Dual enrollment vs AP?

[Janeway]

Son has asked to do dual enrollment next year. I have no issue with that. But, I am thinking he might not get out of it what he is thinking and may wish to wait until spring. He will already be outsourcing World History and Lit. He is asking to do a history dual enrollment because he loves history. I would like to see him give a try at an AP class. I think AP Human Geo might be good. Or maybe AP World History. This is for next year, 9th grade. I am sure if it were explained to him, he would be willing to try a variety of things. He is not likely to try to get in to a highly competitive school, but of course, I would not know now what he will do in 4 years. What do you think?

[regentrude]

Why does he want to take  a DE class?

Why do you want him in an AP class? What advantage do you see over DE?

 

My DD wanted to be in a real college classroom with class mates and a professor. She thrives in a classroom atmosphere, and self studying for an AP exam would not have filled that need. She got into an extremely selective school without any APs, but with plenty of DE classes. And she had a great time at the university that served as her high school  ;-)

Edited January 25, 2016 by regentrude

[Janeway]

Why does he want to take  a DE class?

Why do you want him in an AP class? What advantage do you see over DE?

 

My DD wanted to be in a real college classroom with class mates and a professor. She thrives in a classroom atmosphere, and self studying for an AP exam would not have filled that need. She got into an extremely selective school without any APs, but with plenty of DE classes. And she had a great time at the university that served as her high school  ;-)

I think he just heard some of the other home schoolers talk about doing it. But, he would not be at the same community college as them. We live on the edge of the county, so technically, his friends are in 3-4 different counties. I know the one mom pays out-of-county rates for her children to do DE at the 4th county. The people right here, in our county, use the one community college. I don't like that one, for many reasons not worth getting in to. And since we live right at the edge, the one for the next county over is closer to us anyway. The costs are similar. The people to the west of us go to their own county college. Basically, that was a long way of saying, he would not be taking DE with anyone he knows. 

 

I don't know. I am unsure of the advantages of one over the other. 

[regentrude]

I think he just heard some of the other home schoolers talk about doing it. But, he would not be at the same community college as them. .... Basically, that was a long way of saying, he would not be taking DE with anyone he knows.

 

Why does he need to take classes with other homeschoolers he already knows?

 

[Janeway]

Why does he need to take classes with other homeschoolers he already knows?

Just that I am thinking he wants to take them to do it with friends. But, he will not be able to take it where his friends take it.

[regentrude]

Just that I am thinking he wants to take them to do it with friends. But, he will not be able to take it where his friends take it.

 

Have you talked to him about this? Does he understand it would be at a different college? Does he want to do it anyway?

(My DD did not know anybody. She met people there.)

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by regentrude

[Lori D.]

Why is DS asking specifically for dual enrollment? Is there a specific History course he's interested in that's being offered at the community college or university? Or does he like the idea of "doing college  as a 9th grader"? If the first reason, then I might consider it. If the second reason, well, there are a lot of potential "cons" to dual enrollment with such a young high school student, so I'd consider filling a desire to "do college as a 9th grader" with something like an Open Source course in History, or sign up for a Coursera course, or do a History-based series of Teaching Company Great Courses, and have him read a college textbook on the History period of interest.

 

Just me, but for a 9th grader who has a love of History, I would not worry about doing either AP or dual enrollment, and let DS explore his specific interests in History in addition to your formal World History credit. That exploration could end up being an extracurricular or personal interest/hobby (involvement with local History Recreation group, books on the specific History period/topics of interest, websites, documentaries, etc.). Or it could be an Academic Elective credit (using high school or college texts, Teaching Company Great Courses, Coursera, Open Source college intro level course lectures, etc.)

 

The beauty of doing this outside of a dual-enrolled class or AP, is that you get to go deep in your personal interests, rather than being locked in to a specific course syllabus.

 

As far as "pros" and "cons" of dual enrollment...

 

pros

- allows high school student to get a small/controlled amount of college experience before going full time (learn time management, study skills, classroom skills, uploading papers and using electronic blackboard system, managing online student account page, etc.)

- often community college classes (taken via dual enrollment) have smaller class sizes and are taught by actual teachers rather than graduate students/TAs (taken as college freshman at a 4-year university)

- many credits transfer to 4-year universities

- some states offer FREE dual enrollment for high school students; live teachers/class interaction

- can earn enough credits while still in high school to knock out 1-2 years of college in advance, or even earn an Associate's degree by high school graduation; student gets to "practice" college in advance

 

cons

- course speed and amount of material may be too much for a high school student

- course content is for college ages, and may be too mature for young high school students (most frequently happens in Psychology, Anthropology, Sociology, and Literature courses)

- not all CCs have quality classes

- not all credits are not always accepted by universities

- a few colleges limit how many college credits a high school student can have and still be considered a freshman, which is the year of college which offers the most scholarship money (most colleges do not limit this)

 

potential cons

- young high school student is mixing with young adult students

- all dual enrollment courses count towards the GPA on the student's permanent college transcript -- so if a high school student does not do well in college classes during high school, that will follow the student into college

- some universities may prefer AP to dual enrollment to show rigor in admissions

Edited January 25, 2016 by Lori D.

[Janeway]

Why is DS asking specifically for dual enrollment? Is there a specific History course he's interested in that's being offered at the community college or university? Or does he like the idea of "doing college  as a 9th grader"? If the first reason, then I might consider it. If the second reason, well, there are a lot of potential "cons" to dual enrollment with such a young high school student, so I'd consider filling a desire to "do college as a 9th grader" with something like an Open Source course in History, or sign up for a Coursera course, or do a History-based series of Teaching Company Great Courses, and have him read a college textbook on the History period of interest.

 

Just me, but for a 9th grader who has a love of History, I would not worry about doing either AP or dual enrollment, and let DS explore his specific interests in History in addition to your formal World History credit. That exploration could end up being an extracurricular or personal interest/hobby (involvement with local History Recreation group, books on the specific History period/topics of interest, websites, documentaries, etc.). Or it could be an Academic Elective credit (using high school or college texts, Teaching Company Great Courses, Coursera, Open Source college intro level course lectures, etc.)

 

The beauty of doing this outside of a dual-enrolled class or AP, is that you get to go deep in your personal interests, rather than being locked in to a specific course syllabus.

 

As far as "pros" and "cons" of dual enrollment...

 

pros

- allows high school student to get a small/controlled amount of college experience before going full time (learn time management, study skills, classroom skills, uploading papers and using electronic blackboard system, managing online student account page, etc.)

- often community college classes (taken via dual enrollment) have smaller class sizes and are taught by actual teachers rather than graduate students/TAs (taken as college freshman at a 4-year university)

- many credits transfer to 4-year universities

- some states offer FREE dual enrollment for high school students; live teachers/class interaction

- can earn enough credits while still in high school to knock out 1-2 years of college in advance, or even earn an Associate's degree by high school graduation; student gets to "practice" college in advance

 

cons

- course speed and amount of material may be too much for a high school student

- course content is for college ages, and may be too mature for young high school students (most frequently happens in Psychology, Anthropology, Sociology, and Literature courses)

- not all CCs have quality classes

- not all credits are not always accepted by universities

- a few colleges limit how many college credits a high school student can have and still be considered a freshman, which is the year of college which offers the most scholarship money (most colleges do not limit this)

 

potential cons

- young high school student is mixing with young adult students

- all dual enrollment courses count towards the GPA on the student's permanent college transcript -- so if a high school student does not do well in college classes during high school, that will follow the student into college

- some universities may prefer AP to dual enrollment to show rigor in admissions

Thank you! This is what I was looking for. 

 

For me, I would prefer he look at AP over community college just because he is still young and AP seems like it would have the academic challenge without the social aspect of being at a college. I see a lot of people here referencing various online courses. Plus, I thought I could ask the person he goes to now if she thinks they will cover enough by the end of next year to consider the World History exam with added self study on the side.

[Mom22ns]

Thank you! This is what I was looking for. 

 

For me, I would prefer he look at AP over community college just because he is still young and AP seems like it would have the academic challenge without the social aspect of being at a college. I see a lot of people here referencing various online courses. Plus, I thought I could ask the person he goes to now if she thinks they will cover enough by the end of next year to consider the World History exam with added self study on the side.

 

We used AP instead of DE to get greater academic challenge where the student was interested. We used DE for subjects not suited to online study (foreign languages) and subjects that were not of interest to the student, but were requirements. That way they didn't have to take them again in college :). 

 

I think your reasoning for AP is sound. He would be in a class with other high school students, not adults. He will get a solid challenging look at the subject and might gain credit for it too. He will not have to deal with adult situations he may not be ready for yet as a freshman.

[regentrude]

Not to argue, since I don't have skin in the game but why is this

 

 He would be in a class with other high school students

 

supposed to be an advantage?

 

None of my kids would have (had) a desire to be in a  class with other high school students. Aside from other aspects that factor in the decision (first and foremost the academic quality of the institution), they, and I, socially prefer a college environment.

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by regentrude

[Garga]

Another pro for DE: it gives a prof to write recommendation letters for later college admissions and special high school level programs.

 

Another pro for DE: It shows that the student can function in a classroom.

 

Another con for AP: The grade for the class comes down to a one-day test. If the student isn't feeling well or the ps changes your kid's test paper, you're sunk.

I'm new to AP classes. I didn't even know they existed until about 5 months ago and I'm still a little blurry on how they work or how to find one (or teach one myself) or how to know when to test, etc.

 

What does it mean if the "ps changes your kid's test paper"? Are there different test papers to take and it might get muddled as to which to use? Do you mean they do something dishonest to sabotage the student? Or something else?

[Lori D.]

Son … will already be outsourcing World History and Lit...

… He is asking to do a history dual enrollment because he loves history...

...I would like to see him give a try AP Human Geo… Or maybe AP World History

 

 

AP World History AND outsourced World History/Lit course sounds like an awful lot of World History all in one year. I'd probably do just one or the other. Probably not so much chance of "burn out" or "overkill" if doing AP Geography with the outsourced World History/Lit course.

 

Also, at the high school level, I think it is really important to have the student's input and start moving the choice of coursework when possible to the student (as long as it is fulfilling required goals and the student is making an informed choice and not a decision out of "laziness" -- lol).

 

Since pursuing a History period of personal interest, or dual enrollment History class, or the AP Human Geography or AP World History all will fulfill 1 of the 2-3 Social Science credits required for high school graduation/college admission, what does DS think? Have him look over the syllabi, the course content, and materials to be used for all of those options -- which is of most interest to him? He is the one who has to put the work in! ;)

 

Just FYI for future planning: college admission requirements usually want 2-3 Social Science credits -- 1 credit American History, and some want either 1 credit of World History or 0.5 credit each of Gov't & Econ -- so if you make sure you do all 3 of those credits, you're golden for college admissions, and doing an AP Social Science credit is frosting on top.

[GinaPagnato]

I'm new to AP classes. I didn't even know they existed until about 5 months ago and I'm still a little blurry on how they work or how to find one (or teach one myself) or how to know when to test, etc.

 

What does it mean if the "ps changes your kid's test paper"? Are there different test papers to take and it might get muddled as to which to use? Do you mean they do something dishonest to sabotage the student? Or something else?

 

I think she means that with AP tests, kids have to register to take them at local high schools that are administering them. First, not every school administers every test, so you may have to travel to find a school to serve as the testing center. Second, at the last minute, the ps may deny the kid from entering to take the test, saying the homeschooling paperwork wasn't in order (happened to a friend of mine), or the ID isn't valid, or some such nightmare scenario. I think these are unlikely, but I would hate to have my kid prepare all year for a one-day test, only to have him/her turned away. We haven't had this with AP exams, but I know people who have.

 

[regentrude]

Another con for AP: The grade for the class comes down to a one-day test.

 

Good point - I forgot to mention that, for us, that was one decisive factor not to subject my student who is suffering from test anxiety to this ordeal. A credit earned cumulatively over the course of a semester through steady work was far better for her than the single high stakes exam... which, if you bum it, pretty much invalidates the entire year.

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by regentrude

[Garga]

I think she means that with AP tests, kids have to register to take them at local high schools that are administering them. First, not every school administers every test, so you may have to travel to find a school to serve as the testing center. Second, at the last minute, the ps may deny the kid from entering to take the test, saying the homeschooling paperwork wasn't in order (happened to a friend of mine), or the ID isn't valid, or some such nightmare scenario. I think these are unlikely, but I would hate to have my kid prepare all year for a one-day test, only to have him/her turned away. We haven't had this with AP exams, but I know people who have.

 

Wow! Wow! That's just so mean! What a terrible thing for the school district to do to a child. I just don't understand people most of the time. :(

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Some college classes have a mid-term and a final. That's only two grades. Some have 3. Not all college classes have lots of opportunities for grades.

 

Also, not all college professors are saints. There are horror stories with grades, etc there as well. 

 

Neither AP or DE is all good or all bad. Many factors are at play.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy

[GoodGrief]

Re: AP grades, the grade for the class does not have to come down to the May exam grade. A student could conceivably get an "A" in an AP class, and skip the exam entirely (that happened for my daughter one year, because we could not find a location for the World History AP exam. Little did I know that the local district did AP World and AP US History on alternating years.) I've also heard plenty of anecdotes of building-based students with an "A" in the class, but a low exam score (or the other way around!)

 

My daughters have done both dual enrollment and AP classes. We choose asynchronous classes, so AP classes are much more flexible in our case. Another thing to consider with dual enrollment is that the grade will follow the student all through college, as part of the college transcript.

 

It's great when a class goes well and the credits transfer nicely though :-) My current college junior has had significant health problems in college, and having the cushion of the extra credits from DE in high school was incredibly helpful.

[creekland]

In your situation, I'd go AP for next year and Human Geo or WH would be a good start.

 

My kids have done both AP/DE successfully.

 

In general, we've found AP to be more in depth - stronger courses.  This will depend upon the teacher, of course.  They have material they need to cover and they tend to make sure they get to it.  Be sure you find a teacher whose students regularly get 5s or 4s on the test.  If you get one where they don't get good test scores, stay away.  It's not worth the time or effort and it's not really an AP level class even if it's called one.  The fact that AP is so "nationalized" is why more colleges will accept good scores for college credit.  Several college admin folks have outright told me this.  They don't know if they can trust the DE course.  There's no standard with them.

 

That said, we've done some DE too and two of my three guys had their college accept at least some of those credits.  My lad at the higher ranked school is the one who didn't get credit.  (We're totally ok with that - esp seeing the depth of his classes at his 4 year school.)  All schools (we were interested in) offered credit for AP.  (NOT all schools do, but most do.)

 

DE has the same advantages others have mentioned - classroom experience - far more course choices - opportunities for letters of recommendation.  All three of mine got their letters of recommendation from their DE profs.  Some classes - like Public Speaking - are FAR better with DE (and not offered as AP anyway).

 

If I had it to do over again, we'd add more AP courses and keep the DE that we did.  A mix worked very well for us.

 

But for 9th grade and a start into higher level options?  I'd stick with AP.  AP courses do not go on a final college transcript.  DE courses do.  Let him get his feet wet with something that can be forgiving if need be.  Mine started DE in 11th grade.

 

Just my two cents.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Regarding letters of recommendation...

 

Letters of recommendation can be given by AP instructors if the student takes an AP class online or at a brick-and-mortar school.  That's not unique to DE. Many of the AP instructors are also college professors or professionals in the field they are teaching. Qualifications most likely won't be an issue.

 

As in all situations dealing with letters of recommendation, much depends on the teacher and the student. Does the student make themselves memorable? Do they work to form a relationship with the instructor? Even just listening to my daughter talk about her classes, sitting in on particularly interesting topics, and walking by and seeing students on the webcam, I've formed initial impressions of some of the students regarding promptness, participation, attitude, appearance, how they work with others, etc. This is just from walking by occasionally and sometimes watching a segment about something my daughter thought I might enjoy. I can only imagine how much more the teacher of the class would know the students - especially the students who make an effort to be known. 

 

Unless it is a lab course or there is some other reason the teacher needs to have been physically in the room with the student in order to effectively write the letter, I'm not sure I see the difference between AP and DE letters of recommendation. I'm almost certain many students on this board use letters of recommendation from AP instructors for their college applications. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Different perspective on AP Human Geography...

 

I've known more than one student who started with AP Human Geo and ended up dropping the class partially due to lack of interest in the subject. Being the easiest AP or best first AP didn't matter. Their time could be spent in better, more interesting ways.

 

For some students starting with AP Human Geo works well, for others it is far better to start with a subject of interest to the student. There is no one size fits all when it comes to AP. 

[JeanM]

Just to share my ds's experience, since he is also interested in history. He took AP European history in 9th grade through the public high school, AP US history in 10th grade, again at the high school. Those are the only two AP history classes that our public school offers. The classes were small - only 9 kids in the AP US history - and had lots of discussions. The big bonus for him is that he now has strong ties to the history teachers at the public school.

 

This year (11th grade) fall semester he audited a history class at a local, highly-ranked liberal arts college. This semester he had planned to audit another history class, but none of the classes that he felt qualified for would fit into his schedule. He did not want to take an upper level history class, even if it sounded very interesting. So our tentative plans (just made today), are for him to take an Edx class or two online this semester. Hopefully he can audit another college class in the fall.

 

Edited to add: I know that not everyone can take part-time public high school classes. It worked particularly well for us because it was free, and ds really prefers in person discussions.

Edited January 26, 2016 by JeanM

[Janeway]

Just to share my ds's experience, since he is also interested in history. He took AP European history in 9th grade through the public high school, AP US history in 10th grade, again at the high school. Those are the only two AP history classes that our public school offers. The classes were small - only 9 kids in the AP US history - and had lots of discussions. The big bonus for him is that he now has strong ties to the history teachers at the public school.

 

This year (11th grade) fall semester he audited a history class at a local, highly-ranked liberal arts college. This semester he had planned to audit another history class, but none of the classes that he felt qualified for would fit into his schedule. He did not want to take an upper level history class, even if it sounded very interesting. So our tentative plans (just made today), are for him to take an Edx class or two online this semester. Hopefully he can audit another college class in the fall.

 

Edited to add: I know that not everyone can take part-time public high school classes. It worked particularly well for us because it was free, and ds really prefers in person discussions.

What is EdX?...nevermind I googled it. Thanks!

Edited January 26, 2016 by Janeway

[brookspr]

Different perspective on AP Human Geography...

 

I've known more than one student who started with AP Human Geo and ended up dropping the class partially due to lack of interest in the subject. Being the easiest AP or best first AP didn't matter. Their time could be spent in better, more interesting ways.

 

For some students starting with AP Human Geo works well, for others it is far better to start with a subject of interest to the student. There is no one size fits all when it comes to AP. 

 

I definitely agree with this, don't take an AP class just because it says it's the easiest AP or a good first AP. My daughter is currently taking AP Human Geo thru PA Homeschoolers, the class sounded very interesting to her and she wasn't really thrilled with doing another regular history class. She loves the class so much that she wants to further her study of world cultures. The class and our recent trip to Costa Rica has also created a spark for her to want to learn Spanish, this is the child who HATED every foreign language she has tried (French, Russian, Latin) so I am super excited that she finally found a reason to want to learn a language.

 

As much as I would like her to take another AP class next year, if we don't find one that fits her interests (English would be the most likely) then we may just try a college class at our local cc or do another online class that isn't AP.

 

She is also taking AP Music Theory at the high school this year. This is her true love and she is doing great in the class. 

[quark]

What is EdX?

 

EdX is a MOOC similar to Coursera, FutureLearn etc.

Founded by Harvard & MIT. https://www.edx.org/

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by quark

[JoanHomeEd]

 He is asking to do a history dual enrollment because he loves history. 

 

I have not read all the responses, but just adding my 2 cents to the fact that you mentioned his love for history.

Another way to nurture that love is through competitions. Competitions will not only deepen his skills and knowledge, they will help to develop perseverance, goal setting, career goals, and aspirations. Also, he might get to meet other kids who are also interested in history. 

I'm not familiar with history competitions. Googled and found this for example,

http://www.thewha.org/wha-awards/competition-for-k-12-students/world-historian-student-essay-competition-awards/

Maybe you could start a thread on history competitions or PM Muttichen because based on this thread 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/580817-question-for-those-whose-students-applied-ivy-or-super-competitive/, she had BTDT.

[LisaKinVA]

In 9th grade, I'd suggest doing an AP course over DE, and possibly pacing the course more like a college course, if your child wants the extra challenge (this means completing AP Human Geography in a semester vs. a year).  Most CC's won't allow DE under 11th grade.  Some do, through exceptional student programs -- but they require ACT scores of 21+

 

Depending upon where you live, you may have to pay 100% out of pocket to dual-enroll.  

Depending upon where you live, you may have to wait to register for classes until after everyone else has registered, meaning you may not get the course you want, let alone the section/time.

 

For us, while it would be *nice* to have DE as an option, I can't afford to pay $800-$1000 for a DE course when the AP one is free at the high school.  And, there is a better than even chance that a school that doesn't accept AP credit for certain courses isn't going to take the CC credit for those courses, either.

 

Seconding the previous poster about fostering his love for history and not worrying about the AP level (unless he just really wants to take the exam).  There is a lot to study, with tons of resources.  He can really thrive in that subject (initially) at home :D

[GoodGrief]

I love the competition idea! For a kid so inclined, that's an excellent way to validate mastery for colleges.

[Valley Girl]

Our ps changed dd's answer sheet and she failed. She was marked as missing almost every question. We learned our lesson with that one! Our ps has pulled some fast ones with the PSAT too. 

 

 

Are you saying they--deliberately or not--gave her the wrong answer sheet? If so, that's outrageous. Did you have any recourse? I'd want to raise such a stink over that kind of thing.