Public school and dd - social issues

[SparklyUnicorn]

What I find confusing is we tell people we want them to follow the rules.  Then if someone ACTUALLY does we tell them they aren't cool and are doing it wrong.

 

This is a stupid world.

 

But look, OP, I'd point out to my kid that this makes no sense, but it is what it is and they'd do better to let a lot of stuff roll off.  Lots of us weirdos have survived school under these circumstances.

 

If she has friends, it sounds like she is doing great.  I'm sure every kid has some sort of issue here or there.  No situation is great all the time.

 

 

[Storygirl]

forty-two, I'm not going to quote your posts, since they are long, but I agree completely with what you have written, and I appreciate your thoughts.

 

If asked whether I wanted to be right or happy, I would have to pick "right." Because that is the moral choice. It was always really important to me to do the right thing, even if it was not the popular thing. I actually thought that put me in a morally superior position to others. Whyever would someone abandon the correct way in order to gain approval from others? I agree that being a Christian played into it for me, because the Bible teaches that we are going to face persecution for righteous beliefs.

 

Now that I'm older, I think I am more compassionate and more able to choose a loving response instead off a judgmental one. I can care about others, even if they don't follow the same moral code that I do. I still have to work on not being judgey, but I can see gray now, and not just black and white.

[Storygirl]

Here is the thing about changing schools or returning to homeschooling. That may be the absolutely correct choice, because it sounds like this school is not a great fit for her.

 

However, changing the environment will not change HER. She is still going to struggle with these tendencies, and problems will crop back up. So, yes, think about whether it is good to switch out of this school. But don't expect that will solve everything. Still seek help from professionals.

 

And I don't want to pile on, but I think considering autism would be helpful. It can manifest differently in girls. Being unable to see things from another perspective -- sometimes called Theory of Mind, and sometimes called perspective taking -- is a common red flag and can be at the root of black-and-white thinking. Social skills therapy can target this as an area to work on. People can have problems in these areas without having an autism diagnosis, as well.

 

[bethben]

I've asked her if she just wants to finish the year at home.  Honestly, she would learn more at home.  She doesn't want to.  Like I mentioned, she loves loves her teacher.  I very much do believe that she feels like she's helping him.  She's in a way taking on some of the adult responsibility that should be on his shoulders but due to the screwy system has been placed on the students.  I keep telling her that he's a big man and he can take care of himself.  She'll get upset when he is reprimanded for things like bringing the class late to lunch (yup - in front of the kids -- way to uphold the teacher's authority).  I've been thinking of pulling her out now and dh is pretty adamant that she stays.  We'll see what today's drama is.

 

BTW, if she had to pick between being right or being happy and having friends, she would choose happy and friends.  The times she tends to get her feeling hurt is when she's trying to be helpful/caring and someone takes her concern the wrong way. She's learned to be cautious with certain people that tend to be on the mean side.  I think a lot of her problems stem from just not encountering mean people in her life that often added to her tendency to want to be in charge.  

Edited February 6, 2018 by bethben

[forty-two]

I was thinking, wrt "be happy or be (proven) right", that there's a lot of ways to live the Truth without winning arguments, but there's not a lot of ways to live the Truth without, you know, *living the Truth*.

 

And even now, while I accept the theoretical possibility of there being ways to stand and live Truth that don't involve explicit debates (and Internet essays ;)), I am hard-pressed to actually *name* any concrete alternatives. I think that might be a helpful thing to do - brainstorm concrete ways to live out the ideal of justice, for example, that don't involve calling out people for doing wrong. Is not justice far more than identifying wrongdoers? Then there ought to be many just things to do in addition to calling out wrongdoing. It would be good to think through what some of them might be - find some concrete moral alternatives, so there's more choices than to stand up for justice via tattling or to look the other way for peer approval.

[forty-two]

I've asked her if she just wants to finish the year at home. Honestly, she would learn more at home. She doesn't want to. Like I mentioned, she loves loves her teacher. I very much do believe that she feels like she's helping him. She's in a way taking on some of the adult responsibility that should be on his shoulders but due to the screwy system has been placed on the students. I keep telling her that he's a big man and he can take care of himself. She'll get upset when he is reprimanded for things like bringing the class late to lunch (yup - in front of the kids -- way to uphold the teacher's authority). I've been thinking of pulling her out now and dh is pretty adamant that she stays. We'll see what today's drama is.

 

BTW, if she had to pick between being right or being happy and having friends, she would choose happy and friends. The times she tends to get her feeling hurt is when she's trying to be helpful/caring and someone takes her concern the wrong way. She's learned to be cautious with certain people that tend to be on the mean side. I think a lot of her problems stem from just not encountering mean people in her life that often added to her tendency to want to be in charge.

That first paragraph makes me think of anxiety and/or strong empathy. It sounds like it hurts her for her teacher to fail, so she's taking on extra responsibility to help him avoid it.

 

Eta: also, wrt your second paragraph, it sounds like she might be a zealous rule-follower in this situation as a means of supporting her beloved teacher, than because she's inherently drawn to rule-following for its own sake. In that case, the rule following and resulting tattling might be more of an symptom than the core issue itself.

Edited February 6, 2018 by forty-two

[Storygirl]

That first paragraph makes me think of anxiety and/or strong empathy. It sounds like it hurts her for her teacher to fail, so she's taking on extra responsibility to help him avoid it.

 

Yes!

 

I am hyper sensitive in every way, including empathy (though not towards rule-breakers ;) ). I remember being appalled at the poor behavior of other students when we had substitute teachers. I used to go up to the subs after class and apologize for the horribleness of the miscreants.

 

[Terabith]

She's 10? That's pretty spectrum-y. Just saying. You're saying she has behaviors and is upset if things don't go according to plan. Do the other kids in the class have these struggles, or just her?

 

These are questions psychs ask when they're sorting through things. They will ask what happens if things don't go the way she expected. You've got a lot of red flags.

 

The school could run the SLDT on her. You could make a written request. You could talk with your ped and get a referral for some screening. You just have a lot of dots here for SOMETHING. If she's needing more support than 30 other kids, that's significant.

 

I don't know....  It could be spectrum ish, but if the school is actively encouraging this kind of thing, and she is suffering punishments because other kids are misbehaving, that seems pretty much within the realms of normal to me.  The whole situation would be maddening to me as an adult, and the mixed signals between what the adults want and what behavior kids want (and again, fourth grade has been the epitome of mean girl drama for both my super NT, social, extrovert kid and my Aspie ish kid).  It's a horrible situation.  She really can't win.  I mean, that kind of classroom management is DESIGNED to encourage kids to tattle, be rigid, and anxious.  It's stupid and mean.

 

[Katy]

I've asked her if she just wants to finish the year at home.  Honestly, she would learn more at home.  She doesn't want to.  Like I mentioned, she loves loves her teacher.  I very much do believe that she feels like she's helping him.  She's in a way taking on some of the adult responsibility that should be on his shoulders but due to the screwy system has been placed on the students.  I keep telling her that he's a big man and he can take care of himself.  She'll get upset when he is reprimanded for things like bringing the class late to lunch (yup - in front of the kids -- way to uphold the teacher's authority).  I've been thinking of pulling her out now and dh is pretty adamant that she stays.  We'll see what today's drama is.

 

BTW, if she had to pick between being right or being happy and having friends, she would choose happy and friends.  The times she tends to get her feeling hurt is when she's trying to be helpful/caring and someone takes her concern the wrong way. She's learned to be cautious with certain people that tend to be on the mean side.  I think a lot of her problems stem from just not encountering mean people in her life that often added to her tendency to want to be in charge.  

 

Wow.  This is so psychologically unhealthy if this story held up after talking to the teacher and the principal, I'd go straight to the school board.  I would absolutely not allow her to "help" her teacher any more - this is setting her up for all kinds of boundary issues later.  She should not be held responsible for something she has no right to control. Creating a system where children are supposed to monitor each other sets kids up to be bullied.  ETA: this is teaching her to have a codependent relationship.

 

Watching a teacher get publicly reprimanded crosses all sorts of boundaries - does your city not have a teacher's union?

 

Having learned more, I'd either go to the school board or yank her now.

 

 

I don't know....  It could be spectrum ish, but if the school is actively encouraging this kind of thing, and she is suffering punishments because other kids are misbehaving, that seems pretty much within the realms of normal to me.  The whole situation would be maddening to me as an adult, and the mixed signals between what the adults want and what behavior kids want (and again, fourth grade has been the epitome of mean girl drama for both my super NT, social, extrovert kid and my Aspie ish kid).  It's a horrible situation.  She really can't win.  I mean, that kind of classroom management is DESIGNED to encourage kids to tattle, be rigid, and anxious.  It's stupid and mean.

 

 

This.  It's at the very least not healthy, and depending on your local laws, it might actually be illegal.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Katy

[bethben]

She's angry.  I think kids who have been in the system since kindergarten know a little how to deal with the absurdities better.  She has always been able to see through things to see inconsistencies and what she calls "stupid" ideas.  Today was a good day.  I told her to just stay away from the little girl who blurted out and hurt her feelings yesterday.  Then the problem doesn't escalate and they can just let things calm down.  She did take my advice and laid low. So, no confrontations and peaceful day.  I guess my job right now is to help her figure out relationships and how to relate to mean people because they are always around.  This school will be a bad blip in her life.  The good thing is - our relationship is much better and her intensity has calmed down quite a bit.  We still have our moments, but I'm not wiped out from all day daily interaction so I can handle them much better.   

 

Yes, the classroom management system is not healthy.  I do plan on talking to someone about it.  I'm pretty sure there are other kids who desperately want to please their teacher and do their best.  For those more intense children, this is an impediment to learning.  

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

So rule following is spectrumy.  I really don't get this at all.  And let's suppose it is.  What will be done?  Nothing.  Nothing will be done except people will say oh well Sally is upset that people make rules they don't follow because she has a documented special need. 

 

Growing up I had a couple of teachers who would punish the entire class if a couple of kids acted out.  I also recall the entire group of students at lunch (hundreds) being lined up against the wall during recess because too many were talking and it was too loud.  Each time I wondered what I had done wrong and what was the point of rules at all if one is punished for following them. 

 

It's nice that you care enough to try and figure it out.  I can't say I had anyone in my life who cared. 

[JudoMom]

She's angry. I think kids who have been in the system since kindergarten know a little how to deal with the absurdities better. She has always been able to see through things to see inconsistencies and what she calls "stupid" ideas. Today was a good day. I told her to just stay away from the little girl who blurted out and hurt her feelings yesterday. Then the problem doesn't escalate and they can just let things calm down. She did take my advice and laid low. So, no confrontations and peaceful day. I guess my job right now is to help her figure out relationships and how to relate to mean people because they are always around. This school will be a bad blip in her life. The good thing is - our relationship is much better and her intensity has calmed down quite a bit. We still have our moments, but I'm not wiped out from all day daily interaction so I can handle them much better.

 

Yes, the classroom management system is not healthy. I do plan on talking to someone about it. I'm pretty sure there are other kids who desperately want to please their teacher and do their best. For those more intense children, this is an impediment to learning.

I'm glad it was a good day.

 

I wanted to tell you that the character traits that are causing her so much anger and angst will serve her well in the future as she learns how to manage them. Being deeply concerned with right and wrong and standing up are wonderful things.

 

I'd not worry whether or not she's learning academics, but reframe this semester as learning how to manage her strong emotions. She has time to catch up on academics, but this is a limited opportunity to have daily chances to work on honing her character.

 

(That said, if she wants to come home, I'd yank her and do minimal school to keep your stress level down until you heard from the lottery.)

[Homebody2]

I think her rigidity has some to do with right and wrong but a lot more to do with promised rewards that

are constantly never earned. She wants the reward at the end of the week that the teacher wants to give but the classroom behavior always interferes. I’ve promised her rewards on Friday if the class doesn’t earn it. She still gets upset though.

 

 

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The rules at this school seem too rigid and not child appropriate. As a former elementary teacher, I constantly had to remind myself that I was working with 9, 10, and 11 year old children. Children who were still growing and learning. Children who forgot things simply because they were kids. Children who needed to be guided.

 

There were rules in my classroom, but there was also lots of reinforcement and practice before there were expectations of perfection. And even then there was flexibility.

 

My classroom was a place of learning, and that applied to learning how to follow rules as well. We encouraged each other, celebrated together, helped each other. I fostered a classroom of trust and friendship. We were a team!

 

This school just sounds like its trying to keep control rather than foster community.

[Innisfree]

So rule following is spectrumy. I really don't get this at all.

Rule following can be spectrumy, but not all kids on the spectrum focus on it and of course not all rule followers are on the spectrum.

 

I'm providing this link just as an interesting explanation for anyone who wants to understand this. Based on all the information in the thread, I don't see any strong reason to think it applies to the OP's dd. Her school sounds like a mess, and I hope the OP can figure out a good way to help her cope.

 

http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2017/01/cognitive-and-behavioral-inflexibility.html?m=1

 

 

"They often have limited frustration-tolerance and may display tantrums when thwarted. Routines and rules are very important to kids with HFA in providing a sense of needed order and structure, and thus, predictability about the world.

 

Another form or inflexibility is moralism, a kind of self-righteous and strict adherence to nonnegotiable moral principles that is often out of context with practical reality. An example may be a youngster who criticizes a parent who has run a yellow traffic light when the parent is on the way to the emergency room for treatment of a severe injury.

 

Inflexibility is also found in the rigidity over matters that are of little consequence, such as arguing about whether the route to the emergency room was the quickest when it might be the difference between a few hundred yards by choosing to take one turn over another. In the classroom, this may be found when an HFA student fixates on a perception that a teacher has not enforced a rule consistently. Such fixations on moral correctness can escalate and interfere with availability for instruction."

Edited February 7, 2018 by Innisfree

[Nart]

I must be missing something. A 4th grade girl is social and has friends (plenty of other girls want to play with her after school), is in a chaotic classroom where the teacher encourages the students to motivate each other to behave by imposing class wide consequences and rewards, and the school promotes this culture of behavior management.

So the 4th grade girl prompts others in the class to behave so she won't be punished and the class won't be punished and in the hopes they can get a reward. Misbehaving kids are annoyed and make faces at her and are mean to her.

 

Since she is a girl she must be "bossy" , "annoying", and/or "nagging others", and so needs help with her social skills.

If she were a boy she would be "assertive" and be "showing leadership skills".

[bethben]

This is a child that if someone else doesn’t show strong leadership, she will. The school has dictated that the whole class is responsible for classroom behavior (vs. self government—you behave because it’s the right thing to do). So, for her, it’s created a strong leader vacuum. As parents, we’ve learned to be unbending about rules and may to others seem a little more strict with her than our other children. But, for her, it gives her security to know she doesn’t have to take care of things herself and just be a child.

 

I can see her running an orphanage someday in another country or evangelizing a whole country changing its social welfare system for the better. She has a good heart and the force of character to do it. I have told her that she will most likely have to deal with mean people her whole life and this is a small start to getting a tough skin while walking in kindness.

 

 

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[Innisfree]

She sounds like a wonderful, caring girl. Hugs to you both as you deal with this situation.

[AmandaVT]

Yes!

 

I am hyper sensitive in every way, including empathy (though not towards rule-breakers ;) ). I remember being appalled at the poor behavior of other students when we had substitute teachers. I used to go up to the subs after class and apologize for the horribleness of the miscreants.

 

 

My anxiety manifested like this in high school. I was the only one in class that unlocked the door when my class locked the sub out of the classroom. Fighting against the herd mentality can be hard sometimes.