Christian Content, changes in the church, wwyd

[FaithManor]

I believe that the method for dealing with false teaching is outlined in the Bible. And it involves talking to people, including leadership, to try to work things out.

 

- said as a pastor's wife who has confronted leaders in other churches where we were serving. And no, they didn't listen. But we were then able to leave with a clear conscience.

But it is a he said, she said kind of thing. They believe they are right. They believe that it is a salvation issue. Telling them you disagree doesn't do a thing to change their belief. I have never once in my life known church leadership who value the opinions of non leadership on theological matters. Once determined their interpretation is correct or having justified extrabiblical rules in their minds, it is a done deal. Submit to authority or don't let the door hit you on the way out. It is not good to out oneself through the stress and drama if one is not already in leadership thus having an opinion that might be valued.

[Jean in Newcastle]

But it is a he said, she said kind of thing. They believe they are right. They believe that it is a salvation issue. Telling them you disagree doesn't do a thing to change their belief. I have never once in my life known church leadership who value the opinions of non leadership on theological matters. Once determined their interpretation is correct or having justified extrabiblical rules in their minds, it is a done deal. Submit to authority or don't let the door hit you on the way out. It is not good to out oneself through the stress and drama if one is not already in leadership thus having an opinion that might be valued.

Different people are going to come to different decisions about this. I have confidence in my faith and my understanding of the Bible. I can't say that I am excited when people are pigheaded about stuff like this but I have no problem sticking up for my beliefs and I have no trouble defending them. What I shared was my opinion based on what I believe is modeled in Scripture . I don't think that how you leave a church is a salvation issue. ;)

[sbgrace]

Goodness. I would have issues not just with the push on the topic, but even more on the lack of understanding of God/Christ to teach that not holding x right belief would send  a person to hell. That's not a picture of God I would want in the heads and hearts of my kids.

 

I would probably do what I could to avoid upsetting the relationships I and my kids have with church members when I left. But I can't imagine staying given what you were taught in SS. That's a toxic representation of God imo. How sad. I'm sorry.

Edited March 7, 2017 by sbgrace

[abba12]

For those recommending discussing it with leaders: have you ever personally witnessed this approach having any effect at all?

 

I ask because I have not. I left a church one time for very specific reasons. Hand delivered a letter similar to what FaithManor suggested to all persons directly effected by my resignation. Gave a complete explanation to a few friends. Neither the minister nor anyone else in leadership ever enquired as to the exact reasons.

 

Whether or not they listen is on them. The bible is pretty clear about telling a brother when they're doing something sinful, and false teaching is a big deal. They may not listen, most don't, but that doesn't matter, I have a responsibility to say something and give them the opportunity to hear biblical advice through me. I've seen one church take note of it, though not very helpfully, when another family left. Most churches don't listen. But it's not about the result, it's about the heart attitude and keeping my own conscience clear. I've done my part and they've chosen their path, and now it's between them and God. 

 

You asked about whether people would say anything if it were not a false teaching issue. If it were still an issue that I felt harmed the body of Christ, or pushed people away from God, it would depend on how long I had been in the church and whether it was a 'new' issue or how they'd always been. I spoke up to a long time church that I felt was catering to a single demographic and we felt pushed out of, but I don't go lecturing pastors in churches I've visited a couple of times and then decided not to attend.

 

If it were simply a bad fit, for example different tastes in praise and worship styles, I would likely say something casually just so they know I haven't left for any real reason, I'd let them know that it was a non-issue, and just a different fit, so they didn't get left wondering if I left for a serious reason they didn't know, since I have seen a pastor I was close to become very insecure about that in the past. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by abba12

[Saddlemomma]

We'd..Be..Gone!

 

We are what's considered weird Christians, by our own reckoning anyway.  We will never, as a family, become members of a church again.  The reason for this is that the church today, in no way, resembles the church we believe Christ envisioned.  We currently go to a Wesleyan Church because we enjoy the worship and Pastor.  However we, in no way, delude ourselves into thinking we ascribe to many of their doctrinal beliefs.  We don't subscribe to the idea of "denominations" either.  For us, it all comes down to what Jesus originally taught and how you live your life regarding those teachings. 

 

The main problem with the Church today, and the notion of denominations as whole, is that it follows more of how the Pharisees influenced the original Christians by developing rules and laws that, simply put, were not endorsed by Jesus.  Much of this problem stems from the fact that most of us can't read the Bible in its original languages or context -- that of the Ancient Israelites and the culture of that time.  Instead, we adhere to the traditions of men and keep trying to cram 2 millennial BC & early AD cultural worldviews into a 21st Century worldview.  This simply can't be done.

 

The Bible is pre-scientific.  It has absolutely nothing to say about modern science and yet we continually try to prove the Bible in light of modern science. We try to impose 21st Century meanings to ancient Hebrew and Aramaic words. Today we completely strip the Bible of its ancient roots and its supernatural elements because science has no room for the immaterial and it's uncomfortable. It's a shame because the Bible and the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia are steeped in the supernatural and ancient astrology (which is vastly different from today's astrology). God, Himself, is supernatural. To strip away these elements from the Bible is to strip it of God and leave it an empty shell ready to be filled with the nonsense of men and their plethora of rules, regulations and faulty modern interpretations.

 

In any case, now that we (as a family) are beginning to learn about the Bible in its correct ancient cultural and historical context, the Bible makes much more sense and is coming alive for us again. It's exciting! We no longer argue or share our understanding of scripture within the church unless someone specifically asks.  We'd rather commune with other believers in peace than explain, ironically, that we're not heretics because we choose to take the Bible at its word through its correct worldview and cultural context. 

 

Since we are so different in our understanding of scripture, we basically go to church for worship, fellowship within the love of Christ, and to listen to our excellent pastor.  We won't agree with him on everything, but he does a masterful job in providing a profound expose on the moral teachings of Christ which transcend time....like love your neighbor like yourselves. If, however, he was to ever start teaching a false salvation doctrine, we would leave and find another church.

 

The only absolute salvation issue is that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that He died and rose again for us to take away our sins.  That's it.  There are no other requirements.  We will still sin; we can't help ourselves; we are human; but in our frail humanity, Christ has covered us with His blood.

[Heathermomster]

We have a newish pastor..Anyhoo...about two years ago he removed the corporate confession and the reading of the Apostles Creed during worship. No one said a word, and every Sunday I kept looking around and wondering whether I had entered the Twilight Zone. After it became evident that corporately confessing and stating our beliefs was no longer being done, I wrote a letter to my pastor requesting he reinstate our corporate confession, and then I approached several elders. The new pastor was upset with me; however, I garnered elder support. DH remained at church on Sunday while I began looking at other churches just to understand better how they conducted their worship services. It took about 6 months, but corporate confession and a reading of our belief statements were quietly restored. So yes, one can positively affect change. Honestly, Pastors come and go, but the core body of a Church remains. If I were the member of a congregationalist type Church, I know for a fact that my pastor would not have changed.

 

OP, I still don't understand your issue. Are you stating that a SS teacher told your children that you were going to hell for not supporting xyz? I don't understand what you are alluding to. Does your local church expect you to be YE or support prayer in public school?

 

First, clarify what happened by following Matthew 18:15. Based upon that convo, seek council with leaders of the Church. My Church follows a denominational specific Book of Church Order and the Westminster Confession of Faith. Obviously, scripture is the authority. If the belief rules have changed for your denomination, Church leaders need to be clear. I would advise you to do these things prayerfully.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Heathermomster

[FaithManor]

Different people are going to come to different decisions about this. I have confidence in my faith and my understanding of the Bible. I can't say that I am excited when people are pigheaded about stuff like this but I have no problem sticking up for my beliefs and I have no trouble defending them. What I shared was my opinion based on what I believe is modeled in Scripture . I don't think that how you leave a church is a salvation issue. ;)

The issue at hand, accusing someone of false teaching, is pretty equivalent to calling someone a heretic. If thousands of PHD theologians world wide can't make sense of the 20,000 plus version of Christianity and create any cohesion out of it, it seems folly for lay people to try it.

 

That is not a step I would take. I mean, as crazy as I personally believe Bill Gothard is, and as about as I am sure in my soul he is, and as quiet as we all know I am NOT about the stuff he teaches,  I am not going to him and accusing him of being a heretic or an apostate. Nope. Not happening. God can handle that kind of thing.

 

I guess it would be all in how one approached it, said what you say. Calling someone a false teacher is a serious allegation. Saying that you do not personally agree with a specific interpretation could potentially be done without bringing that accusation, but it would take some fancy foot work if the leadership doesn't take kindly to being questioned because they are going to push back, and in my experience, push back hard which generally causes emotions to escalate. If you can manage that without the escalation and in the end, a grievous accusation coming out of it, then I have a lot of respect for your methodology. We've tried it and got no where except that it caused a lot of hurt feelings, hardship, stress, and such which would not have happened if we had just left of our own accord without explanation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The issue at hand, accusing someone of false teaching, is pretty equivalent to calling someone a heretic. If thousands of PHD theologians world wide can't make sense of the 20,000 plus version of Christianity and create any cohesion out of it, it seems folly for lay people to try it.

 

That is not a step I would take. I mean, as crazy as I personally believe Bill Gothard is, and as about as I am sure in my soul he is, and as quiet as we all know I am NOT about the stuff he teaches, I am not going to him and accusing him of being a heretic or an apostate. Nope. Not happening. God can handle that kind of thing.

 

I guess it would be all in how one approached it, said what you say. Calling someone a false teacher is a serious allegation. Saying that you do not personally agree with a specific interpretation could potentially be done without bringing that accusation, but it would take some fancy foot work if the leadership doesn't take kindly to being questioned because they are going to push back, and in my experience, push back hard which generally causes emotions to escalate. If you can manage that without the escalation and in the end, a grievous accusation coming out of it, then I have a lot of respect for your methodology. We've tried it and got no where except that it caused a lot of hurt feelings, hardship, stress, and such which would not have happened if we had just left of our own accord without explanation.

I think your interpreting my words in a way that I didn't mean? I never meant that I would have some kind of theological tribunal. In fact, the pattern put out there in Scripture is pretty simple. You go to your brother ( who is equal in importance in God's eyes even if they have the gift of pastor-teacher or elder) and talk to them. In this case I would ask a specific question: what do you think is necessary for salvation? If their answer is any other than faith in what Jesus Christ did on the cross, then I would tell them what I believed and why. Not in an accusatory way but standing up for what the Bible teaches. If they affirmed the gospel message without adding the OP's concern to it, I would tell them that I was glad that they had the gospel straight but I have a concern with this teaching which is not a salvation issue. If they said that they disagreed and didn't want to change, I would thank them and tell that I would be going to another church.

 

Could they be ugly about it? Sure. I had one church leader tell me that he would see me at the judgement seat of Christ for a decision I made (of all things) about my then toddler. I shrugged and told him that he was accountable to God as well. My conscience was clear. Was his? He was spitting, he was so mad. I laughed. He didn't have power over me.

 

Incidentally, we stayed at that church for over a year afterwards because we had a ministry there that we felt God still wanted us to carry out and despite legalistic elders, people were listening and being changed.

 

Not everyone was listening. The elder's wives shunned me that entire year. I got perverse joy out of greeting them cheerily and loudly for all to hear. (At home, I sometimes had worse attitudes about it all and had to pray a lot. It was not easy)

 

I'm not saying that everyone should stay in those circumstances. It was an unusual situation. But I am saying that you can quietly ask questions and state your beliefs without fear.

[FaithManor]

Okay Jean, I must have misinterpreted. It sounded to me like you might be suggesting a more formal process, with church discipline, charges made, etc. If it is just a quiet, this is what we think, and then out the door, yah, I could see that if one thinks they can handle the possible push back pretty well.

[Zinnia]

We left a church about a year ago that started preaching things we weren't comfortable with.  

 

We left fairly quietly, though we were prepared to give our reasons if they contacted us.  We were in a couple of leadership positions, had volunteered heavily in childrens' ministry, and were faithful attenders for 5 years.  

They never contacted us.  I don't know if they didn't notice that we were gone, or if they didn't care.  It still makes me wonder sometimes, but I've just accepted it as it is what it is.  But definitely odd.  

[Saddlemomma]

We left a church about a year ago that started preaching things we weren't comfortable with.  

 

We left fairly quietly, though we were prepared to give our reasons if they contacted us.  We were in a couple of leadership positions, had volunteered heavily in childrens' ministry, and were faithful attenders for 5 years.  

They never contacted us.  I don't know if they didn't notice that we were gone, or if they didn't care.  It still makes me wonder sometimes, but I've just accepted it as it is what it is.  But definitely odd.  

 

Be glad you haven't heard.  We were in the same situation as you...involved in all the things you were involved in for the same time period.  My DH was even the SS Superintendent.  We left amicably after stating our reasons for leaving to our pastor.

 

A few days later, the pastor's wife stopped by to get some files I had put together for her.  She laughed and talked with us, and then she told us, "you guys never really fit in anyway."  That shocked us.  We never voiced any disagreements we had with their doctrine up to the point when we left.  They asked us to teach and asked DH to be superintendent.  Why would they do that if "we never really fit in"? That statement just confirmed and solidified that we had made the right decision.  It also solidified our decision that we would never become members of a church again or participate in leadership roles. 

 

In the church we attend now, we are active in children's ministry through teaching and puppet ministry. The leaders don't care that we're not members. They just appreciate our help.

[BusyMom5]

OP, I think you feel that you need to leave.  Trust your feelings and do what is best for your family.   You don't need anyone else to justify your reasons, you feel them and you know it's serious.  I would be willing to bet that your kids feel pretty uncomfortable, too. 

 

I left church long ago and never care to go back, but these types of issues really bother me!  I feel like CHristianity is changing, and more things are 'salvation issues' that really shouldn't be. When churches do this, they miss the message completely.  I wouldn't contact the leadership- that opens the door for them to openly criticize you. 

[Anne in CA]

IME, this will be the tip of the iceberg, Right now it's this one thing. In another year he's going to add some other things, and a year after that it's going be go downhill so fast you'll think its an avalanche. Run. Now. His inflexibility will extend to every new notion he picks up, and he will pick them up and he will take everyone along for the ride. I had a pastor like this and it started with healing. EVERYONE could be healed all the time.On every other subject he was reasonable. But it went from healing to other things after a year, and in talking to other people that is the pattern. It's just not this one thing, no matter what you think now, and this will get messy. 

[Guest]

If they actually state it is a salvation issue, not just something that has influence over your soteriology even subconsciously in how you frame the issue? I'd leave. I'd have a formal meeting with the pastor and lay out my biblical case for the perspective I hold and why I think the Bible shows them to be in error, then I'd resign my membership and move on.

 

We have left a beloved church, and not even over a salvation issue but rather a long pattern of problem in a particular area that we could not move past after many years of prayer and trying. It hurts, but the congregation we are in now is fantastic and has been such a beautiful blessing in our lives! It's been *better* and all we hoped for was good enough.

[Garga]

 

He has introduced an issue that we disagree with (dh slightly, me strongly). They've made it a salvation issue (though it should not be), and since I disagree with their stance I'm going to hell (learned this yesterday during SS :huh: ).

 

WWYD? Continue to go for Sunday School? Stop going to Sunday School, but stay for services? Find a new church? (I almost wrote-talk to deacons, but we spoke with them prior to the change in curriculum and it was met with deaf ears. So talking to the leadership isn't going to get me anywhere.)

For what was taught in SS (that you'll go to hell for not believing X), was the teacher correct in the eyes of the pastor? Or did the SS teacher take things too far? Does the pastor need to know that the person took it too far?

 

How long will this particular topic be taught in SS? How pervasive is it? Is this something people will talk about for 3 weeks and then it won't be brought up again?

 

If the SS teacher got out of line and if this lesson won't be taught for long, I think I may just skip SS for a couple of weeks and then wait and see what else might happen. If something like this happens again, then I'd go. But if this is the only negative incident, then I'd stay.

 

If the SS teacher was NOT out of line, per the pastor, and the pastor is the one saying it's a salvation issue, then I'd have to leave.

 

Can you tell us the issue, purely out of curiousity? Or is that rude of me to ask? I'm just very curious.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Garga

[speedmom4]

We tried to stay in a church that we disagreed with for way too long for many of the same reasons you stated. I justified why it was just better to stay even when we completely disagreed with a few key points of their theology. Eventually we started studying what different denominations believed/taught and we found a Church that we could get on board with. My own faith was being seriously hurt by staying somewhere I disagreed with so strongly. Since our children were older at the time we gave them the choice to stay or go with us. Our younger two children came with us and our older two (they were 17 and 15 at the time) stayed. It was incredibly difficult at the time but now, four years later, it was the best decision we could have ever made. Having peace every Sunday has been worth all the trouble and heartache. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by speedmom4

[Katy]

We tried to stay in a church that we disagreed with for way too long for many of the same reasons you stated. I justified why it was just better to stay even when we completely disagreed with a few key points of their theology. Eventually we started studying what different denominations believed/taught and we found a Church that we could get on board with. My own faith was being seriously hurt by staying somewhere I disagreed with so strongly. Since our children were older at the time we gave them the choice to stay or go with us. Our younger two children came with us and our older two (they were 17 and 15 at the time) stayed. It was incredibly difficult at the time but now, four years later, it was the best decision we could have ever made. Having peace every Sunday has been worth all the trouble and heartache. 

 

This is a good point.  There are denomination matching quizzes on the internet that can tell you which ones are closest to your beliefs.  We took one and were surprised at what came up.

[justasque]

For what was taught in SS (that you'll go to hell for not believing X), was the teacher correct in the eyes of the pastor? Or did the SS teacher take things too far? Does the pastor need to know that the person took it too far?

 

How long will this particular topic be taught in SS? How pervasive is it? Is this something people will talk about for 3 weeks and then it won't be brought up again?

 

If the SS teacher got out of line and if this lesson won't be taught for long, I think I may just skip SS for a couple of weeks and then wait and see what else might happen. If something like this happens again, then I'd go. But if this is the only negative incident, then I'd stay.

 

If the SS teacher was NOT out of line, per the pastor, and the pastor is the one saying it's a salvation issue, then I'd have to leave.

 

Can you tell us the issue, purely out of curiousity? Or is that rude of me to ask? I'm just very curious.

 

 

Something happened to a school teacher in our congregation last year. The teacher was fired for sharing this belief in the school (separation of church and state). I feel this is in direct response to that incident. Since it can't be taught at school, they'll teach it at church. Additionally, the pastor's family has used, and liked, this curriculum before. I think it's a combination of these two events.

 

See, it sounds like the congregation member already stepped over the line by teaching the issue - one where it sounds like good Christians can have differing opinions/beliefs/interpretations - in the public school, where they apparently felt emboldened to teach it to other people's children, without permission from parents or administration, and perhaps without even knowing if the parents were Christian, let alone if they agreed with the teaching.  And the pastor's reaction to that was to have the belief taught in Sunday School, again without seeing a need to consult the parents about this change, even though the congregation is relatively small.  This does not sound like someone who is aware of, or open to, differences around this issue.   

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by justasque