’s voice being hampered by the limitations of mechanics (how you spell it, how you form the letters, getting it right, etc). He has an enthusiastic writer’s voice, why not encourage that? You be his scribe while the mechanics catch up. You won’t have to do it forever. 7 years old really is so young. There is plenty of time for his skills to develop so that he can and will write all by himself.

[EverLearningMom]

mamraby - I could hug you! Thank you. I know that I have an issue with wanting everything in writing somehow (and I struggle with my "by the book" ways with his curriculum), and that's exactly what he just can't deal with right now. I get frustrated sometimes because I feel like I'm slowing down his entire academics just because of writing. It really is a matter of mechanics right now. If there is any way this kid is gifted, it's storytelling and communicating ideas. Just don't ask him to put it in writing! But seriously, I was so happy for him but also kind of sad when he finished dictating his story to me because it was so good, but then I also realized that whenever he actually has to put pencil to paper, it's no where near his ability. It truly is the "Jot it Down" stage. And it probably doesn't help that he's doing the assignments, essentially, twice. It's true.

Alright, tomorrow is a new day and I'm starting with a new approach! 

[mamaraby]

Just now, EverLearningMom said:

mamraby - I could hug you! Thank you. I know that I have an issue with wanting everything in writing somehow (and I struggle with my "by the book" ways with his curriculum), and that's exactly what he just can't deal with right now. I get frustrated sometimes because I feel like I'm slowing down his entire academics just because of writing. It really is a matter of mechanics right now. If there is any way this kid is gifted, it's storytelling and communicating ideas. Just don't ask him to put it in writing! But seriously, I was so happy for him but also kind of sad when he finished dictating his story to me because it was so good, but then I also realized that whenever he actually has to put pencil to paper, it's no where near his ability. It truly is the "Jot it Down" stage. And it probably doesn't help that he's doing the assignments, essentially, twice. It's true.

Alright, tomorrow is a new day and I'm starting with a new approach! 

I’m glad I could help. :D

Just remember the “but why?” question next time you start to worry. You writing it down for him doesn’t make those words any less his own. It doesn’t make the process anything less than writing just because he physically didn’t take a pencil and write it down. I wouldn’t call your son a reluctant writer, fwiw, and I wouldn’t want to hold him back or make put a damper on his writer’s voice. That’s a thing to nourish.

Standard disclaimer - It’s probably not a limitation or a issue that needs remediation/instruction beyond what is standard for kids that age. Still teach handwriting and correct pencil grip. Still teach spelling. Still offer short copywork passages. A handful of words, no more at first and work your way up to longer passages. Bravewriter even for the older kids suggests starting out short. Best hand writing. Copy the words exactly. If he balks, take one really well written word and call it a day. There’s always the risk of diminishing returns here.

Work your way through all of this, building on skills as the school year progresses. Consider the mechanical part of writing separate from content. If it’s an issue of content, you write what he tells you to write just the way he says it. My second grader does not like it if I make suggestions or do anything other than write her words down verbatim. She is very particular about this. Maybe your kids is too, so just keep that in mind. ;) 

If you notice the mechanical part isn’t improving over time or other concerns pop up that make you wonder if there are further issues, then maybe it’s time to seek out evaluation.  I have a sample size of three, only one of which was a boy, but your son sounds like my kids are/were.  Heck, sometimes I still act as secretary/typist for my 13 yo if it means the content of his writing benefits. I don’t do it often, but sometimes when we’re talking a writing piece out, it helps if I write it down so it doesn’t get lost in his hormone addled brain.

And again, your son’s 7. He’s still so, so young. Keep it fun. Keep learning enjoyable. That’s why you homeschool, after all.

[Susan in TX]

5 hours ago, EverLearningMom said:

Thank you both for responding. I'll give you a better sense of expectations and our usual process. We use Oak Meadow, and at this stage, the majority of writing assignments is to summarize a story we read in 2-4 sentences. He will give me his summary verbally and I will write it down for him, usually having to condense it significantly because he's a big talker! I don't think I've ever gone beyond three sentences because I need to protect my own sanity. I then give him the paper with the sentences written down and he transcribes it into his lesson book. very. very. slowly. and with as much procrastination and emotional manipulation as any human being has ever mustered. He likes it when I sit there and spell out every single word while he transcribes. I don't like it, obviously, but I'll do it if gets him writing. Even then, his pencil manages to fall on the floor at least 17 times. I will post a picture of his pencil grip. I don't think it's bad, but I'm definitely no expert. To be honest, I don't have the best grip so it's possible his grip is worse than I realize! 

Yes, working on his focus is definitely something I'm just starting to realize we need to do. He's a smart kid and I think he managed to skate through the first two years without much focus needed, but now as things are ramping up a bit, his usual method of half paying attention and half everything else isn't really working. But even last year, one sentence assignments were no easier.

Chocolate supply - check!

And just curious, how does the writing assignment example line up with what others are doing? Does that reasonable for a 7.5 year old? He is at the beginning of second grade.

 

I think it is certainly an unreasonable expectation for some 7.5 year olds, especially boys. My 6.5 year old boy is just learning to write letters. One line of practice is all I require. I also think it is unreasonable to expect kids to copy text that they cannot read. ( I don't know if this is the case for your son.)  One thing you can try is simply shorten the amount you require him to copy. Just have him copy one sentence. 

Personally, I like to separate teaching composition from teaching penmanship. I use  Pentime workbooks for teaching penmanship, which I start in first grade. I don't teach composition at all until 4th grade at the earliest.

Susan in TX

[PeterPan]

You should continue to scribe so long as there is a dramatic discrepancy between oral and written. Don't allow the single letter, letter by latter copywork. Encourage him to chunk it as words or syllables. Meanwhile play games to build his working memory. 

He sounds very bright and possibly ADHD. My dd was that way and she's now a stellar writer. Typing is extremely important so keep working on it. You're going to have to juggle and keep the balance. When he hits junior high and dies everything by tech you'll wonder why you held him back over it. More tech, more scribing, keep progressing. Does he doodle? Have him draw every day and turn the radio on. You want to build his ability to use his skills with distractions. 

Meds aren't the end of the world btw. You might want to do some Zones of Regulation and work on that behavior. He needs better ways to ask for breaks and to use language to problem solve. You need to work together so YOU recognize his signs of needing a break. Then you teach him and transfer it over to him... Zones would be FABULOUS for him.

[Tanaqui]

ADHD is also a possibility.... Of course, EverLearningMom, take all advice with a small grain of salt! We tend to think of the things that affected us or our kids, and that doesn't necessarily mean that our offhand insights are correct. (Or incorrect.)

[Bronze]

I'd start teaching cursive and typing, and cut back on the amount of writing required for now.

I would also incentivize speed--maybe require just one sentence if that sentence is adequately completed within whatever timeframe you consider reasonable; if it takes longer he gets to do an additional sentence.

Or offer a reward for quick completion.

Or whatever might work for your particular child.

[MerryAtHope]

At that age, I had my kids write orally. I scribed, and then I let them draw or paint a picture on the page. This can make for some nice keepsakes (do some stories or journals once a week and have them bound at the end of the school year, or send them to grandparents for fun.)

Work on his handwriting and stamina separately from writing. Have him start with whatever he's capable of doing with a good attitude--one sentence or even one word--and gradually work up from there. It doesn't have to relate to his story or writing assignment at all. 

[Farrar]

Another vote that while many 7 yos are ready to copy three sentences, some aren't. And while he *can* be made to do it, I think you have to look at the long term questions here. What's the point of pushing him beyond what he's ready to really do? And what is it doing to his enjoyment of writing?

That doesn't mean don't ever work on the physical act of writing. But they really don't have to come together at this stage yet for some kids.

[Heathermomster]

Does your son have trouble with any other seatwork besides writing?  

[Targhee]

My kids could not have done that at 7 without much resistance or tears or dawdling.  That is one reason we didn’t follow WTM exactly - it didn’t allow for my kids’ individual strengths and weaknesses and different ways of learning and processing information.

if he can summarize a lesson I think you’re in a great place for age 7! Have him build up writing stamina in a separate task so he isn’t bored after having done the lesson and dictated a summary (that’s already doing it twice).  Let him draw in the lesson book (that builds writing muscles!).  I would continue to scribe for him for another year or two until he’s ready to take ownership.

[Lucy the Valiant]

Helpful (I hope?) anecdote: I scribed for a similar boy for YEARS - he is now in middle school and actually loves writing. 

 

The scribing felt "wrong" to me - cheating, somehow - but how thankful I am to have trusted those who told me to keep it up! He actually now voluntarily composes serious poetry (which I actually still scribe for him), easily completes 4-5 paragraph hand-written papers (and then types them), and is learning to take notes. Divorcing the process of handwriting from the process of composition was FREEING for him - he appreciated it then (I explained as we went along), and now "trusts" me to help him edit & revise. 

 

 

[RootAnn]

I had a really reluctant writer (composition and the physical act itself) followed by a gifted writer (composition and handwriting) and an average writer (some ups and downs with both). My boys are reluctant handwriters but like to come up with stories in their heads and they want to be able to level their drawings and write notes to people. So, I have all kinds.

I will echo that you should continue handwriting separate from composition (maybe set a minimum number of words like 5 and a timer for 15 minutes). Also, work on spelling separately.

I start typing practice in the summers once my kids are reading fluently (which in my house ranges from 6-10). But, I still require things to be written by hand because they will probably want to take notes by hand at some point.