Help! A plan for homeschool high school for STEM oriented kid?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am leaning towards homeschool for high school but am intimidated at the prospect of providing a rigorous program that would be accepted at good to selective colleges for probable STEM major.

 

I already am thinking of using PA Homeschoolers for some courses, WTM Academy for others, and maybe Kolbe Academy coupled with some home courses with AOPS and what not.

 

Is it mandatory for a kid to use dual enrollment in community college/university for sciences with a lab to get accepted to selective universities or is PA Homeschoolers enough with good AP score?

 

Anyone willing to share their path for a STEM kid who wants good to selective college? We also don't have tons to spend but can spend maybe up to several thousand a year for this.

 

 

Did you use any transcript services such as Kolbe or others or just use your own?

 

Any help appreciated:) :svengo:

[Janice in NJ]

Good Morning,

 

When you say, "STEM", do you have any more info? I realize your son is still young, but are you thinking science, tech, engineering, or math? 

 

Has your son taken courses from WTM, PA Hsers, Kolbe or AOPS yet? If so, what made the courses a good fit? What would you have liked to see that didn't happen? IOW, what might have made the courses a better fit? If your son hasn't taken courses through those services, may I ask what you are hoping will happen by outsourcing?

 

How do you feel about DE? Do you have any good options nearby? 

 

If you don't homeschool, are you comfortable with the alternatives? Do you think your son would have a good shot at a good or selective school if you don't decide to homeschool high school?

 

When you say "good" college, can you provide name of some schools that you consider good? And the same for "selective"? It's fine if you don't have any specifics in mind. It just makes it easier to offer advice based on where you are in this process.  :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited March 6, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Good Morning,

 

When you say, "STEM", do you have any more info? I realize your son is still young, but are you thinking science, tech, engineering, or math? 

 

He is only in 8th grade and it is safe to say he will not have an idea of which major for quite some time. Therefore, I want a plan that will not rule out a STEM major at a good to selective college.

 

Has your son taken courses from WTM, PA Hsers, Kolbe or AOPS yet? If so, what made the courses a good fit? What would you have liked to see that didn't happen? IOW, what might have made the courses a better fit? If your son hasn't taken courses through those services, may I ask what you are hoping will happen by outsourcing?

 

He has not taken any school year courses with above since he is going to school currently. The providers I listed above seem to have the reputation and rigor we are looking for. We prefer secular providers but will consider some like Kolbe which seems doable. I hope to gain some credibility to his course work and also to ease the work for me. I would also plan on taking SAT, subject SAT, and some AP.

 

How do you feel about DE? Do you have any good options nearby? 

 

We do have some options nearby that are good but are more costly than the above providers and a little inconvenient. We prefer not to use them if possible. Where we live does not pay for or subsidize dula enrollment unless in a public school.

 

If you don't homeschool, are you comfortable with the alternatives? Do you think your son would have a good shot at a good or selective school if you don't decide to homeschool high school?

 

He could stay where he is but it is a pressure cooker of a school and I worry he will be burned out and too stressed if he stays. Now it is possible he may find next year easier too but I am unsure. I also worry that he will have almost no time to explore any of interests.

 

When you say "good" college, can you provide name of some schools that you consider good? And the same for "selective"? It's fine if you don't have any specifics in mind. It just makes it easier to offer advice based on where you are in this process.  :001_smile:

 

I am new at exploring the college scene. It would be nice if he could get into schools like state schools like Penn State or schools like Cornell or Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or Georgia Tech or Virgnia Tech. I also would want him to at least meet the criteria to apply to MIT or Stanford but realize they are very selective.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

[wapiti]

I have a handy link for one example, Kathy's kids:  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/161440-mit/?p=1559496 (the rest of that thread is interesting too)

Edited March 6, 2016 by wapiti

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Do you think the lab part still holds true? I would prefer labs at home with PA Homeschoolers or what not. 

[daijobu]

 

 

Is it mandatory for a kid to use dual enrollment in community college/university for sciences with a lab to get accepted to selective universities or is PA Homeschoolers enough with good AP score?

 

Anyone willing to share their path for a STEM kid who wants good to selective college? We also don't have tons to spend but can spend maybe up to several thousand a year for this.

 

 

Did you use any transcript services such as Kolbe or others or just use your own?

 

I think your plan of using AoPS, WTM Academy and PA Homeschoolers is  a good one.  (I don't have personal experience with Kolbe.)

 

We don't have immediate plans to enroll in CC.  We're counting on AP scores and extracurriculars to validate, but we haven't ruled out CC yet.  

 

You can look at my signature for dd14's freshman year.  Next year, she's planning to study math with me at home using AoPS (precalc next year) and a few classes (history and Spanish and Java with data structures) at Stanford Online High School.  She'll continue with her writing tutor, and maybe take AP stats from PA homeschoolers.  She'll take either bio or AP bio. 

 

Junior year will probably be AP calculus BC and the AP physics series, Spanish 3 and some other history, depending on how she liked her classes at SOHS last year.  

 

More math senior year and more of everything else.  If she takes regular bio her sophomore year, maybe AP bio this year?  Or some other science.  

 

As far as transcripts, we've always used myhomeschooltranscripts.com.  I like that I get a lifetime subscription for as many kids as I want, and I've already had to use it many times for applications to high school, SOHS, and academic summer camps, and internships.  It's also a great scaffold for record keeping.  Everytime I receive a test score, I record it immediately into their transcript.  

 

 

HTH!  

[regentrude]

DD majors in physics at an extremely selective college. She did not have any APs, but dual enrollment at a 4 year university: 3 semesters physics, 5 semesters French, 2 semesters English. The rest was taught at home, no online classes. We did math with AoPS textbooks.

She applied with a homeschool transcript I wrote; we did not use any outside service for that.

Edited March 7, 2016 by regentrude

[Brad S]

DD majors in physics at an extremely selective college. She did not have any APs, but dual enrollment at a 4 year university: 3 semesters physics, 5 semesters French, 2 semesters English. The rest was taught at home, no online classes. We did math with AoPS textbooks.

She applied with a homeschool transcript I wrote; we did not use any outside service for that.

 

May I ask if those were the numbers of credits before college application or before completing high school?  Thanks!

 

[Jen in NY]

My dds are both engineering undergrads. They did AoPS for math (classes, because I was a music major that didn't have math past high school....), AP sciences and Calc through PAHomeschoolers, and dd2 took Multi and Chem at the local CC senior year because she wanted to. They self-studied for a couple of humanities AP tests and did well. They also had various experiences in the community - STEM experiences at the local Unis, physics and astronomy camps and volunteering, jobs, black belts in TKD, various music experiences, and internships. They had strong standardized test scores.

 

I don't think it's mandatory for kids to have dual enrollment (dd#1 didn't really have anything relevant in dual enrollment), but it is important to have strong standardized test scores (some schools require SAT IIs), good recommendations (professor, mentor, boss, whatever...), and good dual enrollment grades if classes are taken. But there will always be the occasional outlier. :) A total picture of academic strength and intellectual curiosity will be more important than one specific type of class or activity vs. another.

 

We used our own transcript. If you want to pm me your e-mail addy I can send you a scrubbed version.

 

Good Luck! Your plan sounds strong already!

 

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Jen in NY

[Janice in NJ]

Thinking about this earlier rather than later is a great idea.

 

Sometimes homeschooling can be very humanities intensive in high school. If you look at the advice given to parents considering high school at home, it often starts with history, literature, and writing. There is MUCH to say about these with much to debate surrounding best practice. It takes up a huge amount of the conversation. What to do and how to do it. Foreign languages - especially Latin and Greek - also merit a lot of discussion among classical homeschoolers. Modern foreign languages are encouraged for college acceptance as well. Then sometimes (not always, but sometimes) it almost seems as if math and lab sciences are tacked on in an oh-and-by-the-way fashion. As in, "Don't forget you need to do math and science too. It's going to be hard to do it well, but there it is. Don't forget to do that too." 

 

And then the discussion seems to drop off. Yes, there is much debate about which biology program to use. And math produces a lot of hand-wringing about which programs are more rigorous than others which results in hurt feelings if certain programs are labeled less rigorous. But apart from the anxiety, there aren't a lot of deep discussions about mathematics and rigorous science - at least not as deep as the humanities discussions. For example, I have seen detailed, heated debates about which translation of Homer is the "best" while folks (seemingly simultaneously) try to argue that there isn't much difference between MUS, Teaching Textbooks, Chalkdust, and AoPS.

 

Math is math. 

And To Kill a Mockingbird and A Portrait of the Artist As a Young Man are interchangeable. A bildungsroman is a bildungsroman. Oh my. Sigh. (Sorry - sarcasm doesn't work on message boards. See me taking cover...)

 

I believe the reason math doesn't get the objective treatment/discussion it deserves is that most of the leading/published voices in the homeschooling community have degrees in the humanities. That's what they loved. I have found few that even made it to calculus in college. Calculus is actually considered by many to be the FIRST course in real mathematics in the sequence. As in, everything else is a warm up. For a minute, consider what would happen if we spent 12 years making everyone work on their phonics and spelling (K-11). And then we let a few of them read Shakespeare their senior year. No wonder math gets a bad rap. I HATE PHONICS AND SPELLING! What a YAWNER! (OK, OK, a good proof-based curriculum for Alg I, II, Geo, and Pre-Calc, lets kids get a glimpse into what reading Shakespeare might be like.) But then gobs of kids barely manage to get through that "Limit stuff" at the beginning of their Calc I class. They never discover the joy of reading Shakespeare either. So many people think they hate something they have never seen. It's as if you spent your whole life pounding nails into boards for practice, but then you never build anything! They may get a good grade in Calc I, and think they have it! But there is much to be discovered in that whole epsilon-delta business. Beautiful things! Keys to other things.

 

Sigh.

 

My knee-jerk advice? If you really think your child is headed into a STEM field, focus on math. Just put that big rock into the jar first. Plan to build everything else around that rock. Imagine yourself building everything else around that rock. How does that make you feel? Did you like math? How do you feel about teaching it? How do you feel about tutoring it? Can you see yourself successfully navigating this? Please take a look at the samples for AoPS. It's not a step-up from most math programs. It's a leap. It's terrific. But it  was written for a unique student. It's not a main-stream program. IMO, it requires that the student have a mentor/teacher who knows what they are doing. If you decide to use it, I would recommend that you enroll your son in one of their summer courses. They are intense. You will discover within a couple of weeks if it's going to be a good fit. If it isn't, you will have time to make alternative plans. The WTM Academy also offers courses using the texts; I would recommend that you administer the placement test and then email the teacher if you still have questions.  

 

Math and writing.

From what I have seen over the past 15+ years, those are the two stumbling blocks for homeschooling high school. Get those two right, and so many other things settle into place. 

 

When you say your local public option is a "pressure cooker", what do you mean? Are you worried that your son is going to get lost in the shuffle and fail to thrive? Is it because he is a gentle soul who probably won't be psyched to compete to be at the tippy top of the system? Plenty of kids hate competitive environments and thrive in collaborative ones.

 

Or are you concerned that your son won't be happy doing immense piles of school work all the time? Plenty of kids think school is hopelessly boring. Getting them to devote 10 hours a day to it is a tug of war that parents tire of trying to win. 

 

Or are there other reasons? (You don't need to share them, but I would encourage you to try to examine them - sans emotions - on your own.)

 

As far as college admissions goes, start searching - or better yet, assign the job to your son. Visit the college websites and find out what they require. What does their wish-list look like for applicants? What do their test scores look like for admitted students? You can also just start here:

 

Big Future - College Search - Find colleges and universities by major, location, type, more.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-search?navid=gh-cs

 

I would also recommend that you take a practice SAT test yourself. Really, just do it. (No one needs to know how it went.)

 

New SAT Practice Tests | SAT Suite of Assessments – The College Board

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/sat/practice/full-length-practice-tests

 

One of the things that I wish folks had suggested to me when I started hsing high school was to just go explore the targets up close. Standardized tests are just targets. Stop wondering about it, and just go see what it actually looks like. After you take it, think about how you feel. Are you energized? Are you psyched to explore and learn how to read, write, and do math with your son? If not, how do you feel? Four years is a long time. The days, weeks, and months can get very long. Kids get stuck - even when they are enrolled in online classes - and they often need an adult to come along side and help them get unstuck. 

 

We had mixed results with online classes. Some were great. Some weren't. And it wasn't always the teacher's fault. Sometimes it was, but sometimes my kids just tuned out. EASY to do. The teacher can't see what is going on through the screen. Sometimes the whole thing just collapses into watching TV. Very non-educational. Frustrating. But life goes on. And it has here. All is going very well with all three kids. But I would be lying if I said that homeschooling high school was a collection of wonderful days. Over all, it was wonderful. There were plenty - and I mean PLENTY of days - that were SO VERY NOT WONDERFUL! 

 

I hope this post wasn't discouraging (It certainly wasn't meant to be.) Just trying to help you think this through with your eyes wide open!

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[snowbeltmom]

My son did not have any dual enrolled classes on his homemade transcript.  He did, however, have a lot of outside validation despite not taking any dual enrolled classes: He had extremely high test scores on the SAT and three SAT II's, AMC/AIME scores, & AP scores of 5 in physics, chemistry, stats, and BC calc.  He also was able to conduct research his last 2.5 years of high school which resulted in multiple publications (listed as a second author, not first) in highly regarded journals.  

 

During the application process, I submitted a homeschool profile, a one-page transcript, and a course description document.  He was accepted everywhere he applied.

 

AoPS math and classes with PA Homeschoolers have prepared him extremely well for college. 

 

Good luck!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

In regards to his school being a pressure cooker, I literally mean it and it has this reputation. We have been there 4 years and he is taking first half of pre-calculus and the second year of AP world history as well as chemistry, physics, and biology. If he stays for 9th grade he would only have to take one science, AP government and the second half of pre-calculus as well as his other courses. He has been working like Hercules the past 4 years and has done very well but has almost no free time:( He has been stressed a bit sometimes more than others and I have offered to pull him out before. He does not know whether he wants to stay or leave because the school has good points and bad points such as good teachers and lots of good kids and too much stress and too long of a school day-they get out at 4 pm. I worry he is going to burn out and have his free childhood time squandered. I feel he will have almost no time to explore his interests which upsets me:(

 

I appreciate any insights:)

[Janice in NJ]

Following up - complete disclosure here.  :001_smile:

 

We did not get to enjoy AoPS here. (I own ALL the books. I love them!) I didn't know about the program when my oldest started high school. My daughter would not have appreciated the approach. While my youngest son had the temperament to be a mathematician (He actually toyed with pursuing physics/astronomy; he would have been a marvelous fit.), he did not like the AoPS class when we tried it. We tried it for about 2-3 weeks, and he hated the pace. It was FAST. And this kid is a slow burn. The text just flew by in the chat box; the other kids were used to the format, and they were COOKIN!  :001_smile:

 

I should have taken the time to work through the texts with him without the class, but it was already pretty evident that he was moving toward a career in organ performance. And I knew better than to choose an intensive program for math. There just wasn't enough hours in the day. He was practicing the organ for over two hours a day as a freshman, and that didn't include travel time to church (We don't have a pipe organ in the house. giggle.). He was also a competitive piano player - another 2+ hours a day. And he also played the violin - over an hour of practice with youth orchestra on Saturdays. 

 

We set AoPS aside. It made me so terribly sad. But hsing is like that. It's tough on the parents. Supporting other people requires a lot of maturity; there's little room for self-gratification. Not for wimps!  

 

Anyway - I speak about AoPS because it is a great program for the right student.

But plenty of kids do very well without it. Mine did. 

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited March 8, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[Janice in NJ]

Wait. Are you saying your 8th grader is taking Precalculus, AP History, AND high school Chemistry, Physics, and Biology all at the same time? What about English? A Foreign Language? 

 

I'm stepping out of this conversation. 

Wow. Please ignore everything I've said. I've never heard of this.

 

[Arcadia]

From what I understood from parents with kids in the private version here, it is good for kids who just want to follow along one of the "predetermined" academic tracks and have fun in their afterschool activities. It is not as good a fit for kids who want much more control of their academic path. There is academic tracking but not differentiation in the classroom unless your child happen to have a great teacher.

 

What I also gather from the forums here and also from real life "gossip" is to keep your child's lab books/reports for high school. You never know when work samples might be asked for.

 

Wait. Are you saying your 8th grader is taking Precalculus, AP History, AND high school Chemistry, Physics, and Biology all at the same time? .

Which is why I know which school OP is referring to. We have a private clone here of the public version. Hubby and I went to the open house out of curiosity and we know parents of kids there.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Wait. Are you saying your 8th grader is taking Precalculus, AP History, AND high school Chemistry, Physics, and Biology all at the same time? What about English? A Foreign Language? 

 

I'm stepping out of this conversation. 

Wow. Please ignore everything I've said. I've never heard of this.

It is crazy what his school does but he has gotten some enjoyment in this school and lately some stress. I am having him repeat first half of pre-calc A this year to slow him down despite getting an A last year since he was hyper-accelerated on school's recommendation 4 years ago against my better judgement. The school has been doing chem, physics, bio with the kids past 4 years and apparently after completion of 3 years of each of those science it would be equivalent to a regular high school course but they do not get credit for that on high school transcript unlike the high school level maths or world history or economics. They use Saxon math the ones that incorporate geometry.

 

They do take a pretty rigorous english, foreign language (he has been taking Mandarin for past 2 years and Latin prior), economics, and elective which is easy-he choose Intro to Film. Some kids choose to do AP as elective and I wanted my kid not to be any more stressed.

 

I forgot to add the AP world history is a 2 year course and we choose to slow him down both this and last in year math first by choosing 2 year version of pre-calc and second by having him repeat the first half of pre-calc this year. The whole aim of the school is to prep kids for AP exams from early on (5th grade) and kids must take 6 AP exams to graduate from school.

 

I would still be interested in hearing what your opinion is since as you can see the school is a pressure cooker and homeschooling for high school may be very appealing.

Edited March 7, 2016 by NoPlaceLikeHome

[JanetC]

In regards to his school being a pressure cooker, I literally mean it and it has this reputation. We have been there 4 years and he is taking first half of pre-calculus and the second year of AP world history as well as chemistry, physics, and biology. If he stays for 9th grade he would only have to take one science, AP government and the second half of pre-calculus as well as his other courses. He has been working like Hercules the past 4 years and has done very well but has almost no free time:( He has been stressed a bit sometimes more than others and I have offered to pull him out before. He does not know whether he wants to stay or leave because the school has good points and bad points such as good teachers and lots of good kids and too much stress and too long of a school day-they get out at 4 pm. I worry he is going to burn out and have his free childhood time squandered. I feel he will have almost no time to explore his interests which upsets me:(

 

I appreciate any insights:)

Don't trade one pressure cooker for another.

 

I don't know why any school would put an 8th grader in the schedule you described. It's nuts.

 

When you say if he stays for ninth grade he would only have to take... Does that mean he is on track for early graduation?

 

Take time off to deschool and follow interests for a semester or a year before you sign up for anything, as it sounds like he is ahead in high school credits and probably burning out.

 

I don't do online classes, so no advice with the particular providers mentioned, However, if he is close to graduating with a lighter schedule the last year, I would consider going back and finishing the diploma there after your year away is done.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Don't trade one pressure cooker for another.

 

I don't know why any school would put an 8th grader in the schedule you described. It's nuts.

 

When you say if he stays for ninth grade he would only have to take... Does that mean he is on track for early graduation?

 

Take time off to deschool and follow interests for a semester or a year before you sign up for anything, as it sounds like he is ahead in high school credits and probably burning out.

 

I don't do online classes, so no advice with the particular providers mentioned, However, if he is close to graduating with a lighter schedule the last year, I would consider going back and finishing the diploma there after your year away is done.

The high school credits he will receive are Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry, and first half of Pre-calc as well as World History which all the kids take (not all take AP exam though) and economics. No credits for science since the are only about equivalent to regular highschool course over 3 years. He will have no other credits. I agree that he should take it easier and I think even with a few online course and even one easy AP it would be much easier especially without the long school day. I do worry about the burn out:(

 

He could theoretically graduate after 11th grade but are not interested in that at all. Their graduation tracks have early after 11th or different graduations after 12th.

Edited March 7, 2016 by NoPlaceLikeHome

[daijobu]

This is such a spot on, well-written informative post, that I can't let it go without quibbling about minor points that no one cares about.  (I also love the big rock metaphor.  Are you sure you weren't a humanities major?)

 

Foreign languages - especially Latin and Greek - also merit a lot of discussion among classical homeschoolers. Modern foreign languages are encouraged for college acceptance as well. Then sometimes (not always, but sometimes) it almost seems as if math and lab sciences are tacked on in an oh-and-by-the-way fashion. As in, "Don't forget you need to do math and science too. It's going to be hard to do it well, but there it is. Don't forget to do that too." 

 

 

I believe the reason math doesn't get the objective treatment/discussion it deserves is that most of the leading/published voices in the homeschooling community have degrees in the humanities. That's what they loved. I have found few that even made it to calculus in college. 

 

 

 

Somehow I've missed the Latin vs. Greek discussions.  Is this really a thing?  I've always thought it was ironic that Greek, which is a living language, is less commonly taught that Latin, the dead language.  

 

I find that there are a lot of people on this board who are very knowledgable about math.  I eagerly read their posts and consider everyone's thoughts and positions (including yours, Janice!).  

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Following up - complete disclosure here.  :001_smile:

 

We did not get to enjoy AoPS here. (I own ALL the books. I love them!) I didn't know about the program when my oldest started high school. My daughter would not have appreciated the approach. While my youngest son had the temperament to be a mathematician (He actually toyed with pursuing physics/astronomy; he would have been a marvelous fit.), but he did not like the AoPS class when we tried it. We tried it for about 2-3 weeks, and he hated the pace. It was FAST. And this kid is a slow burn. The text just flew by in the chat box; the other kids were used to the format, and they were COOKIN!  :001_smile:

 

 

 

I agree about the AOPS classes. My son did not like the fast typing at all and I wish they had a normal online class with whiteboard where you can hear the teacher. He likes AOPS and has done a little in the summer here and there. If we homeschool, we would switch from saxon to aops. We might try the aops classes again but maybe watch the recordings too to get more out of the classes. Otherwise with the new digital versions of aops books I think it would be easier to self teach and dh is strong in math. I am happy to see WTM offer aops classes too, I just wish the pace was a little faster since they cover only have of intro to algebra book in one school year. If we did school at home I would slow down math even more and start at intro to algebra and geometry as a review to help deepen his understanding of math.

 

Which math did your kids use?

[Jen in NY]

Totally agreeing with Janice about the 'big rock' math metaphor, too.

 

Our whole goal along the way was to keep doors open... chugging along in math is the best way to do that. I am finding that out now for myself. :)

 

The second I quit math after trig, a million options for a future career silently shriveled up and died. I am working hard now to revive them. If nothing else, at least I can say that my kids had a good math foundation, and for that I am truly grateful. Almost everything I would hope to go back to school for at this point requires much more math than I ever took. I am enjoying help from my kids while I catch up!! This time around, I am highly motivated. :laugh:

 

I'd say the most important thing to do is find a rigorous math program that your kid enjoys and won't burn out on. Then find enjoyable challenges outside of the classroom - AoPS happened to fit the bill here. There is also a great math circle in our town, and summer things at local unis. The AMC/AIME/Olympiad route is exciting and stimulating for some kids.

[regentrude]

May I ask if those were the numbers of credits before college application or before completing high school?

 

At the point of application, she had completed 2 semesters of physics and 3 semesters of French (18 credit hours) and was enrolled in 9 credit hours ( one course each) physics, French, and English in fall of senior year.

During her senior year, she took 2 semesters of English, 1 semester of physics, and 2 semesters of French (15 credit hours).

 

Is that what you were asking?

[Angie in VA]

Following up - complete disclosure here.  :001_smile:

 

We set AoPS aside. It made me so terribly sad. But hsing is like that. It's tough on the parents. Supporting other people requires a lot of maturity; there's little room for self-gratification. Not for wimps!  

 

Anyway - I speak about AoPS because it is a great program for the right student.

But plenty of kids do very well without it. Mine did. 

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Thank you for articulating what I know but needed to read worded just as you said. (((Janice)))

[SkateLeft]

Both of my girls did full-time dual enrollment in 11th and 12th grade. One is a computer science major and the other will be majoring in mechanical engineering. Both of them received substantial merit scholarships.

 

One thing I will add is that we were told by some universities (Creighton and... gah, I forget...) to save all the lab notebooks from dual enrollment lab science classes, if my girls wanted transfer credit for those courses as STEM majors.

[regentrude]

 If you really think your child is headed into a STEM field, focus on math. Just put that big rock into the jar first. Plan to build everything else around that rock.

 

Amen!

 

Anything else can be remedied. I see plenty of students at my STEM uni who did not have physics in high school. They will do fine - IF they have solid math skills. The ones who are not successful in intro chemistry and physics either lack work ethic or lack basic math skills, i.e. prealgebra and algebra.

[G5052]

Three R's, three R's, three R's. Reading, writing, and math will take you far.

 

If you have those rock solid, your college test scores will likely look good too.

 

I know of a local family who did dual enrollment foreign language classes with multiple SAT II's who got all of their kids into a "public ivy" in STEM areas with scholarships. No other outside classes, and no AP's.

Edited March 7, 2016 by G5052

[FaithManor]

Don't trade one pressure cooker for another.

 

I don't know why any school would put an 8th grader in the schedule you described. It's nuts.

 

When you say if he stays for ninth grade he would only have to take... Does that mean he is on track for early graduation?

 

Take time off to deschool and follow interests for a semester or a year before you sign up for anything, as it sounds like he is ahead in high school credits and probably burning out.

 

I don't do online classes, so no advice with the particular providers mentioned, However, if he is close to graduating with a lighter schedule the last year, I would consider going back and finishing the diploma there after your year away is done.

I think its nuts too!

 

We have a magnet school for arts and sciences about an hour from here and they pride themselves on how darn hard they push the kids. It begins in 6th grade and if students aren't ready for algebra 1, they can't even get in. So algebra 1 in 6th, geometry in 7th is normal, but the top 10% of the class gets an accelerated algebra 1 and geometry course in 6th, algebra 2 in 7th, and pre-calc in 8th. The school goes through Calc 4 as well as calc based stats as an option for junior or senior year.

 

The kids start AP's in 8th grade, and often graduate with so many it is staggering. Interestingly, this is VERY frowned upon by our top flagship school University of Michigan because the students are completely burned out before they ever enter the doors of their first on-campus college class. They also usually are pretty accomplished in music, art, or science on a competitive level, yet show no personal passion for these pursuits and have nothing else to show because there wasn't time to do anything else. I've accompanied numerous students from there for Solo and Ensemble and man, they appear to be a bunch of wigged out zombies. I always feel so sorry for them.

 

At this school, the parents are just WOW insane pushing their kids. It is full of Amy Chua, Tiger mom types. The teachers report that they feel that their students suffer a great deal of anxiety, panic attacks, digestive disorders, and clinical depression from the pressure to achieve, and the suicide rate there is much, much higher than the regular high school in the same district. Our niece tried the place for 7th and 8th grade and on the advice of a professional counselor was not allowed to go back for high school. She is a student now thriving at a public high school and will likely take a couple of AP's, a couple of DE courses, and matriculate to a perfectly worthy state school or not tippy top selective private college where she will thrive and be well. The change has been amazing. She smiles again, and seems to get some enjoyment out of passions - snowboarding, classical guitar, and track - which she had given up in order to manage the work load of that competitive school.

 

Don't do it. Life is too short for high school to be that insane! There is a good middle ground where students are challenged, mastering the skills needed to achieve, and are well prepared for college without sacrificing their mental health in the process.

[JanetC]

The high school credits he will receive are Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry, and first half of Pre-calc as well as World History which all the kids take (not all take AP exam though) and economics. No credits for science since the are only about equivalent to regular highschool course over 3 years. He will have no other credits. I agree that he should take it easier and I think even with a few online course and even one easy AP it would be much easier especially without the long school day. I do worry about the burn out:(

 

He could theoretically graduate after 11th grade but are not interested in that at all. Their graduation tracks have early after 11th or different graduations after 12th.

 

Still, 3.5 credits of high school math and 1 credit of AP history before 9th grade is enough that you can take 9th a little easy and not do a full load and not fall behind.

 

[Janice in NJ]

OK. I'm still in. Three lab sciences in one year made no sense. 

 

I don't know what school this is, but it sounds like they have tried to reverse engineer the "perfect" education. IOW, if colleges want kids to have plenty of top AP scores, why not just have them start taking AP classes early so they can work to get lots of top AP scores. Makes sense on paper. Doesn't make sense in practice. A good AP class requires maturity on the student's part. Twelve year olds think about life differently than kids who are 18 or adults who are 30, 40 or 50. You can train most 12 year old kids to memorize names and dates; you can also teach them to respond to a DBQ; however, they aren't emotionally ready to deal with the reality of the 30 Years War or war in GENERAL! Sure, you can clean it up so they can study it, but they don't know that you've scrubbed it. (They might be mad when they read a book about some of these events as an adult and find out they don't actually understand anything about world history. Knowledge does not equal understanding.)

 

For example, I've enjoyed John Merriman's lectures from Yale online. I expand when I spend time with him. He mentions things I hadn't thought about. I pause the lecture, trample off to read for a couple of months, and return a bigger person. He just tosses stuff out there and assumes you know what he means. I seldom do. So I explore until I do. At least I understand more. Please recall that I thought I understood a long time ago. Good teachers inspire expansion. But you have to be ready for it. And you have to have something to build on. No one can put it in there. You have to receive it in order to build on it. 

 

Look, in my experience some kids stand out in the college admissions process because they stand out.

 

They. Stand. Out.

 

If he/she has a bunch of adults in the background tweaking things to make it look like the kid stands out, there are going to be problems. Unless the adults are planning to go off to uni with the student and then prop him up for the rest of his adult life, things are going to eventually settle where they will. We can't all be better than average drivers, no matter how much our parents want it. Half of us have to be below half. Just like half of us are below the mean height. And half of us live in a house that is priced below the mean. Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

Coming to grips with our role as parents can be tough. Recognizing that in many aspects, each of our children is going to be below average in several attribute categories is part of the process. Learning to see our role in that area can be a lot harder than seeing our role regarding the things the child seems naturally good at. Sometimes it's MORE than ok to just be ok, or less than ok. Sometimes it's absolutely wonderful! 

 

Life is full of trade offs and opportunity costs. So is education.

 

Learning to deal with the fact that I'm not that special is a wonderful thing. Learning to see myself as just another face in a sea of no one is quite liberating. It makes it easier to just get back to the business of enjoying the day and trying to do some good.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

P.S. Regarding Greek and Latin - no, they don't come up on message boards that often at the high school level. But they are part of the literature for homeschooling high school. I honestly think they are favored in the hsing literature because there are so many things between phonics and algebra that are "just believe me when I tell you this is true even if it doesn't make sense." Latin grammar is predictable; it makes an immense amount of sense. Very comforting to have something that scaffolds when you are lost in a sea of "Why is phonics spelled that way? What is wrong with an F?" ... and other similarly annoying questions. You can almost see the child's brain shuffling through the logic of the whole thing as they try to translate a sentence into Latin. Very satisfying. Secure. Precept upon precept. But at our house, we lost interest once everyone was ready to start algebra and geometry. Useful and secure and required for college admissions. Viola! Birds and stones and all that!

 

And yes, folks on the boards are great when it comes to sharing their experience about math and science. However many of the major voices in homeschooling claim that 50 minutes a day on math is enough. (The folks who write the books and speak at conventions.) I have asked whether they believe that 50 minutes a day spend on "English" is enough. Crickets! IOW, if the child is going into a STEM field, should he/she be allowed to be average as a reader and writer while he/she excels in math and/or science. Thats when the debate starts about how STEM kids need to know how to read and write well. 

 

Sure. They do.

 

But shouldn't the humanities kids have to learn how to do math as well? 

 

Look. I'm not saying that you should skip educating your kids in the humanities. I'm not. Because yes, kids in math and science are expected to be good at all of it and GREAT within their area of expertise. But I am saying that you are going to have to row upstream if you are going to homeschool your kid with a focus on math (and science) - but as Regentrude confirmed, "Focus on the math first!" You are going to have to fight to keep the humanities jammed into an appropriately sized box because otherwise it can swell to fill the day. When you read, read the best books. When you discuss them, make it count. And make sure your student writes. Every day if you can. At least once a week if you must. Make sure they know how to research a topic, generate a thesis, and defend it. 

 

And then dig into math - spend time on it. Master an area of science. Do experiments from the lab manual. Then generate an additional hypothesis, and test it. Write up a report to explain what happened - learn Excel so you can write good reports. Learn to program a computer - GREAT FUN! Play with robots. Grow things in Petri Dishes. Beg off a copy of Mathematica or Matlab or Sage (free!). Find a book or a website or SOMETHING to help you. Bang around until you can make it work. Then dream up things to explore. And explore them. And then write about those things. Viola! Birds and stones again.

 

I could go on...

 

STEM can be terribly interesting and math is the gateway! May I recommend a book? What is Mathematics by Courant.  ISBN-13: 978-0195105193

 

Would make EXCELLENT READING for an upper level student interested in the subject. Warning: it's not like reading literature. Your math students will discover they don't know how to "read."  :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[Janice in NJ]

nm  :001_smile:

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[regentrude]

And yes, folks on the boards are great when it comes to sharing their experience about math and science. However many of the major voices in homeschooling claim that 50 minutes a day on math is enough. (The folks who write the books and speak at conventions.) I have asked whether they believe that 50 minutes a day spend on "English" is enough. Crickets! IOW, if the child is going into a STEM field, should he/she be allowed to be average as a reader and writer while he/she excels in math and/or science. Thats when the debate starts about how STEM kids need to know how to read and write well.

 

I agree with the major gist of Janice's argument, however, I want to add a quick comment about the bolded to clarify something: quantity does not equal quality. If your student puts in concentrated work on math for 50 minutes with a challenging program and works to mastery, then 50 minutes of math can be entirely sufficient. It is not necessary to spend two hours working pages upon pages of soulless repetetive problems - 50 minutes thinking hard about a difficult problem may accomplish more.

 

I don't want anybody to think that in order to be ready for STEM, or, for that matter, in order to master math, it is important to spend especially large amounts of time. Continuous, consistent work with a high quality program is what is needed. The actual amount of time spent is not that important.

[...................]

Same boat here (only also the added complication of a state system with crazy requirements but I digress.)

 

1.  Make math a priority- AOPS and tutoring here, also math club

2.  Use PA Homeschoolers AP classes to beef up the GPA and also get the AP test scores.

3.  Use Landry or other online provider for foreign language...(not necessary if you feel confident on your own)

4.  Use some CC college classes....

5. Yes, I think Science needs to be outsourced to online and then CC because the accountability for really nailing those lab reports, records, formal lab reports, etc. is very useful.  It's very hard to pick apart someone's lab report as a mom, but a teacher can do that - not only do they have the experience and knowledge to show the student their weak spots but the credibility.  My son received a big fat F on his first big formal lab report for Apologia Online Academy.  (The teacher was awful and she did NOT explain what was required) BUT he really learned his lesson, we did some research, I sat with him and he re-did it with the exacting standards... and turned in a TEN page formal lab report that my friend's college professor husband said would have gotten an A, and he literally got a 100 on it.  THat is an experience I could not have provided. :o)

 

Yes, we are using a transcript/record keeping service.  It's not like we **can't** do it on our own, but they also provide advice, a little counseling and loving support. All for 250.00 per year, I think it's a great deal....  Our is an extension of a Christian school so they also provide AP testing site, as well as SAT and PSAT testing.  ...That is pretty useful.  For the money, I think it is a big blessing. (we also have access to sports and clubs, band, orchestra, etc. for a fee but we don't use that at this point) 

 

As far as labs, it can be done at home.  

 

I am walking this path alongside you so I cannot say that my plan is perfect, but I definitely think you can do this, and I hope my little bit of research and info is helpful! :o)

 

 

 

[...................]

I agree with the major gist of Janice's argument, however, I want to add a quick comment about the bolded to clarify something: quantity does not equal quality. If your student puts in concentrated work on math for 50 minutes with a challenging program and works to mastery, then 50 minutes of math can be entirely sufficient. It is not necessary to spend two hours working pages upon pages of soulless repetetive problems - 50 minutes thinking hard about a difficult problem may accomplish more.

 

I don't want anybody to think that in order to be ready for STEM, or, for that matter, in order to master math, it is important to spend especially large amounts of time. Continuous, consistent work with a high quality program is what is needed. The actual amount of time spent is not that important.

yes...not a saxon fan here...

 

BUT some kids unfortunately will struggle more and therefore semi- vast amounts of time are required to puzzle through :o)  (aka my ds and AOPS)  :o)

[Janice in NJ]

I agree with the major gist of Janice's argument, however, I want to add a quick comment about the bolded to clarify something: quantity does not equal quality. If your student puts in concentrated work on math for 50 minutes with a challenging program and works to mastery, then 50 minutes of math can be entirely sufficient. It is not necessary to spend two hours working pages upon pages of soulless repetetive problems - 50 minutes thinking hard about a difficult problem may accomplish more.

 

I don't want anybody to think that in order to be ready for STEM, or, for that matter, in order to master math, it is important to spend especially large amounts of time. Continuous, consistent work with a high quality program is what is needed. The actual amount of time spent is not that important.

 

 

Hi Regentrude,

 

I agree. It can be sufficient. It can. 

 

My point is that if the child is heading toward STEM (obviously), it might be a good idea to let science or math take the lead. Let it be the big rock. When your daughter was taking her uni science classes, did she spend more than 50 minutes a day on science? And I don't recall the details of your situation, but I suspect you would have objected to a schedule that had her doing two hours a day of AP Lit and two hours a day on AP history and __ and __ and __.  IOW, would you have objected to a schedule that made it unlikely or difficult to excel in her science classes? Certainly you wouldn't have crammed science into a 50 minute block in order to accommodate that other stuff. Would you?

 

And if the child is really interested in math, there is much to explore. Much more than should be crammed into 50 minutes in order to make room for a zillion AP humanities courses. 

 

If we disagree, then that's fine. I have great respect for you. I just wanted to clarify in case we might actually agree. 

 

Peace,

Janice

 

P.S. I also wanted to add:

 

While, yes, I would never suggest that a student spend two hours a day doing anything soulless, one of the things I see STEM majors lack is a work ethic. They don't know how to sit quietly in a room and read and do mathematics or physics or programming or ____ (without constantly getting distracted) for extended periods of time. And that's something STEM majors need to know how to do before they hit that Calc, Physics, Chem combo. Hours and hours and hours working in concentrated effort primarily on your own. Collaboration is a part of it, to be sure. But you have to know how to just embrace the work because there is a lot of it. That's a tough thing to learn how to do September of freshman year with all the fun screaming at you from all directions. Practicing how to do it, and knowing that you know what you are embracing when you decide to major in Physics isn't such a bad thing.

 

Silence can be deafening if you aren't used to it. Knowing that you have the temperament for the work goes a long way toward building confidence. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[regentrude]

 

My point is that if the child is heading toward STEM (obviously), it might be a good idea to let science or math take the lead. Let it be the big rock. When your daughter was taking her uni science classes, did she spend more than 50 minutes a day on science? And I don't recall the details of your situation, but I suspect you would have objected to a schedule that had her doing two hours a day of AP Lit and two hours a day on AP history and __ and __ and __.  IOW, would you have objected to a schedule that made it unlikely or difficult to excel in her science classes? Certainly you wouldn't have crammed science into a 50 minute block in order to accommodate that other stuff. Would you?

 

And if the child is really interested in math, there is much to explore. Much more than should be crammed into 50 minutes in order to make room for a zillion AP humanities courses. 

 

If we disagree, then that's fine. I have great respect for you. I just wanted to clarify in case we might actually agree. 

 

While, yes, I would never suggest that a student spend two hours a day doing anything soulless, one of the things I see STEM majors lack is a work ethic. They don't know how to sit quietly in a room and read and do mathematics or physics or programming or ____ (without constantly getting distracted) for extended periods of time. And that's something STEM majors need to know how to do before they hit that Calc, Physics, Chem combo. Hours and hours and hours working in concentrated effort primarily on your own. Collaboration is a part of it, to be sure. But you have to know how to just embrace the work because there is a lot of it. That's a tough thing to learn how to do September of freshman year with all the fun screaming at you from all directions. Practicing how to do it, and knowing that you know what you are embracing when you decide to major in Physics isn't such a bad thing.

 

Silence can be deafening if you aren't used to it. Knowing that you have the temperament for the work goes a long way toward building confidence. 

 

Janice, I am not sure we agree here.

Certainly, to be prepared in STEM a student needs to have rock solid math. That we agree on.

OTOH, I do not believe it is necessary, or desirable, to specialize in high school. A student heading for STEM may not take that many humanities classes in college, so high school may be the last time he gets thorough exposure to literature and history, which, to me, means that especially the STEM student should get a strong humanities education in high school because he may not have as much opportunity to fill gaps in college. Likewise, a humanities inclined student should get a strong science foundation at home before heading into college when he may not be required to take any science courses.

 

Yes, my DD spent more than 50 minutes per day on her calculus based physics course, because this was a course that required 2 hours outside of class for every hour in class. But at the same time, she also spent a lot of time on her French course and on her Shakespeare class, because these, too, were time consuming courses with a high work load. It is of course not feasible to spend huge amounts of time on a zillion courses, but I do not see why a STEM student could not get a balanced high school education. So, I would plead for focus and strong work on few courses, as opposed to dabbling in lots of different subjects - but with an eye towards balance. A scientist or engineer should be a strong reader and able to express her thoughts coherently in writing; abilities that, according to my colleagues in our English department, a large percentage of our engineering students do not possess.

 

I also disagree about STEM requiring a certain kind of work ethic that other disciplines do not have. Sitting by yourself, reading copious amounts of literature and writing long essays is a lot of work, too (if we are talking about a sufficient level of coursework and not a Micky Mouse English course where you get away with superficial reading and opinions instead of in depth analysis.) It may be even more solitary than working out physics problems in a study group - you are the only person writing on a certain paper topic.

 

[daijobu]

I agree about the AOPS classes. My son did not like the fast typing at all and I wish they had a normal online class with whiteboard where you can hear the teacher. He likes AOPS and has done a little in the summer here and there. If we homeschool, we would switch from saxon to aops. We might try the aops classes again but maybe watch the recordings too to get more out of the classes. 

 

I am not a big fan of the AoPS online classes for my kids.  I like to take our time and make sure we have mastery over the concepts however long that takes us.  I don't like the idea of adhering to a class schedule, particularly the breakneck pace of AoPS.  My kids have taken plenty of AoPS classes, but those were extras: AMC prep and python programming, which isn't as fast-paced as the math classes.   When dd took the AoPS online class in counting and probability with her friend, I had her go through the book with me again because she just wasn't doing all the problems in the book, and I wanted her to be solid there.  

 

I know lots of kids on this board have had success with AoPS online classes, but you should know that other students who enroll, say, in AoPS geometry are kids in regular school  who have already taken geometry IRL and are taking it again with AoPS for extra challenge.

[snowbeltmom]

 

I know lots of kids on this board have had success with AoPS online classes, but you should know that other students who enroll, say, in AoPS geometry are kids in regular school  who have already taken geometry IRL and are taking it again with AoPS for extra challenge.

This is an excellent point.  If you sign your son up for an online class with AoPS, your son will get much more out of the class if he has worked through the problems in the book that cover the week's topic prior to attending the class.  In our experience at our house, kids can get lost very quickly in the online class chat if they go into the class blind.

 

Also, if you do decide to take an online class, I would recommend budgeting 2 hours (or more) a day for math.  The classes move at warp speed and cover a lot of material.

[regentrude]

This is an excellent point.  If you sign your son up for an online class with AoPS, your son will get much more out of the class if he has worked through the problems in the book that cover the week's topic prior to attending the class.  In our experience at our house, kids can get lost very quickly in the online class chat if they go into the class blind.

 

Also, if you do decide to take an online class, I would recommend budgeting 2 hours (or more) a day for math.  The classes move at warp speed and cover a lot of material.

 

yes.

And if you decide that the pace is not something you want for your student: the books are written TO the student and designed to be used without an instructor. You can just work through the textbooks and take as much time as needed for your student's pace.

None of my kids did the classes. We just took our time.

[The Governess]

OTOH, I do not believe it is necessary, or desirable, to specialize in high school. A student heading for STEM may not take that many humanities classes in college, so high school may be the last time he gets thorough exposure to literature and history, which, to me, means that especially the STEM student should get a strong humanities education in high school because he may not have as much opportunity to fill gaps in college. Likewise, a humanities inclined student should get a strong science foundation at home before heading into college when he may not be required to take any science courses.

 

Yes to all of this! This is my philosophy as well. The humanities, math, sciences.... These subjects are important to study for their own sakes, no matter what majors our students decide on. I have a dd who is a very strong math student and chances are that she will major in a related field... which makes me even more determined to study the great books with her at an intense level in high school. Otherwise it likely won't happen at all.

[Janice in NJ]

Janice, I am not sure we agree here.

Certainly, to be prepared in STEM a student needs to have rock solid math. That we agree on.

OTOH, I do not believe it is necessary, or desirable, to specialize in high school. A student heading for STEM may not take that many humanities classes in college, so high school may be the last time he gets thorough exposure to literature and history, which, to me, means that especially the STEM student should get a strong humanities education in high school because he may not have as much opportunity to fill gaps in college. Likewise, a humanities inclined student should get a strong science foundation at home before heading into college when he may not be required to take any science courses.

 

Yes, my DD spent more than 50 minutes per day on her calculus based physics course, because this was a course that required 2 hours outside of class for every hour in class. But at the same time, she also spent a lot of time on her French course and on her Shakespeare class, because these, too, were time consuming courses with a high work load. It is of course not feasible to spend huge amounts of time on a zillion courses, but I do not see why a STEM student could not get a balanced high school education. So, I would plead for focus and strong work on few courses, as opposed to dabbling in lots of different subjects - but with an eye towards balance. A scientist or engineer should be a strong reader and able to express her thoughts coherently in writing; abilities that, according to my colleagues in our English department, a large percentage of our engineering students do not possess.

 

I also disagree about STEM requiring a certain kind of work ethic that other disciplines do not have. Sitting by yourself, reading copious amounts of literature and writing long essays is a lot of work, too (if we are talking about a sufficient level of coursework and not a Micky Mouse English course where you get away with superficial reading and opinions instead of in depth analysis.) It may be even more solitary than working out physics problems in a study group - you are the only person writing on a certain paper topic.

 

 

I tried to private message you, but I couldn't. 

 

Can we agree that if a child plans to major in a STEM field at a competitive school, it might not be unreasonable to assume that they might need/want to spend more than 50 minutes in math and 50 minutes in science during their 9-12 years? Your daughter did. Do you really think she would have been accepted with the 50 min/50 min scenario in grades 9-12? 

 

I have not yet found an AP English or AP history class (or DE class) that claims that the student an be successful by devoting 50 minutes a day to the subject (including class time). Have you?

 

I am not suggesting that STEM students don't need to know how to read and write well. I am suggesting that they should be allowed to rest on their oars as they move into 11th and 12th grades. If a student knows/suspects they want a career in a heavy STEM field, I don't think they should feel compelled to take AP Government, AP European History, AP American History, AP Economics, AP English Lang, AP English Lit, and possibly AP Psychology during their 9-12 years. I believe one course in college-level history, one in college-level literature, and one in college-level writing should be enough. Then they should be released to focus on their passion and demonstrate to colleges that they know what they want and are prepared to pursue it. Nor am I suggesting the student study no other history/lit/philosophy etc during high school. I am suggesting the focus on the AP humanities with homeschoolers is a thing. And this push to pull more and more college-level work in the humanities down into high school is a thing for homeschoolers. It's like a badge of honor. And I'm suggesting that it might be time to rethink it - especially for kids who want to focus on STEM majors in college. I am just proposing that really great things might happen if kids were allowed to spend THAT kind of time working in STEM. Put English into a 50 minute box, and put History into a 50 minute box. Focus on reading and writing skills within those boxes. 

 

And I guess we are going to have to disagree about the preparation. I find reading chemistry, physics, and mathematics to be very different from reading literature, history, economics, politics, philosophy, and psychology. I think kids should find out if they enjoy it (and the time commitment) before committing to it. Kids who have never been asked to do more than 30 minutes of math homework a night are going to have a hard time adjusting to a 4 credit calculus class (12 hours/week including class time). In my experience, kids don't go to college knowing how to read math and physics. Am I wrong? Do they read the text before they come to class, respond to your lectures with their questions culled from their reading, and then trample off the the library to begin their problem sets? Because if you ask hard-working seniors in AP English to read The Heart of Darkness before coming to class, most of them will. They will bring their copy marked up. Few of those same students in AP Calculus READ the book before coming to class. No matter HOW MANY TIMES you tell them to do it. 

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

ETA: I homeschooled my kids BECAUSE I didn't want them to miss out on a strong education in the humanities. I went to Columbia University, and the great books courses were REALLY tough for me. I went to a small high school in the middle of nowhere. We read NONE of the great books. The closest we came was A Tale of Two Cities in high school. That was the only one. I was determined that wouldn't happen with my kids. To this day, my older son's favorite book is Plato's Republic. Our house is STUFFED with Teaching Company courses. My kids' favorite history lecturer was Thomas Noble. They still mention him. I could go on and on. We didn't sacrifice the humanities at all. But we did spend more than 50 minutes a day on math too. No regrets!

Edited March 7, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[regentrude]

. If a student knows/suspects they want a career in a heavy STEM field, I don't think they should feel compelled to take AP Government, AP European History, AP American History, AP Economics, AP English Lang, AP English Lit, and possibly AP Psychology during their 9-12 years. I believe one course in college-level history, one in college-level literature, and one in college-level writing should be enough. Then they should be released to focus on their passion and demonstrate to colleges that they know what they want and are prepared to pursue it. Nor am I suggesting the student study no other history/lit/philosophy etc during high school. I am suggesting the focus on the AP humanities with homeschoolers is a thing

 

Oh, I agree that oodles of APs are unnecessary. I don't like APs anyway because I dislike the narrow focus and the teaching to the test.

 

 

 

 

.  I am just proposing that really great things might happen if kids were allowed to spend THAT kind of time working in STEM. Put English into a 50 minute box, and put History into a 50 minute box. Focus on reading and writing skills within those boxes. 

 

I am still not sure about the dichotomy. Great things also happen if the kids spend equal amounts of time on STEM and humanities. You can want to major in physics and still want to become fluent in a foreign language.

 

 

And I guess we are going to have to disagree about the preparation. I find reading chemistry, physics, and mathematics to be very different from reading literature, history, economics, politics, philosophy, and psychology. I think kids should find out if they enjoy it (and the time commitment) before committing to it. Kids who have never been asked to do more than 30 minutes of math homework a night are going to have a hard time adjusting to a 4 credit calculus class (12 hours/week including class time). In my experience, kids don't go to college knowing how to read math and physics. Am I wrong? Do they read the text before they come to class, respond to your lectures with their questions culled from their reading, and then trample off the the library to begin their problem sets? Because if you ask hard-working seniors in AP English to read The Heart of Darkness before coming to class, most of them will. They will bring their copy marked up. Few of those same students in AP Calculus READ the book before coming to class. No matter HOW MANY TIMES you tell them to do it. 

 

There I agree: students should learn how to read a science or math textbook. Most college students have never learned to do.

But I see this as something more than work ethic. It is a skill - and a skill that should be taught in the context of their high school science classes. (And yes, a student who has been taught good work ethic will also read the assigned reading in her science class - because that's what a good student does. )

[Arcadia]

 

My point is that if the child is heading toward STEM (obviously), it might be a good idea to let science or math take the lead.

 

While, yes, I would never suggest that a student spend two hours a day doing anything soulless, one of the things I see STEM majors lack is a work ethic. They don't know how to sit quietly in a room and read and do mathematics or physics or programming or ____ (without constantly getting distracted) for extended periods of time. And that's something STEM majors need to know how to do before they hit that Calc, Physics, Chem combo. Hours and hours and hours working in concentrated effort primarily on your own.

 

If a child is passionate about STEM, the child could easily forget that anything else exist and barely cover the humanities.  I also do not see a need to compartmentalize into neat 50mins slots or the need to categorize subjects into STEM and non-STEM. My hubby is a research engineer but he also enjoys literature, playing multiple musical instruments and learning other languages.

 

I don't agree that STEM majors lack work ethic but we are in different parts of the country so local conditions differ.

 

A kid interested in AP Calculus instead of being forced to take it is more likely to do the readings before class or even once the syllabus and lesson plans are out.  A kid who is in any class because that is the class he/she is signed up for or assigned to is going to be reluctant to prep.

[MarkT]

FYI for the school mentioned this is their SLOWEST track for Math:

7  Saxon Algebra 1
8  Saxon Algebra 2
9  PreCalculus A
10 PreCalculus B
11 AP Calculus AB
12 AP Calculus BC

 

Students have to take the AP Calculus AB or BC Exam to be eligible for graduation.

 

 

[daijobu]

Also to keep you grounded a bit, there are some schools which already have excellent reputations that are dropping APs.  They have the luxury to do so because the quality of their graduates is high, so they don't need to validate as much as a school with mostly mediocre students attending with some that are outstanding.  I know of at least one local private school that dropped all their APs, and another that doesn't have any science APs in their course catalog.   

 

As homeschoolers, we usually lack this reputation and need to provide some kind of validation.  It doesn't need to be an AP score, but for many of us it's convenient and does the job.  

[lisabees]

I am leaning towards homeschool for high school but am intimidated at the prospect of providing a rigorous program that would be accepted at good to selective colleges for probable STEM major.

 

I already am thinking of using PA Homeschoolers for some courses, WTM Academy for others, and maybe Kolbe Academy coupled with some home courses with AOPS and what not.

 

Is it mandatory for a kid to use dual enrollment in community college/university for sciences with a lab to get accepted to selective universities or is PA Homeschoolers enough with good AP score?

 

Anyone willing to share their path for a STEM kid who wants good to selective college? We also don't have tons to spend but can spend maybe up to several thousand a year for this.

 

 

Did you use any transcript services such as Kolbe or others or just use your own?

 

Any help appreciated:) :svengo:

 

Love this conversation.  Always nice to see you, Janice!

 

OP, what I love most about homeschooling is it provides time to breathe.  And while kids are taking those long, deep breaths, you find that they reach for things - like a book or a difficult math problem or a passion - that they would otherwise not have time for.  This is where the "interesting" bits of your ds lie.  This is what will get him into those selective schools.

 

Let go of the idea that you have to create the perfect transcript with the perfect courses.  Give him the time to breathe and you will find that he leads you in a certain direction.

 

Provide him with lectures and books and articles and discussions.  Show him the human side of STEM.  My kids became enamored by a subject because of the scientists and their personalities and stories and enthusiasm.  Homeschooling gave them the opportunity to see all of that.  Your ds is at the perfect age to do this.  

 

This summer, hand your ds an AoPS book.  Let him think.  Let him get frustrated (and he most certainly will).  Let it simmer.  Hand him the book that Janice recommends (my ds read What is Mathematics? this year) and others.  Let him begin to slowly take over his own education.  It can be a tough transition, to be sure.  

 

I won't argue with points about time spent on math - my kids spend a lot of time on math, because they like it.  And I don't think I would be satisfied with only 50 mins a day!  But, I also have dd12, who writes creatively for over an hour a day (in addition to other English subjects) and spends at least two hours a day on self-driven science topics.  DS16 spends hours a day on math, but also takes AP English and is preparing for the AP Japanese exam.  

 

I think that once you bring ds home and you get through that transition period (which can seem like a slog), things settle and you will worry less about college entrance requirements and more about how to feed your child's thirst for learning.

 

And your ds's uniqueness is what will get him into selective schools.  Yes, he needs the scores to compete (and to validate his homeschooling grades), but that is the easy part for a high-achieving student.

 

Re: Work ethic.  Math has definitely been the gateway for my kids, but that is because they love it.  When I dropped off ds for the SAT on Saturday, I watched him walk in and thought, "Well, he certainly won't have trouble sitting for 4 hours, concentrating.  He is used to that."  So, a work ethic is extremely valuable, no matter how you get one.  Just make sure they get one!

[lisabees]

Amen!

 

Anything else can be remedied. I see plenty of students at my STEM uni who did not have physics in high school. They will do fine - IF they have solid math skills. The ones who are not successful in intro chemistry and physics either lack work ethic or lack basic math skills, i.e. prealgebra and algebra.

 

Regentrude,

 

If you could only hear me, on a daily basis, singing this tune to my 12 year old!  We are taking our time with AoPS Prealgebra (in addition to other supplements). I thought we would finish in one year, but I have decided there are too many benefits to staying and bathing in it for a long while.  

 

I see what has happened to my SDD16, who is struggling in Algebra 2, because she spends WAY too much time struggling with the basics.  This has affected her in science and her overall self-image in these subjects!

Edited March 8, 2016 by lisabees