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[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[PeterPan]

My dd, not dyslexic, did VT when she was 10/11. If you have convergence insufficiency, depth perception issues, visual perception issues, etc., then those will affect your reading by making it less comfortable. My dd was rejecting smaller print books, so it seemed like she was not moving forward when it was really her convergence insufficiency. So yes, for her VT made reading more comfortable, which gave her a huge bump. Also you'll get EF (executive function) improvement sometimes with VT, especially if they bring in working memory exercises. Often in VT they'll work on tracking. After a month of VT my dd started sounding out words, which she had refused to do before, and I think it was because we were getting improvement in her working memory and tracking. 

 

My ds is dyslexic, and as of right now he doesn't even need VT. If you're concerned about your dc's reading, it's important to know what is causing the reading problem. I've had a developmental optometrist tell me that from their perspective dyslexia is a vision problem, which obviously is utter BUNK. If you have vision problems and they're affecting your reading, then yes improving the developmental vision problems will make it easier and more comfortable. If the dc has dyslexia, get it diagnosed and get proper interventions. You can also have both issues going on.

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[Storygirl]

The problems you mention can be signs of possible dyslexia. DD11 did those things, and she is dyslexic, with no vision problem (she did have a screening with a COVD, to be sure). Because VT is expensive, I would want to be sure that the reading issue is related to a visual problem before proceeding. Age 7 is not too young to be tested for dyslexia.

 

[Ottakee]

My nephew is a poster child for vision therapy. He went from barely reading at all at age 10 with a high IQ to reading several grade levels ahead after completing his vision therapy. It was amazing. Is it a cure all for all kids, no. For him though it changed his life.

[PeterPan]

DS does seem to get tired as he reads and writes, but he also skips over small words, leaves off suffixes or guesses the suffix, and sometimes seems to be guessing at the word based on a couple of the letters in the word. His reading is not way behind, but it does *seem* like his friends are ahead and more interested in independent reading. However, he does make progress with instruction and plenty of practice, so I also wonder if it is just maturity. Should I pursue a dyslexia screening? DS is 7.

 

Has he had a developmental vision exam? If he did and he has vision problems, then he has the vision problems. If you want to know if he has dyslexia as well, you'd get a CTOPP and possibly a full psych eval. Around here, I can get a CTOPP with a reading tutor for just $75. My ds was diagnosed with dyslexia at newly 6, so no he wouldn't be too young to get diagnosed. The old standard of waiting till 8 is WAY outdated. They now want kids diagnosed before 1st grade. 

 

So if you have concerns about dyslexia, yes, get him tested. Federal law requires your ps to identify all students with disabilities, so they can run the CTOPP and testing for you. They might want RTI first, give you the run-around, or misinterpret the results, sure. Technically they're asking a different question (whether you need an IEP/504), not whether he's dyslexic. But if your pricepoint is free, the ps can run the testing. Or find a tutor or a psych, sure. 

 

Barton has tutor lists, and Learning Ally has lists. Some of the OG orgs have lists. A dyslexia school will have some options. 

 

If you went to the developmental optometrist and they found convergence and tracking issues and they're saying 1-3 months to treat, then you could go ahead and begin VT while waiting for the psych eval. If the reading problems totally reverse with the VT, you'd just cancel the psych eval. But really, they're separate things. If vision problems are causing his reading problems, then VT should help. However if dyslexia (phonological processing) is causing his reading problems, then you're still going to need to work on that. 

 

What you're going to find is that people who've been around the block are usually more aggressive with the next kid on getting evals. There's no advantage to waiting, and often things don't have a simple answer. You're not telling us a lot, but I'll bet if we dug and asked more questions there's more going on. ADHD is comorbid with dyslexia 60% of the time, and lots of kids with ADHD have crunchy reading. EF (executive function) issues go with the ADHD, and we mentioned earlier that VT often bumps EF, which is why some kids will get big improvement. So to me, when you're seeing symptoms, you might as well start eval'ing and figure it all out. Better now than later. 

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[PeterPan]

Well if you were around here I'd just say get the CTOPP (test of phonological processing) done for $75. Quick info, cheap. The guessing thing is not good, because it's either vision or working memory or phonological processing or a combination. Usually what you'll see though is the breakdown is going to occur even without the visual element, if it's more than vision.  

 

I think Barton tutors have access to the CTOPP. I would just do some calling around. 

 

If it's only vision, you'll probably see rapid improvement (within just 1-2 months) when you begin VT. I think if you go ahead and start looking for who you'd want to do that CTOPP while you're beginning the VT, it would not be overkill.

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[MyLife]

And thank you to everyone else for your thoughts. I do appreciate it!

[City Mouse]

I agree that it does not sound like his reading issues are due to vision only. The muscle issues you described may be improved with vision therapy which may in turn make focusing on the words easier for him which could make reading "easier" for him. On the the other hand, some of what you describe could be a sign of dyslexia or other reading issue that has nothing to do with his visual system.

 

I once worked with a totally blind child who was a Braille reader that I sware would have been diagnosed as dyslexic If he had vision. He had all the phonological issues that are classic markers for dyslexia.

[PeterPan]

OhElizabeth, thanks for the insight. I will go ahead and look into the CTOPP. FWIW, I just gave my son the Barton Student Screening and he did not pass Task B, the clapping syllables sections. 

 

A newly 5 yo should be able to pass the Barton screening. It is not limited by his vision. I would get that dyslexia eval pronto and begin proper intervention.  

 

And, fwiw, it's very possible he also has ADHD. It's a good reason to get a full psych eval, not just a tutor eval. Tutor eval won't give you IQ, processing speed, or diagnose other issues. He may have other SLDs (math, writing) or need a referral for OT. I took my ds to get his hearing checked as well when we were doing our evals. A university near us will do a hearing eval *and* a SCAN3 screening portion to look for APD for just $35. At that price it's an easy recommend, kwim?  Would have been $380 privately, ouch. 

 

So yes, time to eval. 

[OneStepAtATime]

An evaluation will show strengths, too, some of which may be untapped because a struggle area could be masking/hindering it. Finding strengths was just as beneficial for my family as finally understanding and being able to target the weaker areas.

[geodob]

If you do a test for Dyslexia? Then you should really do a separate test for each eye?

As the 'eyes drifting outwards',  is a Divergence issue.

Where reading the first few letters of a word. Is a way to cope with this.

 

It is important to understand how our eyes work?

At the back of eyes, their is a spot called the Fovea that is what we use to see clearly.

Which is what is use to read words.

But the Fovea, is only about 2.5 mm's or 1/4 of an inch wide.

Which presents a problem with vision, as we can only see a tiny area clearly.

 

Though to cope with this, and to see a larger area clearly?

What the eyes do, is to make automatic movements, called Saccades.

If you stop and look at a word for a second.

You might think that your eyes are staying still for that second, as you look at the word?

But in fact, within that second,  Your eyes will make 4 automatic movements / saccades.

So that your eyes will first focus on the first few letters of the word.  Take a snapshot.

Then move to end of the word and take another snapshot.

They then move to above the centre of word, and take a snapshot.

Lastly, move below the centre of the word, and take another snapshot.

 

The brain is in a constant process, of putting these 4 snapshots a second together, to form a larger clear image.

So when we look at a word?  Our eyes actually take these  4 snapshots, and fit them together as a single image of the whole word.

 

But if we consider how the 'eyes drifting outwards/ divergence' effects this?

Perhaps to start with, both eyes are focused on the 'start of the word', the first letters.

But then as the eyes move to the next position, that they start to diverge?

So that now, they are focused on different points?

 

When the brain tries to fit these images together?  With each eye looking at different points/ letters?  

Then different images are being formed with each eye.

That form a blurred image when put together.

 

So that when you say he guesses words, based on the first few letters?

It is only the first few letters that he sees clearly.

 

Though it is good that you will be trying to correct his vision, at the age of 7.

As when this isn't corrected? 

By around the age of 9.  The brain learns to cope with these 'drifting eyes'?

By ignoring vision from one eye.

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[MistyMountain]

Thanks for that info geodob. My dd had issues with saccades or irregular eye movements and tracking marked down. She does have a hard time with what you describe. No one really explained what was going on to me. That would make it harder to read sentences too right? She seems to do better when words are really big. She still has a way to go with reflexes. I am going once a month and they gave me a sheet of home exercises but I might get that Kenneth Lane book once her reflexes are better controlled.

Edited December 16, 2016 by MistyMountain

[kbutton]

Yesterday, I gave him the Barton Screen. The max incorrect for syllables is 1 error. He made 2 errors. We practiced clapping out syllables this morning, and he did it correctly. Although, I did say the words slowly and bit segmented to help him "hear." As OhElizabeth pointed out, this has nothing to do with vision.

 

He could have motor planning issues also, and that could be a problem with the clapping (even if he has good rhythm). It's not unusual for coordination and vision issues to go together. Sometimes it's like "pull a string" to see what unravels.

 

My son's reading issues were similar to your son's, and he improved greatly with VT. 

 

He also has CAPD, which makes it harder for him to process auditory information. When he started to learn to read, he thought I was playing a joke on him when I told him the words thin, then, and than were all different. He thought it was one word with three meanings. Some kids don't get that far--they just totally miss the connection to print words, etc. Once he could see the words, he could listen better for the sounds. The vision issues showed up after he was into reading a bit more, and it was more of an issue of fatigue.

 

If you have to be more slow about saying stuff, your son could be having trouble processing the sounds and/or just be slower to take in the spoken word. The rate at which my son can absorb speech sounds is in the 2nd percentile. Lately we found out that he hears it all, but it's like it's on a time delay, and he experiences some kind of painful auditory sensation when he is having trouble keeping up.

 

He also has a lot of coordination issues, but not enough of them to get a developmental coordination disorder/dyspraxia diagnosis. 

 

Basically, it can be several things. In our case, VT was life-changing, and it has made the rest of what we do much easier. Speaking more slowly when we need to is also a big help. 

[geodob]

Mylife,  you wrote that 'his eyes drift outwards',  which is actually called 'Amblyopia',  and 'Lazy Eye'.

 

Though typically with this, their is a 'strong eye' and a 'weak eye'.

So that one eye is more able to stay focused on a point, while the other drifts away.

 

This can basically be tested for, by using an 'eye-patch'.

Which would also be interesting to compare his reading, with one eye patched, and then the other?

As it is quite possible, that with one of his eyes, he is able to focus on the whole word and not just the first few letters?

As his 'good eye', isn't being distracted by what his 'drifting eye' is looking at.

 

So that simply using an 'eye-patch', you would be able to identify if he has a 'good eye' and 'weak eye'?

Where treatment involves identifying the problem/s with the weak eye, and trying to correct this.

Which begins by checking for any 'vision problems' with the weak eye.

So that the 'drifting of the eye', can be identified as a motor control problem with the eye.

 

Though a major way to resolve this,  simply uses the 'eye-patch'.

That involves wearing the eye-patch over the good eye.

Without vision from the good eye. Then of course, this rather forces one to try and develop greater control over the weak eye.

It is generally recommended, to wear the eye-patch, for about 3 to 4 hours a day.

But this could be divided up, over the whole day.

Also with inside and outside activities.  To practice looking at different distances.

 

Though it is also important that he is 7 years old.   As when this difficulty isn't addressed early. Typically by around the age of 8 to 9. 

The brain develops a coping strategy, where it basically ignores vision from the weak eye.

Which helps to some degree, as vision isn't being confused by the 'drifting eye'.

But it does result in 'monocular vision', rather 'binocular vision'.

 

Yet the really interesting thing, would be to observe any difference, when he reads with his left, and then his right eye patched?

[PeterPan]

Your VT doc should be able to talk with you about the amblyopia. If they aren't explaining things well, find a new doc.

 

Yes, I think it will naturally work out that you have a month or two of VT under your belt before you do any other evals. I wouldn't push it off a year, but a month or two or three, while you're finding the person you want to eval and waiting for an appt, that can be good. I've seen the CTOPP administered but I just don't remember how much was visual. I think your plan is reasonable. 

 

Obviously look at all your options, look at pricepoints. When you move over to a psych, you're getting more information about IQ, discrepancy, other diagnoses, etc. It can be helpful. So to me, just me, I would look at the cost of the tutor screening and put it in perspective. Like if you can get the tutor screening for a great price and then go ok, yes we want the full psych eval, then that's cool. Around here, you can get that for $75, so it's easy to recommend. But if the tutor is wanting $500-800 (which we've heard quoted from some places), then maybe pause and compare your options for value.

 

You would not just do patching without talking with the eye doc. The VT doc should have a plan for how to handle it. COVD has Fellows, and if you think amblyopia is going on you might want to step up to a Fellow or make really, really sure this doc has a good plan and enough experience. 

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[geodob]

Mylife, do you mean that his eyes wont cross the midline?

 

Though perhaps you could simply have him try to read, with one eye covered, and then the other eye covered?

Where it would be interesting to see whether he can read better, when his eyes don't need to work together?

We do have a 'dominant eye'.  So that he may read better, just using his dominant eye?

 

But I do wonder about the value of any tests for Dyslexia, until it is clearly understood how his vision is effecting his reading?

 

[PeterPan]

PRO-ED Inc. That says proed, but it has a list of the subtests for the CTOPP. I was with my ds for one of the times it was administered, and I just don't remember how much was visual vs. auditory. I think most of the CTOPP is auditory. The RAN/RAS (rapid naming) was visual. For the rest though, the actual phonological processing, they'll say something like "what is cat without the /k/" and the dc will reply. Auditory, aloud, how they process components in words. Now if the tester is doing achievement testing, OBVIOUSLY that's going to be visual. And I agree, I think a month or two or three of VT under his belt will help that. 

 

Learning Ally has some tutor lists. You might keep looking to see if you can get that price down. That's a lot of money, honestly. Like what does that person charge per hour for their services? It takes very little time to administer the CTOPP. So if they charge $65 an hour, they're saying they're spending 4 hours on you maybe. They're generating a written report? And what is it worth? Cuz if it's not coming from a psych, it's worthless. (I recognize I have an extremely b&w, not pro-tutor viewpoint there, lol.) It can validate a decision to pay for $$$ tutoring, yes. But as far as getting you access to NLS/BARD or Learning Ally or being useful in an IEP fight or... tutor evals might not be worth much. And some clinical psych evals will be under $1K. If your insurance covers it, the psych eval may be free. 

 

Now I did neuropsych evals with my kids, and those you pay much more for. Psychs are usually billing about the same per hour (private psychs, not with a hospital), so the difference in cost is how many hours they're billing. But that's why I'm just saying keep looking at your options, take your time. It's ok to take a month or two to sort this out while you do some VT. If it takes you a month to decide and 3 months to get in, well you've got 4 months of VT done and are pretty confident the eyes weren't holding him back, kwim? 

 

What you might do is see how much the full psych is going to cost, see what the wait is, and then balance that with the cost of this tutor/informal eval. Like if the tutor eval gives you info and you decide ok, now I know I want the full eval, where the full eval was going to be $2-3K (in some parts of the country) then that might be worth it. But I think you're also going to feel a real conflict of mind once you get that info, just saying. A kid who is failing the screening portion of Barton at that age clearly has some challenges. As a mom, once you get that data from the CTOPP, you're gonna be like I WANNA DO SOMETHING NOW! And then what? Then you wait 3-4 months for the psych you REALLY wanted? You can intervene so much that the dyslexia is harder to diagnose next round. Now on my ds, it was still obvious. There will be indictators and they may look at discrepancy and at your first CTOPP and put all the pieces together. But I'm just saying that can happen too. Some kids have huge jumps with high quality intervention, so their dyslexia will become less obvious (by the numbers) for a while. Then, as their peers pull ahead, it will become obvious again. There's an ebb and flow to it.

 

My ds has had a lot of evals because he has a mix of issues, and every time I find things I want to start interventions NOW. So I'm just saying think through that path and what you're trying to make happen. My ds has all three SLDs (reading, writing, math). I wanted documentation and paper trail, because I want access to services and accommodations. That's VERY important to me. It's not as important to some people. It was to me. I fought two years in an IEP fight. Depending on your situation, you may have things you want to make happen with this info. 

 

That's why I'm saying it's ok and ethical to take a month or two here if necessary, think it all through, while you do your VT. You're not going to pay for evals a lot of times, so you want it to be with someone who is opening the doors you want to open and giving you the access you need. You already know there's a phonological processing problem. The question is what ELSE is going on and what doors you want to make open with these evals and what the most sensible way is to make that happen.

 

Keep asking questions. It's not bothering anyone. We've all btdt, and it does take a while to sort through.   :)

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Edited December 19, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[OneStepAtATime]

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

[PeterPan]

Update on an old thread. Vision therapy really helped! He's doing great!

 

So did everything resolve, or are you still pursuing psych evals as well? That's fabulous that the VT is helping so much!

[kbutton]

Great news!

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[PeterPan]

That is so wonderful!! He sounds like a very bright boy! If you're having any ADHD symptoms, for instance, that would be another reason to consider evals. I don't know that you are, just saying. Doesn't have to be for SLDs. But that's SO exciting that things have turned around for him. :)

[MyLife]

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Edited January 21, 2018 by MyLife

[Julie of KY]

Haven't read all the posts, but my daughter who is both dyslexic and has convergence insufficiency made HUGE strides in reading with vision therapy.

My son who had different problems made great strides (in areas other than reading) with vision therapy.