Is this cheating?

[hopskipjump]

First, clarification - this is NOT my dd. :laugh:  But, listening in and talking with dd and some of her local friends who also just started college this year... they have seen some creative things going on and have had some stories to tell! I'm curious about these two scenarios specifically (there was a lot of lively debate about these and other events amongst the kids... lots of talk about what the professors "intentionally" don't say in order to give the students some wiggle room... it was interesting to hear their rationalizations and defenses).

 

Scenario #1:

 

Professor in a class says "you can use your phone" during the final. In HIS mind/previous context, he is speaking specifically about using the calculator app on your phone, but he does not SAY this, exactly.

 

Students "freely interpret" his words and literally "use their phones" during the final.

 

Cheating, or no?

 

Scenario #2:

 

Professor says in class that the students can "work together" to study for a test and encourages them to create a group study guide and to take the test (online) together. Test is open-book and open study-guide. (Professor was attempting to give them a "grade booster" due to most of the class bombing the previous test given in class a couple weeks before)

 

Students do so, working through the test together, all answering the same. Student #1 submits her test first, which is automatically graded and she's given the corrected answers. Remaining students in group are told the correct answers by Student #1 and all turn in perfect scores on their test. (Student #1s test score was in the low 90s, so she says that everyone owes her a Starbucks for the favor...)

 

Cheating, or no?

[creekland]

Scene Two - yes.  I doubt the Prof thought about that possibility.

 

Scene One - not necessarily.  Some tests always used to be open book and "open phone" now is practically the same thing.  The idea with this is often that real life is open book - we do look things up if we need to, or at least we should.  One consideration though... if one really needs to look things up (rather than just a detail or two), they often won't have time to finish the test.  It's generally expected that the student knows the main points and if anything, just needs a detail or two.  I wouldn't walk into an open book test knowing absolutely nothing and expect to do well in a 2-3 hour time period.

[regentrude]

I am a college professor. Neither of the incidents would be considered cheating. Cheating is the use of unauthorized forms of assistance/materials.

 

1. A professor who explicitly allows the use of the phone must expect students to use it in other ways than the calculator app. If the instructor wanted to prohibit internet use or communication among students, he should not have allowed use of phones and insisted on regular calculators - or should have designed the exam so it can be worked without calculators (which is what I am doing in my class, because it is not feasible nowadays to monitor the use of any electronic devices to restrict it to a particular functionality.)

 

2. Any professor who allows an open book/open notes test AND on top of it encourages students to work in groups taking the test is fully aware that this is precisely what is going to happen. 

The professor could easily have set the test options so that the correct/incorrect answers are not shown to the students, to avoid one student sacrificing herself and everybody else getting a perfect. Looks to me like this was the intended outcome - unless the instructor is not particularly smart.

 

Both incidents show questionable judgment on the professor's part - unless  the sole intent of the assignment is to boost grades.

Edited December 15, 2016 by regentrude

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't see it as cheating.  I don't 100% understand the second scenario though.  It sounds like they took the on-line test together?  Is that what they did? That might be cheating, but I don't know if I understand it correctly.

 

 

[regentrude]

I don't see it as cheating.  I don't 100% understand the second scenario though.  It sounds like they took the on-line test together?  Is that what they did? That might be cheating, but I don't know if I understand it correctly.

 

From what OP writes:

Prof had told them to take the online test together. But what they did was: the first student "sacrificed" herself by trying the test. The prof had set the test options so that the incorrect/correct answers are shown once a student takes the test. All the remaining students then know what the answers are and got a 100%.

 

Totally the prof's fault. For showing the answers, and for giving the same online test to every student.

 

ETA: That's how students usually deal with online homework systems. They work in groups and take turns being the sacrificial lamb.

Edited December 15, 2016 by regentrude

[creekland]

From what OP writes:

Prof had told them to take the online test together. But what they did was: the first student "sacrificed" herself by trying the test. The prof had set the test options so that the incorrect/correct answers are shown once a student takes the test. All the remaining students then know what the answers are and got a 100%.

 

Totally the prof's fault. For showing the answers, and for giving the same online test to every student.

 

ETA: That's how students usually deal with online homework systems. They work in groups and take turns being the sacrificial lamb.

 

You've got a good point here.  The prof probably was doing it to boost grades not really caring about individual knowledge.

[kiana]

Agree with regentrude. In a pedagogical sense the second scenario especially gives me the willies. But I don't think either of them would really fly as "cheating". 

[MarkT]

scenario 2 seems diceyfor the school ( I believe the instructor got his/her desired result) - back in my dinosaur days this could have happened if one student had to take a test early and then shared it with other students which definitely would have been cheating

[Guest]

My personal code of ethics tells me both these scenarios are cheating. However, technically, in this day and age, practically anything goes, so I doubt either are considered cheating these days.

[coralloyd]

All I have to say is that if this is the is the way students are passing in college, I fear for the future of "professional" jobs.

[regentrude]

My personal code of ethics tells me both these scenarios are cheating. However, technically, in this day and age, practically anything goes, so I doubt either are considered cheating these days.

If the instructor specifically tells students to take the test together, scenario 2 is not cheating - not just technically, but also ethically.

[regentrude]

his could have happened if one student had to take a test early and then shared it with other students which definitely would have been cheating

 

That definitely is cheating, but the professor would be to blame for being to lazy to write an alternate version of the exam for the student.

[Guest]

If the instructor specifically tells students to take the test together, scenario 2 is not cheating - not just technically, but alsoethically.

Except they didn't take it all together; one student took it first then fed the answers to the others.

 

And I did say it violated my PERSONAL code of ethics. Many things in life are permissible; not everything is personally ethical.

[xixstar]

My personal code of ethics tells me both these scenarios are cheating. However, technically, in this day and age, practically anything goes, so I doubt either are considered cheating these days.

I am with you on this one. I believe intent matters. If you're allowed to use the calculator on your phone then that's what is allowed.

 

If you're allowed to take a test together as a group, that isn't "one of you take it and feed the answers to everyone else".

 

I can see the arguments being made to say it isn't cheating on technicalities, whatever. I would still view it as wrong. I make choices in my life that I feel are correct morally and ethically. Exploiting loop holes doesn't fly for me.

 

Would I admonish someone that cheated? Probably not. If it were my child, I would express that I don't feel that it was the right choice to make.

[xixstar]

That definitely is cheating, but the professor would be to blame for being to lazy to write an alternate version of the exam for the student.

I think this statement is very telling. It's not cheating because the professor was lazy? This would also fall in a no-go area in my book

 

 

Clarify - I meant "it would be okay to cheat because the professor is lazy?"

Edited December 15, 2016 by xixstar

[regentrude]

I think this statement is very telling. It's not cheating because the professor was lazy? This would also fall in a no-go area in my book

 

Clarify - I meant "it would be okay to cheat because the professor is lazy?"

 

There is nothing "telling" about this.

It is cheating no matter what, and not OK.

But the instructor also has responsibilities and was not using good practice. He or she has to anticipate that the early student may tell the others, and not writing a separate exam indicates that the professor does not really care. Which I consider unprofessional.

If an instructor in my department complained about students cheating in this scenario, he would be questioned why he did not anticipate and make an effort to prevent it.

 

Instructors proctor exams because otherwise some students will cheat. Nobody thinks it is OK for the instructor to not show up for proctoring and rely on student ethics - if cheating occurred in an unproctored exam, the instructor would still be at fault, even though the students were the ones committing the act.

 

Similarly, a burglar is a criminal no matter what. But leaving the front door open is not prudent on part of the home owner and puts part of the fault on the owner, which does not excuse or exonerate the criminal.

Edited December 15, 2016 by regentrude

[raptor_dad]

 

Instructors proctor exams because otherwise some students will cheat. Nobody thinks it is OK for the instructor to not show up for proctoring and rely on student ethics - if cheating occurred in an unproctored exam, the instructor would still be at fault, even though the students were the ones committing the act.

 

 

I took plenty of unproctored tests in college and have reported folks violating this trust. This is completely normal at honor code schools. I'm not naive, "recent" scandals at Harvard, Darmouth, and the Naval Academy show the problems with this approach. But, I think the legalistic approach to what is and isn't cheating has as many or more downsides, especially in the post college years.

 

Presenting someone else's work as your own is absolutely cheating. All an open book, collaborative project changes is the definition of the scope of "your own work". Any thing produced by the group is fair game. So if everyone submitted the 90%+ work as their own, fine. However taking the test early and providing others with the correct answers is cheating. Having a standin from alpha centauri take the exam for you is cheating. Hacking the system by technical or social engineering means to get the test is cheating. Copying the test answers without doing your own work is dishonest.  In the listed case I think both the first student and the others should have known they were cheating. If they had instead got the result verbatim out of the textbook, class notes, or even an old exam test bank from whatever source it would be more of a gray area. In that case there would absolutely be a moral obligation to disclose that(much like on math camp applications) and let the prof decide to ignore it or not.

[regentrude]

So if everyone submitted the 90%+ work as their own, fine. However taking the test early and providing others with the correct answers is cheating. 

 

If a professor explicitly says "take the online test together", he knows that this means students have to take the test sequentially because they all need to log on individually and cannot literally take the test together as a group. As a fellow instructor, I would interpret the statement as "cooperate to any degree you can" - i.e. do your darnedst to get a perfect because we need the grade boost.

 

If the professor had actually wanted to eliminate the above scenario, he would have chosen not to show the answers after the first submission. The fact that he did chose to show the answers and told the student not only to study, but also take the test together, to me is a clear indication that he intended the students to do exactly what they did.

 

ETA: This just underscores that it is very important to be specific and unambiguous in testing instructions, because apparently the same instructions can be interpreted differently.

Edited December 15, 2016 by regentrude

[raptor_dad]

If a professor explicitly says "take the online test together", he knows that this means students have to take the test sequentially because they all need to log on individually and cannot literally take the test together as a group. As a fellow instructor, I would interpret the statement as "cooperate to any degree you can" - i.e. do your darnedst to get a perfect because we need the grade boost.

 

If the professor had actually wanted to eliminate the above scenario, he would have chosen not to show the answers after the first submission. The fact that he did choose to show the answers and told the student not only to study, but also take the test together, to me is a clear indication that he intended the students to do exactly what they did.

 

ETA: This just underscores that it is very important to be specific and unambiguous in testing instructions, because apparently the same instructions can be interpreted differently.

 

For me, the professor's intent is not relevant. This is exactly the damaging legalistic approach I was criticizing. Training kids to exploit loopholes to cheat is *much* worse than grade inflation. Just give everyone a study guide with the exact questions on the exam. Do an open book exam with the same problems as in the text. Just curve everyone to an A. Whatever, that is a separate issue. However,encouraging folks to cheat in this particular way, normalizes it to an extent that is not morally justifiable and is unequivocally cheating in my view.

[xixstar]

I guess I can understand why you (regentrude) are being defensive of the responsibly of both parties; I was not debating the responsibility of either party beyond answering the question of whether I felt it was cheating. I had also misread your statement to imply that it was still somehow okay if it was legalistically okay. My apologies for misinterpreting.

 

Yes, instructors should take reasonable steps to discourage cheating. However, I still hold fast to upholding honor codes to act honorably. A teacher could come into a test with the answers in a folder, leave them on the desk and walk out and I still would have the same opinion that the student is responsible for their behavior (which you aren't arguing). System wide responsibility for integrity of exams is another topic that I am far less inclined to engage in.

 

Also - "take the test together" I would assume everyone has their own laptops and can indeed take the test at the same time, not that a group is gathered around a single desktop. But I can see that could be a rather erroneous assumption and is simply a reflection on my recent years in college that certainly isn't a universal experience for everyone.

[regentrude]

Yes, instructors should take reasonable steps to discourage cheating. However, I still hold fast to upholding honor codes to act honorably. A teacher could come into a test with the answers in a folder, leave them on the desk and walk out and I still would have the same opinion that the student is responsible for their behavior (which you aren't arguing).

 

Oh, absolutely. And it is my experience that the vast majority of the students would act honorably. It is precisely for the sake of those honest students that there should be safeguards against, and harsh penalties for, cheating, because it is not fair that a few should profit by their dishonesty and the honest students get lower grades because they had personal integrity. This problem is compounded in classes that curve, where the cheating students actively harm the honest ones.

 

Cheating is a huge problem. Way beyond the - in my opinion ambiguous - situations of the OP. People are taking tests under false identities, often for pay; people using cell phones to communicate with the outside; and  the latest: people hiring others to complete the entire degree work under their identity. A colleague from another university had such a case. There is a whole cheating industry that sells not only custom written term papers (this has been around forever), but actual substitutes to take the course for you.

[La Condessa]

If you aren't sure, it's immoral to do it without clarifying with the professor that it's okay.  The second example is obviously cheating, the first is dishonest too if you didn't check with the professor that it was okay.

[regentrude]

nm

 

ETA: I am scratching my head what kind of naive instructors they employ at that institution.

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by regentrude

[Garga]

The second one is cheating.  Taking the test together means they all use their laptops and sit around and discuss each question and come to an answer.  One person sending in the scores and then giving out the correct answers is flat out cheating.  It doesn't matter whether the professor wasn't savvy enough to realize they'd do that.  It's still cheating.  

 

The first one is semi-cheating.  If they were talking about calculations and the professor said, "You can use your phones," implying using the calculator (as the OP said was the implication), then pretending to be dense is cheating.  Technically the students can get away with it, but it's bad form and not doing something in good faith.

 

I have never liked people like those students.  They're selfish and manipulative and are the sorts of people that mess things up for everyone else.

[MerryAtHope]

"Legally" speaking--no. These students should not receive penalties from the instructor or school (ie, a lowered grade, flunking the class, expulsion--typical punishments for cheating). These scenarios are the professor's fault from that standpoint. 

 

Morally speaking--yes, they are cheating in one if not both situations. Scenario 1 is a bit hard to tell without the full context, but if students *knew* he meant to just use the calculator app, they should do that. If a student wasn't sure, he or she should clarify. 

 

Scenario 2--first, I've never heard of a situation where one student could get his or her test graded and returned before other students took the test. That's ridiculous! Maybe the professor was that unsure that his students could do well on his test (which is a whole other can of worms with many facets to explore...) But yes, I think that getting the answers from a graded test and giving them out is cheating (and kind of ridiculous--really, all of them together with their books open didn't get all of the right answers the first time? On what, a multiple choice computerized test?! Seriously, I think they should feel a bit embarrassed about this.) 

[regentrude]

--first, I've never heard of a situation where one student could get his or her test graded and returned before other students took the test. That's ridiculous! Maybe the professor was that unsure that his students could do well on his test (which is a whole other can of worms with many facets to explore...) But yes, I think that getting the answers from a graded test and giving them out is cheating (and kind of ridiculous--

 

The bolded easily happens with a computer administered multiple choice exam.

Whenever a student takes a computerized multiple choice test, the instructor has the options to have the computer either give no feedback, or to indicate the number of correct questions, or to indicate which questions have been answered incorrectly, or to reveal which the correct answers would have been.

If the instructor chooses the option to reveal the correct answers and also chooses to deploy an identical test to all students, the first time a student takes the test, the answer key is published. Any instructor who is using such a system (and encouraging group testing on top of it) has to be fully aware of this fact. 

 

The only way to create a meaningful test situation in unproctored online testing is to either create a different test for each student (the computer generated homework systems in math, chem and physics attempt to do that by changing the numbers, which is not exactly successful) or at the very least not to give any feedback after an answer has been submitted. This way, the questions themselves are known, but not the correct answers.

 

really, all of them together with their books open didn't get all of the right answers the first time? On what, a multiple choice computerized test?! Seriously, I think they should feel a bit embarrassed about this.)

 

No. I can write you a multiple choice test that has extremely low pass rates - by simply creating a set of incorrect answer options that incorporate all the commonly made mistakes and typical misconceptions. Open book and notes would not help any.

I've been designing exams for 15 years. I can create two tests with identical questions and make one a very easy and the other a very hard test, simply through the selection of the incorrect answer options. Just because a test is mc does not mean it is easy. Ask our students.

Edited December 15, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I don't care what the instructor said or didn't say - exams are a test of your own individual understanding of the material. 

So maybe it's not technically cheating, but it's at the very least poor quality instruction and assessment.

 

The bolded most definitely. 

 

Open book group exams are not meaningful exams.

[creekland]

Instructors proctor exams because otherwise some students will cheat. Nobody thinks it is OK for the instructor to not show up for proctoring and rely on student ethics - if cheating occurred in an unproctored exam, the instructor would still be at fault, even though the students were the ones committing the act.

 

Just FTR, there are still Honor Code schools where the professor leaves the room during the exam.  I know a professor (math) at one of them.  He knows cheating is going on with some students and is powerless to stop it.  He is NOT at fault with his college.  It's a very highly respected LAC.

 

Honestly?  It's made me think a lot less of such schools and the quality that comes with a degree from them - even if most of the students are honest.  One just can't know who is and who isn't by looking at the degree.

[MerryAtHope]

 

No. I can write you a multiple choice test that has extremely low pass rates - by simply creating a set of incorrect answer options that incorporate all the commonly made mistakes and typical misconceptions. Open book and notes would not help any.

I've been designing exams for 15 years. I can create two tests with identical questions and make one a very easy and the other a very hard test, simply through the selection of the incorrect answer options. Just because a test is mc does not mean it is easy. Ask our students.

 

Yeah, I know, but seriously, which one would you create if you were looking for a grade bump?

 

(edited to add--btw, my son just finished finals, and one final had a ton of the hard type of MC questions along with SEVEN essay questions. He spent a lot of time studying, loved this class, but did come home exhausted from that test. I'm not thinking that the test scenario 2's prof gave was anything like the MC part of that test though. I'm guessing it covered the material fairly well but that the questions were pretty straight forward and easy since he wanted to give the kids a grade bump, and that perhaps a couple of questions were unintentionally ambiguous or something and that's why the kids got them wrong. But I think they should be embarrassed to discuss the whole situation--he wanted them to do well, they got to do it all together and with open books, and still had to cheat to get 100%.)

Edited December 15, 2016 by MerryAtHope

[MerryAtHope]

The bolded easily happens with a computer administered multiple choice exam.

Whenever a student takes a computerized multiple choice test, the instructor has the options to have the computer either give no feedback, or to indicate the number of correct questions, or to indicate which questions have been answered incorrectly, or to reveal which the correct answers would have been.

If the instructor chooses the option to reveal the correct answers and also chooses to deploy an identical test to all students, the first time a student takes the test, the answer key is published. Any instructor who is using such a system (and encouraging group testing on top of it) has to be fully aware of this fact. 

 

I get that it could be done with technology, but I'm saying I've not heard of anyone doing it that way for an actual test. At my son's school, they only use the feedback option for practice tests (which students can do a variety of, as many times as they want--this was in his Statistics class, so the practice test covered all the concepts but not actual test questions). That option is never selected for an actual test though, and I don't know why it would be unless the instructor specifically WANTED scenario 2 to happen. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by MerryAtHope

[Bootsie]

Well, yes. Both.

 

I don't care what the instructor said or didn't say - exams are a test of your own individual understanding of the material. 

 

So maybe it's not technically cheating, but it's at the very least poor quality instruction and assessment.

 

I've taken (and supervised) a bunch of exams over the last three years, and none of that would fly. Not even for open book.

Exams are not always designed to be individual understanding the of the material.  At one time I taught in an MBA program in which group exams were often given.  Part of what was being assess was a student's ability to convince the group of peers that they were correct AND the ability of the group to come to a consensus regarding what was a good answer.

[Bootsie]

As a professor, I cannot imagine given instructions of "you can use your phone" and mean that ONLY a calculator app on the phone could be used--even then which calculator app can be used?  What if the student receives a text?  I would not want to start monitoring any of that. 

 

I also can't imagine setting up the second situation as a professor and not expect this to happen.  If I graded exams and handed them back in one class before another class took the exam, I would expect that the answers were leaked out in the meantime. 

[Bluegoat]

I can imagine that some people might actually have been clueless about the "only use the calculator" instruction.  A lot of young people seem to be kind of clueless in general about when phones are inappropriate and make bizarre choices about them.  So, in a test situation, I'd think instructions would need to be very clear.

 

I think the second scenario is cheating.  But I suspect the whole thing seemed pretty casual and also not all that serious.

[Bootsie]

Scene Two - yes.  I doubt the Prof thought about that possibility.

 

Scene One - not necessarily.  Some tests always used to be open book and "open phone" now is practically the same thing.  The idea with this is often that real life is open book - we do look things up if we need to, or at least we should.  One consideration though... if one really needs to look things up (rather than just a detail or two), they often won't have time to finish the test.  It's generally expected that the student knows the main points and if anything, just needs a detail or two.  I wouldn't walk into an open book test knowing absolutely nothing and expect to do well in a 2-3 hour time period.

Open phone is significantly different than open book.  With today's phones, it is easy to transmit a copy of the exam outside of the classroom--to anywhere in the world--have someone else answer the questions and send the answers via the phone to the classroom. 

[hopskipjump]

Ha! The replies here were as varied as their opinions were the other day! I felt that both situations were absolutely cheating, and SO obvious, so the discussion was fascinating to me. Most of the parent-aged people within hearing distance agreed. But, the larger portion of the college students argued voraciously that neither were technically cheating situations and perfectly within the limits of ethical. The parents were :mellow:  at some of the kids' responses to the various situations they were sharing - but the kids were absolute that they were correct and "just." So I've been thinking over it a lot since then.

 

I only heard bits and pieces except for the two situations I listed here. The conversation, however, brought up some great conversations between dd and I on the way home.

 

The students having this conversation go to several different universities (private and public universities of various sizes) and have majors ranging from various Engineering fields to English to Music Education to Pre-Med. All except for 3 are at in-state universities and many of the kids still live at home. Most were homeschooled.

 

They ALL shared stories about often being the only student "with the pencils," or "with the calculator," or "with the papers we were supposed to print out..." and had a good laugh about that together.

 

 

Some more details:

 

1) The professor with the "you can use your phone" had said in a previous lecture that the students would want a calculator for the upcoming final and said that it didn't need to be a complicated calculator "just the one on your phone should work" or something along those lines. The day of the final, he simply reminded them that "they can use their phones" and left it at that.

 

I don't know what class this was for, but obviously not a standard math class... so I'm assuming that only a part of the test "needed" a calculator/phone. But, apparently most of the kids used their phones for the entire thing.

 

Professor was in the room, and I suppose he would have seen that kids were obviously on their phones for more than the "math portion" would have needed?

 

The student sharing the story DID NOT USE his phone. He's another homeschooler and he brought a regular calculator to the class with him for the test. When the test was over, his classmates were berating him for not using his phone and said that "of course" the professor knew they were all using their phones (if he hadn't, he would have said something during the test, they said).

 

The other students said it's because he was homeschooled and doesn't realize that this is "how things work with tests" and that the prof had assumed they would, of course, be using their phones - because he said "the one on your phone [that you are already going to be using] will work."

 

He came into the final with one of the highest overall grades in the class, but got the lowest score on the final that he is aware of (there was a lot of technical memorization involved and a multiple choice test with similar answers) and says he's learned his lesson - and next time, he's absolutely using his phone if that scenario comes up again.

 

(His mother's face , though, when he said that... :blink: :svengo: lol)

 

2) :lol:  that the kids taking the group exam should have been embarrassed to not have a 100% the first time through! lol The student insisted that this professor has a reputation for very tricky, tough exams.

 

The girl sharing that story said it's (having group, open-book tests) how many of the professors do their tests instead of curving the test scores if they are trying to help boost scores due to a tough test class-wide. She was in the group (not the sacrificial lamb, but said she did bring a Starbucks to her friend soon after).

Edited December 16, 2016 by hopskipjump

[creekland]

Ha! The replies here were as varied as their opinions were the other day! I felt that both situations were absolutely cheating, and SO obvious, so the discussion was fascinating to me. Most of the parent-aged people within hearing distance agreed. But, the larger portion of the college students argued voraciously that neither were technically cheating situations and perfectly within the limits of ethical. The parents were :mellow:  at some of the kids' responses to the various situations they were sharing - but the kids were absolute that they were correct and "just." So I've been thinking over it a lot since then.

 

I only heard bits and pieces except for the two situations I listed here. The conversation, however, brought up some great conversations between dd and I on the way home.

 

The students having this conversation go to several different universities (private and public universities of various sizes) and have majors ranging from various Engineering fields to English to Music Education to Pre-Med. All except for 3 are at in-state universities and many of the kids still live at home. Most were homeschooled.

 

They ALL shared stories about often being the only student "with the pencils," or "with the calculator," or "with the papers we were supposed to print out..." and had a good laugh about that together.

 

 

Some more details:

 

1) The professor with the "you can use your phone" had said in a previous lecture that the students would want a calculator for the upcoming final and said that it didn't need to be a complicated calculator "just the one on your phone should work" or something along those lines. The day of the final, he simply reminded them that "they can use their phones" and left it at that.

 

I don't know what class this was for, but obviously not a standard math class... so I'm assuming that only a part of the test "needed" a calculator/phone. But, apparently most of the kids used their phones for the entire thing.

 

Professor was in the room, and I suppose he would have seen that kids were obviously on their phones for more than the "math portion" would have needed?

 

The student sharing the story DID NOT USE his phone. He's another homeschooler and he brought a regular calculator to the class with him for the test. When the test was over, his classmates were berating him for not using his phone and said that "of course" the professor knew they were all using their phones (if he hadn't, he would have said something during the test, they said).

 

The other students said it's because he was homeschooled and doesn't realize that this is "how things work with tests" and that the prof had assumed they would, of course, be using their phones - because he said "the one on your phone [that you are already going to be using] will work."

 

He came into the final with one of the highest overall grades in the class, but got the lowest score on the final that he is aware of (there was a lot of technical memorization involved and a multiple choice test with similar answers) and says he's learned his lesson - and next time, he's absolutely using his phone if that scenario comes up again.

 

(His mother's face , though, when he said that... :blink: :svengo: lol)

 

2) :lol:  that the kids taking the group exam should have been embarrassed to not have a 100% the first time through! lol The student insisted that this professor has a reputation for very tricky, tough exams.

 

The girl sharing that story said it's (having group, open-book tests) how many of the professors do their tests instead of curving the test scores if they are trying to help boost scores due to a tough test class-wide. She was in the group (not the sacrificial lamb, but said she did bring a Starbucks to her friend soon after).

 

None of this existed in my college days and (so far) I haven't heard any similar stories from my guys, so I have hope that it's not super widespread.

 

Otherwise, I wonder how much of it is due to colleges putting pressure on profs to have a high graduation rate.

 

FWIW, at the high school where I work, phones are never allowed on tests.  We used to allow them for music listening (only), but too many kids were taking pics of the test and sending the to peers.  It was impossible to police the whole classroom all the time - even with a proctor there.  Some teachers allow tests to be done over a couple of days (same test, not different portions).  I've never understood the "why" on that one as it's obvious students can cheat.  The funny thing is... most students don't cheat.  It's not an ethical thing on their part.  They simply don't care that much about their grade.  :glare:  By college I'm assuming that portion has been weeded out.

[Bluegoat]

Ha! The replies here were as varied as their opinions were the other day! I felt that both situations were absolutely cheating, and SO obvious, so the discussion was fascinating to me. Most of the parent-aged people within hearing distance agreed. But, the larger portion of the college students argued voraciously that neither were technically cheating situations and perfectly within the limits of ethical. The parents were :mellow:  at some of the kids' responses to the various situations they were sharing - but the kids were absolute that they were correct and "just." So I've been thinking over it a lot since then.

 

I only heard bits and pieces except for the two situations I listed here. The conversation, however, brought up some great conversations between dd and I on the way home.

 

The students having this conversation go to several different universities (private and public universities of various sizes) and have majors ranging from various Engineering fields to English to Music Education to Pre-Med. All except for 3 are at in-state universities and many of the kids still live at home. Most were homeschooled.

 

They ALL shared stories about often being the only student "with the pencils," or "with the calculator," or "with the papers we were supposed to print out..." and had a good laugh about that together.

 

 

Some more details:

 

1) The professor with the "you can use your phone" had said in a previous lecture that the students would want a calculator for the upcoming final and said that it didn't need to be a complicated calculator "just the one on your phone should work" or something along those lines. The day of the final, he simply reminded them that "they can use their phones" and left it at that.

 

I don't know what class this was for, but obviously not a standard math class... so I'm assuming that only a part of the test "needed" a calculator/phone. But, apparently most of the kids used their phones for the entire thing.

 

Professor was in the room, and I suppose he would have seen that kids were obviously on their phones for more than the "math portion" would have needed?

 

The student sharing the story DID NOT USE his phone. He's another homeschooler and he brought a regular calculator to the class with him for the test. When the test was over, his classmates were berating him for not using his phone and said that "of course" the professor knew they were all using their phones (if he hadn't, he would have said something during the test, they said).

 

The other students said it's because he was homeschooled and doesn't realize that this is "how things work with tests" and that the prof had assumed they would, of course, be using their phones - because he said "the one on your phone [that you are already going to be using] will work."

 

He came into the final with one of the highest overall grades in the class, but got the lowest score on the final that he is aware of (there was a lot of technical memorization involved and a multiple choice test with similar answers) and says he's learned his lesson - and next time, he's absolutely using his phone if that scenario comes up again.

 

(His mother's face , though, when he said that... :blink: :svengo: lol)

 

2) :lol:  that the kids taking the group exam should have been embarrassed to not have a 100% the first time through! lol The student insisted that this professor has a reputation for very tricky, tough exams.

 

The girl sharing that story said it's (having group, open-book tests) how many of the professors do their tests instead of curving the test scores if they are trying to help boost scores due to a tough test class-wide. She was in the group (not the sacrificial lamb, but said she did bring a Starbucks to her friend soon after).

 

 

The kids might be right about the intent for #2, but it seems wrong that should be necessary.  I've never liked te idea of grading on a curve, either.

 

#1 sounds worse to me now!

 

What strikes me is that the kids in both cases sound pretty cynical about education.

[regentrude]

The girl sharing that story said it's (having group, open-book tests) how many of the professors do their tests instead of curving the test scores if they are trying to help boost scores due to a tough test class-wide. 

 

Arrgh. They might as well just add a bunch of extra points to everybody's score.

 

Curving is very tricky if the class is large. With a small class, there will be natural breaks between clusters on te grade curve, and one can adjust the grade cuts. With a large class, scores are a complete continuum, and for every conceivable grade cut there will be a number of students just one point below.

 

We are solving the issue by offering the entire class the opportunity to earn more points by giving additional questions on the final, but leaving the grade cuts in terms of absolute points unaltered. This way, students can improve their grades, but they have to work for it.

 

Group exams are deeply unfair because students of similar ability will score differently solely depending on whether they end up in the group with the smart people or not.

[MerryAtHope]

 

2) :lol:  that the kids taking the group exam should have been embarrassed to not have a 100% the first time through! lol The student insisted that this professor has a reputation for very tricky, tough exams.

 

No, not embarrassed about not getting 100%, embarrassed about getting the actual answers to a test and then turning them in as their own work. They all should get the first student's grade--that's the one they earned in their group (and was a decent grade too). I think the instructor is also culpable though (for either directly or indirectly sanctioning cheating) and should find other ways to boost student scores. He certainly could have turned off the corrections (if he thinks his test is so hard that the students couldn't get an A by working together with open books, there's something seriously wrong in both his instruction and his tests. But obviously, they were able to.) Maybe he should save his trickiness for a smaller percentage of questions or offer them for extra credit, or mix things up and give a test that's a more fair test of students at this particular level. There are lots of ways to boost student scores that are more scrupulous. Now students think it's fine to steal someone else's work and put their names on it, as long as it's not "technically" wrong. 

 

Maybe it's harsh to say I think they should be embarrassed for cheating. I do get how in the moment they could think it was a gray area or not even wrong at all because of the structure the professor set up, but I hope it's one of those things they'll reflect on and maybe change their minds over time. I think it's a sad state and hope that not a lot of professors out there are encouraging similar behavior. 

[Bootsie]

I can easily see how students would not think it is wrong to have one student submit the answers and then correct their own answers.  Many of them have been taught this through schooling.  I know a number of high school students who take a test, get it corrected, then can retake the same test for a higher grade.  Students have even reported taking the SAT exam, missing problems, getting their scores and answers, then retaking the SAT and seeing the same problem.  There has been so much focus on how to make sure students pass the test that I think students today do not have the same idea of it being a measure of what they have learned.  

[creekland]

Maybe it's harsh to say I think they should be embarrassed for cheating. I do get how in the moment they could think it was a gray area or not even wrong at all because of the structure the professor set up, but I hope it's one of those things they'll reflect on and maybe change their minds over time. I think it's a sad state and hope that not a lot of professors out there are encouraging similar behavior. 

 

Um, I've heard many adults brag about ways they've cheated in the past - school, college, life (cheating individuals or companies out of $$ or goods/services often in the guise of "how to get a good deal").  I wouldn't hold my breath that any are going to be embarrassed by it.  Humans have vastly differing ideas about what's good/bad and it's been going on for eons - probably since the beginning of time.

[Reefgazer]

As per the professor's instructions, neither scenario is cheating.

Edited December 17, 2016 by reefgazer

[scoutingmom]

Technically, not cheating. Ethically and morally I think both are. In #1 someone should have asked the professor to clarify (although that would probably make you unpopular). In #2 I am appalled at the professor because he apparently set it up specifically to encourage cheating to raise scores, likely for his benefit.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Bluegoat]

I can easily see how students would not think it is wrong to have one student submit the answers and then correct their own answers.  Many of them have been taught this through schooling.  I know a number of high school students who take a test, get it corrected, then can retake the same test for a higher grade.  Students have even reported taking the SAT exam, missing problems, getting their scores and answers, then retaking the SAT and seeing the same problem.  There has been so much focus on how to make sure students pass the test that I think students today do not have the same idea of it being a measure of what they have learned.  

 

This makes a lot of sense, now that you say it.  I don't know how many times I've heard that the job of the institution or teacher is to get everyone to pass.  Not to learn - but to pass.  The original idea I think assumed that passing was just a measure of learning. but I think that odten now, it really just means the point is to pass.