One girl didn't get a cookie ...

[Blessedfamily]

This has not been my experience at all. At children's functions, people walk up to my kids and hand them food without asking or notifying me or asking my kids anything about their diets. Fortunately, my kids know that they have to clear any food items with me before they eat them. They will also pipe up and say, "I don't eat animals" or "I am allergic to soy." That's great, and I am glad that do it, but the fact that people seem to think they can just hand out food to kids shocks me.

 

And I simply fail to agree with you on what you consider to be abuse. I think that's an issue we'll never agree on.

 

Tara

 

:iagree: Especially since in the example this was a music class. I'm sure they had no idea who was allergic to what because you don't expect food to be served in a music class, holiday or not. In a general school class I might be on the lookout, but it's still the teachers responsibility. My dd takes ballet, and they have done nothing but ballet every class. If we showed up one day and food was served I'd be caught off guard.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[Nestof3]

You know, Jedi, I get the feeling you think that any parent who does any more than step aside and let her child make every decision for herself is abusive.

 

Surely you realize that some parents feel that they are actually responsible for guiding their children in all sorts of matters, not just letting a child decide everything for herself. In fact, this principle is quite prevalent in many religions. It is actually fundamental to Christianity that the parent be the one guiding the child -- so much that one would violate her own religion if she did not.

 

It seems the only religion/path you are tolerant of is the one you practice.

 

Some could argue that your hands-off method is neglectful, but I have never seen anyone come out and state on this board that you are abusive to your child because your beliefs and values differ from theirs.

[Parabola]

I am sure you would draw the line of your child participating in a religious ritual if it were particularly disturbing to you or the general population.

 

My daughter knows that we do not celebrate holidays. She looks to us for consistency. If she were to participate she would feel guilty, but get away with it. Repeat that for a while and you end up with a child who feels no guilt, who has no lines of right and wrong.

Halloween hardly qualifies as a religious ritual that is particularly disturbing to the general population. Most ppl love it. So not really a parallel situation there.

 

You know, instead of making a deal about "we don't celebrate Halloween" when she realized it was a Halloween thing and there was not going to be any class, she could have quietly bowed out (as Chicka did before the video). Problem solved. Kid doesn't have to violate any religious convictions and mom & daughter could have gone out for tea or something. Instead of having an uncomfortable situation for all involved, it could have been a nice memory for mom & daughter. Then mom could have privately spoken with whomever was in charge (by telephone, perhaps at a later date) and requested a refund for that class.

I suspect, though, that the mom was more interested in "proving a point"

Meanie had the best solution, IMO. Everybody happy.

 

You know, Jedi, I get the feeling you think that any parent who does any more than step aside and let her child make every decision for herself is abusive.

 

Surely you realize that some parents feel that they are actually responsible for guiding their children in all sorts of matters, not just letting a child decide everything for herself. In fact, this principle is quite prevalent in many religions. It is actually fundamental to Christianity that the parent be the one guiding the child -- so much that one would violate her own religion if she did not.

 

It seems the only religion/path you are tolerant of is the one you practice.

 

Some could argue that your hands-off method is neglectful, but I have never seen anyone come out and state on this board that you are abusive to your child because your beliefs and values differ from theirs.

 

You know Nest, I'm sure Jedi doesn't just leave her kids hanging in the wind. I'm sure she's there to help in situations that warrent help. Whether or not to frost a cookie doesn't seem the kind of life lesson that a parent is necessary for.

And actually, despite your comment, what she's doing is exposing them to all sorts of different religions/paths by NOT interfering when they come across them in real life. This seems pretty tolerant to me.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

You know, Jedi, I get the feeling you think that any parent who does any more than step aside and let her child make every decision for herself is abusive.

 

Surely you realize that some parents feel that they are actually responsible for guiding their children in all sorts of matters, not just letting a child decide everything for herself. In fact, this principle is quite prevalent in many religions. It is actually fundamental to Christianity that the parent be the one guiding the child -- so much that one would violate her own religion if she did not.

 

It seems the only religion/path you are tolerant of is the one you practice.

 

Some could argue that your hands-off method is neglectful, but I have never seen anyone come out and state on this board that you are abusive to your child because your beliefs and values differ from theirs.

 

Oh PUHLEEZE. My child is a perfectly normal, healthy (physically and psychologically), and happy kid. As for my "hands off" method- I keep my child safe, I make sure she minds her manners, and I make sure she fulfills her responsibilities. My child faces consequences when she does not behave or meet her responsibilities.

 

My child is 7 years old, she is a top kid on her dance team, she is working from a 4th grade level up to a 7th grade level in all subjects. She has received many awards. She sings and acts, plays the piano, is a good cook, and is very popular.

 

I take my child to church. My child has a Bible. She is not sure how she feels about the whole "God" thing yet and that is perfectly okay. She has plenty of time in her life to make those decisions.

 

I think you need to keep your mouth shut where my child is concerned. You seriously do not to go there.

[Nestof3]

Jedi,

 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to justify how you parent your child or describe how wonderful your child is. When did I attack you as a parent or attack your child?

 

You are clearly not understanding my post.

 

But do tell me why I should keep my mouth shut concerning your child/parenting, but it's perfectly okay for you to throw around the term "abusive" regarding someone else's parenting of their child.

[Nestof3]

what she's doing is exposing them to all sorts of different religions/paths by NOT interfering when they come across them in real life. This seems pretty tolerant to me.

 

For many, religion is far more than just what is believed. It also entails what is practiced. No, I have not seen tolerance from her when the discusion of a Christian's practice is concerned.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

This has not been my experience at all. At children's functions, people walk up to my kids and hand them food without asking or notifying me or asking my kids anything about their diets. Fortunately, my kids know that they have to clear any food items with me before they eat them. They will also pipe up and say, "I don't eat animals" or "I am allergic to soy." That's great, and I am glad that do it, but the fact that people seem to think they can just hand out food to kids shocks me.

 

And I simply fail to agree with you on what you consider to be abuse. I think that's an issue we'll never agree on.

 

Tara

 

I don't consider what you are doing to your kids abuse. I think it's great they have decided not to eat animals. This is an issue my daughter has struggled with on and off for about a year now, so I can appreciate how hard it is for your children to make this decision.

 

I do think though, that making a huge deal about decorating a cookie is. I say this because any normal child is going to see it as just that- it's the ADULT that is going to put all the extra "stuff" on it that makes the child feel bad or wrong for wanting to participate in what she sees as a fun activity that is not going to hurt her or anyone else. Now, if the child was allergic to nuts, the cookie contained nuts, and the child could die if she touched the cookie and touched her mouth, that is a safety issue and is another matter altogether. Again, the child could decorate a paper plate.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

For many, religion is far more than just what is believed. It also entails what is practiced. No, I have not seen tolerance from her when the discusion of a Christian's practice is concerned.

 

Um- I am a Christian. I teach Sunday School at our church to 4th and 5th graders, am on the education committee and head of the Children's Ministry team. :confused:

Edited November 1, 2008 by Academy of Jedi Arts

[TXMomof4]

I take my child to church. My child has a Bible. She is not sure how she feels about the whole "God" thing yet and that is perfectly okay. She has plenty of time in her life to make those decisions.

 

 

 

I am *NOT* criticizing - just want to say that to some people (myself included) the whole "God" thing is the most important decision of our lives. The job I do in teaching my child about God reflects directly on my beliefs and convictions. If my child has to feel excluded from something because of that God thing, the decision will always be for the God side, not saving a child's feelings for one event.

 

We will all feel excluded/left out at some point. If your child (general you) has a great musical talent and you choose to have them at lessons 3 times a week and they can't participate in something because of that, a child will feel left out of something. That is part of life, deciding what is important to you and what you're willing to sacrifice for.

 

When I was in school, we weren't allowed to attend dances - yes, even up to high school. Did I feel left out? Yup. Do I care at all now? Nope. That one night had very little impact on my life, but my parents living according to the standards they set forth, and being consistent had a huge impact on my life.

[Haiku]

I say this because any normal child is going to see it as just that- it's the ADULT that is going to put all the extra "stuff" on it that makes the child feel bad or wrong for wanting to participate in what she sees as a fun activity that is not going to hurt her or anyone else.

 

That's one way of looking at the situation. Another is that the family as a whole has discussed their values and that the children are on board with the decisions made. I think you have set up a false dichotomy in implying that if the kid isn't making the decision completely on his or her own, then the child is being pressured and made to feel guilty under the thumb of an authoritarian parent. The link you posted shows a dysfunctional relationship. But making the leap from "My kid can't decorate the cookie because our family doesn't celebrate Halloween" to "This is a dysfunctional relationship where the parent completely dominates the kid" isn't something you can do with certainty.

 

I know we see this differently, so, in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that."

 

Tara

[Nestof3]

No, I have not seen tolerance from her when the discusion of a Christian's practice is concerned.

 

Okay, then I'll rephrase that to "when another Christian's practice is concerned" [meaning when the practice differs from her own]

 

I'm off to ride my bike.

[Blessedfamily]

 

When I was in school, we weren't allowed to attend dances - yes, even up to high school. Did I feel left out? Yup. Do I care at all now? Nope. That one night had very little impact on my life, but my parents living according to the standards they set forth, and being consistent had a huge impact on my life.

 

:iagree:This is why I never had a "herd" instinct in school. I didn't have to be included in everything and I learned from this to stick to my values and not feel bad about it. When my friends did something they knew I didn't agree with, they didn't ask me because they knew the answer would be no. When it was activities we all shared it we did just that. There was no judgement, just respect.

[Kari C in SC]

I don't quite get it because the cookie wasn't really halloween decorated. But, it is her option as her mom. I don't really care what other people do with the holidays. I am trying to understand how dressing up and going to a church festival is considered NOT celebrating Halloween. In my situation, my brother-in-law will say his family doesn't celebrate Halloween. They live next door to us. All of his kids got dressed up in costumes - the boys were Amish boys, my niece was Joe the Plumber. Then they went to my church for the festival. I dressed my kids up as a soldier and a medieval princess. We trick or treated around the neighborhood. I am not sure what the difference is with the whole "celebrating thing", but I am new to SC and this whole thing. What am I missing because I don't see the difference. The kids still dressed up in non-scary costumes, then they went out and did something out of the normal which to me means celebrating. I am not being snarky, just really trying to understand why it is okay to dress up and go to church, but not meet your neighbors and be friendly. Thanks for anyone who can explain this to me.

[mommaduck]

I also find it hysterical that someone thinks that a child only sees Christmass as decorating a tree, etc, etc. We don't celebrate the holiday. Haven't for years. We also don't make a HUGE issue out of it. But when our oldest was just 2 1/2 he started tearing ornaments off of my parents tree and insisted that it didn't belong inside...at three, he plainly stated how he saw Christmass trees to a neighbour. So much for ASSUMING how my kid may look at a "mainstream holiday". Oh, and just because something is mainstream, doesn't mean I should just let my children participate. It used to be "mainstream" to watch animals tear people apart. It used to be "mainstream" to burn midwives and watch. It used to be "mainstream" in some cultures to party and offer sacrifices much like you would see in "the lottery". Sure, it's only a cookie to YOU. To another family participating in ANY manner would be offensive.

 

 

As for being "mainstream" in America...maybe you should also consider that (1) not everyone here lives in America (2) there are various subcultures in America and (3) it depends upon where you live in America (I know MANY, MANY people that do not touch these "mainstream holidays". I also live in an area where FEW people go TnTing...I saw ONE family out and a few adult store clerks dressed up at WM...thank heavens I had only one of my middler children with me, because the Joker would have scared my 2yr old and 7mo old)

Edited November 1, 2008 by mommaduck

[Jenny in Atl]

Just wanted to add on the "setting up for exclusion" and "equals abuse" comment: If anyone set a child up for exclusion, it was the teacher by not thinking or respecting how others might feel the whole thing. I've also known other families that felt the same way by how Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, or Christmas are presented in the public school system.

 

:iagree:

This is really more of a lesson for the adults. My girls are often left out food wise due to their Celiac (can't have most grains... so no cookies, cupcakes, etc). Even when teachers are told this, rarely have any made a call to me, so I can send in food or gone the extra mile of getting something themselves.

 

I think it's a caring adult/teacher who finds out who her kids are (beliefs, diet, etc), and helps them all to feel included and welcome in their differences. Why not have a leaf cookie or something to do with Autumn instead for those who don't do Halloween?

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

We will all feel excluded/left out at some point. If your child (general you) has a great musical talent and you choose to have them at lessons 3 times a week and they can't participate in something because of that, a child will feel left out of something. That is part of life, deciding what is important to you and what you're willing to sacrifice for.

 

But see- if *I* made the choice to have my child in those lessons, and it was not my child's choice to do that it would be excluding my child because of MY desires. My child sacrifices a lot because of dance. She has to make some hard choices sometimes. But, those are HER choices.

 

They key words in what you wrote are these:

 

deciding what is important to you and what you're willing to sacrifice for.

 

I sacrifice shopping for myself as much as I'd like so we can pay for dd's dancing. I sacrifice my time to be at the studio. That's my part of the sacrifce. But just because my daughter has a talent for performing doesn't mean I am going to force her to be at the studio if that's not something SHE is willing to sacrifice for.

 

Lol on the school dance thing. I wasn't allowed to date without a chaperone until I was 16. But I never felt left out. I hated that rule, yes. The rule I hated even more was when a boy (other than a friend who was male- I had a few gay male freinds and the rule did not apply) called my house my father got out the egg timer and I had 3 minutes. However, my parents went out of their way to make sure these rules didn't interfere with my having a normal life. They helped me see ways that I COULD still fit in and obey the rules at the same time. I never felt like I had to sneak around them or that they were imposing their will on me with no recourse.

[mommaduck]

I don't quite get it because the cookie wasn't really halloween decorated. But, it is her option as her mom. I don't really care what other people do with the holidays. I am trying to understand how dressing up and going to a church festival is considered NOT celebrating Halloween. In my situation, my brother-in-law will say his family doesn't celebrate Halloween. They live next door to us. All of his kids got dressed up in costumes - the boys were Amish boys, my niece was Joe the Plumber. Then they went to my church for the festival. I dressed my kids up as a soldier and a medieval princess. We trick or treated around the neighborhood. I am not sure what the difference is with the whole "celebrating thing", but I am new to SC and this whole thing. What am I missing because I don't see the difference. The kids still dressed up in non-scary costumes, then they went out and did something out of the normal which to me means celebrating. I am not being snarky, just really trying to understand why it is okay to dress up and go to church, but not meet your neighbors and be friendly. Thanks for anyone who can explain this to me.

I don't get it either, which is why we avoid even those situations. Thankfully even our church avoids putting on such false activities.

[mommaduck]

Why not have a leaf cookie or something to do with Autumn instead for those who don't do Halloween?

 

And WHY?! does it HAVE to be done on the 31st? Seriously.

[mommaduck]

with my having a normal life.

 

Again, "normal life" is subject to each person's religious, cultural, moral interpretation ;)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

And WHY?! does it HAVE to be done on the 31st? Seriously.

 

Because this ain't Burger King and you can't always have it your way. Most of the United States consists of people who like having a fun holiday for our children to enjoy.

[Storm Bay]

1. I agree with Strider et all--if I paid for a music lesson, I want music, not a cookie decorating party. If she thinks the kids are going to be too distracted, she could do music games or something, but music games can be used for learning music if they're well chosen.

 

2. The teacher, if she was thinking of this, ought to have checked with all of the parents (but not within their dc's hearing) first, since they paid for music lessons (I am a music teacher, so I know both sides of this.)

 

3. She should have considered food allergies and sensitivities--we have this, and it's too much temptation for young children to decorate something so tasty that they can't eat. Since it's so much more out in the open, people ought to be aware that this can be an issue. I have kids like this and have paid the price for people's carelessness more than once. Perhaps the person hosting this out of the blue would like to listen to my dd scream on and off for 3-4 hours in her sleep while she's trying to sleep because she managed to eat something with corn syrup you offered at a group activity and I missed it because I'm trying to watch all three of my sensitive dc who are in 3 different places in the room. (yes, I get pretty riled when it messes up our sleep patterns this much).

 

3. I loathe Halloween, but my dh doesn't, so we've grown up with compromise from the get-go. I don't see it as a religious holiday, but it's all about candy, most of which is total junk, and thing I think are very negative, such as ghosts (I don't believe in them, but they can be scarey), goblins, monsters, etc.

 

I do not think it's abusive to keep a child from activities that go strongly against what you believe, particularly when they are little. No matter how carefully taught, kids who want to question will question when they're teens or older, which is why you see people leave Hutterite colonies & Amish communities, etc., and the Hutterites live even more separately than the Amish. We don't live separately, but we teach what we believe to be true.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Karin

[bumbledeb]

I would be surprised if I was taking my child to a music class and found there was to be a Halloween activity that I had not been notified about at least a week in advance.

 

I'd possibly be a little flustered and make a less-than-ideal decision about how to handle the situation.

 

Perhaps I'd have a whispered conference with my child about what to do and we'd come up with the idea of her saying "I don't celebrate Halloween" when her turn came.

 

Perhaps we'd both feel bad about the situation afterwards and we'd discuss how better to handle such situations in future.

 

Perhaps we'd buy some cookie decorating supplies on the way back home and decorate and eat dozens of cookies the next day.

 

We'd almost certainly have a light discussion on the way home, (if we'd forgotten to do that so far this year) about Halloween and why we choose not to participate in this particular holiday.

 

I would, I hope, remember to check in advance in future about activities that may come up around the times of various holidays.

 

Would any of the above be abusive to my child, in anyone's opinion?

[mommaduck]

Because this ain't Burger King and you can't always have it your way. Most of the United States consists of people who like having a fun holiday for our children to enjoy.

And many of us have fun with our children in many other ways throughout the year...we don't need a "holiday" to do it :)

 

Holiday, means Holy Day. It's something we take seriously. In fact, to take it flippantly as many do, is an insult both to one's own faith and to those whose faith does take it seriously IMO.

 

If nothing else, many of us that DON'T celebrate these holidays find community with others that are like minded. It's kind of like that video "I eat Chinese on Christmass" ;)

[TXMomof4]

Here's the thing, I do think it was a little bit of overkill on the cookie thing.

 

But saying that religious decisions should be your child's choice at the age of 7/8/9 is giving your child a whole lot of latitude in deciding what's ok for themselves. As I said before, the most important rule my parents taught me was that they were consistent in their beliefs and were willing to sacrifice for them. They made those decisions for me at times and yes, I did resent it at times. But in the grander scheme, I see the benefit of that. I think we overestimate the power of individual events on a childs well-being .

[mommaduck]

Because this ain't Burger King and you can't always have it your way. Most of the United States consists of people who like having a fun holiday for our children to enjoy.

 

And you see, we don't care what the "rest of America" does (and this thread should show you that not "All of America" does these things). We're not lemmings. We don't do something just because others do it. If I lived in a Muslim country, I still wouldn't participate in Ramadan...wow, because I'm not Muslim :rolleyes:

 

Personally, the mama should have just left the gathering and taken her child out to eat. But perhaps she was hoping there would still actually be a MUSIC LESSON, since that's what she paid for.

[Jenny in Florida]

the mother put her OWN needs above that of the child.

 

If the kids are choosing for THEMSELVES not to eat certain things, or are choosing to believe certain things, that is one thing. However, when the parent makes the choice for the child, and the child has no other choice BUT to be excluded, that's abuse IMO.

 

Well, I don't agree.

 

And, for what it's worth, nor does either of my children.

 

In fact, I was just chatting with my daughter. As I think I've mentioned on the boards, my kids don't trick or treat, because they wouldn't be allowed to eat any of the candy they collected. The closest they've come to traditional trick or treating is at our church party, where the kids trick or treat by walking around the religious education complex courtyard and collecting stuff from adult volunteers at each door. Because that is a controlled environment, I voluneered years ago to make sure there are non-candy treats available for the kids who want/need them. (Please don't even ask how much that costs us every year.)

 

Anyway, my daughter went out trick or treating last night with a group of her dorm-mates. She had wanted to collect for Unicef, but couldn't lay her hands on a box. So, she collected candy and then gave it away to friends. When she called me this morning, the first words out of her mouth were: You know? I don't really get trick or treating.

 

Because I'd been reading this conversation, I took that as an opening to discuss how she felt about being "excluded" from various things all those years. She laughed and said she didn't think she'd missed anything.

 

Then, without prodding, she told me that she believes that a parent has not only a right but a responsibility to pass on their values.

 

So, it doesn't sound like she suffered too much from all that abuse.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

But saying that religious decisions should be your child's choice at the age of 7/8/9 is giving your child a whole lot of latitude in deciding what's ok for themselves.

 

So we should force kids at that age to be "saved" or whatever, even if they don't fully understand what it is they are doing yet? It's okay to be "saved" just to appease adults? Is that real salvation?

 

Why shouldn't my child have a whole lot of latitude to explore her faith? At what age are children actually people with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires?

[Storm Bay]

So we should force kids at that age to be "saved" or whatever, even if they don't fully understand what it is they are doing yet? It's okay to be "saved" just to appease adults? Is that real salvation?

 

Why shouldn't my child have a whole lot of latitude to explore her faith? At what age are children actually people with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires?

 

We teach our children our beliefs, which are Biblically based. However, the Bible says nothing about forcing them to be "saved," so we woudn't dream of it. We don't force our children to memorize scripture if they don't want to, but we teach it to them. fwiw, I question everything as do my dc, so I don't expect them to grow up believing anything just because I taught it to them. But since I take the Bible as my standard and it clearly admonishes me to teach it to my children, I would be a hyporcrite if I didn't.

 

What it NEVER teaches is to force children to be saved. fwiw, we don't do altar calls, and they are something I've never been comfortable with because it seems to me that there's a lot of peer pressure involved. Plus, I haven't seen it in the Bible, but I don't criticize or condemn people that do that anymore than I criticize you because you teach your children what you genuinely believe to be right.

 

I do criticize people who beat their children or who emotionally abuse them. I also would criticize any religion that teaches it's okay to abuse their children or who mistranslates and/or mishandles scripture to say it's okay. If it were okay to beat children in the OT we'd hear more of Jewish orthodox people beating their children based on Proverbs, but we don't because it's not.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Karin

[Jenny in Florida]

However, my parents went out of their way to make sure these rules didn't interfere with my having a normal life. They helped me see ways that I COULD still fit in and obey the rules at the same time. I never felt like I had to sneak around them or that they were imposing their will on me with no recourse.

 

Which is exactly how I--and I would venture to guess, most of the caring, thoughtful parents having this discussion--handle our own non-mainstream parenting choices.

 

By the way, my kid wouldn't have been allowed to decorate the cookie, either. Even if she/he didn't eat it, she/he would have participated in a way that would have used up the supplies. Even if it was someone else's money that purchased them, we would not be okay with indirectly supporting the production and marketing of those items.

 

Because we have no problem with Halloween, if there had been an option to decorate a paper plate or something similar with non-food items, that would have been fine. But we wouldn't have gone near the cookie.

 

Now, I wil say that I would have handled the situation a bit differently. I suspect I would have taken my child aside and talked to him/her quietly about the problem, then approached the teacher and, again quietly and politely, tried to get a feeling for whether there were other things happening later that would make it worthwhile for us to stick around. (For example, my kid might well have wanted to watch the movie, which would have made it reasonable to sit out the cookie part but hang around.) If so, I'd probably ask my kid what he/she wanted to do, offering to take him/her out of the classroom and come back for the movie, possibly.

 

But, no, I wouldn't have allowed the cookie.

 

And, if I had known in advance that cookie decorating was going to be part of the class, I probably would have brought my kiddo his/her own cookie and decorating goodies. (In fact, I have done that very thing in similar situations.) I might even have offered to bake cookies for the class, if the teacher seemed open to it.

 

In general, I have no problem with my kids seeing/participating in various religious events. But that's probably in part because my own religious beliefs support that. (We're Unitarian Universalists.) However, I would not expose my child to a religious event or ritual that directly conflicted with our own values or beliefs. For example, an animal sacrifice, even if it were part of a sacred ritual, is not something we're going to stick around and watch. Nor would I want them to commemorate it or act it out with any kind of alternate activity, such as chopping up a picture of an animal.

 

And I kind of have to wonder what "recourse" you had with regard to your parents' rules? And how that is different from what you seem to think is happening with the rest of us?

[mommaduck]

So we should force kids at that age to be "saved" or whatever, even if they don't fully understand what it is they are doing yet? It's okay to be "saved" just to appease adults? Is that real salvation?

 

Why shouldn't my child have a whole lot of latitude to explore her faith? At what age are children actually people with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires?

I don't force my children to "get saved" or "be saved". I do explain that this is a convenanted household and even acknowledge that some of them may end up not agreeing with us on everything regarding faith by the time they are grown. However, in this house we are the parents and we have a responsibility for the actions of our family. There are some things we don't participate in...some are purely religious issues, some are moral issues, etc. We are are the responsible adults. The children don't have to agree. However, we explain to them our reasons for why we do things the way we do...just as a Jewish child asks "why is this night special" or grows up knowing they don't eat some things that their friends might.

 

Sure I missed out on some things growing up...I THANK my parents now for their concern over my well-being, whether it was my physical, emotional, or spiritual well-being, they CARED enough to set certain boundaries.

[Jenny in Florida]

Again, "normal life" is subject to each person's religious, cultural, moral interpretation ;)

 

To quote from one of my kids' favorite movies (Halloweentown II, for those who care): Being normal is vastly over-rated.

[mommaduck]

To quote from one of my kids' favorite movies (Halloweentown II, for those who care): Being normal is vastly over-rated.

:lol:

[Jenny in Florida]

I would be surprised if I was taking my child to a music class and found there was to be a Halloween activity that I had not been notified about at least a week in advance.

 

I'd possibly be a little flustered and make a less-than-ideal decision about how to handle the situation.

 

Perhaps I'd have a whispered conference with my child about what to do and we'd come up with the idea of her saying "I don't celebrate Halloween" when her turn came.

 

Perhaps we'd both feel bad about the situation afterwards and we'd discuss how better to handle such situations in future.

 

Perhaps we'd buy some cookie decorating supplies on the way back home and decorate and eat dozens of cookies the next day.

 

We'd almost certainly have a light discussion on the way home, (if we'd forgotten to do that so far this year) about Halloween and why we choose not to participate in this particular holiday.

 

I would, I hope, remember to check in advance in future about activities that may come up around the times of various holidays.

 

Would any of the above be abusive to my child, in anyone's opinion?

 

Nope. It sounds like a very good, thoughtful, responsible way to go.

[Scarlett]

So we should force kids at that age to be "saved" or whatever, even if they don't fully understand what it is they are doing yet? It's okay to be "saved" just to appease adults? Is that real salvation?

 

Why shouldn't my child have a whole lot of latitude to explore her faith? At what age are children actually people with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires?

 

You hold a 2 yo's hand when you cross the street even though she doesn't really understand the dangers of being hit by a car. It is the same with teaching values and religion and faith. I believe we are expected and commanded to lead our children to worship God the way God wants to be worshipped. So what else would dh and I be teaching our ds except what we believe?

 

I'm sure you have of value of one kind or another that you have 'imposed' upon your child. Such as the one where you think it is ok for kids to decide important matters for themselves at a young age.

 

I do believe my ds8 is old enough to decide some things for himself. He picked out his shoes yesterday. He decided he wanted long socks instead of short. He decided he wanted to wear jeans today instead of shorts. He decides (not very often :)) not eating his vegetables is worth losing out on dessert. He wants to do LA before math some days--and I allow that...the list goes on.

 

Then there is another list that he WANTS to decide for himself, but I say, 'not yet.' He wants to ride in the front seat. He wants to stay up until midnight everynight. He wants to skip his shower. He wants to play on the computer for 3 hours straight. That list goes on as well.

 

As he grows, he gets to make more and more decisions. And eventually, I've raised a child who is wise and moral and upright. It is possible that he will, as an adult, turn aside from all that I consider important and holy. That would be very very sad for me. However, if that happens, it won't happen as a result of ME not doing MY job as a parent.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Scarlett
For Clarity.

[Natalieclare]

So we should force kids at that age to be "saved" or whatever, even if they don't fully understand what it is they are doing yet? It's okay to be "saved" just to appease adults? Is that real salvation?

 

Why shouldn't my child have a whole lot of latitude to explore her faith? At what age are children actually people with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires?

 

Well, I think salvation is a totally different issue from "the way we do things". I can't make my kids choose God. I've never tried. But we have consistently shown them and discussed "family standards". It is not abusive to have a family standard and stick to it, even against the flow of the mainstream.

[Harriet Vane]

Normally I'm right there with ya, Jedi, but I think you crossed the line here. Abuse is a very strong word and I think you're tossing it out way too lightly. Calling religious or family values abuse because a kid doesn't get to have a cookie (or something equally inconsequential) trivializes actual abuse.

 

I also think it's reasonable to assume that many kids don't mind being different because their beliefs are important to them. My kids are young but they will tell people in detail exactly why they eat and believe as they do, and they take pride in it. Just because we "exlude" ourselves from certain things doesn't mean that we are missing out.

 

Anyway, what annoys me is the fact that the people who run children's activities feel the need to feed kids. We are vegan AND we have some food allergies to watch out for, so my kids don't eat at functions outside the house (unless a friend or family who knows us and plans appropriately is the host) unless we take our own food. IMO, handing out food at kids' events is a big no-no. There are lots of food allergies and dietary choices out there, and it's ridiculous to assume that every kid is going to be able to eat a certain snack.

 

I took my kids to a local story time a few times and I had to stop going because they kept handing out food. At a library!! Everything they handed out had milk in it ... aside from the fact that we are vegan, one of my kids is allergic to milk! Grrr!

 

I agree that if I am paying for the class, I want the time spent on the class. At the very least, families should be warned ahead of time so that they can have the option of paying a reduced fee and opting out of the holiday activity.

 

Tara

 

Well said on all points.

 

:iagree:

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Well, I think salvation is a totally different issue from "the way we do things". I can't make my kids choose God. I've never tried. But we have consistently shown them and discussed "family standards". It is not abusive to have a family standard and stick to it, even against the flow of the mainstream.

 

But when you cast aside all reason and common sense- in this case it is a COOKIE- that is where things cross the line. It only becomes "evil" in the eyes of the child if the parents make it evil.

 

ITA it is not abusive to have a family standard against the flow of the mainstream. I face that myself in certain areas. However, when the child is set up to be excluded- when the parent knows good and well she can sit the child down and have her paint a cross on paper when all the other kids are having fun- it just robs the child of the opportunity to be a child and forces that child to take responsibility for the feelings of the parent, which IMHO is emotional abuse.

[Harriet Vane]

This has not been my experience at all. At children's functions, people walk up to my kids and hand them food without asking or notifying me or asking my kids anything about their diets. Fortunately, my kids know that they have to clear any food items with me before they eat them. They will also pipe up and say, "I don't eat animals" or "I am allergic to soy." That's great, and I am glad that do it, but the fact that people seem to think they can just hand out food to kids shocks me.

 

And I simply fail to agree with you on what you consider to be abuse. I think that's an issue we'll never agree on.

 

Tara

 

I have to agree with you again. My son cannot have dairy. The last time he had an accidental exposure to milk (candied popcorn at a friend's house) he had a BAD stomachache for two days. He really, really cannot have even a little bit.

 

YES--people give out food to my kids without asking. Both strangers and those who should know better. Even those that know of his restrictions just don't take it seriously enough. I have to rely specifically on (1) myself to be proactive in scoping these situations out, in warning friends or Sunday School teachers or whomever NOT to give my son food or (2) my son, who is really great about refusing food and telling people he is lactose intolerant.

[KarenNC]

Why shouldn't my child have a whole lot of latitude to explore her faith? At what age are children actually people with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires?

 

Your child may have as much latitude as you desire to give her, but you don't get to decide that range for everyone else any more than that mother gets to make that decision for you. That's the point.

 

Why do you make the assumption that the child in question *doesn't* have any latitude to explore her faith in a way appropriate to her developmental level (and never will) because her mother said she couldn't decorate a cookie that specific day? Or that mine does not because when she was 5 I said I could live with her singing Jingle Bells but not songs saying basically "Jesus is my personal Savior and ought to be yours, too, because you're ****ed for eternity if he isn't" in a group that was supposed to be specifically non-religious and we are not only non-Christian but actively something else, so we bowed out?

 

No, I don't think letting a child decorate a cookie of any shape is going to make or break their entire lives, but it's not my child. There are plenty of folks who don't think lots of the things I don't allow my child to do (religiously or not) would be that big a deal, either. I'm sure there are folks who would say that it probably wouldn't make or break the Orthodox Jewish child to eat ham and shrimp salad or a cheeseburger if it were served just because it smelled good and someone else thought they might feel excluded if they didn't eat it. Also, I can assure you that folks who, for whatever reason, do not celebrate mainstream American holidays are *very* aware of what the majority does on those days (and for months surrounding it).

 

Children are people with their own thoughts, feelings and desires from birth. That doesn't make them people with mature enough judgment to understand fully the ramifications of *acting* on all those thoughts, feelings and desires. Parents are (hopefully) people with the job of teaching them how and when one can or should act on one's thoughts, feelings and desires. I work to guide my child religiously for the same reasons I didn't throw open all the doors to the house when she was a year old and let her decide for herself if she wanted to go play in the street if she felt so inclined so that she would not be "dominated".

 

You are painting this in very black and white, all or nothing terms when almost every situation is some shade of gray.

[Blessedfamily]

But when you cast aside all reason and common sense- in this case it is a COOKIE- that is where things cross the line. It only becomes "evil" in the eyes of the child if the parents make it evil.

 

ITA it is not abusive to have a family standard against the flow of the mainstream. I face that myself in certain areas. However, when the child is set up to be excluded- when the parent knows good and well she can sit the child down and have her paint a cross on paper when all the other kids are having fun- it just robs the child of the opportunity to be a child and forces that child to take responsibility for the feelings of the parent, which IMHO is emotional abuse.

 

 

What about the millions of people who take their child to temple on Saturday, Mosque, Sunday school on Sunday, while the other kids on their street are "just being kids" and playing ball in the yard. By that line of reasoning those children are being deprived of play which every child loves. Every family as a whole has priorities and values that may be different from others.

 

I don't celebrate Halloween, but I wouldn't teach a child that a cookie is "evil". We simply don't celebrate it. We don't make a big deal or overreact. (Although in this case I would have let her participate and draw something non ghoulish).

 

I don't think not being allowed to decorate a cookie is not letting a child be a child.You take them home from the event, they play with their own toys, they're still being a child.

 

Everyone has structure, religious or not. Sometimes the kids participate, some times they don't. Sometimes it's in the kid's control, sometimes not. It's a part of life.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[KarenNC]

But when you cast aside all reason and common sense- in this case it is a COOKIE- that is where things cross the line. It only becomes "evil" in the eyes of the child if the parents make it evil.

 

You're right---it's a COOKIE. Not the only cookie in the universe, not the only time that child can ever decorate a cookie, be a child, participate in activities with others, have fun, be exposed to other cultures or faiths. Not the only glimmer of joy or childhood that this child will receive in her sad, pathetic life of abject desperation because otherwise her parents keep her locked in a windowless cell and feed her nothing but gruel and water and will only let her out once she becomes an adult totally unprepared to speak to another human being. Being allowed to decorate this one cookie won't make her popular, clear up her skin, give purpose and meaning to her life or allow her to ultimately win the Nobel Peace Prize. It's ONE COOKIE.

 

A heck of a lot of assumptions seem to be being made about this family's life and intentions based on one cookie. Goodness knows what assumptions are made about me because someone may overhear in the toy section of Target that we don't buy Bratz dolls, I don't care how many of her friends have one!;)

 

There's a difference in casting something as "evil" and saying "we don't do things this way in our family". I didn't see in the OP that the mother read a lecture to all the other families on the evils of Halloween, forced them all to read Jack Chick tracts, demanded that none of the other children decorate evil cookies or anything of the sort. The activity was, from the post, pretty clearly delineated by the teacher as a specifically Halloween celebration, not just random cookie decorating, and the mom said we don't celebrate that. I agree that there was likely a more graceful way she could have handled it, but all of us have days like that. I certainly don't feel compelled to allow my child to participate in any and every experience that comes down the pike lest someone else look at her and think she is in some way "deprived".

Edited November 1, 2008 by KarenNC

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I said I could live with her singing Jingle Bells but not songs saying basically "Jesus is my personal Savior and ought to be yours, too, because you're ****ed for eternity if he isn't" in a group that was supposed to be specifically non-religious and we are not only non-Christian but actively something else, so we bowed out?.

 

I have never heard this Christmas song. What is it called? That's terrible!!!!

 

Children are people with their own thoughts, feelings and desires from birth. That doesn't make them people with mature enough judgment to understand fully the ramifications of *acting* on all those thoughts, feelings and desires. Parents are (hopefully) people with the job of teaching them how and when one can or should act on one's thoughts, feelings and desires. I work to guide my child religiously for the same reasons I didn't throw open all the doors to the house when she was a year old and let her decide for herself if she wanted to go play in the street if she felt so inclined so that she would not be "dominated".

Ah, let us not muddy the waters here. We aren't talking about the child's safety. We are talking about THIS parent in THIS situation. We are talking about a class activity designed to be a fun and innocent way for children to celebrate a holiday designed for children that most children in American celebrate. This parent could have kept her child included in the activity while still maintaining whatever religious standards- like I said the child could draw a cross on a piece of paper. If the parent has such drastic beliefs why is the child in the class at all- unless mom didn't "read the memo"? I guess we could give the mom the benefit of the doubt in not realizing most classes have special activities around the holidays.

 

As for me, and for my friends who have lifestyle choices outside the mainstream, we explain to our children that they might not be able to participate in some things the exact same way as everyone else, but there is still room for them to be CHILDREN and even though we might have to do things a little differently, they are not subjected to being led into a class where children are doing a fun activity and being totally excluded from that activity altogether. THAT's what I call going overboard on black and white.

 

And we are talking about throwing away common sense here. Someone having a religion or other personal belief (even if it's just being a heath nut) that prevents them from eating certain foods is a far cry from being shocked at the fact you show up to a children's class on a children's holiday and kids are doing fun and childish activities.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Academy of Jedi Arts

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

What about the millions of people who take their child to temple on Saturday, Mosque, Sunday school on Sunday, while the other kids on their street are "just being kids" and playing ball in the yard. By that line of reasoning those children are being deprived of play which every child loves. Every family as a whole has priorities and values that may be different from others.

 

Bad example. What I'm talking about is taking your child out into the street where the other kids are playing, then telling him he can't play for reasons his young mind can not possibly understand.

[Blessedfamily]

Bad example. What I'm talking about is taking your child out into the street where the other kids are playing, then telling him he can't play for reasons his young mind can not possibly understand.

Not bad example. The reason the child can't play is because "we go to church on whatever day". That's something a child can understand and so is not celebrating halloween. The mother didn't take her kids to the class knowing there would be halloween celebrations and then tell the child not.(That would be the equivalent to taking the child into the street and not allowing her to play) She was expecting music which is what she paid for.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Not bad example. The reason the child can't play is because "we go to church on whatever day" The mother didn't take her kids to the class knowing there would be halloween celebrations and then tell the child not. She was expecting music which is what she paid for.

 

Well then the mom needs to "read the memo" because I have never signed my daughter up for anything where they didn't do some sort of something for any of the mainstream holidays- even if it's just giving out themed stickers.

[Blessedfamily]

Well then the mom needs to "read the memo" because I have never signed my daughter up for anything where they didn't do some sort of something for any of the mainstream holidays- even if it's just giving out themed stickers.

 

I've already stated my dd's ballet class has never done this. Even if they did, I've also already stated, as have others, that it's the teacher who needs to read the memo.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I've already stated my dd's ballet class has never done this. Even if they did, I've also already stated, as have others, that it's the teacher who needs to read the memo.

 

And like I said, I as a teacher can only do so much if the parent shows up with the child the day of and expects me to work magic. I will find SOME way to keep the kid included but I can do much better when the parent includes such info on the registration form or talks to me beforehand. I plan my classes for an entire group of children, not just one child. I would never agree to not do a class activity for a holiday just because one parent objected. I would instead work with that parent to keep their child included and it is always the parent's option to keep their child home that day (without of course making a big deal about it to the child - I have a friend who is a single by choice parent and she always makes other plans for Father's Day) so they wouldn't feel excluded.

 

My dd's ballet class did a special dance to the Monster Mash that they had worked on for the last 3 weeks. It incorporated all the things they have been working on thus far. The students can also dress in costume the week of Halloween. The staff always keeps extra costumes from recital for the little bitty ones because there is always that one little kid whose mom forgets and is the only one without.

[Blessedfamily]

And like I said, I as a teacher can only do so much if the parent shows up with the child the day of and expects me to work magic. I will find SOME way to keep the kid included but I can do much better when the parent includes such info on the registration form or talks to me beforehand. I plan my classes for an entire group of children, not just one child. I would never agree to not do a class activity for a holiday just because one parent objected. I would instead work with that parent to keep their child included and it is always the parent's option to keep their child home that day (without of course making a big deal about it to the child - I have a friend who is a single by choice parent and she always makes other plans for Father's Day) so they wouldn't feel excluded.

 

My dd's ballet class did a special dance to the Monster Mash that they had worked on for the last 3 weeks. It incorporated all the things they have been working on thus far. The students can also dress in costume the week of Halloween. The staff always keeps extra costumes from recital for the little bitty ones because there is always that one little kid whose mom forgets and is the only one without.

 

I think it's obvious we disagree and no revalations will be made here. I don't object to parents having different views but I will certainly not call them "abuse" unless it is really abuse. I don't have the right to set standards for other people and I certainly don't tell other families how a cetain day "should" or "should not be seen". That's my view, you have yours. To discuss this further is fruitless, so I won't.

[KarenNC]

I have never heard this Christmas song. What is it called? That's terrible!!!!

 

"God rest ye merry, gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, for Jesus Christ our Saviour was born on Christmas Day, to save us all from Satan's power when we were gone astray, oh tidings of comfort and joy, comfort and joy, oh tidings of comfort and joy."

 

That's one example. A nice tune, traditional song, wouldn't mind her singing it possibly even now when she's capable of understanding that one can sing something like acting in a play. Not at age 5 when she was still having trouble figuring out how we fit in with the dominant religious culture and understanding who we were religiously as a family.

 

If the parent has such drastic beliefs why is the child in the class at all- unless mom didn't "read the memo"? I guess we could give the mom the benefit of the doubt in not realizing most classes have special activities around the holidays.

 

There appears to have been no "memo". As many folks have pointed out, "most" classes do not have Halloween activities in place of regularly scheduled activities without announcing them ahead of time. This one appears to have been unannounced. OP said "So, we were just at our kids' group music lessons and the teachers basically canceled the lesson and handed out cookies to frost and decorate." The child was in the class to learn music, presumably the music that was on the syllabus. If a Halloween party/activity unrelated to the syllabus was not announced in advance, I see no reason to expect that that would be what would happen.

 

There's a huge difference in putting your child knowingly into a situation then making a big deal because they did what they said they were going to do or could reasonably been expected to do and having the situation changed midstream without announcement. There are myriad reasons why this can backfire, as it did in this situation.

 

Take our situation with the Christmas caroling. We did not go into a church group and make a fuss over the fact that they wanted to sing very confessionally Christian songs at Christmas. We specifically joined a non-religious group that is state-funded and by its own bylaws is not religious. The leader knew very well that we were non-Christian because she and I had specifically discussed several times that that was the reason we had joined this group rather than something else. When the idea for Christmas caroling as a service project came up, I expressed to her my feelings on the ways in which music could be chosen in order to let us participate. At the last minute, we were presented with a program that was 90% very confessionally Christian songs of the "I am a believer in Jesus as my personal Savior" type.

 

I really felt blindsided. It wasn't done with ill intent on the part of the leader. She honestly was just looking it at it as music and truly couldn't understand why anyone might object to traditional Christmas songs. We had a long conversation about it later on the perspective of someone trying to raise a child in a way somewhat different than the dominant culture and she thanked me for opening her eyes to a different viewpoint about what it means to be truly and actively "inclusive". It's a lot more than just doing what everyone else does and expecting that the kid who is different can just do something else that is very obviously different or not participate.

 

Why do you think that having the child in question "draw crosses on a piece of paper" would exclude her any less from the activity of decorating and eating cookies or make her feel any less different and singled out than her mother not having her participate in the decorating at all?

[TXMomof4]

So we should force kids at that age to be "saved" or whatever, even if they don't fully understand what it is they are doing yet? It's okay to be "saved" just to appease adults? Is that real salvation?

 

Why shouldn't my child have a whole lot of latitude to explore her faith? At what age are children actually people with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires?

 

No, and in fact in my particular denomination there isn't a specific age at which a child is baptized. The child makes the decision once they reach an age of understanding their relationship to God and feel the need for repentance and forgiveness. For some children that may be as early as 8. Far more children wait until they are 10-13, when they have an understanding of what it is they're actually saying and doing. I think there is a real reason why 13 is the age for Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah.

 

I think we're just coming at this from wildly different viewpoints. My goal is to raise Godly, Christian children. I don't think it would be serving that goal very well to tell them, well - I believe x,y, and z are wrong, but I'm going to let you make up your own decisions. It is my job to train the child, not let the child decide what's appropriate or not.

 

Like I said, I think we're just coming at this from two completely different perspectives.