Weight loss - some honest data to consider

[Greta]

If it's at all like mine, I don't experience true, physical hunger anymore. What got messed up (for me) happened during radiation, so your guess is as good as mine as to specifically why. No one has given me a good answer. I can literally go for at least a day and probably far more without feeling the slightest twinge of hunger even if I'm smelling something delicious.

What an interesting and mysterious experience! I'm sure it must have drawbacks and presentss complications. Do you find that you miss that sensation? Is food less satisfying now that you don't get really hungry for it?

[regentrude]

But are they sedentary out of will, or because their metabolism is such that the calories they eat go to fat and are not available to be burned for fuel, making them feel tired/inactive? Again, it's a chicken and egg thing. You are describing behaviors, but that doesn't tell us WHY one person in the family eats more and walks less. What if eating more and having less energy is a symptom, not the cause? That is what we are trying to get at. 

 

It is not having less energy. My dad says himself he is simply too lazy to go and move. He does not wish to, and did not wish to either when he was a young man of normal weight. He is not tired. He just does not like physical activity.

 

ETA: If you want to look for any deeper reason, it may have, if at all, to do with the attitudes surrounding food in his family of origin. With my grandma and great grandma, food was extremely important. Rich sauces, home baking. Eat some more, kid. Empty your plate. I love you, so here's another helping of dumpling. It was definitely Grandma's love language, and I don't know to what degree that affected my father when she raised him. He's an only child, his father got killed in the war, I'm sure there is a lot of subconscious baggage tied to meals and food. But none of this explains the aversion to physical activity and the active resistance to all suggestions that he should simply move a bit more to be more healthy. Even as a youth, his chosen sport was.. chess.

[regentrude]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that he over-eats. But you're saying he eats a normal amount, he is just extremely sedentary?

 

Edit - sorry, no you said right there in the part I quoted "he eats too much". So in other words, it takes a much larger meal than what his body actually needs in order for him to feel satisfied. And you and I have different theories as to why.

 

He does not consume ridiculous amounts of calories, and he does not eat junk. He just eats good, rich meals - but they exceed in calories what he would require to maintain the energy balance for his sedentary lifestyle.

And it's not "in order to feel satisfied" - the food is there, it tastes good, so he eats.

 

[ktgrok]

He does not consume ridiculous amounts of calories, and he does not eat junk. He just eats good, rich meals - but they exceed in calories what he would require to maintain the energy balance for his sedentary lifestyle.

And it's not "in order to feel satisfied" - the food is there, it tastes good, so he eats.

 

 

But the food is there in front of your mom too, and it tastes good to her too. Why doesn't she eat as much as he does?

[Bluegoat]

One of the things that has been suggested as increasing people's eating is television.  They have found people will eat quite a lot more when they are watching, because it is distracted eating.  Kids watching tv (and other screens may be similar) is huge, so that could be a lot of snacking.

 

Another issue is what signals people expect should tell them to eat, and to stop.  Ideally, people should eat when they feel substantially hungry and it is time to eat.  We've developed a cultural habit though of eating as soon as we feel any small sense of hunger - that is where the kids snacking thing seems to come from.  So people learn that a small sense of hunger means - eat now.  And on the other end, ideally people stop eating when they no longer feel hungry.  But many people think they should stop eating when they feel full, which is quite a different thing.

 

Eating very quickly can also make a difference, because it takes time for the body to feel full.  So people who bolt their food - like kids in school often have to do, and kids in a lot of activities even more - they may eat more calories than they would if they ate slower.  And - they will mess up their sense of when to feel full.

 

The increase in portions seems to be cultural - it hasn't happened in every western country, and not all at the same time.  I think it has in many cases been a gimmick, but its distorted our sense of normal.  If you grow up eating abnormal portions, they just seem normal.

[regentrude]

But the food is there in front of your mom too, and it tastes good to her too. Why doesn't she eat as much as he does?

 

Because she has a feeling of hunger and then a feeling of not being hungry anymore. She stops eating when she is no longer hungry. And she has a realistic sense of portion size.

 

And, also important: if she puts on a few pounds, like over the holidays, she gets active immediately and does not let it escalate. I have never seen her on a diet, ever; she'll simply refrain from deserts and sweets and walks some more until she is back to normal. In my parent's case, it definitely comes down to willpower.

 

[ktgrok]

Because she has a feeling of hunger and then a feeling of not being hungry anymore. She stops eating when she is no longer hungry. And she has a realistic sense of portion size.

 

And, also important: if she puts on a few pounds, like over the holidays, she gets active immediately and does not let it escalate. I have never seen her on a diet, ever; she'll simply refrain from deserts and sweets and walks some more until she is back to normal. In my parent's case, it definitely comes down to willpower.

 

 

If your mother would drink a glass of wine a night, and your father was an alcoholic drinking several bottles of wine a night, would you say it was just that she had more will power? Or would you acknowlege there is a deeper reason. 

 

You say your mom feels hungry, then doesn't after eating a reasonable amount. Why doesn't your father have this same sensation? Does your mother want to eat much more, but stops herself with will power? Or does she just not want that much more?

[regentrude]

If your mother would drink a glass of wine a night, and your father was an alcoholic drinking several bottles of wine a night, would you say it was just that she had more will power? Or would you acknowlege there is a deeper reason. 

 

You say your mom feels hungry, then doesn't after eating a reasonable amount. Why doesn't your father have this same sensation? Does your mother want to eat much more, but stops herself with will power? Or does she just not want that much more?

 

I see no indication that my dad is addicted to food. The comparison with the alcoholic is incorrect - because if nobody prepared a meal, he'd be OK munching an apple and a piece of cheese. He'd not go out and overeat on fast food or seek out any food he can find.

 

At some times, my mother makes the conscious choice not to have, say, a desert, because she gained some weight that she wants to lose. She may want the desert, but is exercising will power. She is the type of person who can rationally realize that it is unnecessary to eat xyz and simply won't.

And willpower definitely comes in for example when she decides that she should be walking every day and not take the bus. She walks because it is good for her to get the exercise. It would certainly  be more convenient to take the bus. It takes willpower to resist getting on the bus and use her feet.

My dad would benefit from the same. But he does not have the willpower to make the effort and not choose the convenient way. For decades, he drove everywhere.

 

 I am pretty sure the reason dad never feels hungry is related to his eating in a way that is disconnected from his body's caloric needs. If you do that for decades, you mess up the natural regulatory mechanisms.

 

[creekland]

What an interesting and mysterious experience! I'm sure it must have drawbacks and presentss complications. Do you find that you miss that sensation? Is food less satisfying now that you don't get really hungry for it?

 

The only complication from it has been convincing family members that I'm not hungry and don't want to eat (or eat that much).  They see me eating small amounts - or skipping meals - and continuously tell me it's not right - that I'll end up hurting myself in the long run.  I finally have hubby "fixed," but with my mom or in-laws it's just easier to eat than to change them.  I've learned to spread out the food and eat slowly, etc.  I also try to keep up on various health things (like blood levels of "stuff") and share them with family to help ease their minds.  So far, nothing has been out of line, but about this time next week I'll know if that's still true.  If not, I'll fix what I need to.  I don't want to mess up other things.

 

Food all tastes the same, so nothing missed there.  I end up with more leftovers to enjoy later, though often I share them with hubby so he wins too in a way.

 

I definitely do not miss the sensation. I hope it never returns!

 

I've actually come to dislike the feeling full bit to be honest.  It's ok when it's just Thanksgiving or Christmas or some special dinner, but when with my mom or in-laws and eating full meals 3x per day it's almost continuous, and yet they want to eat AGAIN.  That's super annoying.  I put up with it on our vacation trips, but then we're also splurging on meals that are super tasty, etc.  And if it's just our vacation - no one else to answer to or criticize it - then I can also skip a meal and hubby no longer fusses.  Since he now is interested in losing weight too, he'll sometimes skip with me (both at home and on trips).  He's also switched to smaller portions at home, is losing weight, and is finding out the typical portion size we humans often have is more out of habit than need.  I agree with those who are suggesting a good part of portions is conditioning. 

[Greta]

He does not consume ridiculous amounts of calories, and he does not eat junk. He just eats good, rich meals - but they exceed in calories what he would require to maintain the energy balance for his sedentary lifestyle.

And it's not "in order to feel satisfied" - the food is there, it tastes good, so he eats.

 

It sounds like you are saying that you believe that your father not only eats more food than he needs, but also more food than he wants. Like he's bored and doesn't have anything better to do. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one. My experience is that once I've had enough food, I feel satisfied, as in my brain shuts off any further interest in or desire for food. Are you saying that your Dad just keeps eating anyway, even though he doesn't want any more food?

 

I'm sorry if I sound dense (I know I'm not thinking clearly today) and I'm truly not trying to just be argumentative. I just honestly don't understand what you're getting at.

[regentrude]

It sounds like you are saying that you believe that your father not only eats more food than he needs, but also more food than he wants. Like he's bored and doesn't have anything better to do. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one. My experience is that once I've had enough food, I feel satisfied, as in my brain shuts off any further interest in or desire for food. Are you saying that your Dad just keeps eating anyway, even though he doesn't want any more food?

 

Oh no, he wants it as long as it tastes good. And mainly at meals. Yes, there is some snacking, but not overly much, and little boredom eating.

 

The bolded is not typically for many people. All the people munching snacks while watching TV want the food, but they usually are not hungry. Most people (myself included) have times and situations where we eat food we don't need - because of boredom, stress, situation, culture, habit. If you truly only eat when you are hungry, you are a rare exception.

 

(ETA: I munch when I grade. The worse the papers, the more I feel the need to snack. If I am organized, I prep carrots or apples for eating in long grading sessions such as tests. But today's homework grading, I had to get up and munch chips and cereal.  I'll, however, make up for it by not having dinner.)

[creekland]

It sounds like you are saying that you believe that your father not only eats more food than he needs, but also more food than he wants. Like he's bored and doesn't have anything better to do. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one. My experience is that once I've had enough food, I feel satisfied, as in my brain shuts off any further interest in or desire for food. Are you saying that your Dad just keeps eating anyway, even though he doesn't want any more food?

 

I'm sorry if I sound dense (I know I'm not thinking clearly today) and I'm truly not trying to just be argumentative. I just honestly don't understand what you're getting at.

 

Hubby has realized he eats food just because it's expected that he will eat it.  Being hungry or not is not a factor.  If the food is on his plate, he eats it.  If others add food to his plate, he eats it.  Quite a bit is expectations, not hunger.  Sometimes a food just tastes really, really good, so he eats more of it than he needs from hunger.

 

He's working through a bit of that now as he's decided to lose weight.

 

My brain has learned to shut off the desire to eat when I'm full, but I suspect it took a couple of months of eating less for that aspect to work.  It works well now.  I just can't say when it started.

[ktgrok]

I see no indication that my dad is addicted to food. The comparison with the alcoholic is incorrect - because if nobody prepared a meal, he'd be OK munching an apple and a piece of cheese. He'd not go out and overeat on fast food or seek out any food he can find.

 

At some times, my mother makes the conscious choice not to have, say, a desert, because she gained some weight that she wants to lose. She may want the desert, but is exercising will power. She is the type of person who can rationally realize that it is unnecessary to eat xyz and simply won't.

And willpower definitely comes in forexample when she decides that she should be walking every day and not take the bus. She walks because it is good for her to get the exercise. It would certainly  be more convenient to take the bus. It takes willpower to resist getting on the bus and use her feet.

My dad would benefit from the same. But he does not have the willpower to make the effort and not choose the convenient way. For decades, he drove everywhere.

 

 I am pretty sure the reason dad never feels hungry is related to his eating in a way that is disconnected from his body's caloric needs. If you do that for decades, you mess up the natural regulatory mechanisms.

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree. Your mother now and then choosing to forgo dessert isn't what I mean. I meant, at each meal, does she want to keep eating because it is there and tastes good, but stops herself with sheer will power, or does she just feel satisfied and therefore doesn't keep eating past what her body needs? If she stops because she just doesn't really care for any more, why doesn't your father?

 

And yes, food is very much an addiction for many.

[Greta]

Oh no, he wants it as long as it tastes good. And mainly at meals. Yes, there is some snacking, but not overly much, and little boredom eating.

 

The bolded is not typically for many people. All the people munching snacks while watching TV want the food, but they usually are not hungry. Most people (myself included) have times and situations where we eat food we don't need - because of boredom, stress, situation, culture, habit. If you truly only eat when you are hungry, you are a rare exception.

 

(ETA: I munch when I grade. The worse the papers, the more I feel the need to snack. If I am organized, I prep carrots or apples for eating in long grading sessions such as tests. But today's homework grading, I had to get up and munch chips and cereal. I'll, however, make up for it by not having dinner.)

I should have qualified my statement. IF I am eating foods that are rich in fat and protein and limited in carbs, THEN my interest in food will shut off like a switch once I've had enough. If I eat refined carbs, then there seems to be no limit to my appetite. That is why I blame (at least in part) the modern diet that is so high in refined carbs for our tendency to overeat. Because that has been my personal experience. I do not really have a tendency to eat out of boredom, stress, etc. and that's just pure dumb luck, I suspect. I inherited that tendency from my dad. But my mom is very different in that regard.

 

Thank you for explaining further. I think I see what you're getting at. Kind of a "wanting it just because it's there" sort of thing?

[regentrude]

We will have to agree to disagree. Your mother now and then choosing to forgo dessert isn't what I mean. I meant, at each meal, does she want to keep eating because it is there and tastes good, but stops herself with sheer will power, or does she just feel satisfied and therefore doesn't keep eating past what her body needs? If she stops because she just doesn't really care for any more, why doesn't your father?

 

And yes, food is very much an addiction for many.

 

Because, as I explained before, he has no natural sensation of hunger and thus does not feel "not hungry anymore".

He eats because it tastes good. And his portion sizes would be no problem if he were more active. He is not stuffing his face with absurd amounts of food, he does not even finish his plate in a restaurant meal - he simply eats more than he would need to satisfy his caloric needs.

He is, by the way, a rather picky eater and won't eat just any food. If it's not prepared the way he wants it, he won't eat it.

Plus, he drinks juice. He does not like to drink water. If he replaced the juice by water, that would probably suffice. He just chooses not to. I do not for a moment believe he is addicted to apple juice.

[regentrude]

I think I see what you're getting at. Kind of a "wanting it just because it's there" sort of thing?

 

Exactly. Just like I walk to the fridge and eat ice cream because it is there.

If I don't buy ice cream, I have no cravings for any. I am most definitely not addicted to ice cream or any other food. But I enjoy yummy food when it is there. And eat it.

 

[Guest]

You know how it is when you thoughtfully craft a long post, head off to retrieve the relevant links and then - POOF! The post evaporates? Yeah, that happened to me with this topic.

 

There are so many food-related things that are different now from twenty-thirty years ago. Large dishes. Gigantic restaurant portions. Shopping warehouses. Giant refrigerators and pantries. The grazing mentality. These are just a few factors that are plain to anyone 40 years old or older.

 

I just returned from the family beach house, where many of the dishes and utensils are antiques. They are small. The drinking glasses hold 8oz. The spoons are literally teaspoon-sized. Even the serving utensils are not much larger than the average soupspoon. Now, if I look at spoons offered for sale at Target, they look like Paul Bunyan spoons. It's as if we must take a gigantic bite of each thing we eat; hurry up, shovel it in. It is so inelegant.

 

In the book Madame Chic, the author points out a feature of American homes I never thought much about: the open-plan, central kitchen. It's like an invitation to constantly eat. Thoughts of food, and the habit of noshing, is sort of a centerpiece all the time.

 

Our kids are growing up with a drastically different eating concept than the one we "old timers" grew up with: grazing. Dr. Sears told us to let our kids rummage for snacks whenever they might be so inclined. I did think he was right for a short while, but Then I could see what was happening. One, there was a tendency to let snack quality decline, because I'm not a short-order cook. I don't want to prepare healthy snacks twelve times a day, especially when I already put in a greater-than-average effort on home-cooked dinners. Two, I could see that snackers really do have less appetite (Grandma was right) and are not motivated to eat the asperagus. Three, I don't want my kitchen to be a perpetual mess. So I quit the grazing thing. But a generation of kids have grown up this way. As Consumer Reports recently detailed, snacking has added some three hundred daily calories to each American's diet. And don't I know it to be true, when I take my kid to any sports game. We must have the ubiquitous snacks with every game, plus Gatorades or juice boxes. This was not done when I was a kid, and I don't recall any instance of kids passing out from lost electrolytes.

 

Consider caloric beverages. My grandmother never bought a Grande Caramel Mochiatta. People did not used to buy 800-calorie-$4 drinks ever, let alone on a regular basis. But people obviously do now. If they did not sell, they would not still be offered.

 

Consider the rise of the warehouse store, with its giant shopping carts and 48-bar-boxes of Rice Krispie Treats. My grandmother would not have dreamed of spending $12 on a giant box of pre-packaged treats in her wildest nightmare. Yet, now it is routine.

 

Socially, too, Americans are so different about food and over-eating than we once were. We see people eating all the time, whereas this was once considered rude. Eating at the desk, eating in the car, eating on the soccer field - there is no longer any social taboo (in America) against noshing - feasting, even - anytime one feels so moved, no matter how smelly, distracting or messy one's food might be. So dive into your chicken nuggets while sitting in History class! No matter! *rolling my eyes*

 

I understand that there are different body types, hormonal roles, metabolic failures and psychological factors at play in American obesity. But I think, nationally, we have also ignored the role of the factors I've just mentioned. Ignoring such factors normalizes things that are not normal and the outcome is then also abnormal.

 

When I want to know how someone successfully does something that I want to do, I look for a model who appears to be doing it right. If I needed to lose a lot of weight and I had a friend who had successfully done this, I would wrack her brains for insight.

 

I do believe exercise has an important role to play; I believe women especially have not collectively tapped into the benefits of weight-bearing exercise. Having said that, retraining oneself to think differently about food and eating could go a long way. This is what I don't like about the "hunt" for an explanation for obesity that is not about calories. That philosohy tells people to ignore the man behind the curtain.

[busymama7]

I think I've mentioned before that I am being treated for hypothyroid and high insulin as well as a few other things, for symptoms and also as a means to losing weight. Now after a few weeks of taking all my medication I feel like a totally different person. I have way more energy and don't need daily naps. I am also rising earlier in the am without struggle. I do not have a crazy drive to eat any more and and have actually started exercising which was near impossible before. now that i am on this side I do wonder which came first. I am actually having to face the reality that I don't need to eat as much as I have been because now my body is regulated to not demand it. NOW I can use all those tricks like drink to be sure you aren't hungry and eat slowly and don't snack while watching tv. It is not me or my will power that has changed. There has been actual physical changes. I have been trying to lose weight desperately for 10 years and sort half heartedly for 10-15 before that. I tried things like weight watchers and thought I was going to starve even eating every point including those extra for nursing. I seriously couldn't stay on it as I was foggy headed and hungry all. The. Time. 😡 I didn't lose either.

 

I am now watching my kids and of the 9 living, 2 are starting to head down my path. They have a drive to eat carbs and sugar that the others don't. Believe me when I say their behavior is different. Same household same meals same treats etc. I really am wondering what else is going on behind the scenes in our bodies and have a hard time blaming them as somehow weaker.

[Greta]

Exactly. Just like I walk to the fridge and eat ice cream because it is there.

If I don't buy ice cream, I have no cravings for any. I am most definitely not addicted to ice cream or any other food. But I enjoy yummy food when it is there. And eat it.

Yeah, I definitely think we are all at least somewhat vulnerable to the power of suggestion. This morning when I wasn't even hungry, my husband mentioned wanting a donut. Then I wanted a donut. I don't eat donuts, and I didn't eat a donut, but yeah I wanted a donut! So I'm certainly not impervious to situational or social eating.

 

But I also don't believe that it's purely a matter of willpower, either. I have almost no willpower. What I do have is an appetite/satiety mechanism that works properly when I eat the right foods.

[Jane in NC]

I do wonder how much of eating is a conditioned response.

 

My husband grew up with older brothers and a mother who really did not prepare enough food for her growing boys.  She plated portions that were adequate for her middle aged self and then allowed seconds after those plates were cleaned.  It was a horrible system!  The boys did not converse at dinner; they ate as fast as possible in order to have seconds.

 

The "boys" are now middle aged.  They continue to shovel food unless they are reminded to slow down. All are overweight.

 

My husband has really had to think about whether he needs seconds now. His first plate of food is more than adequate.  Seconds are a conditional response for him.

 

My personal challenge has been to slow down while eating with this guy.  Typically, I have a half plate of food left while his is gone.  And I am trying to eat even more slowly which makes the situation more awkward.  But it is what it is. My attempt to reduce portion size and eat more slowly is paying off--and he sees it. 

[creekland]

Yeah, I definitely think we are all at least somewhat vulnerable to the power of suggestion. This morning when I wasn't even hungry, my husband mentioned wanting a donut. Then I wanted a donut. I don't eat donuts, and I didn't eat a donut, but yeah I wanted a donut! So I'm certainly not impervious to situational or social eating.

 

Another food blessing - this one from birth.  I don't particularly like donuts or most sweet type baked foods (youngest has inherited this from me).

 

What I had to learn was how to tactfully say no instead of eating them out of politeness when they are offered.

 

And at my in-laws, I still have to figure this out.  It's not always easy, esp when the offering folks are older.  Fortunately, with other friends, this has become much easier today as more people gain at least a little knowledge of health and people having different food issues.  (I tend to blame my parent's diabetes and not wanting to follow their path - friends nod accordingly and aren't offended.)

[Greta]

Our kids are growing up with a drastically different eating concept than the one we "old timers" grew up with: grazing.

For sure! When I was a kid, they were still teaching three square meals a day from the four food groups. Now, I hear people advocating six (6!!!) small meals a day from the food pyramid (in other words, starches, starches, and more starches). It's like people never give their bodies a chance to experience normal blood sugar ranges.

[Guest]

The bolded is not typically for many people. All the people munching snacks while watching TV want the food, but they usually are not hungry. Most people (myself included) have times and situations where we eat food we don't need - because of boredom, stress, situation, culture, habit. If you truly only eat when you are hungry, you are a rare exception.

Yes. Yesterday, I was sitting on the pier with friends and relatives, and a bag of Salt & Vinegar chips was open right in front of me. I ate a few chips, then held one up and declared, "this is me eating mindlessly. I am not hungry. I am literally eating these only because they are here and I like that salt/vinegar taste, so I'm eating them." :D Kind of ironic that I mindfully realized I was mindlessly eating, right?

[creekland]

Yes. Yesterday, I was sitting on the pier with friends and relatives, and a bag of Salt & Vinegar chips was open right in front of me. I ate a few chips, then held one up and declared, "this is me eating mindlessly. I am not hungry. I am literally eating these only because they are here and I like that salt/vinegar taste, so I'm eating them." :D Kind of ironic that I mindfully realized I was mindlessly eating, right?

 

My weakness... chips... Herr's Sour Cream & Onion... FIL's favorite, so we take him two bags, and when he opens one... well, he isn't the only one eating them.

 

These are far worse than donuts for me.  He could have had a whole box of donuts and I wouldn't have the slightest temptation!

 

No chips in our house if we don't have boys home... or at least there are rarely chips in our house if we don't have boys home.  It's better that way!

[Guest]

My weakness... chips... Herr's Sour Cream & Onion... FIL's favorite, so we take him two bags, and when he opens one... well, he isn't the only one eating them.

 

These are far worse than donuts for me. He could have had a whole box of donuts and I wouldn't have the slightest temptation!

 

No chips in our house if we don't have boys home... or at least there are rarely chips in our house if we don't have boys home. It's better that way!

So true. For me, I'm picky about chips. Some I like and others are quite Meh. It is always a good thing for me to buy the chips I am very Meh about. The three it is better if I simply never buy:

Lays Dill Pickle

UTZ Salt & Vinegar

and Sour Cream & Onion. Yummy.

[creekland]

So true. For me, I'm picky about chips. Some I like and others are quite Meh. It is always a good thing for me to buy the chips I am very Meh about. The three it is better if I simply never buy:

Lays Dill Pickle

UTZ Salt & Vinegar

and Sour Cream & Onion. Yummy.

 

The feeling full bit helps here.  Even typing about it now I  :ack2: at the thought of eating them.

 

It didn't help much at lunch time the past couple of days there when the bag was open right next to me, but I did only take a few, not hoards!

 

Considering breakfast this morning was at McD's (I didn't pick it) and hubby and I might have stopped at Steak & Shake (my pick this time :blushing: ) for lunch (not from hunger - from a love of good milkshakes and not having one anywhere near our house... and missing our traditional monthly anniversary meal over the weekend) then already feeling stuffed from the weekend... I can't think of a single food that is tempting for me at the moment.  Even chips.

 

Out of curiosity I just asked hubby if he's hungry.  "Not really" was his reply.  I think we're both still stuffed from the weekend (and maybe lunch).  Fortunately, lunch weight gain is still blamed on the in-laws.  It was a trip to see them, after all!  (And our other favorite place along the way - authentic gyros - wouldn't have changed much weight-wise.)

[Guest]

Another food blessing - this one from birth. I don't particularly like donuts or most sweet type baked foods (youngest has inherited this from me).

 

What I had to learn was how to tactfully say no instead of eating them out of politeness when they are offered.

 

And at my in-laws, I still have to figure this out. It's not always easy, esp when the offering folks are older. Fortunately, with other friends, this has become much easier today as more people gain at least a little knowledge of health and people having different food issues. (I tend to blame my parent's diabetes and not wanting to follow their path - friends nod accordingly and aren't offended.)

I do think there is a fair amount of social pressure to eat as others are, whether or not it is what you would do on your own. I do think I annoy some people sometimes because I tend not to bow to social food/drink pressures. Honestly, there have been people I stopped sharing meals with because they were too scrutinizing of whether I ate/drank what they did and how much. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be fat, sick or drunk to fill someone else's need for food and beverage validation, and if a "friend" requires that, then they aren't a friend of mine, KWIM?

 

I realize this is more difficult with family, especially older families and especially if they come from that Italian Grandmother type of culture; "EAT! My God, you don't eat enough to keep a fly alive!" *makes the sign of the cross* :D

[PeachyDoodle]

We will have to agree to disagree. Your mother now and then choosing to forgo dessert isn't what I mean. I meant, at each meal, does she want to keep eating because it is there and tastes good, but stops herself with sheer will power, or does she just feel satisfied and therefore doesn't keep eating past what her body needs? If she stops because she just doesn't really care for any more, why doesn't your father?

 

And yes, food is very much an addiction for many.

 

(Just to be clear, I'm not picking on you, Katie. These points are intended to be general. And super-big kudos on your weight loss! :) )

 

That said, I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. When I was a kid, my grandmother used to tell me to stop snacking or "you'll spoil your supper." I literally had no idea what that meant. When it was time to eat supper, I'd just... eat supper. Why wouldn't I? I had no concept of hunger or fullness. So whether or not this is the case for regentrude's father, I agree with you that, yes, this phenomenon exists. (See again my description of my own relationship to eating versus that of my mother and sisters.)

 

What I don't understand is the need to have an explanation for this -- or perhaps I mean the sense that people dealing with this issue are incapable of overcoming it via willpower. The very concept of willpower implies that you are overcoming a difficulty by mental restraint. So to say that people who are unable to do so in the arena of food lack willpower is a statement of fact. Perhaps it is an unfair judgment coming from someone who does not struggle in this particular area -- but am I allowed to say it?

 

People struggle with the urge to do all kinds of things they know they shouldn't: get angry, lie, cheat, steal, the list goes on. We rightfully expect others to control themselves and overcome these urges using their willpower. I just don't see why overeating is so much different that it requires scientific intervention to overcome it. Like so many things, it may have biological underpinnings, but it is primarily behavioral.

 

Someone with anger issues (who wants to change) realizes that he has a tendency to overreact and learns to count to 10 and take deep breaths to calm down. I know that overeating is something I am prone to, so I also have to compensate. Our Hulk has to learn that just because he *feels* angry doesn't mean he *has* to throw things. I had to learn the same thing. I am careful about what I allow myself to be around (on a regular basis) because I know what kinds of foods are my triggers. I have had to train myself to recognize an *actual* reasonable portion, because my stomach won't tell me what one is. I exercise for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that it does help with controlling my urge to overeat. And I can attest that since I have stopped eating so much (using my willpower), I find that it is easier for me to recognize hunger and fullness.

 

I'm certainly not opposed to further research on all this! But I just don't see what's so wrong with saying that what's called for in the vast majority of these cases is some good, old-fashioned willpower. (As I've said before, I do believe there is a spiritual aspect to all of this as well, but it still ties in to the need for willpower.)

 

You know how it is when you thoughtfully craft a long post, head off to retrieve the relevant links and then - POOF! The post evaporates? Yeah, that happened to me with this topic.

 

There are so many food-related things that are different now from twenty-thirty years ago. Large dishes. Gigantic restaurant portions. Shopping warehouses. Giant refrigerators and pantries. The grazing mentality. These are just a few factors that are plain to anyone 40 years old or older.

 

I just returned from the family beach house, where many of the dishes and utensils are antiques. They are small. The drinking glasses hold 8oz. The spoons are literally teaspoon-sized. Even the serving utensils are not much larger than the average soupspoon. Now, if I look at spoons offered for sale at Target, they look like Paul Bunyan spoons. It's as if we must take a gigantic bite of each thing we eat; hurry up, shovel it in. It is so inelegant.

 

In the book Madame Chic, the author points out a feature of American homes I never thought much about: the open-plan, central kitchen. It's like an invitation to constantly eat. Thoughts of food, and the habit of noshing, is sort of a centerpiece all the time.

 

Our kids are growing up with a drastically different eating concept than the one we "old timers" grew up with: grazing. Dr. Sears told us to let our kids rummage for snacks whenever they might be so inclined. I did think he was right for a short while, but Then I could see what was happening. One, there was a tendency to let snack quality decline, because I'm not a short-order cook. I don't want to prepare healthy snacks twelve times a day, especially when I already put in a greater-than-average effort on home-cooked dinners. Two, I could see that snackers really do have less appetite (Grandma was right) and are not motivated to eat the asperagus. Three, I don't want my kitchen to be a perpetual mess. So I quit the grazing thing. But a generation of kids have grown up this way. As Consumer Reports recently detailed, snacking has added some three hundred daily calories to each American's diet. And don't I know it to be true, when I take my kid to any sports game. We must have the ubiquitous snacks with every game, plus Gatorades or juice boxes. This was not done when I was a kid, and I don't recall any instance of kids passing out from lost electrolytes.

 

Consider caloric beverages. My grandmother never bought a Grande Caramel Mochiatta. People did not used to buy 800-calorie-$4 drinks ever, let alone on a regular basis. But people obviously do now. If they did not sell, they would not still be offered.

 

Consider the rise of the warehouse store, with its giant shopping carts and 48-bar-boxes of Rice Krispie Treats. My grandmother would not have dreamed of spending $12 on a giant box of pre-packaged treats in her wildest nightmare. Yet, now it is routine.

 

Socially, too, Americans are so different about food and over-eating than we once were. We see people eating all the time, whereas this was once considered rude. Eating at the desk, eating in the car, eating on the soccer field - there is no longer any social taboo (in America) against noshing - feasting, even - anytime one feels so moved, no matter how smelly, distracting or messy one's food might be. So dive into your chicken nuggets while sitting in History class! No matter! *rolling my eyes*

 

I understand that there are different body types, hormonal roles, metabolic failures and psychological factors at play in American obesity. But I think, nationally, we have also ignored the role of the factors I've just mentioned. Ignoring such factors normalizes things that are not normal and the outcome is then also abnormal.

 

When I want to know how someone successfully does something that I want to do, I look for a model who appears to be doing it right. If I needed to lose a lot of weight and I had a friend who had successfully done this, I would wrack her brains for insight.

 

I do believe exercise has an important role to play; I believe women especially have not collectively tapped into the benefits of weight-bearing exercise. Having said that, retraining oneself to think differently about food and eating could go a long way. This is what I don't like about the "hunt" for an explanation for obesity that is not about calories. That philosohy tells people to ignore the man behind the curtain.

 

I KNEW there was a reason why I'm so vehemently opposed to the open-concept kitchen!! :)

 

Your last paragraph is dead on, Quill. To me, as someone who has struggled with weight issues for a lifetime, it is depressing to think there is something causing my problems that is beyond my control until some scientist out there figures it out. Like I have some kind of incurable disease. That's even more disheartening than thinking about the amount of work it takes for me to lose via willpower.

[staceyobu]

.

 

Our kids are growing up with a drastically different eating concept than the one we "old timers" grew up with: grazing. Dr. Sears told us to let our kids rummage for snacks whenever they might be so inclined. I did think he was right for a short while, but Then I could see what was happening. One, there was a tendency to let snack quality decline, because I'm not a short-order cook. I don't want to prepare healthy snacks twelve times a day, especially when I already put in a greater-than-average effort on home-cooked dinners. Two, I could see that snackers really do have less appetite (Grandma was right) and are not motivated to eat the asperagus. Three, I don't want my kitchen to be a perpetual mess. So I quit the grazing thing. But a generation of kids have grown up this way. As Consumer Reports recently detailed, snacking has added some three hundred daily calories to each American's diet. And don't I know it to be true, when I take my kid to any sports game. We must have the ubiquitous snacks with every game, plus Gatorades or juice boxes. This was not done when I was a kid, and I don't recall any instance of kids passing out from lost electrolytes.

This is not a comment on the causes of obesity but rather on the general crappy food culture of the US.

 

Recently, the kids have done swim lessons where they were awarded candy treats for behaving in class.

 

One of my girls had a ballet "room mom" that threw a monthly party after the 45 minute ballet class that involved cupcakes, cookies, and candy.

 

We attended a co-op that briefly extended the morning to 3 hours. Parents threw a fit that children (aged 5 and up... not toddlers) were unable to attend classes that long without a midmorning snack.

 

It is irritating when I sign my kids up for physical activities to burn calories and they leave having taken in more calories than they burned. I also don't get the "you can't survive without a snack" mentality. In elementary school, I attended all day with no food other than a 25 minute lunch break. There were no snacks. I understand that there may be the rare child with health issues. But, for most of us, we are just getting fat.

 

I read awhile back an article about why the French are so skinny. The author made a point that being overweight is really frowned on there. It is much more acceptable to smoke. It isn't acceptable to snack. I can also remember traveling to Eastern Europe in college and having a Hungarian college student tell me that her parents would tell her not to eat so much or she would wind up looking like a fat American. I was appalled that her parents would say that. Of course, she was quite thin.

 

There are so, so, so many factors at play in weight. I'm always interested in learning more.

[Ausmumof3]

But are they sedentary out of will, or because their metabolism is such that the calories they eat go to fat and are not available to be burned for fuel, making them feel tired/inactive? Again, it's a chicken and egg thing. You are describing behaviors, but that doesn't tell us WHY one person in the family eats more and walks less. What if eating more and having less energy is a symptom, not the cause? That is what we are trying to get at.

 

If your dad was an alcholic and you were not, you could say ,well it's obvious, he's an alcoholic because he drinks too much. (in other words, he's obese because he eats too much). But that wouldn't explain WHY he's drinking so much, you know? He drinks so much BECAUSE he's an alcoholic. We are looking for the "WHY" behind eating more, or not burning calories, etc. There is something deeper there.

Double like this.

I am not huge but keep putting on weight. I know this is because I'm eating too much and exercising too little. But... When I eat less I get headaches and brain fog. And if I push myself to exercise hard I don't have the energy to perform basic tasks. So I can either keep gaining weight or feel tired and awful all the time.

[Greta]

the general crappy food culture of the US.

That's a good description! And I have experienced many of the same things you mentioned. It seems like when my daughter was little, we couldn't go anywhere or do anything without people trying to stuff her full of sugar.

[Greta]

Double like this.

I am not huge but keep putting on weight. I know this is because I'm eating too much and exercising too little. But... When I eat less I get headaches and brain fog. And if I push myself to exercise hard I don't have the energy to perform basic tasks. So I can either keep gaining weight or feel tired and awful all the time.

The limits of CICO. Very frustrating.

 

I can't drop my calorie intake much because I have hypoglycemia. But I could exercise more, no doubt about that.

[ktgrok]

Yes. Yesterday, I was sitting on the pier with friends and relatives, and a bag of Salt & Vinegar chips was open right in front of me. I ate a few chips, then held one up and declared, "this is me eating mindlessly. I am not hungry. I am literally eating these only because they are here and I like that salt/vinegar taste, so I'm eating them." :D Kind of ironic that I mindfully realized I was mindlessly eating, right?

 

Those chips are designed by fortune 500 companies to be as addictive as possible to your brain. There is a reason you keep eating them..they have exactly the amount of sugar, fat, and salt to be most addictive to our bodies. 

[ktgrok]

 

What I don't understand is the need to have an explanation for this -- or perhaps I mean the sense that people dealing with this issue are incapable of overcoming it via willpower. The very concept of willpower implies that you are overcoming a difficulty by mental restraint. So to say that people who are unable to do so in the arena of food lack willpower is a statement of fact. Perhaps it is an unfair judgment coming from someone who does not struggle in this particular area -- but am I allowed to say it?

 

Well, yes, will power is needed to fight the problem, but a lack of will power isnt' what is causing the problem. In other words, often when people say the issue is one of will power they are implying that thin people have will power, and that is whey they are thin. Fat people must have much less will power, because they are fat. It turns it into a moral statement, as if the reason they are obese is that they are lacking the normal will power that thin people have. When in fact that has been PROVEN not to be the case. You can measure will power, and people who are obese are not lacking in it. 

 

Now, maybe you just mean that they need to find an EXTRA amount of will power that normal people never need, and that's a bit different. I know for me I was never going to have that amount of will power. Never. 

 

 

 

I'm certainly not opposed to further research on all this! But I just don't see what's so wrong with saying that what's called for in the vast majority of these cases is some good, old-fashioned willpower. (As I've said before, I do believe there is a spiritual aspect to all of this as well, but it still ties in to the need for willpower.)

 

Because it's asking people to do something SO hard thatmany of them just can't. Not with just will power. And then they feel ashamed and depressed because gee, everyone says it's about will power and self control. Obviously, if I can't pull it together and lose the weight I must be lacking in those things. Now I'm not just fat, I'm also weak willed and lacking self control compared to most people, and have one more reason to feel bad about myself. 

I KNEW there was a reason why I'm so vehemently opposed to the open-concept kitchen!! :)

 

Your last paragraph is dead on, Quill. To me, as someone who has struggled with weight issues for a lifetime, it is depressing to think there is something causing my problems that is beyond my control until some scientist out there figures it out. Like I have some kind of incurable disease. That's even more disheartening than thinking about the amount of work it takes for me to lose via willpower.

 

Whereas for others, thinking it's all a matter of willpower shames them every time they mess up, and makes them feel guilty for a physical problem. Many obese people end up hating themselves and having low self esteem for that reason, that they feel so dejected for "lacking will power" and being weak minded. When in reality they may very well have MORE will power than most other people. 

 

Does that make sense?

[ktgrok]

Double like this.

I am not huge but keep putting on weight. I know this is because I'm eating too much and exercising too little. But... When I eat less I get headaches and brain fog. And if I push myself to exercise hard I don't have the energy to perform basic tasks. So I can either keep gaining weight or feel tired and awful all the time.

 

Definitely a symptom of insulin resistance. The food is going to fat stores leaving you basically starving for energy even as you get fatter. 

[ktgrok]

Also, I do want to say that I also hate the crappy food culture. I hate the amount of sugar and crap being pushed EVERYWHERE. As someone who does treat it like an addiction, especially to sugar, I hate it. I do not want my kids eating that stuff all the time. So I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the biological effects of it, I guess. 

 

Also, forgot to quote, but apple juice can be addictive, in the sense that it is basically sugar water,a nd it can cause blood sugar to drop, making you want another "fix" of sugar. I actually blame a LOT of my issues on my juice habit as a kid (as does my mother..she hugely regrets it). 

[Guest]

This is not a comment on the causes of obesity but rather on the general crappy food culture of the US.

 

Recently, the kids have done swim lessons where they were awarded candy treats for behaving in class.

 

One of my girls had a ballet "room mom" that threw a monthly party after the 45 minute ballet class that involved cupcakes, cookies, and candy.

 

We attended a co-op that briefly extended the morning to 3 hours. Parents threw a fit that children (aged 5 and up... not toddlers) were unable to attend classes that long without a midmorning snack.

 

It is irritating when I sign my kids up for physical activities to burn calories and they leave having taken in more calories than they burned. I also don't get the "you can't survive without a snack" mentality. In elementary school, I attended all day with no food other than a 25 minute lunch break. There were no snacks. I understand that there may be the rare child with health issues. But, for most of us, we are just getting fat.

 

I read awhile back an article about why the French are so skinny. The author made a point that being overweight is really frowned on there. It is much more acceptable to smoke. It isn't acceptable to snack. I can also remember traveling to Eastern Europe in college and having a Hungarian college student tell me that her parents would tell her not to eat so much or she would wind up looking like a fat American. I was appalled that her parents would say that. Of course, she was quite thin.

 

There are so, so, so many factors at play in weight. I'm always interested in learning more.

Yes, to the bolded. The book I mentioned, Madame Chic talks about this. The author is an American woman who lived with a French family in college. Being overweight is frowned upon, and so is snacking, eating out and about, eating on the go. Americans do virtually to polar opposite. There is almost no social curtail on eating. There's no taboo against having a big helping or another dessert. Restaurants compete with each other to serve more gigantic portions than the other, whereas things are totally different in France.

 

It really bothers me that Americans are globally recognized as fat.

[Ausmumof3]

Also, I do want to say that I also hate the crappy food culture. I hate the amount of sugar and crap being pushed EVERYWHERE. As someone who does treat it like an addiction, especially to sugar, I hate it. I do not want my kids eating that stuff all the time. So I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the biological effects of it, I guess.

 

Also, forgot to quote, but apple juice can be addictive, in the sense that it is basically sugar water,a nd it can cause blood sugar to drop, making you want another "fix" of sugar. I actually blame a LOT of my issues on my juice habit as a kid (as does my mother..she hugely regrets it).

Yep. Mum was pretty strict about biscuits and snacks as a kid (fruit only) but I had almost unlimited access to juice.

 

Because juice is fruit right?!

[MBM]

Ok, fine, give it a different term. Why are their appetites bigger then? Is it from eating too much? Or are they eating too much because their appetite has increased?

Appetite and food intake are influenced by the hormones leptin and ghrelin.

[ktgrok]

Appetite and food intake are influenced by the hormones leptin and ghrelin.

 

As well as glucagon like peptide, peptide YYY or something like that (lazy and not looking it up), etc etc. 

 

I think just as we blamed people with depression and other mental illnesses and then later realized they were having biological issues, the same will be true of weight gain. 

[purplejackmama]

I think just as we blamed people with depression and other mental illnesses and then later realized they were having biological issues, the same will be true of weight gain.

So much of this.

 

I think some posters on this thread would be SHOCKED to see how little food this overweight person, ME, eats each day! No crazy snacking. No chips, no ice cream, etc. I eat half (or less) what my "normal skinny" friends eat.

And no juice! or soda! just straight up water in my cup and still the scale doesn't move.

There is more going on biologically/hormonally than CICO could ever explain.

[Greta]

Quill, which Madame Chic book did you read? Or did you read all of them?

[ktgrok]

So much of this.

 

I think some posters on this thread would be SHOCKED to see how little food this overweight person, ME, eats each day! No crazy snacking. No chips, no ice cream, etc. I eat half (or less) what my "normal skinny" friends eat.

And no juice! or soda! just straight up water in my cup and still the scale doesn't move.

There is more going on biologically/hormonally than CICO could ever explain.

 

Yeah, I always shake my head when people blame sugary coffee drinks, twinkies, and soda. Trust me, I haven't eaten that stuff in decades, and never did twinkies and the like. Ever. I've gone months to years eating all home cooked, ground my own flour type food. And still gained. Maybe I'm too good of a cook, but cooking with whole foods, etc didn't keep me from gaining weight. 

[Guest]

Those chips are designed by fortune 500 companies to be as addictive as possible to your brain. There is a reason you keep eating them..they have exactly the amount of sugar, fat, and salt to be most addictive to our bodies.

I do agree that food science has grown quite insidious. My DD was considering at one point majoring in Food Science, because food and nutrition is very interesting to her. I said, "That's fine, but realize that you may not end up working for some amazing organic farm somewhere, but instead may take a job working at Keebler, engineering cookies to be as addictive as possible." So, there's that.

 

However, I also agree with Peachy Doodle and regentrude, about the role of choice and decision. I do not want to be a person who would eat the whole bag of chips mindlessly. That is why I "woke up" to what I was doing. It doesn't fit with my self-concept, so I quit eating the chips. Also, as I said up-thread (and have also mentioned in other threads, like the Oreo cookie one) I know the foods that easily trip me up. Most often, I don't buy them at all. If I do buy them, I do so with mindful awareness that I will most likely eat them all.

 

One treat that I just love is Lindt Lindoor Truffles. Do you know Costco sells a *giant* bag? I never buy them at Costco. I simply never, ever do. I know once in my house, resistance is futile and I will probably gain five pounds and have a stomach ache for days because I cannot behave rationally about those damn chocolates. In this way, I agree with a lot of what Peachy said about the role of conscious resistance, i.e, will power. The will power, in this case, must come when I am at the store; I must call on the will power when it is easier to display because once they are in my house, all bets are off. There are, I'm sure, some social pressures at play at Costco, that won't exist at home. At Costco, perhaps I would feel embarrassed to have such a big bag of treats in my cart. Perhaps I will feel bothered to spend a largish amount of money on something that has no nutritive value. The point being, it is easier to use those social pressures in my favor to not buy in the first place, than to get the bag home where there is almost nothing to stop me from eating as many as I want. If I bought them and hid them, I wouldn't even have social disapproval from DH and the kids.

 

I do think there are other factors as well that...I don't know, make food taste better to some people than others, or the comfort inherant in food is more significant to some people than it is to others, so "turning it off" is easier for some than it is for others. But, I do go back to agreeing with Peachy Doodle in that we all have our impulses to tame; we all have our self-control to activate in one situation or another.

 

I would think knowing that you control what you eat and not a force beyond your control would be more comforting, even when you mess up and eat more than you meant to. I have done it, but it just doesn't inform what I do tomorrow or next week. Why do I know to never buy that big bag of chocolates? Because I have scarffed them down before; I learned that I fail to control myself well once the bag is in my house. But I don't take that personally, as in, thinking I am a weak and crappy person because I messsed up and ate all the chocolates. I just call Do-Over, KWIM? I remember the person I want to be and stop it before it gets a foot in the door.

 

I see this the same as a recovering alcoholic who simply knows he cannot go to Sturgis with his motorcycle buddies anymore. There is simply too much social pressure to drink a ton of alcohol. It doesn't mean this biker guy is weak and that he should be able to go have fun at Sturgis like his friends, while not imbibing. He is not weak; he's strong. He is strong to know to not even darken the door of the old haunts.

 

Up-thread you were asking about regentrude's mom, how she quits eating when she could eat more, i.e., whether she stops because she's satisfied or stops because she decides to. For myself, it could be a combination of either or it could be one or the other. When I stopped eating chips, it was because: 1) I "woke up" to the fact that I was eating without hunger (so satiety wasn't part of the equation) and 2) I "remembered" my self-concept and mindlessly rummaging chips doesn't fit with that. So I stopped. They taste good, but not uncontrollably good.

 

I can also relate to what regentrude said about her mom reins it in quickly if her weight creeps up. I do this too. I can withstand being hungry or feeling like I could enjoy eating an additional quantity of food, and/or feeling like I could nosh on some treats when I'm winding down for the day watching House Hunters. I might think, "Mmmm. I could really stand to nosh on some popcorn while I'm winding down here." But, if my weight has been creeping up, I might think something like, "yeah, but I don't like my weight creeping up and I don't feel like making popcorn so much. It's kind of a hassel. And I don't really need to tack another couple hundred calories onto my total today, so, no..I'll pass." After a few minutes, I will be past the hump and that will be that.

 

Please don't misunderstand...I am trying to describe my thought processes and the answer the question of "what stops me." I am not saying it should just be so simple for everyone and if it isn't, then surely the person is just weak and ineffective. I'm mostly just agreeing with Peachy Doodle in saying there is a large role here for taming one's passions...that is what I don't like about the view that calories have no role.

[creekland]

So much of this.

 

I think some posters on this thread would be SHOCKED to see how little food this overweight person, ME, eats each day! No crazy snacking. No chips, no ice cream, etc. I eat half (or less) what my "normal skinny" friends eat.

And no juice! or soda! just straight up water in my cup and still the scale doesn't move.

There is more going on biologically/hormonally than CICO could ever explain.

 

:grouphug:  Just FTR, I appreciate folks like you sharing (all in your shoes).  While this isn't the case with my overweight relatives, I know that humans are not one carbon copy of each other.  Since I'm reading these threads for info in general, I appreciate having info from many different perspectives and experiences.

 

It DOES make me less judgmental - and gives me knowledge to share with others when/if it comes up.  Most topics come up sooner or later.

[ktgrok]

I do agree that food science has grown quite insidious. My DD was considering at one point majoring in Food Science, because food and nutrition is very interesting to her. I said, "That's fine, but realize that you may not end up working for some amazing organic farm somewhere, but instead may take a job working at Keebler, engineering cookies to be as addictive as possible." So, there's that.

 

 Also, as I said up-thread (and have also mentioned in other threads, like the Oreo cookie one) I know the foods that easily trip me up. Most often, I don't buy them at all. If I do buy them, I do so with mindful awareness that I will most likely eat them all.

 

 

 

Oh, I agree. But what happens when MOST food is like that for you? Where it isn't just chips or chocolate that makes you keep eating more than you should, but also chicken and whole wheat bread and such? When you react to most food that way, life becomes pretty intolerable if you are having to rely on will power. What if EVERY time you ate you needed to use the same will power you use for lindt truffles? That is where a lot of truly mobidly obese people are. 

 

I'm not denying that I often ate too many calories, but I'm saying there is a REASON and the obvious answer of "well, just eat less" or "use smaller plates" didn't work. Because that was an act of will power I just don't posess, meaning I was always failing more than succeeding. After a few decades of failure you just end up feeling pretty bad about yourself. 

 

Since surgery, I'm no longer terrified of food, because I know I can have some, then decide not to have more. Even when i crave it, it's not the same at all. It's really odd. And liberating. I was actually at the point of HATING food that tasted good to me, because I knew I couldn't control myself and would eat too much. I didn't want to ever ever go out to eat, or make new recipes anymore, or go to parties. Because it was like taking a heroin addict to an opium den. Even if it was healthy choices. Now, sure, I didn't often binge on carrots alone,but sometimes I did. I've been known to eat 6 full servings of vegetables in one setting, with just some salt and pepper (roasted, not raw..so they did shrink down). And STILL be hungry!!! So yeah, saying "eat an apple first' or whatever people say, wasn't going to fix the problem. 

 

Then add in that the years of dieting made it so my body uses whatever calories I do restrict myself to more efficiently than a naturally thin person and for me, it was too high a hill to climb. I was never going to have that kind of will power day in and day out, minute by minute, for the rest of my life. It would be like expecting an alcoholic to drink 3 drinks a day, morning noon and night, but not drink more than that. And never slip up and fall off the wagon into total alcoholism. As one doctor has said, fighting obesity is often a matter of quitting an addiction by parts..which is nearly impossible for some. 

 

Realizing it wasn't just will power, not just a moral failing, but biology lets you explore other things like the role of glucose, leptin, grehlin, insulin, etc and try to address those factors. Go further to the root cause. For some exploring what kinds of foods to eat, using exercise to trigger better insulin sensitivity will be what works. For others, it might be medical tests and medication. For some, surgery. But as long as they are focused on will power they may never get that far, they are too busy blaming themselves. 

[ktgrok]

I will say again though, that whatever our disagreements, the perponderance of crap food is a problem. We may disagree why, but we agree it is awful. I think it's marketing addictive drugs to impressionable children, hooking them or at the least messing up their metabolism. (maybe by messing with insulin, maybe by messing with gut bacteria, maybe something else entirely). 

 

And I think that might be a trigger for something that then gets out of hand. I will agree that avoiding those things in our diets might help rprevent some problems. I started really putting on weight when I started snacking on baked low fat crackers after school. Pure glucose basically, once it was broken down, plus puberty. Then I dieted, and probably messed up my metabolism more. What's funny is my "fat" weight then is lower than my goal weight now (which is within the normal BMI). So yes, I blame junk food (and again, these were marketed as healthy..sigh) for MAYBE being a trigger, but once you are morbidly obese eliminating those things doesn't fix the problem. Like I said, even doing the 100 days of real food challenge, making everything from scratch, grinding my own grains for baked goods, etc, I STILL gained weight at a steady rate. Even while working on my feet at a fast clip, not sitting at all, lifting heavy dogs, etc, for 40 hours a week. I was NOT sedentary, I was eating "right" and still couldn't lose. 

 

 

[Guest]

Quill, which Madame Chic book did you read? Or did you read all of them?

I am reading the 20 Stylish Secrets... one right now; that is the one I'm talking about. (Caveat alert: this is a fluffy book. It is no profound scientific book on American obesity. But her observations about American home layouts were novel. I think she has a point.)

[Guest]

Oh, I agree. But what happens when MOST food is like that for you? Where it isn't just chips or chocolate that makes you keep eating more than you should, but also chicken and whole wheat bread and such? When you react to most food that way, life becomes pretty intolerable if you are having to rely on will power. What if EVERY time you ate you needed to use the same will power you use for lindt truffles? That is where a lot of truly mobidly obese people are.

I believe you.

I'm not denying that I often ate too many calories, but I'm saying there is a REASON and the obvious answer of "well, just eat less" or "use smaller plates" didn't work. Because that was an act of will power I just don't posess, meaning I was always failing more than succeeding. After a few decades of failure you just end up feeling pretty bad about yourself.

I confess, this is where it stops making sense to me. It is too far outside of my experience for me to understand. I'm not blaming you for anything; I'm saying I don't understand saying there's a reason that isn't about "just eat less." On one hand, I agree that after years and decades of inappropriate eating, the physiology could be damaged and nothing is functioning normally, which equals nothing working as it should anymore. However, what was the starting point? Was there not a point at an earlier time when those choices could have been made? Are you saying it was inevitable, that there was no possible future but for you to gain weight abnormally?

 

Since surgery, I'm no longer terrified of food, because I know I can have some, then decide not to have more. Even when i crave it, it's not the same at all. It's really odd. And liberating. I was actually at the point of HATING food that tasted good to me, because I knew I couldn't control myself and would eat too much. I didn't want to ever ever go out to eat, or make new recipes anymore, or go to parties. Because it was like taking a heroin addict to an opium den. Even if it was healthy choices. Now, sure, I didn't often binge on carrots alone,but sometimes I did. I've been known to eat 6 full servings of vegetables in one setting, with just some salt and pepper (roasted, not raw..so they did shrink down). And STILL be hungry!!! So yeah, saying "eat an apple first' or whatever people say, wasn't going to fix the problem.

 

Then add in that the years of dieting made it so my body uses whatever calories I do restrict myself to more efficiently than a naturally thin person and for me, it was too high a hill to climb. I was never going to have that kind of will power day in and day out, minute by minute, for the rest of my life. It would be like expecting an alcoholic to drink 3 drinks a day, morning noon and night, but not drink more than that. And never slip up and fall off the wagon into total alcoholism. As one doctor has said, fighting obesity is often a matter of quitting an addiction by parts..which is nearly impossible for some.

This is why you were a candidate for surgery and I am happy that you had it. I have known people IRL who went this route and they are only sorry they did not do it sooner. One guy, DH was just telling me, he says he realized now how extremely bitter and miserable he was before the surgery. His wife left and he "doesn't blame her." He does belive the incorrect food had harmed his hormones and blood sugar so fully that he could not control his attitude.

 

Realizing it wasn't just will power, not just a moral failing, but biology lets you explore other things like the role of glucose, leptin, grehlin, insulin, etc and try to address those factors. Go further to the root cause. For some exploring what kinds of foods to eat, using exercise to trigger better insulin sensitivity will be what works. For others, it might be medical tests and medication. For some, surgery. But as long as they are focused on will power they may never get that far, they are too busy blaming themselves.

This is true and correct for you. What worries me, though, is that I think for many, it is as simple as "eat less," and "choose differently." For many, if not most, this realization could come, could be repaired, before the situation has progressed to the damage you endured. Wouldn't you want that for most people?

 

 

Now...hoping all my tags worked...ETA: nope. Repairs.

[Greta]

I am reading the 20 Stylish Secrets... one right now; that is the one I'm talking about. (Caveat alert: this is a fluffy book. It is no profound scientific book on American obesity. But her observations about American home layouts were novel. I think she has a point.)

Thanks!