Ausmumof3 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Dd8 nearly 9 seems to be hitting a wall with maths. Background is She had aptitude testing at around 6 and tested really high (top 1percentile). She had a few struggles understanding how numbers progress through from 9 to the next number up. She's been doing reasonably well. She picked up simple fractions very quickly last year. She had a few struggles with division and multiplication. (Mixing the two up for example). We've just come off holiday break and are working through Singapore 4A. She is really really having a hard time with place value in the hundred thousands and the millions. She's making a lot of mistakes and not demonstrating understanding and forgetting which place is which etc. Today was 2 hours on one lesson and still not finished I have a few options 1. Stop here and really work on this unit till she gets it 2. Use alternate resources or a more repetitive curriculum for a while. Come back to it later. 3. Assume it's first week back issues and keep moving forward and hope it makes sense on the reviews for her 4. Repeat last years math either by getting Singapore extra practice or using another curriculum and just put her back a grade. She only just makes the cutoff for her grade anyway. I struggle with this kid because I feel that there is some kind of asynchronicity going on. She can pick up and understand some very advanced concepts but still struggle with really basic stuff at times. In other areas she learned to read and blend really quickly but doesn't seem to progress very quickly in actually reading longer novels etc. She's much more capable when she's really motivated and engaged but I'm finding it hard to find that right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaceseeker Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 So much of math depends on really understanding place value. Hard to say if you need to dig in or move on and circle back. I would probably have to judge by the frustration and tolerance level of my kid. If it is the first week after a long break I would give it a couple of weeks and see how it is going. Maybe keep progressing but with a short mini lesson on place value with manipulatives before the main lesson? Then if it still isn't clicking it might be time to reevaluate or slow down. For what it is worth, Math U See did give my kids an excellent foundation in place value. It focused on place value very clearly even as they learned each algorithm. It was not a perfect math program for us, but that was one of its strengths. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) I would not, under any circumstances, spend two hours on a math lesson at this age. I don't know what the best thing to do is, but I'm sure that's a bad idea. Does she have problems with place value with smaller numbers? Like, does she have trouble distinguishing between numbers in the thousands and tens of thousands? I struggle with this kid because I feel that there is some kind of asynchronicity going on. She can pick up and understand some very advanced concepts but still struggle with really basic stuff at times. In other areas she learned to read and blend really quickly but doesn't seem to progress very quickly in actually reading longer novels etc. You know I always think a full evaluation is worth the time. Could give you more insight into the best way to teach her. Edited February 2, 2018 by Tanaqui 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegs Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Has she had her vision checked by a behavioural optometrist? The trouble keeping numbers in place and the poor reading stamina are throwing up little red flags for me. Just a thought. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 I would not, under any circumstances, spend two hours on a math lesson at this age. I don't know what the best thing to do is, but I'm sure that's a bad idea. Does she have problems with place value with smaller numbers? Like, does she have trouble distinguishing between numbers in the thousands and tens of thousands? You know I always think a full evaluation is worth the time. Could give you more insight into the best way to teach her. I know right?! I did learn this with my older and generally stop at an hour. However this dd is paranoid of getting behind and hates not finishing the lesson plus we had tradesmen in the house so we were kind of stuck on the schoolroom and I couldn't see my kitchen clock and just lost track of time. I am going to schedule us with a time limit for various subjects again I think re Evaluations I think if we do this it will be totally out of pocket and really expensive. If we can get around it I really don't want to go that way at this point although the info would be useful. Overall she has advanced vocabulary, poor fine motor skills, I think reasonable working memory, somewhat impulsive somewhat hyperactive at times, definitely sensory seeking. Also obsessive interests. Whether or not those characteristics fall into the range of normal or not I guess is where evaluations help. She tends to get along well with other diagnosed aspies but also has NT friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Has she had her vision checked by a behavioural optometrist? The trouble keeping numbers in place and the poor reading stamina are throwing up little red flags for me. Just a thought. We did eye checks at the optometrist and they were fairly thorough (over half an hour each) but I'm not sure if that's what you are talking about. They did check convergence and tracking etc. it was the reading that made me get that checked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Oh also she tends to have a lot of trouble with left and right and in TKD she had trouble mirroring the instructor to learn patterns (often turns the wrong way etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 have you tried using a place value mat? something like this https://www.theeducationalwarehouse.com/product-page/small-white-board-place-value-one-only-4-20 you could probably make one yourself and laminate it so you child could use it like a whiteboard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I think if we do this it will be totally out of pocket and really expensive. If we can get around it I really don't want to go that way at this point although the info would be useful. I feel ya... but I gotta say, the specific list of traits you give absolutely screams "neuroatypical" to me. You can't get a diagnosis done through the schools in Australia? And there's no organizations or charities that will cut the price for you? Sooner or later she's going to be in the real world. She'll go to university, she'll get a job... ten years will pass a lot quicker than we think. I don't know what the law is in Australia, but I'd be surprised if she can have school or workplace accommodations without a formal diagnosis. But I can get really boring/strident on this subject. Moving back to the question you actually asked - you say she just barely fits onto this grade level in math. What other parts of math is she having trouble with? (And if it's the case that she's barely on level and you do decide to move her back for a bit, combined with her anxiety about being behind I'd really suggest that you move to a different curriculum, preferably one without a visible grade level on the cover. Less demoralizing.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Look up Math U See's place value village. With my oldest, we managed to continue this concept with a same-colored Montessori multiplication mat and coloring graph paper through Excel to use for large problems - repeated strips of the same color to show ones, tens, hundreds in each part (unit, thousands, millions). With the youngest, he didn't need quite as many aids, but we used same-colored layered number cards as he grasped it. (Colored index cards, but those long tagboard strips would have worked just as well when cut down in increments and using markers or colored pencils to make the numbers) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fralala Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Totally agree on the evaluation. The following suggestion is what I'd do in terms of math while you're waiting to take care of that. That sounds like a bad day. On a bad day, every single thing our kid has struggled with comes back to mind, and I have had to ban myself from making any major (or minor) purchases after a bad day. I'd want to have a better day today, and so what I usually do is say something like, "We need to spend some time really working on place value, which is a pain because I know that's your least favorite thing." (IT IS. Place value lessons in this house are a drag. We'd all rather be doing multiplication, or fractions, or division.) "So we're going to make it as painless as possible." Then I get a bunch of place value related games to choose from-- thanks to some Google research ahead of time and a deck of cards, place value discs and our place value mat. Coins and dollars are fine motivation if you want to refresh ones, tens, and hundreds. And that's our math class for a few days or a week until we go back to the book and see if it's making a difference. (All kids are different, but I've found that my dd who struggles never gets too old to prefer not losing these math games. We save the losing gracefully lessons for things that she doesn't already feel she's an abject failure at.) Good luck. Hope today is better! (Or whenever. Time zone confusion here.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemsondana Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I don't have any specific suggestions for teaching place value, but at times I've had to stop and repeat certain concepts with my kids. If you decide to do some 'fun math' for a change of pace, the Sir Cumference has a book about place value (All the King's Tens) that might be a fun supplement. It can be tricky - sometimes a kid just isn't developmentally ready for a particular concept, and taking a break helps. We once stopped and did most of an entire different Alg curriculum before returning to our main, more difficult, one. Other times, if they can calm their frustration, they're able to work through the difficult new idea. As their teacher, it can be hard to know what they need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exercise_guru Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I like to use real life stuff when this goes sideways. Is there something she wants to get at the dollar store? Can you use pennies and dimes and a dollar coin to show place value? Its also great for one more , one less etc. Also anything tactile that teaches this. Make it fun so she doesn't get a block and she might have a breakthrough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 I feel ya... but I gotta say, the specific list of traits you give absolutely screams "neuroatypical" to me. You can't get a diagnosis done through the schools in Australia? And there's no organizations or charities that will cut the price for you? Sooner or later she's going to be in the real world. She'll go to university, she'll get a job... ten years will pass a lot quicker than we think. I don't know what the law is in Australia, but I'd be surprised if she can have school or workplace accommodations without a formal diagnosis. But I can get really boring/strident on this subject. Moving back to the question you actually asked - you say she just barely fits onto this grade level in math. What other parts of math is she having trouble with? (And if it's the case that she's barely on level and you do decide to move her back for a bit, combined with her anxiety about being behind I'd really suggest that you move to a different curriculum, preferably one without a visible grade level on the cover. Less demoralizing.) Oh I meant just in terms of age and the way our grading works more than capability. I have Saxon available also Miquon though I think she might have passed the levels we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Dd wouldn't have learned that stuff without the CSMP minicomputers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Dd wouldn't have learned that stuff without the CSMP minicomputers. I've never heard of them? Sounds interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking Squirrels Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I don't have suggestions on getting down this specific topic, but we recently hit a wall in 4a as well. DD has always done pretty well in math but for some reason multi-digit multiplication got her. She would do one problem perfectly and the next she would make errors in multiple places. I was considering all the same options as you. I've went with a combo of option 1 and 2. So this week for math we've been spending 10 minutes working through multi-digit multiplication problems together. Then she spends the rest of her math time (so about 30 minutes) on BA which she is doing a year behind SM. (Usually BA is done on mondays and SM the rest of the week) Next week I'm going to keep with the 10 minutes on problems together if she still needs it, but then for the rest of the time we will move on. This is the last bit before it moves to the fractions unit and she loves fractions, so I think we'll be able to move on while still slowly working through this block. She did well today so I think she almost has it and we have only done this split way this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking Squirrels Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I know right?! I did learn this with my older and generally stop at an hour. However this dd is paranoid of getting behind and hates not finishing the lesson plus we had tradesmen in the house so we were kind of stuck on the schoolroom and I couldn't see my kitchen clock and just lost track of time. I am going to schedule us with a time limit for various subjects again I think re Evaluations I think if we do this it will be totally out of pocket and really expensive. If we can get around it I really don't want to go that way at this point although the info would be useful. Overall she has advanced vocabulary, poor fine motor skills, I think reasonable working memory, somewhat impulsive somewhat hyperactive at times, definitely sensory seeking. Also obsessive interests. Whether or not those characteristics fall into the range of normal or not I guess is where evaluations help. She tends to get along well with other diagnosed aspies but also has NT friends. Wow, this is my daughter almost exactly. The only difference being that her working memory is more on the iffy side than reasonable, but still not too bad. FWIW, her dx is ADHD, SPD, GAD. Testing and knowing definitely helps, but I get holding off, it can get crazy expensive. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I don't have suggestions on getting down this specific topic, but we recently hit a wall in 4a as well. DD has always done pretty well in math but for some reason multi-digit multiplication got her. She would do one problem perfectly and the next she would make errors in multiple places. I was considering all the same options as you. I've went with a combo of option 1 and 2. So this week for math we've been spending 10 minutes working through multi-digit multiplication problems together. Then she spends the rest of her math time (so about 30 minutes) on BA which she is doing a year behind SM. (Usually BA is done on mondays and SM the rest of the week) Next week I'm going to keep with the 10 minutes on problems together if she still needs it, but then for the rest of the time we will move on. This is the last bit before it moves to the fractions unit and she loves fractions, so I think we'll be able to move on while still slowly working through this block. She did well today so I think she almost has it and we have only done this split way this week. We teach that similar to this video, but we teach the traditional algorithm and go backward with the blocks. Once this is down we move to the color coded paper to do the same thing. DS had trouble until I brought out the MUS blocks and taught it that way and now he knows exactly what he is doing and says it out loud as he goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking Squirrels Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 We teach that similar to this video, but we teach the traditional algorithm and go backward with the blocks. Once this is down we move to the color coded paper to do the same thing. DS had trouble until I brought out the MUS blocks and taught it that way and now he knows exactly what he is doing and says it out loud as he goes. We worked through one problem yesterday using base 10 blocks in a similar way to what she does here. I might get them out again next time and do another trying to do it how you say, going backward with the blocks aiding the algorithm. We did the blocks and showed how that corresponded to the algorithm, but putting up the blocks as we go through the problem might help visualize it a different way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I've never heard of them? Sounds interesting! http://stern.buffalostate.edu/CSMPProgram/Primary%20Disk/Start.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Free-Place-Value-Cards-1317862 Practice and make it fun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 http://stern.buffalostate.edu/CSMPProgram/Primary%20Disk/Start.html Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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