AoPS Pre Algebra or Algebra for 2 years?

[lamolina]

Hello- My son is finishing up 4th grade. He did Math Mammoth from 1-3, and Saxon for 4th and 5th grade math. I think I want to switch him out of Saxon and possibly into AoPS. I did give him the AoPS pre-algebra placement test which he passed, although it seemed very short. My reasons for switching him out of Saxon is that math is a strong subject for him and Saxon seems to provide him very little challenge.

 

I am wondering if we do AoPS, if we should plan to spend 2 years on Pre Algebra or 2 years on Algebra? Or just start and see where it leads? He is young so we aren't in a big hurry.

 

Or if you have any other suggestions please tell me!

[hellen]

Did you also give the prealgebra post-test or the algebra pre-test? If all of those concepts are easy, you might just go straight into alebra. He could also play around on Alcumus a bit. Those are good representative problems.

[Targhee]

I think planning 3 years for the two books is a good idea, if you really need a time frame.

 

What will probably be best, judging by your son's acceleration already, would be to go at his pace and see how long it takes. Might be more or less than you anticipate.

 

DD did preA over 1.5 and Intro to Algebra over 1. I thought she would blow through PreA, but puberty and life circumstances made it so she just needed the time. Most people take 1.5-2 years for AOPS Intr to Algebra, but honestly the more solid you get all those skills and thinking strategies in preA the quicker the Algebra book goes.

 

Highly recommend the online Algebra classes.

 

ETA: bolded

Edited March 31, 2016 by Targhee

[SilverMoon]

I thought Saxon didn't get to prealg until after the 7/6 book? AoPS placement tests are misleading. I wouldn't go from Saxon 5 to AoPS prealg. I'd look at something like Math in Focus 6, Horizons 6, Math Mammoth 6, or something 6 for another year or so first.

[snowbeltmom]

The math problems on the AoPS placement tests are extremely easy compared to the problems in the AoPS textbooks.  I would begin in the pre-algebra book and simply let your son work at his own pace. 

[lamolina]

Thanks. We don't use the 6/7, 7/6 books, we use the school curriculum which is labeled Intermediate 5 and then to Course 1. So if he stays with Saxon he would have 3 more years before he even gets to Algebra. 

[SilverMoon]

Thanks. We don't use the 6/7, 7/6 books, we use the school curriculum which is labeled Intermediate 5 and then to Course 1. So if he stays with Saxon he would have 3 more years before he even gets to Algebra. 

 

If he's 4th now that would put alg in 7th grade, which is still on the early side. I'd probably hold off another year before AoPS prealg. It looks like you'd be skipping at least one entire level to get to a very challenging book. Perhaps look at the placement tests of a few other companies to get a more overall feel of where he's really at?

[deerforest]

I'd suggest trying Beast Academy with him before to see if he'll like the AoPS approach. Even that isn't a great comparison necessarily. DD thrived and blossomed in Beast Academy and its approach, but she isn't that thrilled with AoPS pre-algebra. She thrives in her conceptual math understanding but is not a fan of discovery-based math without cool Beasts to accompany her.

[Spy Car]

I think it would require an unusual level of maturity (and the full involvement of a parent) for a 4/5th Grader to move into AoPS Prealgebra, and especially from a program like Saxon without a transition. 

 

Beast Academy (also from AoPS) would be more appropriate and interesting for the vast majority of student this age, and is still quite challenging. The format is just a lot more kid-friendly. This said as a parent who has used both, and loves AoPS. AoPS is very "wordy," a feature I like (for the appropriate level of maturity), but isn't the approach most kids, especially those unconditioned to this sort of complexity, are likely to savor. AoPS has a more "adult" flavor.

 

BA was written as the gateway program for this age group with good reasons. You might want to combine BA with a second program that focus on "the nuts and bolts" (we used Primary Mathematics/Singapore), as BA IMO was better on providing "challenge" than dealing with the more prosaic aspects of late-elementary math.

 

Bill

[Arcadia]

While my kids like graphic novels for relaxation reading, they have no interest in Beast Academy books other than as a fun read.

 

So its hard to tell if your son might like the colorful comic book style of BA or the bland wordy style of AoPS.

 

My kids started aops prealgebra younger than your oldest. As long as you let him go at his pace and be willing to shelve the book if he is not ready, no harm is done in letting him try the prealgebra book now.

[deerforest]

I actually think the fact that Beast shows the monsters trying, failing, and trying again was a very powerful message for my perfectionist accelerated girl. I don't think she really cared that it was a comic book or not. She just liked the story-based approach. 

 

My girl has a strong natural mathematical sense, but math is pretty much on the bottom of her list of interests. It's not because she's not good at it. She just would much rather do other things.

 

She's in 6th now, and we're finishing pre-algebra this year. We've used AoPS some, but I used it to help further her conceptual understanding, not as a discovery method. So, she's ahead, but certainly not as advanced as some of the HG and PG kids here.

 

She simply doesn't want to spend that much time thinking about math. I tell her about things like math camps and competitions, and she tells me that would be her worst nightmare. It is not what brings her joy, and I think long-term use of AoPS requires a certain love of true joy of math and with the discovery method. 

 

But, there are other options for us so it isn't worth it long-term for us.

 

 

[Alice]

Hello- My son is finishing up 4th grade. He did Math Mammoth from 1-3, and Saxon for 4th and 5th grade math. I think I want to switch him out of Saxon and possibly into AoPS. I did give him the AoPS pre-algebra placement test which he passed, although it seemed very short. My reasons for switching him out of Saxon is that math is a strong subject for him and Saxon seems to provide him very little challenge.

 

I am wondering if we do AoPS, if we should plan to spend 2 years on Pre Algebra or 2 years on Algebra? Or just start and see where it leads? He is young so we aren't in a big hurry.

 

Or if you have any other suggestions please tell me!

 

I would start and see where it leads. We took a year on PreAlgebra, my son was in 6th grade and had gone through Singapore 6B. A fair amount of the PreAlgebra was review for us.Singapore might be more similar to AOPS than Saxon in terms of problem solving so that might have been an easier transition than you would have. I haven't used Saxon so that might not be true, I'm just basing it on perception from what I've heard about Saxon. 

 

Ds will probably take 1.5-2 years to do Algebra. He could probably do it faster but Math is not his main thing even though he likes it. He currently spends about an hour a day 3-4 times a week on Math, sometimes a little more and is on pace to finish about half of the book this year (7th grade). I'm find with that as he is enjoying it and does most of the challenging problems. 

 

Bottom line, I think it's hard to plan out over more than a year or so, at least for me. One of the benefits of homeschooling in my mind is that we can take the time we need, going slower or faster, rather than worry about finishing a curriculum according to a school year time frame. 

[lamolina]

The other issue with this decision is that he takes math at his hybrid school. So I either need to completely pull him out of math there and figure out what to do for math on our own starting in 5th, or let him continue with Saxon at school.

 

If he continues on their schedule he will do Saxon Courses 1-3 in 5th-7th, and hit algebra in 8th grade. I think he could easily do it in 7th, so that leaves me with 5th and 6th grade to do....something! Is there something that wraps up arithmetic/elementary math in a more concise manner than the 3 years of Saxon?

 

 

[hellen]

....

Edited April 6, 2016 by hellen

[lamolina]

We have Math Mammoth 6, wonder if that would be a good option to go through? Do kids usually move into pre-algebra following MM6B?

[texasmama]

My younger son went into AoPS pre-A after SM 5B followed by a short course of Key to Algebra to teach negative numbers and brush up on some other concepts.  He and my other son went through the entire AoPS pre-A in one calendar year, with significant forays into Key to Algebra and a Dolciani algebra text.  I worked through the book with them, and we watched the videos together prior to the chapters.  It took every bit of twelve months to master the material involved.  My younger son was 10 at the time we began.  He has pursued a leisurely pace with AoPS Algebra 1 for the past two years and has gotten stuck on some concepts so he will begin an online class in April to finish up the Algebra book.  He is an outlier in math and in most other ways so YMMV.

[zarabellesmom]

If you do start AoPS, I would choose the prealgebra book. We've started it this year (5th grade) after finishing Beast Academy 5A but we came all the way through Beast Academy so I feel like we have a bit of a heads up on what to expect. The prealgebra book is challenging. Part of using the book successfully I think is having the maturity to struggle with problems that you have no idea how to solve. Beast Academy has really helped my daughter work on her tendency to look at a problem and immediately decide if she can solve it or if she should just cry instead (i wish I was kidding...she was so used to everything coming easily that it was a hard habit to break). Anyway, I would probably check out beast academy first and move forward from there. Even if you feel you have covered the same material based on the BA scope and sequence, I can pretty much promise you will find things there that you have not seen before.

[allyall]

We have Math Mammoth 6, wonder if that would be a good option to go through? Do kids usually move into pre-algebra following MM6B?

 

We almost moved to AOPS pre-algebra after MM6B and after reviewing the sample pages and pretests decided to go ahead and use Math Mammoth 7 A&B which is also a pre-algebra course and he'd been thriving with Math Mammoth. While he liked the idea of the program, I was concerned AoPS would not be a good fit for my son. However I've since seen the online component and that would make it much more palatable perhaps. Not sure what we are doing next year but Maria has a whole post about pre-algebra here: http://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/prealgebra.phpand a post about algebra here: http://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/algebra_1.php

[lamolina]

Thank you all for your input. I still have no clue what we are going to do. His homeschool hybrid program thinks he should continue with Saxon (that is all they use). I am not convinced. 

[SanDiegoMom]

My ds moved to AOPS Pre-A after 2years of Singapore intensive practice. Even then it took him a looong time and definitely was more challenging. From what I have heard of Saxon, I'm not sure that the transition would be very easy. Maybe a year of Singapore 6A and 6B (or even 5A and 5B- we skipped 6 as I'd heard it was mainly a review year and 5 was challenging enough!). My ds started Pre-A fall of third grade and finished November of 4th, and now feels like he's flying through algebra. The skills he learned in Pre-A helped him tremendously.

[Julie of KY]

I don't really know what you should do, but wanted to reiterate some of the thoughts above.

 

IF you think he's ready for prealgebra, I see no reason you can't do AoPS. I do think it is likely to be a hard transition from where you are at. Take it one step at a time and let him set the pace (in other words, don't schedule the pace at all - it won't go according to plan).

 

Don't be fooled - the placement tests are deceptively easy. The books are tough.

 

Consider Beast as a transition. Not all the 5th grade books are out yet, but even the 4th grade ones would be great.

[Loesje22000]

We did for grade 7+8 AoPS Pre Algebra + Understanding Geometry (CTC) it took dd about 18 months  to finish both books without Alcumus, and without Challenging Problems.

AoPS Intro to Algebra will take us 2 full years still without Alcumus & Challenging Problems.

 

DD is not extreem well in Math, just likes the way AoPS teaches math.(or better the way we use AoPS, we don't spend 1-2 hours on 1-2 problems)

[snowbeltmom]

Thank you all for your input. I still have no clue what we are going to do. His homeschool hybrid program thinks he should continue with Saxon (that is all they use). I am not convinced. 

 

Fwiw, when we began homeschooling, I started out with Saxon.  In my opinion, Saxon does not develop problem solving skills at all.  After using Saxon for three months, I switched my two younger kids ( 7 and 9 at the time) to Singapore and my 11 year old to AoPS Introduction to Algebra (He had already completed the Saxon algebra book and the AoPS pre-algebra book had not been released)

 

I am not familiar with Beast as that came out too late for my kids.  However, I feel that Singapore Challenging Word Problems prepared them extremely well for AoPS.  My two younger kids finished Singapore Elementary series through level 6 (Including the Challenging Word Problem books as a supplement.)  My middle son moved into AoPS Algebra with no problems.  My daughter was younger (10) than my boys were when she completed Singapore and AoPS Pre-algebra has just been released, so she worked through that book before she started algebra.

 

If your son has trouble with AoPS pre-algebra, my guess is the trouble will come from lack of general problem solving skills since his current program does a poor job of developing that skill.  If this turns out to be the case, you may want to try Singapore (and maybe start at the 3rd grade level) in order to develop those problem solving skills and then go back to AoPS.

 

Good luck.

 

[lamolina]

Thanks everyone! I learn so much from everyone's ideas and perspective. I have ordered Beast Academy 4 and we are going to go through that starting this summer, hopefully we will be able to do 5 as well depending on timing. I think that will still allow him to start algebra in way less than 3 years but still have a strong foundation. We shall see how it goes!!