Pre-med school

[Quiver0f10]

Does what school your dd/ds attend for pre-med matter greatly in what chance they will have in being accepted to a top tier school for med school? If they went to state university, but got fantastic grades, would they still have a shot at that top tier med school?

 

I know other stuff comes into play such as sports, community service, volunteer etc, but I want to know his chances if he chooses the U of A over a well known school.

 

Thanks!

[Michelle in AL]

From what my pediatrician husband says, you have a better shot getting good grades at a regular academic school than going to a rigorous school and doing OK. He also advises against taking the easy way out, such as taking hard science classes at a different university or a comm. college because they're easier there. The medical schools see through this and it will be a big mark against you. They see this as not willing to work hard. (my brother actually went against this advise and did not get in anywhere :001_huh: Doing medical related internships or research work helps too, especially if its at a top tier medical university outside your undergrad. Often the people you meet doing research or such can help you get into their alma maters etc by recommending you. Of course they'll only do this if they like you. My husband did this in undergrad and the professor he worked for went to bat for him when it was time to get in (my husband was a little bit of a trouble maker).

HTH some!

[Quiver0f10]

Thank you, I appreciate the help!

[HollyinNNV]

Does what school your dd/ds attend for pre-med matter greatly in what chance they will have in being accepted to a top tier school for med school? If they went to state university, but got fantastic grades, would they still have a shot at that top tier med school?

 

I know other stuff comes into play such as sports, community service, volunteer etc, but I want to know his chances if he chooses the U of A over a well known school.

 

Thanks!

 

I agree with Michelle. I'd also say that whenever you go somewhere highly competitive, with a massive program, you risk being unable to obtain the same experiences as someone at a smaller program. Here's an example

 

If you train at the med school associated with a big name hospital (Mayo, Mass General etc.) you are in effect competing for experience with the numerous residents and fellows for cases/experience. If you go to a med school with no fellows/less residents-you may have the opportunity for more experience.

 

It is the same with undergraduates. If you go somewhere with lots of masters, ph.d and post docs, you are competing with all of them for opportunities.

 

It may seem weird, but dh went to an undergraduate bio program where there was no med school and no masters students. The upside was he got to have the profs full attention. He had no problem finding research opportunities.

 

Then he went to med school where there were very few residents and few phd. Same situation. However, the best part was residency. He went somewhere that had no fellows. He got to do a ton! In fact, he met a resident from the Mayo who was worked to death, had no time to study and did far less cases overall and in an important subspecialty area, than dh.

 

So watch out when you are looking at opportunities for prestigious colleges/med school/residencies. There is far more to this decision than a name.

HTH,

Holly

 

PS-Do not think that because you are enrolled in a program, that there is some type of equitable way of distributing opportunities. It is cutthroat!

Edited September 26, 2008 by HollyinNNV
forgot the PS

[hsmamainva]

My 9yo has been talking about becoming a doctor for 2 years now, so I'm reading this thread with interest!!!

 

One thing that my hubby and I are hoping he can do is attend an in-state public college for his undergrad so that he can do it without any student loans.

 

Medical school will be very expensive and we don't want him to rack up alot of money in student loans getting his bachelor's, only to pile more on for medical school.

 

Is this something to consider as well?

[Quiver0f10]

I agree with Michelle.

 

HTH,

Holly

 

 

Thank you!

[Miss Marple]

Yes, it makes a difference. I concur with both Michelle and Holly. You can also begin doing some research about the college your student wants to attend as well as the medical school desired.

 

An undergraduate university/college will be able to tell you what percentage of their "pre-med" students get into medical school on the first try, second try, etc. They can also tell you which medical schools took the most of their students, etc. These were questions my dh asked before beginning his journey to medical school. He was able to attend a private religiously affiliated university which had a greater than 90% acceptance rate for their undergraduate pre-med students. He also did a bit of research with a professor in his major field (chemistry) and pubished a paper with that professor and took higher level math courses than needed for entrance into medical school.

 

The other thing to consider is what "top tier" medical school really means. Many of those are schools which produce researchers rather than practicing physicians. There are many state affiliated schools which have very good reputations. You can ask the medical schools how their residents placed in the "match" - that's where they choose residency programs. That's a good indicator of whether the school has a good reputation or not.

 

I don't think going to a state school as an undergrad would decrease the chances of attending a very fine medical school as long as the student took rigorous courses while there. But, you might want to check with the medical school you have in mind to see how they view the Univ. of Ark.

[Gwen in VA]

I strongly encourage you to follow CynthiaOK's advice -- call up each and every school your son is considering and ask about their med school acceptance rate. Also ask how many students are accepted -- you want a school that not only has a good acceptance rate but also has more than a handful applying each year.

 

After talking with the admissions office folks, ask to talk with the pre-med advisor. Most schools have one. This is probably a biology or chemistry professor who works with the pre-meds, advising them specifically on choosing the "right" classes, getting the "right" experiences, and selecting which schools to apply to. The pre-med advisor will probably be much more able to answer specific pre-med questions. And if the college in question does NOT have a pre-med advising system, think twice about having your son go there.

 

Med school acceptance rates at selective college can get as high as over 90%. I assume some college out there has an acceptance rate of near 0%, so the range is wide.

 

Many small liberal arts colleges have excellent acceptance rates, so your son shouldn't feel that he has to go to a research university if he doesn't want to.

 

Your child should also plan on doing extensive volunteer work in the medical area. Apparently medical schools really really prefer students with that experience.

[Quiver0f10]

His goal is research so he wants to look to schools that will offer him the best chance at that. We will be making a list of schools and making some calls. Thanks for the help!

[8filltheheart]

An unusual major (in high schoolers' minds anyway) that has a high percentage of acceptance into med school is chemical engineering. Just thought I'd share that tid-bit.

[Elohcin]

My husband is a family doc, who went to a private college for math and physics and then was going to get a phd in math. He ended up at the masters level not wanting to continue. He took all his catch up science course at U of A ( a great school, which I went to, too!) and ended up going to a really great med school (one that only took 15 out-of-staters and 150 in-staters (he was out of state)). It may be early to be thinking about this, but the med school you go to can also be influenced by the type of medicine you want to practice, my husband wanted small town medicine. His med school had an outstanding rural program. We really like where we are, but oh my is it a long haul!

HTH,

[Quiver0f10]

Thanks for the info, very helpful!

[Alice]

Couple of thoughts to add...

 

I don't think it really matters that much where you go if they have a reasonably good science program. I know a lot of schools today have a "pre-med" track. Where I went didn't have that. I double majored in Chemistry and Biology and I was glad that I didn't really have a pre-med advisor. I was glad for the focus more on science than on just getting into med school (which I think sometimes can be a downside to "pre-med" programs). You mentioned your son is interested in research, you may want to look at what opportunities he will have at the school he is going to. Sometimes it seems like a big state university can offer a lot of research opportunities, but those may be difficult to get or competitive. I went to a small school and was able to be involved in biochemistry research for three years and two summers. I basically just asked the professor if I could work with him, he said yes and I did. He became a mentor to me and I was able to win grants to do the work during the summer. Having that experience was invaluable to me as far as education and I think greatly enhanced my resume in applying to med school...and I don't know if I would have had the same opportunity at a big school.

 

Also, you asked about money. I would ABSOLUTELY counsel any child of mine to try to have no or very little debt going into medical school. I was lucky enough to have a full scholarship to college so had no debt...but I chose a very pricey expensive medical school. At the time the debt didn't seem like that big a deal as everyone there was going into debt. Four years later I had $160,000plus in debt and I'm still paying it off (and will be for awhile). I'm not complaining about that...I made my choice and I am blessed to have my job. I am also very grateful that I didn't have undergraduate debt on top of that. But I would counsel anyone going into med school to at least consider the debt seriously. It does limit your options upon finishing school.

 

Finally, I would say that I've worked on the entrance commitees for both medical school (at Georgetown) and for residency (at UVA). It's very difficult making those decisions as every application is from an excellent student and so many of them are alike. The basics have to be there...strong science background and grades. Research is a definite plus. The MCATs do matter. Grades are important. But even after sorting through applications you have more that have great grades, good MCATs and have done all the science stuff than can be accepted.

 

One thing we looked for is something that shows that the person has an idea of what medicine is really like, that this is really something they want to do. So many people going into med school or who are pre-med are doing it because it's expected by a parent or are doing it because they think it's a safe secure job, etc. So any kind of volunteer work or other experience in the medical field is a real plus. Many students do this though so it always helped to see someone who had done more than a "token" volunteering opportunity or internship. A medical missions trip, a continuing role in volunteering, work as an EMT, etc. are all great. I volunteered at a Children's Hospital through high school and college and I think that was a plus for me. I went on two medical missions trips (to El Salvador and Nepal) in med school and those were very helpful in getting into residency.

 

The other thing that I think also helped was anything that made that student stand out. Med schools (and residencies) really don't want 100 students that are all science geeks (I was a science geek so I can say that. :)). So anyone who had some other passion or experience or interest that was sincere really stood out. Some of the best students in my class were those who had not majored in science and who had done other things in life. The best resident in my class had been an art major at a small liberal arts college before deciding to go back to school. Not to say your son shouldn't major in science (I love science and obviously I went the traditional route) but that if he does have some other passion like music or art or wants to study abroad but is worried about taking time away from pre-med studies that he should still pursue them.

 

I should say it's been awhile since I applied to med school :) (I went from 1993-1997, residency from 1997-2000.) so things may have changed. If your son has any other questions feel free to PM or email me.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Alice

[Quiver0f10]

Thanks, ALice. Very good info and I will be thinking about it for a while. I will have my son PM you if he does have questions. Thanks for the offer!

[Vicki]

My oldest ds is working on a double doctorate at UTSA Health Science Center, in San Antonio. He took all the classes he could take at our community college and then tranferred to UTPB, a small local university. He did summer research on DNA at the University of Alabama. The program paid for his trip there, lodging, and gave him $3,200 at the end of the 10 week program. While at UTPB he did research too. He's been in San Antonio for 4 years now. He is getting one of his doctorates in Biochemistry. He does research on tumor suppression. His schooling is paid for and he receives $26,000 a year to live on. Plus he has attended seminars and spent one summer in Canada doing research. He has been on the admittance committee for 3 of those 4 years.

I will try and find the link to the summer research programs. I don't think my son would mind answering any of your questions. If you're ever in San Antonio he would probably take you on a tour of the his lab. My youngest son loves to go to the lab with him when we are visiting.

God bless,

Vicki

[Quiver0f10]

Wow, impressive, Vicki! I wasn't sure how one would go about finding research options, so that link would be helpful. I would think the pre-med advisors would also help in this area?

 

Thanks!

[LibraryLover]

Interesting thread!

 Some kids here are doing volunteer research in Nepal, and on other some hsing baords people are like "He plays Halo all day".

[Belinda]

He also advises against taking the easy way out, such as taking hard science classes at a different university or a comm. college because they're easier there. The medical schools see through this and it will be a big mark against you.

 

How can you figure out how these schools compare? The med schools may know, but how can we compare the rigor of different community college, state, and university science courses (pre-med reqs)?

 

Just found ourselves suddenly on the pre-med route with our conservatory of music school new grad.

 

We're checking our post-bacc. $$$ and others. Love some sage advice.

 

Belinda

[Belinda]

Any opinions/experience with University of Uniformed Services Health Science medical school?

[MeaganS]

My husband is currently at UAMS as a second year med student, so we were just answering these questions for ourselves a few years ago. I'll share our experience and conclusions, and you can take them as you will.

 

My husband and I went to a private religious university and he did very well. He was a Business Major because he decided to go to med school after he had already completed a fair amount of his major requirements towards business. From what we can tell, it actually helped him to have a non-science major because it made him seem more interesting to the interviewers. He made a fantastic score on the MCAT and ended up getting accepted at a few different schools, including a name-brand school.

 

From what we could tell, it is better to excel at a regular state school than to be mediocre at a fantastic school. At a state school your son would be more likely to be able to stand out to his professors, get good letters of recommendation, and lots of experiences. And that's basically the same conclusion we came to with med school. At my husband's med school, he is in the top 25% in his class and for his 3rd and 4th year rotations, he will have the chance to have an incredibly low attending/intern ration (like 2 or 3 to 1). We will also be able to graduate with less than $150,000 in debt rather than $300,000 or $400,000 like the name brand schools were projecting.

 

So I guess my answer is, send him to a respectable school, but don't stress about it too much. I'd try to help him minimize debt, because unless he becomes a world-renowned super-specialist, a name-brand education most likely won't pay off.

[tex-mex]

Doing medical related internships or research work helps too, especially if its at a top tier medical university outside your undergrad. Often the people you meet doing research or such can help you get into their alma maters etc by recommending you. Of course they'll only do this if they like you. My husband did this in undergrad and the professor he worked for went to bat for him when it was time to get in (my husband was a little bit of a trouble maker).

HTH some!

:iagree:

 

My husband worked as a Clinical Research Coordinator in the Pulmonary Dept at UC Irvine for a number of years. The dept would have undergrad (pre-med) students work with research. One of the mandatory requirements was that the undergrads had to help with an American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) journal submission -- be the grunt with lab work, collecting data, and then travel to the annual conference and help assist the Dept head with the presentation. Great experience! My husband was in charge of them and was highly impressed by the caliber of intelligence. (My hubs had a B.S. in Kinesiology and was a MENSA member as a teen. But these kids were phenomenal.)

 

The dept only had 6-7 undergrads per year. It was very competitive to be selected. The diversity of the group were slanted toward minorities (not sure why -- but for 8+ years, this was the case?) with many undergrads being middle eastern, asian, hispanic, and maybe 1-2 anglo (who were usually women). We still keep in touch with many of the undergrads and many of them have gone on to amazing careers. One notable undergrad was a young man who emigrated to the USA in the 80's from Iran. He ended up being a dual M.D./Ph.D candidate at USC Medical School. Brilliant young man. And yes, the dept head always went to bat for his undergrads in helping them to top medical schools with letters of recommendation and more.

Edited June 26, 2011 by tex-mex

[FaithManor]

I agree with Holly and Michelle. It meshes with what we learned when dd was researching pre-med.

 

The M-CAT really does matter. A huge M-CAT score can open doors and so if a smaller, lesser known school with a good reputation offers more face time with professors, more tutoring, smaller classroom sizes, study groups, etc. it may very well be worth looking at.

 

The other thing to consider is good fit. Honestly, some kids will just THRIVE on all that competition with the big teaching hospitals, IVY programs, etc. Others will end up losing their love of medicine. So much of how well the student will do in med school is related to how well they thrived in under-grad. Given the rigors of med school, it is going to be monumentally difficult to proceed through med-school, internship, residency, and specialization if one is already burned out in the under-grad program because you are lost in the sea that is known as pre-med.

 

If you haven't already, go take a look at the college board. We've got a med school student that has posted there on a med-school thread and there is some wonderful insight to be gleaned from those posts.

 

My final thought is that getting into med-school can be practically dehumanizing. There, I said it! So, make sure that your student graduates from homeschool with a really defined, confident sense of self. The kind of self that can reinvent the wheel and get excited about something else without feeling like a failure. I say this because there are a small number of slots and many applicants. It's similar in the music performance field. I know people who did not make it to conservatory or to their top tier LAC of choice and allowed that to define them as "failures". This stuck with them the rest of their lives. They did not see the bigger picture and they are miserable living with "what if". The reality is that in any given year, the difference between those who make Julliard, Oberlin, Eastman, New England Conservatory, etc. and those who don't, can literally be miniscule and somebody has to be the loser in this high stakes game. UGH!

 

Aren't I the perveyor of glad tidings?

 

Faith

[creekland]

This thread is almost three years old, right? Of course, not much of the info has changed. ;)

[Quiver0f10]

This thread is almost three years old, right? Of course, not much of the info has changed. ;)

 

 

I was suprised to see the thread :D The funny thing is my son changed his mind and starts college in August majoring in Civil Engineering

[creekland]

I was suprised to see the thread :D The funny thing is my son changed his mind and starts college in August majoring in Civil Engineering

 

Ok, THAT is a significant change! ;)

 

Hubby (my resident Civil Engineer) says to wish him well!

[Quiver0f10]

Ok, THAT is a significant change! ;)

 

Hubby (my resident Civil Engineer) says to wish him well!

 

 

Thanks! :)