Latin killed the Romans and now Lukeion is killing me?

[Caraway]

Please help me figure out what to do.  I want to give up and be done, but I could be convinced to solider on.

 

My son (currently 14) took Latin 1 last year with Mrs. Barr at Lukeion. It was a lot of work, but he received an A each semester, and a silver medal on the NLE.

 

This year DS is in Latin 2.  PSQ was fine, almost perfect scores on noun-a-poloza and verb-a-poloza.  Then a startling 76% on a test.  Thinking he wasn't studying enough I forced midterm studying to the exclusion of everything else.  I have never seen a kid so prepared for a test.  He got a disappointing 86%.  

 

This week's homework almost killed both of us.  Then when you go to turn it in there is MORE work.  Usually just a few checkpoint questions, but today it was like a mini quiz tacked onto the homework.  It feels like we are both drowning.  He can't make it without LOTS of support and study help.  But I barely squeaked thru high school French.  The whole thing makes me stressed, and makes me feel like a really big (and dumb) failure.

 

My ideals of Latin thru the AP test are clearly not going to happen.  My husband keeps telling me to try harder/longer, but frankly it isn't his life being consumed by this class.  

 

I feel like if he drops out now, it was all for "nothing".  He will need to start over with a modern language for high school credit.  If we drag through and he gets a bad grade, then it will drag his GPA down.  

 

Have you dropped out of Lukeion?  Did you feel amazing relief?  Was it the biggest mistake ever???

[maize]

I would consider dropping Lukeion (which is notoriously time consuming) if it is causing so much stress and continuing with Latin on your own at a pace that works for him.

 

Most high school Latin classes in a school setting are not Lukeion-intense; it doesn't have to be that way to grant credit nor to make it to AP Latin.

 

I'd want to discuss the situation with his teacher first though and get their input.

Edited October 14, 2017 by maize

[maize]

I wouldn't be disappointed with an 86 on a difficult test though, that is an excellent grade in a setting where grade inflation is not the norm. It can be good for kids to learn that perfect scores are not the point of education. If you are truly stretching your mind you are not going to get perfect scores; I consider those an indication that the challenge level is set too low.

[RootAnn]

It doesn't have to be Lukeion or bust.

If you decide to not continue with Lukeion, you might try contacting Lone Pine about placement in their Latin 2 class. They use a different book, but you might find that he's fine to jump in where LP's Latin 2 class is right now without much pain.

[h2bh]

I agree with RootAnn. I greatly respect the Barrs, but for my language loving dd, it wasn't the best fit. It was taking more time than I thought was balanced. She is thriving with the Latin Alive series 2 and 3 at WHA and 4 at Schole due to scheduling issues). Her stress level is low, she still has medals on the NLE and desires to take AP Latin next year with Mrs. Hensley at WHA. Switching for us was the right decision.

[OnMyOwn]

My dd is taking AP Latin with Lukeion right now, but we didn't start using their classes until halfway through last year. We actually started with a local coop that moved very slowly through Latin 1 (they offer options to do it over 2 years or 3 years) and then my dd switched to Lone Pine for Latin 2, which actually wound up almost entirely repeating the material she had already covered with a tutor over the summer. She was frustrated with the repetition in Latin 2, but I often wonder if the reason she is so strong in Latin now is because we really took our time with the basics in the beginning and let it all sink in.

 

So, I definitely think you should take a look at some other options if this class is too much for your son right now. He can still reach the same end goal. He may just need another approach.

[Barb_]

I had to like your post just for the title. I smile every time I see it. Carry on.

[chiguirre]

We've never done Lukeion but we had a similar fiasco. We did Landry Academy's Latin 1 and 2. Latin 1 was great, they did the first half of Jenney's Latin 1. Then, they switched textbooks to Latin Alive 2. What a disaster!!! I'm sure Latin Alive is perfectly fine if you start with it but jumping in in Latin 2 with gaps was just a hellish experience. We spent waaaaay too much time on Latin and it was a frustration for T and for me. So, we ditched it for a year. 

 

Then, we decided to enroll in Memoria Press Online Academy for high school and T needs to take 4 years of Latin. They use Henle. I always thought Henle was very intimidating with the separate grammar book and the tiny print, but it's really not bad at all. We ended up doing the first year on our own over the summer because it was all review and T jumped right in to the second year class with no trouble at all. It's a good pace, not overwhelming. Henle does spend an enormous amount of time on Latin Mass prayers and Caesar but that's not awful. She'll be well prepared to tackle Caesar next year and since she sings in a church choir that does a fair bit in Latin the prayers have been interesting for T.

 

So, my take away from our Latin saga is to back up if it starts to be overwhelming. Seriously, stop and review with another text if you need to (Henle really is a good choice even if it's layout is from before WWII. It builds slowly and the readings are not insurmountable.) It will start to click into place and you'll find that you can do it. It just needed a bit of time to sink in.

[The Governess]

Dd is taking Latin 2 with Lukeion this year as well. It is definitely tougher than Latin 1. For us, I think it's partly because a lot of the Latin 1 material was review after First and Second Form. She already knew a lot of the grammar, just the translations were much harder.

 

This year she is definitely spending a lot more time on the homework and on studying for quizzes. Her grades are a bit lower than last year and she's having to work harder for them. Overall she is still doing okay, but I'm really looking forward to that long Christmas break!!

[katilac]

You have to separate out the issues: workload and stress is one issue, grades are a completely different issue. 

 

It's really difficult when a high-achieving student gets those first B's and C's, but those are not bad grades! And they are going in the right direction, from a mid-C to a mid-B. They're definitely not reason to think that AP level is clearly not going to happen. 

 

I have heard that Lukeion is indeed a lot of work, and reaching AP level in Latin is definitely a lot of work no matter how you do it. We didn't get there, but we certainly learned a lot trying  :001_smile:

 

The first thing I would do is talk to the teacher. How does she feel ds is doing? Was this a difficult hump in the semester, or will it get harder? Any advice on handling the workload? Just lay out your concerns and ask for advice and thoughts. 

 

Consider that he may or may not find a modern language any easier. It generally is easier time-wise if you don't take an outside course, but is that a possibility? It can be done, my dds did it for French. They slayed grammar in college courses (thanks, BtB!) but had to work hard on speaking and pronunciation. If he takes an outside course, will it take any less time? It certainly might, but make sure you investigate. 

 

Then I would consider the rest of his schedule. Are there certain things that can be minimized while this course is in session? My kids DE at the local uni, and yes, outside classes tend to be a big time suck compared to home grown classes. So we would pare down some other courses while classes were in session, and hit them hard when they were out. We always started early August and finished up some things in June, so that was easy for us. A lot of literature and history reading got done over the winter holidays, and then again in June. 

 

And I'd ask ds what he wants to do, and for ideas on making it more manageable. If he'd like to continue with L if it were more manageable, what does he think of working on a few subjects earlier and later in the school year? My kids never had a problem with it, because they still had most of the day to themselves plus all of July off, and they didn't like long days throughout the year. 

 

I think it's reasonable if you decide that L is not the way to go for him long-term, but I don't think I would drop out of this semester based on what you have mentioned. He's doing pretty well, and I would probably just adjust the rest of his schedule to finish out the semester. And of course talk to the teacher. 

[Caraway]

Thanks all. Lots to think about.

 

I would agree that I have many different issues intertwined. I think his course load in general is heavy - lots of writing in history and English. Those are also outside courses, so we are keeping up with someone else's schedule.

 

In an ideal world he would learn for the sake of learning and grades wouldn't matter. However since he will be applying to colleges this isn't really reality. This class is certainly WAY beyond any language class I took in high school, but it's not like I get to put an asterisk next to the grade and say "this would have been an A at the local PS".

 

My sense is that 2b is even more intense.

 

 

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[Caraway]

What is WHA?

 

 

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[RootAnn]

What is WHA?

 

Wilson Hill Academy

[Meriwether]

My DD14 is also taking Lukeion's Latin II this year and hasn't done well on the last three tests. She has two issues. She hasn't put enough time in -about 5 hours per week instead of 10 and it is catching up with her. And, she makes stupid mistakes because she goes too quickly and doesn't check over her tests before she submits them. She has been working on it this week. I hope adjusting expectations on the time investment will be enough to get her back on track. The thing is, she is busy. She is doing 9 credits for school. She does TKD at least 5 hours per week, sometimes more plus tournaments monthly. She does CAP which has some time commitments in addition to the 3 hours per week for the meeting. She is volunteering 4 hours per week. She has a piano lesson plus practice. Choir for 3 hours per week. And she has responsibilities around the house. Busy, busy, busy. Getting a full 10 hours or more in for one class will be difficult.

 

I love the Lukeion class. I love their educational philosophy. I love how much Dd14 is learning. I even love that it is difficult. What a great experience. Except, Dd14 has a chance at a free tuition at a local university. She is just 3 points away from the minimum ACT score. But she needs to also have a 4.0. She has got to get this class figured out or it is going to be a *very* expensive Latin class.

[Meriwether]

My daughter is also learning Spanish (taught by me) with another student. They are both bright kids and are learning more than my students learned when I taught high school Spanish. By quite a lot. And yet, it is far, far easier than the Lukeion class. So much easier that it seems ludicrous to compare them. I think many schools would consider a class of that caliber an honors class and make it worth 5 points, but that doesn't help me.

[Caraway]

My DD14 is also taking Lukeion's Latin II this year and hasn't done well on the last three tests. She has two issues. She hasn't put enough time in -about 5 hours per week instead of 10 and it is catching up with her. And, she makes stupid mistakes because she goes too quickly and doesn't check over her tests before she submits them. She has been working on it this week. I hope adjusting expectations on the time investment will be enough to get her back on track. The thing is, she is busy. She is doing 9 credits for school. She does TKD at least 5 hours per week, sometimes more plus tournaments monthly. She does CAP which has some time commitments in addition to the 3 hours per week for the meeting. She is volunteering 4 hours per week. She has a piano lesson plus practice. Choir for 3 hours per week. And she has responsibilities around the house. Busy, busy, busy. Getting a full 10 hours or more in for one class will be difficult.

 

I love the Lukeion class. I love their educational philosophy. I love how much Dd14 is learning. I even love that it is difficult. What a great experience. Except, Dd14 has a chance at a free tuition at a local university. She is just 3 points away from the minimum ACT score. But she needs to also have a 4.0. She has got to get this class figured out or it is going to be a *very* expensive Latin class.

We are facing similar issues. Other classes with lots of assigned work and daily crew practice. On one hand I think, well maybe rowing is taking up too much time, but also I'm not sure that more time would solve the issue.

 

With the midterm he knew all vocabulary, all forms, etc. The paragraph of translation killed his grade. And the time given to take the test is not enough to be able to calmly puzzle through the text. The test is FAST.

 

 

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[chiguirre]

If a class takes 10 hours a week, it needs to occupy two slots (and your dc must love it and it must be crucial to their future plans). If you had all classes like that, you couldn't possibly do more than 5 or you would have few extracurriculars and not much down time either. It's a balancing act to get in rigorous coursework and enough ECs to have a well rounded student while still giving your kid enough free time to unwind. If something is throwing everything else out of kilter, it's time to think about making changes.

 

IMHO, you can be a rigorous as you want in middle school but once high school starts you need to decide if you're going to play the college admissions game or not. It's okay to decide that you won't but that means your student will not have the profile that competitive schools or honors programs look for. You might be able to develop an amazing skill in one thing that makes you shine but you do need to shine. Spending 10 hours on Latin and getting mediocre grades is not going to make your kid stand out in a scholarship competition or for Ivy admission. It's just not.

 

(FWIW, we went the wimpy route of picking a school that is solid but limits their coursework to about 6 hours a week. They require 7 classes a year, 5 online, 2 on your own so you can do them in the summer or at a slower tempo year round. They require an entrance exam so they've already preselected good test takers that will give them high class average scores on the SAT, ACT and APs. It's clear that they know how to package their students for college admissions. That's not a noble goal but it is necessary for college admissions today.)

[skimomma]

My 14yo is in AP Latin with Lukeion this year, and yes there have been several times that I had to be talked off of the ledge.  Those classes are very difficult and time consuming.  I have practically begged dd to consider dropping at least once a year but she has insisted on sticking it out.  Dd is bright but not gifted so this is a stretch for her.

 

I don't think it is a good fit for everyone and if it is indeed killing you, there are many other good options.  I do think their new model with two years of "Latin 3" would have been great for dd and taken some of the pressure off.  She was one year too early.

 

Two things to keep in mind if you do choose to stick it out:

 

1.  This is the only class in which I have to heavily scaffold dd.  She needs at least 10 hours a week, sometimes more, to keep up.  This was true in all four years.  There have been a couple of times where she has slipped behind and it was crucial to methodically catch up.  I sit down with her every week right after class and we map out what needs to be done and when it will be done.  If the work is not evenly spread across all seven days of the week, dd gets overwhelmed.  We talk about what kinds of study methods work and what new methods she might want to try in a given week.  We talk about the latest batch of grades and what may have gone right/wrong so study methods can be adjusted and review areas can be identified.  One task that makes the list every week is reviewing mistakes on past assignments/exams.  I am on top of her every day to make sure she is not slipping.  

 

2.  We have had to back off of other subjects to make this happen.  Since this is dd's last year, I purposely made her load lighter in other subjects.  She only has 6 credits total and one is a non-academic elective.  She can catch up or expand next year if she wants.  Or maybe we can just BREATHE for a year.  

 

[MinivanMom]

My daughter is also learning Spanish (taught by me) with another student. They are both bright kids and are learning more than my students learned when I taught high school Spanish. By quite a lot. And yet, it is far, far easier than the Lukeion class. So much easier that it seems ludicrous to compare them. I think many schools would consider a class of that caliber an honors class and make it worth 5 points, but that doesn't help me.

 

Our local public high school labels second-year Latin and up as "Honors". I was surprised by that since I've never seen foreign language classes labeled as honors before, but it makes sense from a difficulty standpoint. 

Edited October 15, 2017 by MinivanMom

[Meriwether]

Skimomma, would you mind sharing what study methods worked best?

[skimomma]

Skimomma, would you mind sharing what study methods worked best?

 

Sure!

 

She followed the syllabus advice about making her own flashcards and studying from them as well as the games online.  In addition, I would give her a "spelling test" two days before each quiz so we could identify problem words.  She just used a white board.  It was important that this not be verbal as I was checking for correct spelling as well.  If she missed any, I would retest the problem words the next day.  I printed out the vocab lists and made notes of words that got missed at any point and we would keep the problem word flashcards active all semester.  Before the final exams, I would also go through the entire list with her again so we could catch any words that slipped out of her brain.  As dd moved into AP Latin, I have backed off on helping with the vocabulary.  Dd has been able to take that over on her own but it is penciled into her daily schedule.  This includes review of vocab from all past years.

 

I have dd print out her homework from Quia right after she submits it.  The next day, she goes through the homework and compares her answers to the sample answers.  In pencil she makes corrections and notes about things to watch out for in the future.  Once it is graded, she goes through it again and marks any correction she may have missed.  She keeps all of these in a binder and refers to them again when getting ready for quizzes or the final exams.  

 

After every quiz, dd is required to go through and make notes of her mistakes.  These are reviewed before final exams.

 

We have found that dd retains much better if she spreads out the homework over several days.  This not only makes it less overwhelming but also seems to be better for practice.

 

Dd followed the advice in the syllabus to rewrite her notes immediately after class.  That does not apply so much to Latin 3 and 4 but was necessary in 1 and 2.

[Meriwether]

Thank you!

[domesticidyll]

Latin 2 study methods at my house:

 

Mon: read chapter, work through self-tutorial exercises & flag hard sentences, write paradigm of the week on board in kitchen, start working on vocab

Tue: review vocab, class, type up notes

Wed: review vocab, first half of homework

Thurs: second half of homework, submit, review for mistakes, flag hardest sentences 

Fri/weekend: read "Latin is fun and useful," glance over any sentences that were especially hard, take quiz

 

Most helpful are reading the grammar before class and doing the self-tutorial. Kiddo also checks work specifically for verb TENSE and VOICE before submitting. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

There is a Quizlet set for the Little Annoying Words that a current student is keeping. It's over 50 words right now. I like Quizlett because it lets you star words that you need to work on, merge sets and see stats.

 

Ds copies the translation sentences out of the book, then recopies them enlarged quite a bit. This has helped him make notes on the case and tense of various words.

[domesticidyll]

I did not know Quizlet allowed set merging. Thanks so much!!!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I did not know Quizlet allowed set merging. Thanks so much!!!

 

Directions for combining on a computer.

 

Go to one of the sets you want to combine.  

Above the tiles with different ways to study the set there is a row of icons (copy, share, add to class, etc).  The last one is three dots.  This opens a drop down menu with "combine" as one of the options.

Click on Combine.

To the right is a box labeled Combine.  The box allows you to select other sets in your folders or classes.  Or you can use the search box to look for sets made by other students.

 

One of my kids used Quizlet to study for the big vocabulary test at the beginning of Latin 3.  He made a monster list of vocab, then used the stars and combine sets function to focus on where he really needed to work.  

[Caraway]

Our local public high school labels second-year Latin and up as "Honors". I was surprised by that since I've never seen foreign language classes labeled as honors before, but it makes sense from a difficulty standpoint. 

 

 

Our local tutor took one look at where my son (Lukeion 2a) was in Wheelock's and said that her private school students were in the exact same spot.  Except they were THIRD year HONORS students.  I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cry.   :huh: