Just HOW important is Scouting?

[mommytobees]

Honestly:

 

HOW important is scouts?

 

I have a problem.

 

How important do we think scouts are?

 

_I_ think scouts is HUGE for several reasons: (in no particular order)

 

1) it is an "easy-for-me" social outlet for the kids

2) scouts have great fundamental ideas

3) when we have done it in the past, both kids have enjoyed their scouts

 

There are more, I'm sure, but I can't think of them. I was a Girl Scout for 11 years. I earned my Gold Award as well as the "lesser" awards. I think Scouts is HUGE and very very important... BUT.....

 

I'm having issues here with scouts. A few weeks ago I was all set to volunteer for both Cub and Girl scouts at pack and council levels. I was not asked to help with cub scouts and have been roundly ignored. I backed out of helping with Girl Scouts.

 

Since then...

 

I can't GET someone at the Girl Scout office to give me the information regarding the Brownie troop here. I haven't been told if it has been formed, I haven't been told anything at all. No one will call me back.

 

Cub Scouts has become a SEROUS headache. First, even though we were told that we could work independently in WA and in our move NONE of the work that Kyler (and I) have done since leaving (and one pin even PRIOR to leaving) can be counted as complete if Kyler can't show his work and if Kyler won't discuss it with him. Kyler is irritated and willing to do the work over again, but he really doesn't WANT to (not that I blame him). We are talking about 7 pins.

 

Second, the pack here seems to invoke rules that NONE of the packs we've been with have even CONSIDERED doing. One such is having a parent at ALL events except for den meetings. I am NOT talking about Tigers. Kyler is about to NOT be able to possibly earn his Arrow of Light award because on Saturday he might not be able to attend a hike. Why can't he attend this hike? Because _I_ have to go along and Lori can't do it. She can't hike that far and not at that pace.

 

I've been htinking and thinking and thinking about this... even while sleeping for a few weeks now, but it has only come to head this weekend.

 

I am giving serous consideration to telling the kids that scouts here is not an option. Next year, I can put Kyler into Boy Scouts and I do NOT have to attend.

 

Instead, I'm looking at a few MWR classes and a homeschool group. Any thoughts?

 

Kris

[Amy in Orlando]

I_ think scouts is HUGE for several reasons: (in no particular order)

 

1) it is an "easy-for-me" social outlet for the kids

2) scouts have great fundamental ideas

3) when we have done it in the past, both kids have enjoyed their scouts

 

Two of my four sons are en route to Eagle Scouts. So for half of my kids it's been a good thing.

 

Addressing your list:

 

1) It's NOT an easy social outlet. If you have a scout, you, as a parent, will only see success if you commit quite a bit of your time and energy to the group.

 

2) Fundamental ideas - some of them are good, some of them give me pause and make me wrestle - still.

 

3) If you kids aren't enjoying it find a new group. I only know the Cub Scout/Boy Scout end of things, but there are HUGE differences just here in Central Florida. Visit some other groups and see if you like the leadership/parents better. Don't give up because the first group you happened upon didn't work for you.

 

Cub Scouts, if you're not actively involved with every meeting, (or most every meeting) you're going to hit snags. If you want your son to stick with it, get active in the pack and clear anything you do independently with the Cubmaster.

 

As far as the Arrow of Light (which is a very cool ceremony if you can attend it) ... have you talked to the leadership? Most are understanding about health/job/work/life conflicts. He's come so far, surely another family could bring him along on the hike? My oldest ds' best friend (when they were cub scouts) father was seriously ill and his mom was working furiously to keep them afloat - it took two phone calls and this boy was treated as one of my sons.

 

When, about five years later, MY dh was seriously ill for many weeks, the troop (they were boy scouts by then) afforded the same rights to my ds' best friend's parents (who were back on their feet and healthy again) - they took the boys to everything, signed off on things, whatever.

 

Talk to your leadership. If they are not understanding, find a new group.

 

I'm so sorry you're having a rough time.

[mommytobees]

1) It's NOT an easy social outlet. If you have a scout, you, as a parent, will only see success if you commit quite a bit of your time and energy to the group.

 

....

 

Talk to your leadership. If they are not understanding, find a new group.

 

I'm so sorry you're having a rough time.

 

Sorry, this wasn't clear in my post. The "easy for me" is in regards to the military community. This is an "easy" social outlet because of what is isn't... time and energy commitment is NOT a problem. I'm willing to do much. But, I'm a "single" parent at odd times and I have another, younger child.

 

As for find a new group. We live in a military community in Japan. There is 1 pack in this area. The next pack is 3+ hours away. I've gone up the chain of command. I'm just frustrated and angry and trying to do what is right for my family and for my kids.

 

Kris

[Amy in Orlando]

Kris, I did not pick up on any of this when I responded. You're in a whole different universe. I can't believe they'd threaten your son's Arrow of Light over a stupid hike. That's insane. WOW! I'm angry and frustrated for you. If you like I can email our leaders and council and see if they have solutions for you. In light of your situation, there have to be exceptions. Gah! I'm frustrated for you! Let me know if you want me to look into it on this end. That just can't be right.

[mommytobees]

Kris, I did not pick up on any of this when I responded. You're in a whole different universe. I can't believe they'd threaten your son's Arrow of Light over a stupid hike. That's insane. WOW! I'm angry and frustrated for you. If you like I can email our leaders and council and see if they have solutions for you. In light of your situation, there have to be exceptions. Gah! I'm frustrated for you! Let me know if you want me to look into it on this end. That just can't be right.

 

LOL!! Thank you! My husband said the same thing, via e-mail!

 

No, I think the choice is I follow their "rules" for Cub scouts or we don't bother with it.

 

Sigh. I'm just cranky.

 

Kris

[Amy in Orlando]

Well, I'm cranky too. That is just beyond stupid and wrong.

[Kris]

For us, Cub Scouts became irrelevant pretty darn quick. They kept telling the kids they were going to do things -- camping trips and such -- and then either we never heard anymore about it, or my son was told he was too young and couldn't go. After the first year, he told me he wasn't interested anymore.

 

The couple running the troop are racists, and I found out about a particularly ugly exchange between the Dad and a black family during an outing at a local park after my son had quit going. So I was pretty relieved he wasn't there for that.

 

I eventually came to the conclusion that this couple was running the troop because they wanted their son to make Eagle Scout, and the other kids were kind of along for the ride. I don't know if he did or not.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Kris, I'm so sorry you're having such problems.

 

For us, the Boy Scouts is not important at all. We would have to compromise on values and beliefs to be a part of it, and I'm not willing to do that.

[Peela]

Wow, what a mess, that would make me mad, too.

I think Scouts is a great organisation for many kids (not me, I would have hated it as a child, but my kids love it), but my experience is that the leaders make all the difference- good leaders, good group, bad, nitpicky, disinterested leaders, bad group. My kids have been in a fantastic group and I am totally enthusiastic for them- the leaders are just bizzarely ridiculously (to me) enthusiastic, though...its their whole life, but they are not pedantic about the rules, either.

Some homeschooling friends' two daughters were in a different group, and one leader would not issue badges without an incredible amount of unecessary work, and even then would just refuse to sign them off...it was actually traumatising. And the group is so competitive- winning is everything to them, wheras in our group, we go for it but its very much for the spirit of the adventure. And our group is not badge obsessed...the kids are encouraged to go for what that want above and beyond the basics, but not pushed. Our friends came over to our group and love it. I stay minimally involved- my daughter has always made up for my minimal involvement with her passionate, above and beyond duty enthusiasm for Scouts.

I am talking about Scouts, not Cubs though (and I realise there are national differences in the organisation).

All that to say....if it was too hard, I would probably let it go. You are not dealing with "Scouts" you are dealing with humans, and I suspect some rather beurocratic humans get attracted to Scouts. And some militant types. And goodness knows how the Japanese culture may influence things. I would be upset too.

[skissugar]

okay I have not read too much.. but wanted to respond! When you do something at home when working on stuff .. document.. document.. document. I take photos of all our at home projects, and have my son write up a short paragraph on what we did. I have a web2 and my husband is military, but my husband has just about always been the den leader. Having been the den leaders son i did not want him to be looked at as just given things so we always showed his paperwork to the cubmaster if it was an at home thing. As long as your son can tell someone what he did, and approximatly when he did it they should not be denying him his pins. Furthermore, as a military group they should be more lenient when a father is gone. Is there another parent who has a child going that you can relenquish care of your son to while on the hike. They can be accompanied by another adult it does not have to be the parent. Is this for req. number 5 in the book? how many times have they camped out? did he attend resident camp this past summer? You can count either a webelos campout or a hike.. it does not have to be both. (trying to help you out here!) We just switched from the onbase troop where we are at to a homeschooling troop due to some butting of heads over rules and regulations that the com chair was not following. Anyway dh just took over a fabulous group of boys and they are brand new to scouting.. ds being the only one in the group with scouting experience.. these boys have till end of may to get bobcat, web badge, and arrow of light! We took on this challenge because we believe scouting is an important part of a young childs life.

as for girl scouts- Well i am not happy about this whole 2yr daisy thing. My daughter was a daisy last year and earned all her petals we moved to this current location 1 meeting before they ended their scouting year here. Well they did not bridge the 4 little daisys. So now they are stuck in with 1st year daisy scatterd into different troops and are bored silly!! the new leaders are not doing the new program.. only doing the petals again! SO.. I pulled my daughter to be a Juliette this year! She is working the new program at home, we can work at our own pace, and we can earn as many badges as we wish. I attend SUM meetings to keep in the loop as to what is happening and she will be attending S.U. activities and council activities. She will rejoin a troop next year as a brownie. Know that this options does stand open for you if you choose to keep her in scouting but can not get her in a troop. You can do this through the council. The only thing is cookie sales run differently for Juliettes. anyway ive rambled on.. (((hugs))) I hope you can get it all figured out. I suggest if your son wants to do the hike having him go along with another dad that is already going.

 

christina

[Murphy101]

what's MWR???:confused:

[pqr]

We find scouting valuable but have also found problems.

 

A recent troop was very lax on uniform standards and awarding pins, patches and honors. My son did learn some lessons, but not the correct ones when other boys in the troop showed up without uniforms, did not fully complete tasks yet obtained the sign offs and generally did not hold a very high standard. The problem was that frequently their parents to would sign off, as the Akela, for requirements that I know the boys had not mastered. My son and I had long talks about personal integrity and the fact that it matters not what others do and that their behavior was dishonorable.

 

The scout master accepted these sign offs withoout question, hardly setting the example.

 

That being said, many scouts are superb and I strongly encourage my son to participate.

[Frankie]

Kris, I did not pick up on any of this when I responded. You're in a whole different universe. I can't believe they'd threaten your son's Arrow of Light over a stupid hike. That's insane. WOW! I'm angry and frustrated for you. If you like I can email our leaders and council and see if they have solutions for you. In light of your situation, there have to be exceptions. Gah! I'm frustrated for you! Let me know if you want me to look into it on this end. That just can't be right.

 

But the hike is one of the requirements to obtain the Arrow of Light. I wouldn't have given the AOL to a boy that didn't meet the requirement, and some of the parents were ticked at me for that.

 

In fact, thinking back, two of the parents wanted me to just give the AOL to their boys because they had always attended den and pack meeting. They couldn't understand why I wouldn't just give: Either fulfill the requirements or don't, but the Arrow of Light is earned, not handed out.

 

However, I also did not make parents attend--there is no requirement for that at all. Many badges were earned at home.

 

Reading the OP's post made me very sad. The people running the pack are messing it up and making their own rules. If a boy does work outside the den, he should darned well get credit for what he does. When a boy came to me and told me he'd done the work on a badge, I would ask him questions and knew pretty quickly that he was honest. There's no way we could have done all the badges in den meetings.

 

We requested that parents attend pack meetings (and families) but aside from Tigers, they didn't need to attend den meetings.

[Frankie]

For us, Cub Scouts became irrelevant pretty darn quick. They kept telling the kids they were going to do things -- camping trips and such -- and then either we never heard anymore about it, or my son was told he was too young and couldn't go. After the first year, he told me he wasn't interested anymore.

 

The couple running the troop are racists, and I found out about a particularly ugly exchange between the Dad and a black family during an outing at a local park after my son had quit going. So I was pretty relieved he wasn't there for that.

 

I eventually came to the conclusion that this couple was running the troop because they wanted their son to make Eagle Scout, and the other kids were kind of along for the ride. I don't know if he did or not.

 

After my son earned his Arrow of Light and crossed over, we went nowhere. The new Troop leader was a den leader one year ahead of me. He was giving badges to his boys right and left when they had not earned them, and he was not fulfilling the requirements. Everyone knew it. That's not what I wanted for my son.

 

While I would have liked for my son to move on, the leadership wasn't there. So, it became not so important to us as well.

 

For the OP, there is a program called the Lone Scout. Perhaps she should look into that if she wants her sons doing the Scout work but doesn't want to associate with the pack and troop.

[nrg]

I have been involved in scouting for years, as a volunteer trainer among other things. In our council, "a scout is honest." We train our leaders to believe the scout as he describes what he did to meet the requirements to his leader. After all, the boy has pledged honesty.

 

Also, on a national level, a parent may act as "Akela" throughout the cubbing years and sign off requirements for the cub. The leader is supposed to accept this. We are aware that some competitive sorts will lie, but it is better to cultivate the sense of honesty in the boy, than to bring suspicion to an otherwise fun experience. The boy should be ready to talk about what he did to meet the requirements. If the boy cannot be coaxed into a description, then we talk to the parents to be sure.

 

We talk about the value of honesty and I have been know to ask, "Would you trade you honesty for a little pin? Which do you think is worth more to you?"

 

I would write a letter to your cubmaster outlining the achievements and then pins your boy has earned and express your commitment to honesty and the difficulty in proving these things due to your move. I would copy the district and council executives and ask for their policies in these things. I would also commit to following standard procedures in the future.

 

Best wishes to you in this. I think scouting is VERY important.

 

-nrg, mom to 3 Eagles and wife to another

[abbeyej]

Well, I think one can have a very happy and fulfilling childhood, find friends, develop character, learn new skills without Scouts.

 

My brother had a very positive scouting experience and is an Eagle Scout. My own experience with Girl Scouts was poor, and (happily!) didn't last too terribly long. I don't think scouting is "bad", but I don't think it's terribly important (generally) either. (For individual kids with great troups, of course it can be wonderful! As it was for my brother!) I refuse to do Cub Scouts with ds, but if *he* wants to try scouts when he's old enough to be a Boy Scout, I'll find a way for him to do it...

 

Anyway, it sounds like maybe it's time to take a year off... Explore some of the other unique opportunities available where you are... And revisit scouting next year. I don't think your kids will suffer more having a year off than they would dealing with a difficult scouting situation for a year.

 

(I'm confused though about why your son would be unwilling to discuss with the new leader what he did to earn those pins...? That seems like a fairly minor issue to me.)

[Plucky]

All my kids are in scouts. I'm in leadership in Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts, and Boy Scouts. I think scouting is an excellent way to learn leadership, public speaking, being a good citizen, and learning character. I don't think it's necessary or even beneficial for some kids (I wouldn't have like it as a kid. But my parents were not very involved in our lives. So who knows?).

 

I also think the journey and what they learn along the way is more important than making Eagle. My oldest has been in leadership for over a year and is now Senior Patrol Leader. He loves it and has learned so much from scouts. I don't think without this program he could have learned as much but this is the route we took and he has really grown in it.

 

I think too much focus on earning badges and making rank instead of the journey of learning and developing as a person is a shame and actually detracts from the benefits of scouts. My oldest is thinking about his Eagle project. I don't really care if he makes Eagle. I'm proud of everything he's already accomplished and proud of who he has become. He does deserve Eagle and wants it and because of that I'll be by his side cheering him on and helping him in this goal. I think just the end goal of an award though can be a hollow accomplishment without the learning and growth.

 

So yes, scouting can be important depending on the person but so can other routes if they are truly about learning and growing into a person of good character.

[dirty ethel rackham]

To telll you the truth, I am not particularly impressed with Cub Scouts. Maybe some packs are great and can overcome the negatives. Now, I do really like Boy Scouts. I am sad that ds12 decided to drop out this year. DS14 is still in it and it has been good for him.

[Plucky]

I tend to agree. Cub scouts can be totally skipped if it's not a quality group and/or your kiddo isn't in to it. I found out years later that my oldest son hated cub scouts. My younger boy loves it and has learned some from it. I think Tigers is a total waste. The boys sit there confused half the time wondering why they can't just go play.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Where are you in Japan? I'm wondering because we'll be inbound in a few months and looking for a pack and troop as well.

 

We did cub scouts overseas once before. My experience (including as a leader) was that when rules were made about things like parent participation, it was because there had been a problem in the past. Our pack was constantly fighting the problem of parents using us as English language practice, not seeing that their kids had completed the requirements and then yelling at leaders if their kid didn't get an award (even if they hadn't done the work). Odds are that the requirements that you're finding irksome are a reaction to some problem that the pack was experiencing before.

 

A few thoughts.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to ask a Webelos to discuss what he hid to complete the work for a pin. I have sometimes asked of even of the scouts that I do know well. In fact our former cubmaster asked that all scouts tell the den about what they'd done to earn independent awards because it inspired the other scouts to go and do something similar. Could you ask the den leader for a time to sit down (outside den meeting time) and have your son discuss the requirements for these badges. Maybe he could bring in some pictures from when you were doing those activities or any worksheets that he might have done.

 

If your son is working on Arrow of Light, it sounds like he is about fifth grade. Is there some huge deadline for the hike or will be be able to complete this at a later time? It seems a bit unusual for the pack to require a parent in an environment where half the parents deploy/get underway. Have you asked (or better, has your son asked) if there are any alternatives. What if you did something to participate without doing the hike like bring snacks to the end point?

 

Finally, have you looked at the Lone Scout program? This is what we're planning on using between stations since we'll have a pretty big lag time between leaving one and arriving at the next.

[Jenny in Florida]

We made a choice not to allow our son to participate in Boy Scouts because we disagree with many of the BSA's policies. (Let me hasten to clarify: I wholeheartedly support the BSA's right to make their own policies. I just believe the rest of us have a right not to give them our money or any form of public support.)

 

When my kids were younger, I investigated several options, because I knew my son would really love some kind of scouting. We didn't get very far with Earth Scouts, because they were very new at that point and not terribly organized. We became founding members of a Spiral Scouts group, but that went down in flames when the adults couldn't agree on some things and the oversight organization was useless.

 

Eventually, each of mine participated to a limited degree in Camp Fire. I have nothing but great things to say about that organization. However, there was, at that point, no local group, and I have a really rotten record with start ups.

 

For the last couple of years, my son has been a member of a really terrific boys' choir. They wear uniforms and use a curriculum that allows them to earn awards and do all kinds of social things and go on trips and go camping. My husband always jokes that it's like scouts for the musically inclined. For our son, it's perfect.

 

So, scouting does not fit our lives and is not important to us at all.

 

But I suspect you wanted to hear from folks who do participate, right?

[mommytobees]

We're Navy and at Yokosuka.

 

I'm doing some looking and considering... I haven't made a "final" decision.

 

THank you for your thoughts, I am thinking about what I can do to get through this.

 

Kris

[mommytobees]

what's MWR???:confused:

 

MWR, sorry got lost in the land of Letters.

 

MWR stands for Moral Welfare and Recreation

 

Basically, it is a program for active duty and dependents offering classes, events, programs for different things. Different places offer have different MWR focuses. Here my kids can take Japanese classes, ballet, piano, plus sports.

 

Kris

[mommytobees]

Thinking.

 

Not ignoring, thinking. I may pm you in a few days/ a week.

 

THanks,

Kirs

[mommytobees]

(I'm confused though about why your son would be unwilling to discuss with the new leader what he did to earn those pins...? That seems like a fairly minor issue to me.)

 

I have now been told that my son may discuss these pins with his den leader. (gotta love e-mail)

 

I'm going to see if he is willing. MY biggest problem is that my son is VERY shy and really doesn't feel comfortable with his den leader. SIGH. My son has said that he would rather redo ALL of the work so he can just show the leader the work, than try to talk to the leader about the work. I think he's afraid he'll sound like he's lying because he trips over his words and gets "lost". BUT, when it comes to redoing the work, he gets upset and angry (and I don't blame him).

 

I also have to say I agree with what everyone else has said about honestly.

 

_I_ believe that honesty is MORE important than the AOL. I am actually really offended that the den leader doesn't believe MY word, but I do understand why he doesn't. Catch 22. MY problem, not his or my son's.

 

Kris

[sdWTMer]

We are very fortunate here in our area to have a very active cub scout pack! It is wonderful and we have met sooooo many people in our community thru it. We have very dedicated people volunteering their time and resources. I just cannot imagine just not believing the akela.

[mommytobees]

LOL!!! No, I appreciate your view too.

 

On one hand, I want permission to tell this Council and Pack to shove it. I'm taking my marbles and going somewhere else. (Or in this case, my kids!)

 

And, on the other hand I do NOT need permission and am a grown adult. Make a decision and stick with it.

 

I am NOT normally wishy-washy. (insert a stomp of a foot here)

 

Kris

[Murphy101]

oh okay...

 

just a thought, once they turn 12 the Civil Air Patrol will be an option!:)

[*anj*]

I've heard that experiences of Scouting vary greatly from troop to troop for both boys and girls. I've seen how my friends have dealt with troops that weren't up to par for various reasons and up til this year we've not gotten involved in Scouting. But just this year we decided to try it out. Our troop is a ministry of our sister church, and I'm just amazed at the strength of this program. I have a Tiger and a 1st year Boy Scout. All of the Cubs and Boy Scouts meet on the same day at the same time. The Boy Scouts meet year round, but the Cubs only meet during the school year. The church offers Pioneer Club for the girls, again at the same time. All of my children are enjoying it immensely. I think that they have already learned a lot and they're making friends with a whole new bunch of kids.

 

So, how important is it overall?

I think that a person can live to a ripe old age without ever being involved in Scouting. Dh was a cub for less than one year and I was a Brownie for a year, but that's it. So while I don't think it's a necessity, it's just a nice extra.

 

In the OP's case I think I'd either look into that Lone Scout option or just wait a year and return when he's ready for Boy Scouts.

[In The Great White North]

Have you seen this form?

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34-29-30.pdf

 

It is specifically for transferring cub scouts, as their "proof" of what was already earned. You could try presenting it as an "official record" of his accomplishments.

 

You'll notice that this form doesn't even list a hike under the Arrow of Light.

 

When ds did the AoL, he went to a "Snow Derby" with the local troop, not a hike.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

LOL!!! No, I appreciate your view too.

 

On one hand, I want permission to tell this Council and Pack to shove it. I'm taking my marbles and going somewhere else. (Or in this case, my kids!)

 

And, on the other hand I do NOT need permission and am a grown adult. Make a decision and stick with it.

 

I am NOT normally wishy-washy. (insert a stomp of a foot here)

 

Kris

 

I don't think that you sound wishy-washy. I think you sound like someone who has recently gone through all the stress of moving, is currently the solo adult in the house and had certain expectations that have collided with the current situation in the pack.

 

Try to give the pack folks some grace too. As a pack leader, I would probably not have assigned duties to a new pack parent. Not because I didn't trust them, but because I wouldn't want to scare them off. I would prefer to have a few meetings to get to know them, especially at this point in the year when many of the key positions might already be assigned.

 

I found that expectations were hard to manage in our current pack as so many people transferred in from other packs (we're pretty much all military and many of the dads were scouts themselves). So we have to be very clear about how things like campouts or derbys are run because the "always done it this way" assumptions conflict with the "my last pack" expectations.

 

WRT the AOL, What about asking to sit down with the den leader/cub master/advancements chair and saying, "Wally worked on several activity badges while we were traveling and visiting family between packs. He put a lot of work into finishing these badges but he's still finding his place here and feels intimidated at having to do a formal presentation on what he's done, especially since the boys and leaders are quite new to him. I'm sure you remember how stressful it is for the kids when we have to move. Is there a way that he can show that the work was done without having it feel like he's being penalized for doing independent work?"

 

BTW, if they are having any issue over the badges he'd earned previously, you might be able to get your old pack to send you a printout of their internet advancement file for him or a printout from the Webelos Trax or Packmaster if they used that. If you are still registered with the old pack and on good terms with them, they may even be able to award your son the badges and AOL from the old pack/council and then forward records to the Boy Scout Troop showing that it was completed.

 

And FWIW, I wouldn't burn any bridges, because the same folks are going to show up in the Boy Scout troop in a few months. If you feel like you have to step away for a few months, just do it quietly, then come back. And remember that you've been under a bit of stress too. Don't say things in a way that you will regret later. (Also a mini-lesson to myself. I'm only a few months behind you on this train.)