Need a Challenging novel for my older ds - finished my list (-:

[lewelma]

List is in post 53.  I'm open to suggestions/changes.

 

My older boy has asked for a challenge.  He has spent the last month reading the Thomas Covanant fantasy series and was talking about his next novel being Ulysses.  :eek:

 

He likes long philosophical novels, and doesn't mind the wading through the tough stuff.  In the past year he has read these tough ones:

Brothers Karmazov

House of Leaves

Wolf Hall

The Luminaries

Cloud Atlas

 

He loved Brothers Karamazov so much that I thought perhaps a Russian novel would be a good choice.  But he also really loved House of Leaves so perhaps post-modern would be interesting (Infinite Jest or Rainbows End?)  We have also been considering a novel by Camus or Borges.  He just did a nihilistic short story by Hemingway and found it fascinating. 

 

Open to suggestions!  He is 15 so not a sexy one.  :tongue_smilie:

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited January 23, 2016 by lewelma

[azucena]

What about the sequel to Wolf Hall?

 

Or Nabokov's The Gift (from his Russian years - nothing inappropriate that I recall)?

 

There is an online reading group starting up for Infinite Jest but there is heavy drug related content (the novel is about addiction) so I would not do for a 15 year old.

[azucena]

Or, you could do a chronological approach:

17th century - Don Quixote (there are Open Yale lectures for this one)

18th century - Tristram Shandy

19th century - Moby Dick

 

All of these have serious philosophical themes as well as elements that could be considered "pre-post-modern" if that makes sense (e.g., self-conscious narration).  Also not inappropriate in terms of any sexual content!

[Garga]

Let him get a pile of books and start reading.

 

Anything by Dickens is good.  He can read Tolstoy and Dostoevsky if he is partial to Russian authors.  Some Mark Twain.  Hemmingway.  Just pick a classic author and try out some books. 

 

If you want some lists, go to Ambleside Online and look over their literature lists. (Pick a year in high school, pick a schedule, click on "literature"--here's the 10th grade list; http://amblesideonline.org/10bks.shtml#lit )

 

Here's a list of recommended reading for the college bound student: http://www.thehomescholar.com/college-bound-reading-list.php

 

 

Oh, and if he hasn't read To Kill a Mockingbird, that's just an all around awesome book, but probably not as difficult to read as classics written in the 1800s are.

[Emerald Stoker]

I think At Swim-Two-Birds is a riot! If you like Tristram Shandy, you'll like Flann O'Brien.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Emerald Stoker

[lewelma]

Thanks guys for all the lovely ideas!  He definitely wants philosophical or post modern, and we have considered DonQuiote and Tristam Shandy, so those are good choices.  Will avoid Infinite Jest. :tongue_smilie:  This kid is a really good reader, and he wants something challenging. So I'm not looking for a typical book for a highschool student.  I did look at the two lists, and he has read all the ones listed for Ambleside except Le Miserable (could consider that one.  I gave it to him when he was 11 and he did not get very far. :tongue_smilie: ) The other list has basically one from every famous author, so perhaps that is a good approach, will ask ds. As for what he has already read: He doesn't really like Dickens, has read All of Twain, All of Lovecraft, All of Poe, dabbled in Hemingway (he was interested in Nihilistic books last year). He read Moby Dick at age 11.  So we could just pick some authors and go for it, but right now he really just wants one really hard book to sink his teeth into. 

 

As for the sequel to Wolf Hall, he told me he was glad he read Wolf Hall, but did not really want to read more historical fiction of that sort.  I will look into the Gift, that looks interesting. 

 

So I just asked him, and he said he is considering these authors and would love advice as to which books by them might be interesting: 

Joyce

Camus

Borges

Tolstoy

Dolstoevsky

 

Or other authors of equally high regard and complexity. I think he is getting sick of math.   :huh:

Edited January 21, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I think At Swim-Two-Birds is a riot! If you like Tristram Shandy, you'll like Flann O'Brien.

 

He loves humor and has read every classic I could find except Tristam Shandy.  But I don't think he has read Flann OBrien so will suggest that when he wants a funny book. Thanks!

[Have kids -- will travel]

Sophie's World may be a good choice as well.

[quark]

DS says it depends how you define most challenging.

 

Borges writes short stories, essays and poems.

DS's favorite collection is Ficciones (he loved the short story Death and the Compass).

 

He also liked the following Borges collections:

The Aleph (2nd favorite after Ficciones)

Book of Sand

Dr Brodie's Report

 

The Doctrine of Cycles is an essay that presents erroneous math arguments, so maybe avoid? The only time I've heard DS being disappointed with something by Borges.

 

[Emerald Stoker]

Well, he'd likely want Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and Dubliners before he reads Ulysses anyway, so why not start with one of those? Dubliners is very beautiful.

 

ETA: If he wants more Russians, has he read Gogol? Some of the satirical stories might suit--I remember "The Nose" really cracking me up at that sort of age. And he likes music, so he could listen to the Shostakovich opera, too.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Emerald Stoker

[Emerald Stoker]

Another couple of thoughts: if David Foster Wallace appeals, how about some of the essay collections? A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again and Consider the Lobster are my favourite volumes, but they're all terrific.

 

Another thought: how about the Norse sagas? Big sprawling tales, those!

 

ETA one more: What about Trollope? That would keep him busy!!

Edited January 21, 2016 by Emerald Stoker

[quark]

Well, he'd likely want Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and Dubliners before he reads Ulysses anyway, so why not start with one of those? Dubliners is very beautiful.

 

ETA: If he wants more Russians, has he read Gogol? Some of the satirical stories might suit--I remember "The Nose" really cracking me up at that sort of age. And he likes music, so he could listen to the Shostakovich opera, too.

 

Can't agree more with the bolded. I fell in love with Crime and Punishment (Dostoyevsky) and found that absolutely beautiful too. It had just the kind of anguished introspection that I needed to immerse myself into at the time. I found it difficult at first but was carried away very quickly. So much internal struggle! And so well expressed!

 

Ruth, if your DS enjoyed The Master and Margarita by Bulgakov, I thought The White Guard very good too. Not very difficult but also beautifully written. The bond between the siblings in the story was what drew me in.

 

[Pen]

War and Peace. 

 

Ulysses would be fine too if he wants to read that, though it does have some sex to it, maybe more than would be okay with you.

[lewelma]

Great ideas!

 

How would he choose between War and Peace and Crime and Punishment?  What is the selling point of each?

 

He has read Sophie's Choice, some Gogol, some Trollope.  

 

He and I talked about what we would need to read to be prepared for Ulysses, and decided that it would need to be Portrait, Dubliners, and The Odyssey.  So we are considering it as a year long goal.  Would be interesting!  DS is pretty good about skipping over sex, he just does not like books that are *about* sex.  I'm thinking Brave New World, for example.

 

Essays are an interesting idea. I'm not sure I could sell him on them, though.  He just loves novels -- good, deep, difficult ones. And he reads them at night before bed, so I doubt he will want to read an essay. But then again, he does read the Economist at night.  So maybe.  

 

I think he only wanted Infinite Jest because he read that it was *hard*.  No other reason, really.  :tongue_smilie:

 

I'll check out White Guard when he wants an easier one. He did love Master and Margarita.  I really think he is overwhelmed with math right now and wants to think deeply about ideas, just not math ones. So he definitely wants something that is both deep and challenging to read. 

[Loesje22000]

[quote name="lewelma" post="6795673" timestamp="1453345293

 

So I just asked him, and he said he is considering these authors and would love advice as to which books by them might be interesting:

Joyce

Camus

// I prefer La peste above L'Etranger

Borges

Tolstoy

// according to DH war & peace above crime & punishment

Dolstoevsky

 

Or other authors of equally high regard and complexity. I think he is getting sick of math. :huh:

 

Did he try Toergenjev already?

Fathers and Sons?

( the authors name is spelled in Dutch, so I hope you can recognize it)

 

Is ready for some original philosophers?

Sartre, Kant, ?

[Tsuga]

Turgenev. :) Great novel for a teen boy. Also, Lermontov's Hero of Our Times.

[lewelma]

I'll look at father's and sons, that was on our list for this year and we never got around to it. Never heard of hero of our times, will look it up. Thanks!

 

So one vote for war and peace. (-:

 

I will ask him about original philosophers. That might be really interesting to him. I keep thinking the answer will be no, but maybe I just need to sell it rather than assuming it's a no go.

[Loesje22000]

I don't think Emile will be something for a teenager, but maybe the Social Contract from Rousseau is.

Still pondering about ideas :)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Great ideas!

 

How would he choose between War and Peace and Crime and Punishment?  What is the selling point of each?

 

 

 

 

I think either one of those would be a good choice. War and Peace is one of my favorites. My dd read Crime and Punishment a few weeks ago and is still talking about it. Another vote for Don Quixote, too. We both finished it recently. 

 

No advice on how your son would choose. I just took my dd to the bookstore and she came out of the stacks with Crime and Punishment. We obviously do things differently here. ;)

 

In this situation, I would probably hand him several books and say, "Here are a few possibilities."  Actually, I would probably just place the books on a side table somewhere in the house. If he didn't pick them up, I would presume they weren't calling to him...

 

I'm guessing that's not what you meant.  ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I will ask him about original philosophers. That might be really interesting to him. I keep thinking the answer will be no, but maybe I just need to sell it rather than assuming it's a no go.

 

Machiavelli's The Prince and Marcus Aurelius's Meditations might be worth considering. 

 

(ETA: I forgot you were looking for Russian works. I've just skimmed the thread and forgot that.)

Edited January 21, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy

[azucena]

How would he choose between War and Peace and Crime and Punishment?  What is the selling point of each?

 

Both are obviously classics but War and Peace operates on a much bigger frame of ideas and events - are great men the drivers of history?  what does it mean to live a good life?  Crime and Punishment is almost claustrophobic (to me at least) as the detective questions the murderer.  

 

For reading Dostoevsky, also consider The Devils (a/k/a The Possessed) which is about terrorism, its motivating ideas and psychology.  It is more germane to current events than you might suspect. 

[nobeatenpath]

Not Russian but to me feels like a lot of the 'big' Russian novels - Emile Zola, especially 'Germinal'. I also think War and Peace is great but Anna Karenina is even better.

Has he considered Umberto Eco - both 'The Name of the Rose' and 'Foucault's Pendulum'.

Sometimes over looked because of the magical realism, but I think on a par with Tolstoy and Camus - Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Though I can't remember how much sex there is in the books (but if he can cope with Joyce had can probably cope with it).

A few other suggestions:

Italo Calvino 'If on a Winter's Night a Traveler'

Luther Blissett (yes, a nom de plume) 'Q: A Dance of Death'

 

ETA - and 'Cryptonomicon' by Neal Stephenson

Edited January 21, 2016 by nobeatenpath

[Xahm]

As a different kind of challenge, I recommend Pale Fire by Nabokov. It's nothing like Lolita. It sets itself up as a poem and then literary criticism of that poem, but it is actually a really funny novel. The challenge and fun comes from the way it plays with the concept of what a novel is while poking fun at self-importance and the literary world. I would have thought it would be terrible, but it is an enjoyable read.

I don't recall any sex in it. At least, right after reading it I gave it to my 14 year old brother, and I wouldn't have given him anything explicit. He loved it. He's always preferred non-fiction to fiction, but this one was listed as one of his favorite books for a long time. I did warn him not to read other novels by the same author, or at least to read a review before he did so.

[tm919]

What about Middlemarch? It reminds me a lot of War & Peace except... not Russian.

 

As far as Dostoyevsky, I loved the newer translation of The Idiot. It's not the Brothers Karamazov, but there are some scenes in it that are totally unforgettable.

[Pen]

Great ideas!

 

How would he choose between War and Peace and Crime and Punishment?  What is the selling point of each?

 

 

He and I talked about what we would need to read to be prepared for Ulysses, and decided that it would need to be Portrait, Dubliners, and The Odyssey.  

 

 

Well, I greatly prefer War and Peace, but that's not a good reason, I guess.

 

War and Peace is grand and exciting, the sort of book my ds would like as being along the action adventure lines. It is also philosophical and also delves into human nature. I loved W and P.

 

Crime and Punishment is smaller in scope...sort of a peering into one character's mind following a murder, and, as I recall, doing so with an underlying sense of a certain religious view (which would have already been there with Brothers K, but I think Brothers K is a more interesting book, personally). I likely would not have finished C and P if it had not been required for a class.  I would say that Quark's description of CandP as  anguished introspection is correct and that she and I just have different feelings about reading a novel's worth of it. 

 

But your ds may have the opposite sense about them.  Or hate both, or love both.

 

 

I think that familiarity with the Odyssey story, at least the basics would be helpful for Ulysses. I do not personally think that Portrait or Dubliners need come before it. Ulysses was read as the only book for a class given at the high school I graduated from--I think a semester long-- and read by kids as young as your son, taking it slowly and learning about various references and so on as they came up.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Pen

[quark]

I'm actually re-reading Middlemarch now. I LOVED it as a teen and sort of just like it now (surprising myself by how different my reception is then vs now). I don't know why a teen boy would find it interesting reading though. DS, who actually enjoyed Pride and Prejudice and a string of Dickens, is not at all enticed by Middlemarch but I would like him to read it all the same if he cares to indulge me. Maybe other books by Eliot? The Mill on the Floss was appealing to me as a teen too.

 

About Crime and Punishment, err, :tongue_smilie: I can see how the anguished introspection will put some people off. I couldn't get past Ursula Le Guin's Left Hand for example. I just couldn't get past the first few pages. I don't know why. It's like I have to prepare myself for it mentally (despite loving Le Guin's Earthsea etc). But C&P, that kind of introspection totally rocks me. I love reading about how the mind works and beats itself up etc.

[lewelma]

I love waking up to so many responses.  You guys made my day. 

 

Lets see if I can sort through all these suggestions:

 

He has read and loved Name of the Rose and Cryptonomacon. I forgot about Foucaults Pendulum.  That was on our list this year, but he didn't get around to it.  

 

He is really excited about War and Peace now, and I think that he will get around to C&P later on because he really loved Dolstoevsky.  I've never read Middlemarch, so I looked it up and thought 'um, yuck.' So I find it interesting that books hit different people in different ways.  DS is happy for me to take the lead on which books he might read, and I'm wondering about picking one from all the most famous authors.  So that would put Elliot somewhere on the list. I'm also thinking that running through a bunch of philosophers would be right up his alley. He usually has just one book going, but perhaps I suggest a novel and a philosophical book/essay.  I require him to be in the lounge starting at 9 with no screens.  So he does have quite some time to read if that is what he wants to do. He typically goes to bed at midnight, for a 9:30am start.

 

WMA: I would love for ds to be more interested in picking his own books, but he just doesn't want to do it.  I think perhaps while I'm hunting around, he enjoys talking about what books are like and how they all might connect together.  I read summaries and reviews to him and we often go down literary rabbit trails like nihilism.  I'm wondering if the shared search helps him weave a global picture of the history of novels and literary thought.  I'm not sure.  He just really seems to enjoy having me take the lead with searching, and then let him make the determination. He never seems to just browse a book store or the library.

 

As for Ulysses, it is good to know that we could just give it a go.  Problem is really that *I* would have to read it. :tongue_smilie:

 

DS has considered Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. :thumbup1:

 

Pale Fire sounds really interesting, and I'll look up Idiot, and Germinal.  I had One hundred years of solitude on the list last year because I saw it in the WEM.  But I know nothing about Marquez. Is that a good first book by him?

 

If on a winter's night a traveler was on his post-modern list last year, but we didn't get around to that either.  Wow, how many books have we put on our list only to do something else!!

 

I'm thinking right now of 3 clusters for the whole year. So many great suggestions that now I need to make a list rather than chose 1 :thumbup1:  So here is my first stab at a suggestion list, not required reading!

 

Russian (War and Peace, Crime and Punishment, The Idiot, Gogol)

Post-modern (including Don Quote and Tristam Shanty as pre-post modern, Umberto Eco, If on a winters night, Pale Fire, maybe Marquez)

Nilhistic books/short stories (Camus, maybe more Hemingway, open to other suggestions) 

I know he likes all of these literary areas.

 

I'm wondering if we should try for a modern (Joyce or others)  I'm not a fan, but I really shouldn't let my opinion dictate his. 

 

Then, of course there could be a philosophy stream. Might make another thread for that one as I am clueless and will need some hand holding!

Edited January 21, 2016 by lewelma

[ebunny]

Since you already have reco's for Russian lit, my suggestions are:

 

Kazuo Ishiguro - Remains of the day?

Murakami- Norwegian wood? wind -up bird chronicle?

Toni Morrison- song of solomon?

Salman Rushdie- midnight's children?

Vikram seth- A suitable boy?

Orhan Pamuk- snow? museum of innocence?

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by ebunny

[ebunny]

dp

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by ebunny

[Carol in Cal.]

Atlas Shrugged?

[quark]

Marquez's One Hundred Years is currently DS's favorite novel. He says the sex is somewhat implied (some description but not of the act in itself). He said there was some bestiality implied as well. I haven't read it yet. He couldn't wait for me to finish pre-reading it.

 

DS had to analyze Dubliners for a lit class last semester and he felt lukewarm towards it (I liked it though!). Didn't love it, didn't hate it but it felt like a good precursor to Ulysses for him, although not necessary to have it be so like Pen mentioned. He did start Ulysses but decided that he didn't like Joyce enough to finish reading the book immediately. :laugh:

 

Ruth, I noticed that you left Borges out from your list. Another good short story writer to consider is Shulamith Hareven but her work might not appeal if your DS doesn't like domestic themes. We have just started on Joyce Carol Oates. I am enjoying The Museum of Dr Moses!

[lewelma]

I'm so glad to hear that your ds loved 100 years of solitude.  That was on the list for last year but got taken off for some reason that I can't remember.  DS likes magical realism, so with your ds's recommendation, I'm sure it will be a go. 

 

The problem ds has with short stories, is that they are short. LOL. He likes collections. However, we did analyze a Hemingway short story for one of his assessments last year which is what got him interested in nilhilism. He finds writing response papers on deep short stories a lot easier than something fluffy.  His correspondence school teacher told him that he did not have to read such hard works to meet the standard, but ds doesn't care.  He likes deep thinking.  He has 2 more response papers to write, so maybe we grab two of the short stories mentioned and run with them.  We chose A Clean Well Lit Place by Hemingway because it was super short!!!  Only 10% of kids get As here (30% B 30% C 30% F, no grade inflation here!) and ds keeps pounding out the As on every paper he writes for this 11th grade class.  So clearly he is thinking deeply about these books/short stories and not just breezing through them.  In so many ways he really is a generalist.  ;)

[quark]

I'm so glad to hear that your ds loved 100 years of solitude.  That was on the list for last year but got taken off for some reason that I can't remember.  DS likes magical realism, so with your ds's recommendation, I'm sure it will be a go. 

 

The problem ds has with short stories, is that they are short. LOL. He likes collections. However, we did analyze a Hemingway short story for one of his assessments last year which is what got him interested in nilhilism. He finds writing response papers on deep short stories a lot easier than something fluffy.  His correspondence school teacher told him that he did not have to read such hard works to meet the standard, but ds doesn't care.  He likes deep thinking.  He has 2 more response papers to write, so maybe we grab two of the short stories mentioned and run with them.  We chose A Clean Well Lit Place by Hemingway because it was super short!!!  Only 10% of kids get As here (30% B 30% C 30% F, no grade inflation here!) and ds keeps pounding out the As on every paper he writes for this 11th grade class.  So clearly he is thinking deeply about these books/short stories and not just breezing through them.  In so many ways he really is a generalist.  ;)

 

Borges is FAAAAR from fluffy! :) 

 

[lewelma]

ebunny, I had midnights children on last years list but I took it off for some reason.  Can't remember.  Maybe it is too depressing?  DS doesn't like depressing books.  The only books he has refused to finish were Metamorphasis and Mayor of Casterbridge -- endings were too depressing. I haven't heard of the others (except Toni Morrison which I don't think ds will like) so will go do some research! 

 

Atlas Shrugged was also on our list last year, I think I will put it back on!  great idea.

Edited January 22, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Borges is FAAAAR from fluffy! :) 

 

hee hee.  I know!  I meant that people were suggesting ONE short story, and ds likes collections. However, what I was trying to say is that I think that a Borges short story for a response paper would be a great idea. Nothing like typing too fast and not being clear -- my battery was about to die! (-:

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

After ds's response paper on Brothers Karamazov, his correspondence school teacher sent him a list of appropriate level books to meet the standard.  And ds was like "I read those when I was 10."  *That* was what I meant by not wanting to write about fluffy.    :001_smile:  

[quark]

hee hee.  I know!  I meant that people were suggesting ONE short story, and ds likes collections. However, what I was trying to say is that I think that a Borges short story for a response paper would be a great idea. Nothing like typing too fast and not being clear -- my battery was about to die! (-:

 

ETA: After ds's response paper on Brothers Karamazov, his correspondence school teacher sent him a list of appropriate level books to meet the standard.  And ds was like "I read those when I was 10."  *That* was what I meant by not wanting to write about fluffy.   :001_smile:  

 

:lol: That must have raised some eyebrows! DS is now very righteously exclaiming "Borges mom, ask them to read Borges!". :lol: Like it will solve everything you need regarding lit. He really took a shine to the man this year.

 

Please post your final list? I always manage to glean great ideas from your lit lists. :laugh:

 

[lewelma]

Moving this to the end of the thread since I just finished it: 

 

So many of these are long, I bet I don't need too many books this year.  (this is not the final list, but just how it is shaping up in my mind so far).

 

19th Century

Dead Souls, Gogol (1842, 430pgs, Russian)

Crime and Punishment, Dostoevsky (1866, 440pgs, Russian)

War and Peace, Tolstoy (1869, 1440pgs, Russian)

 

Post-modern

Don Quote, Cerves (1615, 1070 pgs, Spanish)

Tristam Shanty, Sterne (1759, 480pgs, English)

Pale Fire, Nobokov (1962, 256pgs, Russian)

If on a Winters Night a Traveler, Calvino (1979, 280pgs, Italian)

Faulcaults Pendulum, Eco (1988, 640pgs, Italian)

 

Magical Realism

Library of Babel, Borges (1941, 410pgs, Argentinian)

Baron in the Trees, Calvino (1957, 220pgs, Italian)

100 years of Solitude, Marquez (1967, 420pgs, Colombian)

 

Nihilistic

Fathers and Sons, Turgenev (1862, 300pgs, Russian) 

Antichrist, Nietzsche (1885, 100pgs, German)

The Stranger, Camus (1942, 120pgs, French)

 

Literary Easier Reads

Three Blind Mice, Christie (1947, 250, English)

A Town Called Alice, Shute (1950, 370pgs, Australian)

The Sirens of Titan, Vonnegut (1959, 340pgs, American)

Red Planet, & Stranger in a Strange Land, Heinlein (1961, American)

The New York Trilogy, Aster (1986, 320pgs, American)

 

Fun Reads

Roadside Picnic, Strugatsky (1971, Sci Fi, Russian)

House of Stairs, Sleater (1974, Distopian, American)

The Mote in God's Eye, Niven (1974, Sci Fi, American)

The Stand, King (1979, Apocolyptic/horror, American)

Snow Crash, Stephenson (1992, Cyberpunk, American)

Malazon, Erikson (1999, epic fantasy in 10 volumes, Canadian)

The Time Travelers Wife, Niffenegger (2003, Sci Fi, American)

Rivers of London Aaronovitch (2011, Humor, English)

 

Short stories for response papers

Gogol (Russian)

Borges (Argentinian)

Hemingway (American)

Mansfield (New Zealander)

 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

:lol: That must have raised some eyebrows! DS is now very righteously exclaiming "Borges mom, ask them to read Borges!". :lol: Like it will solve everything you need regarding lit. He really took a shine to the man this year.

 

Please post your final list? I always manage to glean great ideas from your lit lists. :laugh:

 

Yeah it really did raise some eyebrows.  The books on the list were Lord of the Flies & The Book Thief level.  Not an old classic to be seen.  And then for ds to work his way through 700 pages just for a mere response paper (he has to do 6 for one unit out of a required 5-6 units), the teacher was like  :confused1: .  Then the nilhilistic interpretation of Hemingway...  His paper on the House of Leaves was awesome!  I'll post it if I can find it.  All I can figure is my standards have been way too high from reading this board, because I had told ds that he was at or even below grade level.  ooops.  He keeps rubbing it in. 'remember that you told me I was not a good writer.  ha ha.  I proved you wrong.'

 

I'll get ds to read Borges just because yours suggested it!  

[lewelma]

Reading Response to House of Leaves

 

House of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski is a post modernistic novel centred around a supernatural house that is larger on the inside than the outside and is explored by different characters throughout the book. On the outside the house looks normal but inside there is a long hallway that stretches “into†an outside wall at the end of which is a doorway which opens into “the house properâ€. The main part of the house is a seemingly endless, freezing cold, and pitch black labyrinth of tight corridors, massive rooms a miles long, and giant spiral staircases which take days to ascend. Furthermore the house continuously changes so a door that existed a few minutes ago may no longer be there now. Throughout the book the characters exploring the house feel many types of fear, among them – the fear of darkness, of cold, claustrophobia, agoraphobia, and the fear of getting lost forever. However, I believe that the sense of human insignificance which the house projects is stronger that all of the other animalistic fears experienced by the characters – isolation, uncertainty, and lack of control because unlike those fears it is almost unconquerable.

 

The fear of pain and death is a evolutionary fear built into the minds of all animals to help them to survive, and even now fears built upon this instinct are still among the most prominent fears of humans. But this over arching fear of pain and death I believe can be split into three sub-categories each of them with its own evolutionary reasons. The fear of isolation is the first of them. Because humans are social creatures, being stranded from a group with no hope of finding themis obviously prominent fear for without a group, humans become easy prey to larger and more powerful predators. The supreme darkness, massiveness, and labyrinthine nature of the house all fall under this category as each of them makes it difficult to stay together as a group. Even the freezing temperature arguably lies under this group for it seems in the human mind to be connected to isolation (for example a person described as “cold†is uncaring and standoffish). The characters exploring the house, however, can somewhat counteract these fears by staying together in a group, but because they remain isolated from the outside world (the house breaks radio contact), these fears can never be completely eliminated.

 

The second “sub-fear†is that of uncertainty. A creature which is uncertain of the environment around it is at a great disadvantage to a creature which knows what is going on. Clearly the changeable nature of the house falls under this category but so too does darkness. A person who cannot see what is around him is uncertain of what is around him. Here too, however, the explorers of the house attempt to counteract this fear by bringing torches. But this is futile. In my opinion all it succeeds in accomplishing is to emphasize the darkness which the light fails to pierce.

 

The final fear is lack of control. If a creature has no control over what happens around it then clearly it is in a bad situation. Of all the sub-fears the lack of control is probably the fear most strongly conveyed by the house to its occupants. Throughout the novel the house has great control over what happens to its inhabitants â€“ it can even completely trap them as happens late in the book when the only entranceto the house disappears. But no matter how hard they try the explorers of the house seem to have no control over it. At times the explorers leave markers to track their progress but the house â€œeats†these as it does every other inanimate thing placed in it.

 

Yet where does the fear of human insignificance fit into these categories? The truth is that it doesn't because unlike all other fears the feeling of insignificance does not necessarily make a human more likely to get injured are killed. For example, to us an ant is insignificant, but if it does nothing to annoy us does its insignificance lead to a larger chance of its being squashed? This makes the fear of insignificance not an evolutionary one but one which stems from our consciousness. It is due to this that insignificance is far harder to counteract than the other fears for even if we are together with friends, know what is happening, and have control over what is happening to us we can still feel insignificant. It is this feeling of insignificance that the house projects strongly to those who enter it for not only is the house ancient, infinite, and unexplainable it also has great power over its occupants and is indifferent towards them – all attributes of an indifferent God. Indeed at one point Will Navidson goes so far as to describe the house as God. In order to counter this insignificance all people involved with the house including the reader are forced to bring a goal to the house which once accomplished would give them significance. For example when I first read the the book I instinctively believed the house had a centre which was hidden and had to be found, and Holloway believed the house was the lair of a Minotaur which had to be defeated. But these goals are never accomplished andall the characters in the book remain feeling insignificant. In fact Holloway goes insane and eventually commits suicide in is quest for the death of the Minotaur.

 

The way House of Leaves exemplifies the different types of fear also shows how humanity's fears have evolved as our society advanced. The Gothic horror writers like Poe focused on the evolutionary fears of isolation, uncertainty, and lack of control. But as our society advanced we lost isolation for there is no where we can travel on this planet where fellow humans are not near, we lost uncertainty for as science advances so to does uncertainty retreat, and as our society becomes more advanced we gain more control over our surroundings. Thus, our animalistic fears of pain and death have also decreased. This can be seen by the way more modern horror such as the works of H. P. Lovecraft and House of Leaves have human insignificance as one of their major fears. Indeed although science can eliminate evolutionary fears it can never rectify insignificance for science accepts that we are insignificant. Therefore, we will always have something to fear.

Edited January 22, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

ok, now that I am actually making a list rather than finding a single book, I need to get some easier ones for when he wants a lighter read.  He like things that are quirky (House of Leaves), or Sci Fi (Neuromancer) or humor (Three men in a boat). So things that are still deep but the books are easier to actually read or have a more 'fun' topic (sci fi or horror for example but open to other ideas).  

 

Suggestions for some easier reads? 

Edited January 22, 2016 by lewelma

[ThoughtfulMama]

I know Camus is on your list, and I find those simple reading but deep in meaning.  Does he read/speak French at all?  Camus is excellent untranslated.  Even if he knows just a bit of French he can probably get through it.

[lewelma]

No, sorry.  He is learning Mandarin.  :thumbup1:

 

I think the subject matter of Camus will make him consider it a harder read.  Just because it will take motivation to deal with the kind of topics that Camus attacks. So maybe more dystopian or adventure or humor or sci fi.  I'd love to give him Game of Thrones but its a bit OTT for my tastes to give to a 15 year old. 

 

He enjoyed the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, and Woodhouse, and Day of the Triffods, and Count of Monte Cristo.  All of those he would probably say were fun books in his eyes. He did really love House of Leaves.   Even Tinker Tailor Soldier and the Spy seemed easier because of the content rather than the ease of the language/techniques of the book.

Edited January 22, 2016 by lewelma

[quark]

No, sorry.  He is learning Mandarin.  :thumbup1:

 

I think the subject matter of Camus will make him consider it a harder read.  Just because it will take motivation to deal with the kind of topics that Camus attacks. So maybe more dystopian or adventure or humor or sci fi.  I'd love to give him Game of Thrones but its a bit OTT for my tastes to give to a 15 year old. 

 

He enjoyed the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, and Woodhouse, and Day of the Triffods, and Count of Monte Cristo.  All of those he would probably say were fun books in his eyes. He did really love House of Leaves.   Even Tinker Tailor Soldier and the Spy seemed easier because of the content rather than the ease of the language/techniques of the book.

 

Perhaps just have him try The Stranger? Just for a taste of Camus? He could still read it for entertainment and not necessarily to analyze it thoroughly (but it IS very tempting to analyze!).

 

Thank you for saying you'll ask him to read Borges just because mine suggested it. :laugh:  Gosh you should see the smile on the kid's face when I told him that! (He thinks he should ask your DS for suggestions on math books!).

 

I can't remember if you mentioned Philip K Dick. Short stories that DS likes...Holy Quarrel, I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon, Imposter.

 

The Abarat series by Clive Barker is easy to read and very quirky depending on the reader.

[lewelma]

Thanks for more ideas. (-: Yes to The Stranger, but I will put that under more serious reading.  He loves PK Dick, but I think he has read most of them. Don't know anything about the Abarat series, so will go look it up!

[nobeatenpath]

Your son has great taste - and I am not just saying that because he reminds me of myself at that age :lol:  (though not Dostoevsky - never liked)

 

For lighter books - how about  'The Sky's Dark Labyrinth' Triology by Stuart Clark (I have only read the first two). It is historical fiction about real scientists and scientific developments. Also Michel Faber - his work covers a broad range of genres but 'The Book of Strange New Things' might work.

For humour - the Rivers of London Novels. There are five so far with another due this year.

I know these are not really what you asked for but I think based on other things he has read and enjoyed he might get something out of these.

[Pen]

Light stuff:

 

We aren't big on horror here. Ds is in between your 2 in age so I'm not sure his choices would be helpful, but maybe they would be. He reads a lot of sci fi, including many Star Wars books in past. I don't have other specifics at the moment, but see some Philip K Dick and other stuff around--Dune books, Douglas Adams, Heinlein, Arthur C Clark....

 

We've both enjoyed Alexander McCall Smith Ladies No. 1 Detective Agency...I was surprised that ds did too, but he does. they are light and sweet and funny.

 

John Grisham (his adult books--the Theo Boone ones were dull), Carl Hiaasen (the kids books like Hoot, adult ones were too adult)...

 

Ds is into James Bond at present. They have a good bit of sex, though not generally drawn out and graphic, and a lot more violence than the movies seemed to have as I recall. Can be fun to see how Bond gets out of yet another impossible, sure to be fatal situation.

[Loesje22000]

If you read the stranger in your mother tongue it isn't a very long read.

I read The Stranger and The Plague last year.

I prefer the Plague Personally, but the Stranger is more usefull for its genre.

 

Personally I love Germinal and other books from Zola,

But he doesn't polish his works.

The life of mineworkers has been pretty rough and unpolished, and so is the book.

It tells frankly about s*x.

And his books have a realistic ( maybe grey) view on life.

 

++++++

This book:

http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Manfred-Gregor/dp/B000UFJN6W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1453451148&sr=1-1&keywords=The+bridge+gregor

 

Isn't hard or very difficult, but has the universal theme of teenage boys, getting their first task in the army: to defend a bridge.

The book switches between how the boys got enrolled, and how their lives was before the war, and how they defend the bridge (and die one by one)

 

It is WWII settled, but one can see this could happen everywhere.

 

++++

This book:

http://www.amazon.com/Rider-White-Horse-Theodor-Storm-ebook/dp/B00BJPLTUU/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1453451556&sr=1-1&keywords=Theodor+storm

 

Is not a 'must have read once in your lifetime'

But dd is allowed to read it for German.

Just something different & new :)

 

++++

We liked to read Barbe Blue from Amelie Nothomb, but I can't find a translation in English.

Again not a 'must read', but enjoyable :)

[ebunny]

ebunny, I had midnights children on last years list but I took it off for some reason.  Can't remember.  Maybe it is too depressing?  DS doesn't like depressing books.  The only books he has refused to finish were Metamorphasis and Mayor of Casterbridge -- endings were too depressing. I haven't heard of the others (except Toni Morrison which I don't think ds will like) so will go do some research! 

 

ooops..most of my reco's in my previous post have depressing endings. :D :leaving:

 

Those writers (Ishiguro, Pamuk, Murakami, Seth etc) tend to veer towards melancholia and despondence. But the writing is beyond beautiful.

 

I'm waiting for my dd to grow up a lil bit to read 'A suitable boy'. That tome requries endurance.

[Cosmos]

No, sorry.  He is learning Mandarin.  :thumbup1:

 

I think the subject matter of Camus will make him consider it a harder read.  Just because it will take motivation to deal with the kind of topics that Camus attacks. So maybe more dystopian or adventure or humor or sci fi.  I'd love to give him Game of Thrones but its a bit OTT for my tastes to give to a 15 year old. 

 

He enjoyed the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, and Woodhouse, and Day of the Triffods, and Count of Monte Cristo.  All of those he would probably say were fun books in his eyes. He did really love House of Leaves.   Even Tinker Tailor Soldier and the Spy seemed easier because of the content rather than the ease of the language/techniques of the book.

 

My ds has similar tastes for his free reading, so I asked him for ideas. He suggests: Heinlein, Arthur C. Clarke, Michael Crichton, and all of Jules Verne. He also mentioned Lost World by Conan Doyle in case your ds hasn't seen that one yet.

 

And if you haven't seen Ready Player One, it's a hugely entertaining dystopian. Especially for children of the 80s and/or video game enthusiasts. My ds is neither, but he still loved it. I wouldn't call it school reading by any means, though!