Distinguishing short e and short i

[Kanin]

Does anyone have any tips for helping a child distinguish between short e and short i? I'm tutoring a 2nd grader who is struggling mightily. We're doing LiPS but even the LiPS tricks (short i, only fit your fingernail between your teeth, short e, only fit the tip of your finger between your teeth) aren't working. Is that something a speech therapist would need to work on, or is there more that I can do? We are using a mirror as well.

[OneStepAtATime]

If LiPS isn't even working then, yeah, I think getting a SLP involved might be a good way to go...

[Guest]

Is the child struggling to make it or hear it?

[Kanin]

Is the child struggling to make it or hear it?

 

Good question - I think he's having trouble both hearing and pronouncing. It's hard to tell because sometimes he gets it right and sometimes he doesn't. I've never straight-up asked him if he can tell the difference though. Next time I'll do something like part C of the Barton screening and say a couple variations of /e/ /e/ /i/ and see if he can tell the difference. If he can't, that's a hearing thing, right...? or would continued LiPS work improve that?

[Mandamom]

He probably can't hear the difference. It is really hard for some people to hear it. Keep working on a lot of phonemic awareness. 

 

We attach a motion/word to go with the sound. So, 'i' is itch with the motion of scratching the arm. 'e' is edge with touching the side of a table. repetition helps but it still can be very hard. 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Mandamom

[Guest]

In the middle of words that haven't been segmented out it can be super hard to hear, especially since we have so many schwa sounds in our words and worse in our regional accents and diction.

 

The way we feel it here is that the short e has a softer mouth and dropped jaw, the short i has the corners of the mouth pulled back and a tighter jaw. Isolating those, making him feel the difference between them and hear them in isolation, then in the sound of a word and finally in the reading of the words - if that doesn't do it I'd get outside help.

 

It make take a few days of practice before I'd throw up my hands and declare it impossible - that's a tough set of sounds!

[J-rap]

I was taught (by a SPL), that the long "E" should be said with a smile and closed teeth.  And that the short "i" is made the same way, but with a quick short breath instead (or cutting off the long E immediately).  Then the long "A" should be said with a smile and a slightly opened mouth.  The short "e" is made the same way, but with a short quick breath (or cutting off the long A immediately).

[PeterPan]

The others are correct that you need to look at jaw drop and retraction.  I took my LIPS stuff downstairs and I'm being lazy.  Look at the vowel circle and say the sounds with your hand under your jaw. (A, E, i, e, a, u, ah, O, oo--I rearrange them slightly because I don't like the LIPS order, so check) FEEL the jaw drop.  The jaw will drop lower for /e/ than /i/.  You should NOT teach them close together.  Your LIPS manual I think cautions on this, but it's still an easy mistake to make.  Now that you see your student confusing them, back up, pick ONE (e or i), maybe along with something else totally different that was already strong like oo.  I'm super keen on oo because it was a strong one for us, easy to feel.  Get that one STRONG, super strong, nailed.  Then go back in a couple weeks and reintroduce the other.  

 

Retraction, or what people are calling smiling, is your other marker.  What face does LIPS put it with?  I changed anything I didn't like, and I've already forgotten.  I think we had a separate face for the vowels that start in one place and get to another.  For instance /A/ starts with an /e/ jaw drop and then has the retraction of /E/.  I think I called them sliders with ds (because you slide from one position to another), but I forget.  So you have ones that are a straight retraction (/E/, /i/) and then ones that start one way and end another.  I think we called ones with just retraction smilies.  I didn't use the LIPS names.  

 

So yes, absolutely I would teach them to feel the retraction and notice it!  It's something they can understand.  Take your thumb and pointer finger, like you're making a C, and put it into the grooves in the moustache area of your mouth as you say /E/.  Feel it.  Then feel how for /a/ it doesn't happen.  For /a/ just your jaw drops, no retraction.

 

So me, I would teach a jaw drop vowel and a rounding vowel and wait on retractions.  Then I would add them slowly, not muddling kinds.  So if you've got a jaw drop and a retraction, then add a rounding.  I added them very slowly like that.  LIPS describes it as going to far away points on the vowel circle.  THIS is rocket science for these kids!  It is super, super hard, and it's something that it's ok to slow down on, entrench on.  We spent a LOT of days, like 4 times a day for a lot of days, feeling our jaws drop as we went through the vowels.  

 

We used letter magnets and paired them with the faces.  We did ALL the phonogram combinations too.  Like I taught ee, ay, ai, ou, etc.  I kid you not.  Why not?  Oh, somebody says not to.  Fine, whatever.  I didn't require him to spell with them.  I just introduced them so he could see that no matter how it's written, this is how it feels, this is how it sounds, this is how it organizes into our system.  

 

So back up, reduce the number of vowel sounds you're working with, feel it, see it, focus on production (jaw drop, retraction, rounding) and don't mix kinds till things are SOLID.  And sure, a hearing test is reasonable.  My ds' hearing was fine.  It was just rocket science for him.  Once we got past this, things got a lot easier.

Edited September 10, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Prompt Therapy Training | Prompt Speech Therapy | PROMPT Courses

 

If you want to see retraction input being done physically, you can see it on video 2 at this link.  The /y/ sound in "yeah" is retraction.  In the videos you'll see prompts for rounding and probably the jaw drop too.  It will be fast, because they'll have their thumb on the chin or be offering support to get it back up.  But anyways, you can see the three different kinds.  People don't necessarily move their mouth as much as the theory says, so when you really make some effort to move your mouth for the sound (not exaggerating, but really making the sound clearly), the movements will be more obvious to you.

[PeterPan]

Remember, if the vowels are taking a long time, you can take what you've got (even if it's just one or two) and build words ad nauseum.  Like build vc, cvc, 4 letter, 5 letter...  Keep it going!  Milk what you've got rather than being frustrated about what you don't have yet.  And remember you can build words with the LIPS faces, trade faces for tiles (a Barton 1 skill), trade tiles for letters (B1/B2 skill), and you can do all this up to 5 letters or even multi-syllable, all with just your one vowel that is solid.  It does NOT have to slow you down not to have all the vowels.  You can stay in that land as long as you need to, by going through Barton 1 skills with the vowel you have, then cycling back after you add another vowel and going through the Barton 1 skills again, and so on.  Vowels were very hard here.

[Crimson Wife]

The child needs to see an audiologist for a hearing test because those two vowels only are distinguished by the 2nd formant, which is around 2000-2500 Hz. A child with high frequency hearing loss will commonly mix up those two sounds. LiPS is a great program but it's no substitute for hearing aids or (if the loss is severe enough) a cochlear implant. 

[Kanin]

In the middle of words that haven't been segmented out it can be super hard to hear, especially since we have so many schwa sounds in our words and worse in our regional accents and diction.

 

The way we feel it here is that the short e has a softer mouth and dropped jaw, the short i has the corners of the mouth pulled back and a tighter jaw. Isolating those, making him feel the difference between them and hear them in isolation, then in the sound of a word and finally in the reading of the words - if that doesn't do it I'd get outside help.

 

It make take a few days of practice before I'd throw up my hands and declare it impossible - that's a tough set of sounds!

 

Thanks, that's a great method... to specifically notice the corners of the mouth pulled tighter for short i, not just the jaw drop alone. I'll try that this week!

[Kanin]

You guys, THANK YOU!  I'm blown away by your experience and knowledge! I'll let you know how your ideas go.

 

OhElizabeth, I'm right with you about teaching all of the phonograms. I did that with a student too! I think LiPS is fine with it, although the manual says that if that's going to be too much at once you should just do a few vowels and consonants and start practicing right away. 

[Kanin]

  Now that you see your student confusing them, back up, pick ONE (e or i), maybe along with something else totally different that was already strong like oo.  I'm super keen on oo because it was a strong one for us, easy to feel.  Get that one STRONG, super strong, nailed.  Then go back in a couple weeks and reintroduce the other.  

 

 

 

Yes, this - thanks for the reminder. We've done /a/ and /o/, as well as p/b, t/d. I'm partial to oo as well, and also ee :)

 

I'm thinking for next week we'll add oo or ee, short i, and then some more consonant pairs. I have a dread of short e now because it's so hard for every single kid I've ever taught. I hate short e!

 

Thanks again for ALL of the wonderful responses!! 

[PeterPan]

/a/ and /o/ are very close.  How did the student do with /a/ and /o/?  If they were struggling, back that down to one or the other since they're close.  /E/ (written "ee") and /i/ are very close, so I would not introduce them in the same week/lesson.  It would be ok to add oo and ee in the same week, because they're total opposites, one with a lot of rounding and the other lots of retraction. Then yes, add oo and ee. Then me, I'd go to /u/, because it's a good jaw drop, sort of similar to /a/.  So at that point he has had a long time to get /a/ solid in his mind and you are adding /u/, letting him discriminate them.  Then you could adding a rounding, like /O/. 

 

Just save /e/ a long time.  There's no rush. 

 

On the vowel circle, I change it, teaching /e/ between /i/ and /a/.  So it's A-E-i-e-a-u as you drop your jaw.  Put your hand flat under your jaw and feel it.  So that's why "ee" and /i/ are so close.  Now /u/ is a really glaring jaw drop, so it's not hard to distinguish from /a/.  But /e/ is on the way down and just really close in that mix of /i/, /e/, /a/.  That's what it's hard.  But if you get the other 5 sounds, then when you teach /e/ and chant through the jaw drop progression, he can memorize it and hear it.  

 

Ok, another trick, and I totally forgot till just now!  The absolute BEST THING you can do for this?  

 

Attention Good Listeners

 

See if you can get a copy of this workbook.  It's FABULOUS, and we were doing it while we did LIPS.  It's the bees' knees.  I kid you not.  It's just BRILLIANT.  So simple, but it let's you work on so much.  Got us BIG breakthroughs.  It's going to get you your minimal differences pairs.  We followed some instructions someone sent me, where we used the page multiple ways.  Like make a copy and cut apart for flashcards.  Then you can do rapid naming.  Give a sequence of 1-3 to touch and now you're working on working memory.  Awesome, awesome.  And of course because it's minimal differences, you're really attuning their ears to hear the vowels!  You'll LOVE this workbook.  5 minutes a day and you could send it home as homework.

[Kanin]

That's a good point about /ee/ and /i/ being close. I will add /oo/ and /ee/ this week and some more consonants.

 

That book looks GREAT. I would really love to give homework, because we don't see each other every day (MAJOR BUMMER!). His mom is very motivated to help though, so hw would get done. Working memory and rapid naming are also areas that need work.

 

He was actually right on with /a/ and /o/... but I think you're correct about saving the harder short vowels. I want him to feel successful.

 

If he's doing well with the sounds I introduce - do you think it's safe to give a short amount of reading homework, for example like reading decodable words off of cards? I do NOT want him practicing mistakes, but I want him practicing "my" stuff, even for just 5 minutes every afternoon.

 

It's frustrating to me that he's in school, so he does other reading things that are out of my control. I'm quite bossy when I teach  :thumbup1:  and it bothers me that he's learning things outside the realm of what we're doing together. I personally feel like he's not ready for additional reading, etc. but I'm not his regular reading teacher. She has to teach the whole class, so for her sanity she can't have every kid working on something different.

 

Life! What can ya do, right?

[PeterPan]

I think it would be cool and totally acceptable to make a list of words that are decodable based on the sounds you've covered so far.  You could put them into a Quizlet list and have him download them and practice.  Quizlet has marvelous games too!  I used Quizlet a TON with my ds to work on fluency.  I'm a Quizlet FANATIC.  I LOVE quizlet.  Remember you can also make little sentences with the words. You could begin a few of the Barton sight words from a later level and throw them in, just so it's easier to build phrases and sentences.

 

I think if he had a worksheet from Attention Good Listeners and a Quizlet list to practice for the week, that would be gobs.  So he only sees you once a week?  Bummer.  Can you get it bumped to two times a week?

 

Since you know RAN/RAS needs work, you could give them my dot pages.  They're colored dots, but you can also make pages of numbers or letters for RAN/RAS work.  The CTOPP tests them several ways, iirc.  It was screwy, because the one we did he was fast at, and the one we DIDN'T do he was dramatically slower on.  But that's ASD, where things don't generalize, lol.  But just in general, RAN/RAS work is really valuable!  

 

You could throw in digit spans for the working memory work.  Really though, me, I like something more in motion with my ds.  If the mom will just practice giving commands (clap your hands two times, jump, clap) with increasing sequences, it will be SUPER for his working memory and cost nothing.  It's just really fun!  But the trick is he has to SAY the commands before he does them.  He can't just hold them in is head.  To write he's going to need to be able to hold thoughts, put them into language, and motor plan.  So any time we're doing an activity with all that together, we're doing powerful stuff!  :)

 

If the mom is that motivated, I'd give her more lists to work through.  Like I'd load up a sequence of lists on Quizlet and assign list 1.  If he nails list 1 halfway through the week, add list 2.  And have list 2 add just one little thing.  Like go from 3 letter words to 4 letter words, kwim?  And when he has the 4 letter words of list 2, then 5 letter words in list 3.  All that with the sounds he has.  Sure, absolutely, kick some butt there.  The more practice the better.  So think, if you've introduced /sh/ and you add "ee" this coming week, you can have list one with words like wee and grow it into words like keen and sheep.  

 

The trick, if you do that, is you must, must, must get it easy for him to do the trades from lips faces to tiles to letters.  Otherwise he's swamped, kwim?  If he hasn't nailed that by the end of the session, then you could give her the word list and little photocopies of the faces and have him spell words using the faces.  Like back up to what he CAN do and reinforce that in the homework.  Or she says the word and he unglues it.  She says "sheep" and he says /sh-E-p/.  And she says the words unglued and he glues them together.  They could practice that way.  So I would not assign reading the words as homework unless by the end of the session he CAN read the words from letters.

[PeterPan]

Yes, our IEP does something similar, counting class reading instruction time toward ds' instruction time, even though it's totally obvious that a dyslexic in that scenario isn't taking very much from the class!  

[Kanin]

Thanks, Elizabeth. I see him twice a week but only for half an hour each time. Your ideas are fab. Can't wait to get started (again) on Monday!

[geodob]

Though what makes vowels different from other letters?

Is that vowels are produced from the back of the oral cavity, by movement of the rear of tongue.

Which changes the air flow, and can then the sounds of different vowels.

 

Which are also continuous sounds, and be held.   As opposed to other letters, that are formed by the mouth and tongue.

That can't be held as a sound?  For example, the sound of B, C, D, etc, can only be extended with a vowel.

The basic sounds, b,c,d are very brief sounds.

 

Which is why we need vowels, where they provide the transition to associate letters. 

Though with a difficulty with making the sounds of e and i distinct?

If you simply try making the sounds of e and i, with your mouth open?

 

You will notice that what causes the change in the sound?

Is that at the 'top of your throat' and 'back of your oral cavity'?

Their is an, up and down movement, that causes the change in sound. From e to i to e.

 

Where muscle control at the back of the mouth, is what produces vowel sounds.

While English has 5 vowels represented by letters.

It actually has 12 distinct vowel sounds.

 

Here's a link to diagrams of how different vowels are produced:

 

http://faculty.washington.edu/wassink/LING200/lect6_phonetics3.pdf

Edited September 11, 2016 by geodob

[BlsdMama]

I *hate* Lips for vowels.

 

 

Tap 'em.  Eddie, eddie, e, e, e

Apple, apple, a, a, a

 

 

Plus, give her time and repetition, the ability to discern the difference *will* come but only after repetition too.  Vowels are the hardest to discern between.

[ElizabethB]

more

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/476321-teaching-short-vowel-sounds-help/?hl=%2Bdon+%2Bpotter+%2Bchest&do=findComment&comment=5013571

[Kanin]

more

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/476321-teaching-short-vowel-sounds-help/?hl=%2Bdon+%2Bpotter+%2Bchest&do=findComment&comment=5013571

 

Thanks, I'll read that!

 

Per OhElizabeth's advice, we've got ee/ea, o and a for now. Since he's not 100% solid on those three, but he is on consonants, I think I'll just stick with those as long as needed and work, work, work!

 

I watched a video about a decoding/blending technique. I've been using it and it's been working a lot better than letting the student sound out the entire word at once - I like this method because you don't really let the student make mistakes. The student doesn't learn wrongly, and they don't get frustrated.

 

Anita Archer has had a long teaching career, won a bunch of awards and now she is an educational consultant.  You can watch the decoding video here if you're interested: 

 

http://explicitinstruction.org/video-elementary/elementary-video-11/

[PeterPan]

Oh good night yes!  Remember, these kids have impulsivity, off the charts, out the wazoo.  So they want to ZOOM ZOOM and we're like no, slow down, we know you're going to trip up.  You have Barton or you don't have Barton?  She's kinda hyper-controlling too, and she has some really good phrasing on how to lay down the law about it.  

 

So yes, think through the steps you want to have happen, and slow them down and REQUIRE them to do the preparatory steps to ensure errorless.  You're exactly right there.

 

I think I'm paranoid too.  Like I'm saying that, but I'm sorta joking and sorta not.  There's just nothing more defeating than being WRONG.  If you're wrong a lot, then was that instruction or a test?  And failing at a test feels bad.  I hit this wall some with my dd, but with my ds his reactions can be SO extreme and adamant that I'm just super, super, super, super, super preventative.  If I know he's going to have an error (with the words he's spelling with the Barton app), I'll get in there and support it.  If he has more than 1 or 2 errors in a session, it's just really hard for him.  I don't think anybody likes that level of emotional struggle.

 

So yes, support, go for errorless, slow down the impulsivity, and require the steps.  And you can be frank and say hey while we're learning, we're going to use all these steps.  Later we'll drop some and let you speed up, but for now humor me and do them and afterwards we'll have an ice cream bar.  :)

[PeterPan]

And yes, I totally agree with you on sticking with your field of vowels until those are going swimmingly!  Remember, you can always go longer.  Every letter, every position, that's my motto.  So you brought in a T or whatever, but now we need it initial, medial, final, cvc, ccvc, cvcc, and even going to multi-syllable. And you can do that with all three vowels you've done so far!  That's a lotta work!  

 

If he's having that hard a time hearing the vowels, see if you can add some physical support and visual support.  Feel the vowel, see the vowel, etc., kwim?  Try to get more senses going.  Also, if it's that hard, besides the hearing test someone mentioned, also think about some games.  Like Earobics has some good games for vowels or do some bingo.  I had some little games like little tiles with pictures and you'd play dominoes with them, that kind of thing.  You make more endorphins when you're happy and endorphins help make the neural connections.  

 

You can even do simple things.  Oh, I remember, we had a vowel sorting game I got from Rainbow Resource.  It's Vowel Owls.  Kinda hokey, but it has pictures and you sort them and put them into cups labeled with the vowel sounds.  The cups look like owls.  We played that some.  That would be super easy to do yourself.  Do you have a kit that gives you pictures?  Anything would do, anything with pictures.  An old memory game, anything.  Cull them and pick out 10 for each target sound then put them in a baggee.  Then bam you're ready to go for some practice sorting vowels.  :)

[PeterPan]

Learning Resources Vowel Owls Sorting Set - Walmart.com

 

It looks like Walmart may have this!!!  You can get it tonight!   :)

 

Wow, I must miss this stage, lol.  Suddenly my mind is going with reverse ideas, like how you could fill the owls with marshmallows or m&ms or other motivators, then you take turns thinking up words and eating the appropriate treats.   :drool5:

Edited September 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Kanin]

Haha OhElizabeth, it IS a fun stage, isn't it? There are so many ways to "work" that just feel like games. And the Vowel Owls... that is SO cute. Until I buy it, I might need to make my own by taping owl pictures on some plastic cups. 

 

I agree about being super, super supportive when it comes to mistakes - NOBODY likes to make mistakes. It's so disheartening. It's also counterproductive because a lot of kids can sense from your tone of voice that they've made a mistake, and then they just start making rapid-fire guesses. That's why I like to ask questions about almost every word - "what sound did you feel first when you said fog?" - so they can't tell from my voice if they've made a mistake or not.

 

I think it can be a punch in the gut for parents to realize their child needs LiPS, especially if the realization comes after doing different tutoring programs. It feels like there isn't enough time in the day, but there really is no point trying to remediate without addressing the phonemic awareness skills first.

[PeterPan]

If you're asking the sounds, you're talking too much.  Do you have Barton?  What are you planning to follow LIPS with?  I integrated Barton 1 and Barton 2 skills into LIPS.  Or maybe it was just Barton 1?  My bad memory, lol.  Anyways, if you don't have OG training, then I'd encourage you to get Barton 1 pronto and watch the videos.  You're probably talking too much.  She suggests very tight, controlled routine responses.  It gets them in a rhythm and reduces the working memory drain and distraction.  You need a workflow so they know every time, this is what you expect.  That way you don't have to SAY what you want.  They just know when you point here you mean tap out the sounds.  Then we're going to say the word, breaking it into sounds slowly.  Then we're going to pull down the faces in order while we say the sounds.  Then we're going to touch them and say them back.  Then we're going to run our finger under the sounds and blend.  He may need to do that 3 times, increasing the speed each time.  

 

NONE of that should involve talking.  The less you talk, the better.  Flowchart.

Edited September 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Kanin]

I don't have Barton, but I've done OG training. I used to work at Lindamood-Bell, so I know their drill... boy do I EVER know it. Their scripts are ingrained into my memory forever  :laugh:  :thumbup1: