What do you do with the hysterical silliness?

[Ottakee]

Her birth mother is on antidepressants, and has 3 other children, one of whom is autistic. She has an uncle who is bipolar, and I think her father has some mental health issues, although that wasn't disclosed. I don't know anything about the birth father's history (except that he also used drugs.) I do know that regardless, fetal drug and alcohol exposure can lead to ADHD...So even if there isn't a genetic link, the exposure to toxins could very well have done it...

Given this, I would suggest that you seek out a top notch pediatric psychiatrist. She may or may not need meds but between the genetics, fetal alcohol, etc this is likely going to be way beyond a pediatrician.

 

They can take months to get into but ours was worth her weight in gold.

[Guest]

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[Lecka]

It is great information that you have found that joint compression is helpful.

 

You are not really looking for one thing ------ but every thing you find that is helpful, counts for so much, and can add up over time.  

 

It sounds like sensory may be one small or large part of the picture.  

 

I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of my son's sensory needs now, but it has taken a while.

 

Overstimulation can look one way, and understimulation can look another way.

 

For him ---- he has a lot of understimulation, and it does not look like understimulation in particular, but then low and behold, that is what understimulation looks like for him.  It looks like what I would think of as overstimulation.

 

Sometimes they look the same, but I know what has been going on and whether at that moment he is likely one or the other.

 

It is not that what I do for one or the other is so different, but I have a different mindset and goal, kind-of.

 

I have read some, but I have attended a few seminars by now, that are either about sensory needs and strategies, or about autism, and I go to a parent support group that has had presentations.  Also my son is in school OT, and finally we have a good experience with someone who is getting him.  This is the program used for his sensory stuff at school, I do not pay for it or have access to the pay-stuff, but it is what the school uses and I have a good impression.  It is just the thing I am familiar with.  http://www.sensationalbrain.com/

 

What I like about this is that it addresses a common criticism or concern wrt sensory.  Now -- I have heard some very reputable people who are NOT pushing a sensory-only approach, say that this common criticism is not something they see as a problem in their own experience, they think it is a bit of a made-up concern.  But it is a concern that I care about addressing.  

 

Anyway, here is the criticism:  let's say you have a child, who wants to get out of doing math, and has a history of avoidant/escape behavior (exhibiting behaviors in order to escape, avoid, or delay doing an unwanted task).  Well, what if your child finds out that if he does a certain thing or says a certain thing, then he gets to have some nice sensory thing, and not do math.  Now -- so what, right, if afterward there is a nice transition back to math.  But what if instead of a nice transition back to math, you have more of the behavior, and then you are left wondering, is this really a sensory thing, or is this just a way of trying to get out of math.

 

Now -- as I have said, I have heard that this is not something to be too concerned with, that it is viewing kids as more devious than they really are, and more manipulative than they really are, when really, they are just trying to have their needs met in the best way they know how.  

 

But anyway -- this (and others I am sure!) way of including schedules, doing sensory activities on a schedule so that they are done ahead of time (before they are really, really needed) so that the child is not put in a situation of needing to "request" them through their behavior (if they are not yet able to recognize that they are starting to need a sensory activity and request it).  It also lets you use a "preferred" sensory activity as an incentive to do a less-preferred activity and complete it, so that then it can be time for a more preferred activity.  

 

I am not sure that it includes "break cards" or requesting a break, but my son is working on this, too.  He is learning how to realize he needs a break and request a break.  The way it works for him, is that, in the first place, the "work" he is doing is not supposed to be too long or too hard for him -- it is supposed to be appropriate, as near as we can tell.  If he requests a break, he can have a timed break, but he cannot do a "highly preferred" activity (aka he can't play an iPad game) during his break.  He can have a break that is just -- not doing the work, just sitting.  Or, he can do a little relaxing break but with something that is not highly preferred.  He gets the highly preferred thing (whatever it may be) when he has finished his break, gone back to his work, and then completed his work.  Then he gets to do something highly preferred, not just when he has asked for a break (by saying "I want a break" or showing his break card, yay, or started to act like he is not doing what he is supposed to and being prompted to "ask for a break or show your break card").  This could all be over the course of 5 minutes or as long as 20 minutes, depending.  

 

My son is not someone that medication would help (the opinion at this time, from everybody who works with him or knows him and has a knowledgeable opinion), but he is helped by a behavioral kind of approach.  This is part of what a behavioral approach can look like for him.

 

I think of him as primarily needing a behavioral approach, and then we add sensory into it.

 

For other kids, they might do sensory and find that everything else falls into place, and not need further approaches.

 

It just depends on the child, you would just need to find out by experimenting and also by finding out what professionals think.  

 

My son is not considered impulsive (even though he can appear impulsive).  He is not impulsive like medication would help.  He can do things when he is motivated, and he is motivated by preferred activities, highly-preferred activities, and a good relationship.  I have seen him, countless times, go from not paying attention, to paying attention, when he is reminded that he needs to finish his work first, and then he can do something preferred.  It is a very, very good strategy with him (but not the only strategy, and not a "hammer and a nail" strategy where he will suddenly be able to do something that is not an appropriate expectation for him).   

 

In the meantime, though, if he is very understimulated or overstimulated ---- then he is not going to be able to have these other strategies be so effective.  It is important.  It is not the most important thing, but if he happens to be understimulated (more common with him honestly) then it is the most important thing at that moment, in a lot of ways.  

 

People who work with him:  I like people who are open to medication (and really, to anything:  to special diets, etc.) but who are not trying to push it on everyone.  I do not care so much about the opinion of someone who either thinks that no kids at all should take medication, or that all the kids they see should take medication.  I have not had this experience, though, I have been fortunate to mostly be around very open-minded people who want kids to have every tool possible in order to succeed.  

 

I do not like it when people have only one pet theory and want to apply it to everybody.  Even when it is something that is a good thing, I don't think it is a good attitude to have.  

 

That is something that used to turn me off about sensory needs, a little, in the past.  I met a couple of people who thought it was the only solution for any problem, and were critical of me, and I did not like it.  I have had the same experience with special diets.  But I have realized that I need to see past that, and not be put off by thinking I have to pick just one thing and belong to "a camp."  It is not something I need to worry about.  

 

 

[Tiramisu]

I (and to some extent my dh) are "Highly Sensitive," so I get how hard it is. It's so ironic that after years of such a quiet, zen life we've been thrown into this. Like...I need my time in the morning to wake up and relax over a cup of coffee and newspaper, get my head into the day, but instead I'm greeted at 6AM by a kid who barrels into me, climbs on my lap, voice at 500 decibels jabbering away about who knows what. I adore this kid but miss my zen so much.

 

My intense one would put her face up to ours while we were still sleeping and cheer, "It's morning time!!!"

[PeterPan]

The loving the outdoors thing is probably because it's so good for her sensory.  She's getting sounds, deep pressure (tromping, hiking), smells, touching things, motion...  The high energy in the morning is me and ds.  Dd, on the other hand, rises VERY SLOWLY, and it's because of her ADHD-inattentive.  There are beta and theta waves, and one are the sleepy waves and one the awake.  When the sleepy waves are high during the day (ADHD-inattentive) they go even higher at night, making them sleep unusually deeply and leaving them really groggy when they try to rise.  My dd is infamous, needing 1 1/2+ hours to wake up and be functional.  Seriously.   :svengo: 

 

My ds and I wake up ON, totally on, like what you're describing.  That coming out to crash into you is sensory-seeking. I try to be up earlier than him and be ready to GO as soon as he wakes up. It would also be a good time to do that joint compression.   :)

 

Lecka, thanks for reminding us about Sensational Brain.  I had been trying to remember it and couldn't.  (not anything to do with the op, just for our use)  

 

For the op, yes we do our sensory stuff at scheduled times as part of our routine to avoid that dynamic Lecka was describing.  Your OT will help you sort that out.   I agree with Lecka that when a situation is complex, you end up needing multiple things, not just one solution.  It's not going to be *just* meds or just OT or just one thing.  Definitely don't take anything I've said that way as being like oh get OT and you won't need meds, blah blah.  It's just going to be a piece of the puzzle in getting to a better place.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Is it keeping me from signing her up for things I think she'd love or that would be good for her? Probably. Are those things necessary for her to have a good life? I don't know...I'd love to have her in scouts, art classes, etc., I'm sure she'd enjoy it so much, but it's true she'd probably be too much of a disruption. So yes, this does add another layer to the decision, and if anything it's may be will make me change my mind.

 

The first year we tried soccer DD was not yet on medication and it was really difficult. She plays on a Special Needs team so the coaches are super-understanding but I don't think she got a lot out of it. The second year she was on medication and it was like night and day the difference. A few mornings I accidentally forgot to give her the medication in the rush to get everybody out the door and that made it clear it wasn't just that she was a year older.

 

She has been able to participate in a mainstream Daisy Scouts troop, an art class, and community events like the Halloween Trick-or-Treating at the downtown shops and the Family Theatre Festival. No way would she have been able to do those unmedicated because she was just too hyper, impulsive, and distractible.

[nature girl]

Lecka, I love your idea of break cards. I don't think my daughter is there yet, understanding herself well enough to realize ahead of time that she needs a break, but I think I'll start working more with her on that than I have been, talking to her about how I think she might be feeling when I see her starting to melt down, whatever we happen to be doing at the time, so that she can hopefully start to recognize it in herself.

 

I feel like we need to work on mindfulness as a whole, although I'm not quite sure how to approach that, or how much she can understand at her age and maturity level. We talk about emotions a ton, because she's such an emotionally sensitive little thing and I want her to start finding ways to talk about, think about and deal with those emotions. (That's kind of a lifelong process for all of us though, isn't it.)

 

This morning during our walk she was standing under a willow tree looking up at the sky and she said, "This is the most magnificent morning of my life!" Which cracked me up, but really I want to find a way to harness that peace she finds outdoors and be able to get her back to that place when she feels most out of control. (Maybe while the weather's nice we'll do our math lessons outside under the trees...)

 

 

[Lecka]

She sounds so sweet and creative!

 

Break cards are an evidence-based practice.  I have had to learn a lot about them and ask questions.

 

The good news though, there are a lot of really cute "break card" templates on google and Pinterest and stuff.  

 

She is young for it, too, but not too young to model it if you want.

 

 

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[PeterPan]

She sounds so sweet and creative!

 

Break cards are an evidence-based practice.  I have had to learn a lot about them and ask questions.

 

The good news though, there are a lot of really cute "break card" templates on google and Pinterest and stuff.  

 

She is young for it, too, but not too young to model it if you want.

How did I miss this?  Wow.  Right now we've been so just sort of high energy, what do we want to do next...  But break cards would help with the self-advocating.  We're always trying to get things into words so they don't come out as explosions here.  And bolting isn't really an explosion.  It's just so odd that it leaves you wondering what to make of it, lol.  

 

Are there any more kinds of communication cards they use for these scenarios?  Anything more to share here?  :)

 

Anna, this isn't what you asked, but what finally got me was when I realized the things that fit, the things that were helping, were all coming from a certain direction and certain community.  Like I could say oh it's not this or that, but after a while it was just this pile-up of where the helpful ideas were coming from.  And there's a lot of kissing this or that (almost but not quite diagnosed, etc.).  I'm just saying that's what finally hit me.  I was just being practical and using good ideas ANYWHERE they came from, from any label.  After a while, the pattern just appeared.  Or I'm so oblivious that you have to paint patterns like a yellow brick road for me to see it, lol.  

 

Back to Lecka.  I haven't decided how I'm going to handle "school" stuff for this new year.  We got REALLY out of sync this summer, with the funeral and stuff.  This is our last week of swim.  And really, whether we're just going with our flow or have work bins and high structure (both ways appeal to me), either way he has those issues with bolting and not being able to say things.  We're working on things now like having him say he's going to the bathroom when he disappears.  It's really frustrating when you're working with someone and the POOF, kwim?  And you want to retract them (because you're frustrated), but then it turns out it was for a good reason!  So we just have a lot of that high energy, impulsive plus not being able to advocate for yourself and not getting it into words so it comes out physically stuff, sigh.  I've been trying to do more with ground rules, like a 5 minute warning during which you go to the bathroom and eat a snack before we start our next thing.  That seems to help.  

 

Do you have any strong feelings on that balance of seat work or independent work and the more interactive fun stuff?  I think I have a picture in my mind that it's good for him to do a *little* one way and a lot the other, that all one way or the other might not let him learn the skills of the other.

[nature girl]

Anna's Mom, I am only on here very briefly as time does not allow for more so not sure if this has been mentioned. If it has, please ignore.

 

Another way to approach school struggles is by varying the materials you use. You don't have to stick with one approach. If you want to stick with the materials you are using, just add variety for practice. We use apps for extra practice, encyclopedia type books for futher research, software, you name it. Over time I have done everything in my power to make school more interactive. I would grab them on the spot if I needed to and take them outside to show them what I was trying to explain. I would roll across the floor if I had to to show them in action. I use everything around me to grab their attention. I use resources connected to their passions to explain concepts when I have to. Example, when my oldest was 7 and working on animal classification, I had him use vehicles (a set of transportation counters in various colors) in order to understand the process and about a year ago when he was trying to design a draw bridge made out of K'Nex (his passion) I had him hold a book with his fingers and lift it up and down to explain weight distribution. Most of the resources I use are spur of the moment and add a hands-on interactive element that works so well I feel with special needs learners. I also make materials though, going as far as crocheting characters for my youngest to reenact his stories. My youngest now uses the Inspiration and Kidspiration software to make collages on topics he is interested in (currently tornadoes, hurricanes, and other storms, dinosaurs, African animals etc.). He taught himself to type and adds text with facts or what the characters are saying if he is doing a story from one of his storybooks. We still use traditional materials for school. We just add to the experience, which boosts comprehension.

 

What an amazing teacher you are! I need to be more creative with core subjects, I know that. I tend to find curricula that I love (and that I would have loved to do at her age), and because I know what a great foundation they could give I try to push dd into that mold thinking that if I just keep trying...

 

Now if I could just get some breathing room to try to extract from everything I own exactly what I want and need to teach, and devise something story-based to pull her through it...Why are there not more hours in the day?

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[Lecka]

I agree a lot with that.  

 

Little things like being able to set the microwave, or help me to make pancake batter, mean so much to my son.

 

He also likes to peel carrots.  

 

When I get baby carrots, he says "these carrots don't need to be peeled" in a disappointed way.  

 

He loves to be a helper and to be thanked for his help.  

 

A lot of our best opportunities are in the kitchen.  It is a smaller space and more naturally hands-on (for me to help) or close-together.  When there is a larger space or more need to move from one area to another, his focus and "following directions" make it harder.  And, I think there is not the same "look what I did" feeling as he gets from things in the kitchen, where the result is really obvious.  

 

He also is great at helping to rake leaves.  

 

 

 

[Mom22ns]

Re: the above, I know that's true. She's so smart and wise, learned so joyfully and easily in the early years and has such a great attention span for books and pretend play that all the other behaviors just seemed part of a complex personality. 

 

One thing you seem to be missing is that a symptom of ADHD is the ability to hyper focus. Many/most children with ADD/ADHD can hyper focus on preferred tasks. That may mean they read for hours when they are preschoolers, play computer or video games at levels way above what their age suggests, again for very long periods. For some it is legos, or imaginative play. This is a SYMPTOM. I see so many parents say "My child can't really be ADHD because look how they focus here!" and that is absolutely wrong. Hyperfocusing in one area while being unable to focus in most areas is by definition ADHD.

 

I won't address whether it would be better to put her in ps or homeschool her except to say that if you put her in public school I would definitely put her in K. In my state, the cutoff is July 31st, so she would automatically be in K. But additionally, very few children with June or July birthdays actually start K here. They are held back unless very gifted or unless parents can't afford child care. She will be more than a year younger than some kids in her grade and a 6 mod to a year younger than almost all of them. With her inattention, that is a recipe for disaster. She would be far better off being the oldest. Her lack of attention will look like immaturity in a school setting.

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[nature girl]

One thing you seem to be missing is that a symptom of ADHD is the ability to hyper focus. Many/most children with ADD/ADHD can hyper focus on preferred tasks. That may mean they read for hours when they are preschoolers, play computer or video games at levels way above what their age suggests, again for very long periods. For some it is legos, or imaginative play. This is a SYMPTOM. I see so many parents say "My child can't really be ADHD because look how they focus here!" and that is absolutely wrong. Hyperfocusing in one area while being unable to focus in most areas is by definition ADHD.

 

I won't address whether it would be better to put her in ps or homeschool her except to say that if you put her in public school I would definitely put her in K. In my state, the cutoff is July 31st, so she would automatically be in K. But additionally, very few children with June or July birthdays actually start K here. They are held back unless very gifted or unless parents can't afford child care. She will be more than a year younger than some kids in her grade and a 6 mod to a year younger than almost all of them. With her inattention, that is a recipe for disaster. She would be far better off being the oldest. Her lack of attention will look like immaturity in a school setting.

 

Yes, I'm aware of hyper focusing...I wasn't before I started looking into the possibility of ADHD though, and that was my point in that comment. My thinking last year was, If she can concentrate well enough to learn how to read without fidgeting, how can she possibly have an attention issue? (I'm still not convinced she's hyperfocusing while reading though, because it's reasonably easy to distract her. And especially when she was first reading, the books weren't exactly fascinating, and the reading was a struggle for her, but she was still able to focus better than any 3yo I know.) Watching TV she definitely hyper focuses though, which is why I've always limited it drastically. Having your kid staring intently at a screen, not even seeming to notice you're there next to her calling her name, is disconcerting! None of the other activities she can attend for long periods (drawing, reading, pretend play, eating, building) come even close to that.

 

I know she could never handle ps 1st, probably not even ps K. I'm calling this year 1st just because she's excited about progressing a grade, but I'll probably be doing another very relaxed year with her, I'm fine with that. I just don't want her to lose skills, so I want to keep up with the reading and math, and do as much handwriting as she's willing to put up with. If it's only an hour a day still, that's fine with me, especially since this year we'll have other therapies that'll use up her time and energy.

[nature girl]

Re: practical life skills, I know I have to get better at that. She does love helping me in the kitchen, we've always done a lot of cooking and baking, but I'll have to start challenging her more there, find a kid-safe knife and peeler, let her use the food processor, etc. Another big goal this year is to buy some shoes with laces and work on that, which with her easy frustration level will be fun, fun, fun...

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs and good luck, OP.  I have been following this thread but really had nothing terribly helpful to add.  I just wanted to send my support.

[PeterPan]

You might consider not calling her a grade this year.  Just tell her some K5ers are 5 and some are 6, and some 1st graders are 6 and some are 7, and that you'll sort out the grade thing later.  Just saying sometimes it's really hard to undo this later when you want to.  Better to build in some flex there.  

[PeterPan]

Anna, my dd with ADHD-inattentive can go into her mode and try to focus on something she's passionate about, but it wears her out.  Even when she *wants* to hyperfocus on something, she'll struggle.  So she'll have misplaced attention, struggle with transitions and rigidity, harness her ADHD to get into a zone, but it's not really quite to hyperfocus.  My ds, on the other hand, has an ADHD-combined label along with ASD, and he *can* hyperfocus.  He can literally just sit down, if he's engaged, and focus for 45+ minutes.  Blows people's minds.  But he's HIGHLY impulsive on the tests, variable inattentiveness (depending on the software testing him, we've gotten different results, probably reflecting how intriguing he found the test), and if his impulsivity kicks in AT ALL he will BOLT.  There can be a lot of motion when working with him, and it can be whole body movement or very precise repeated patterns (flicking, tapping, stroking) or nothing at all.  So with him, some days you think NO WAY, and some days it's OH MY.  And the psychs are saying it's because he's complex.  He's not JUST ADHD or just one thing or another.  He's also 2E, and I think that amps up that passion to hyperfocus.

 

In other words, don't go with simple explanations for complex situations.

[nature girl]

That's interesting...I don't think dd quite matches either of those, but I do see elements of both in the way she responds to teaching.

 

A dumb, newbie question that I've been trying to research but haven't found any good answers to: Do kids with hyperactive-impulsive-type have as much of an issue with attention as inattentive type? (I assume so, because otherwise the "attention deficit" label doesn't quite make sense, but then why would there be differentiation between hyperactive-impulsive and combined if both are an issue? I swear, I've read 20 definitions for each type and I still don't quite get it.

[PeterPan]

There *should* be an inattentive element to the ADHD-combined, yes.  It's just variable with my ds, where sometimes you see it and sometimes you don't.  (You do see my eyes going up with the stress we have over this, right?  Like he's REALLY challenging to take places, this should not have even been a controversy.)  Two private psychs called it ADHD.  The ps psych said he clearly has EF issues but that he didn't show inattention on the computer tapping testing, only impulsivity, and that he'd only call it ADHD if someone else at the table did.  I mean it's seriously that preposterous.  But the point is that it can happen that the dc really engages with the methodology of the test (my ds is very keen on computers) and just engages.  There are psychs who won't use computer tests at all for that reason, because there are so many factors that can influence results.  

 

My ds is complex.  Professionals look at him and go no way, then after a while they change their minds.  As a parent, some days you go no way, and other days the thing is horribly obvious.  And it's because he's complex.  

 

Girls are harder to diagnose than boys on things and often get underdiagnosed or diagnosed later.  They come in with personalities and girl traits that mask some of the behaviors, and the same diagnosis can look different in girls than boys.  With my dd, she had so many strengths and was so able to cope (and excel!) that I waited a long time on evals for her.  I let someone blow me off when she was in 1st, and it's a shame because if we had done evals then we would have caught stuff early, before we had so many frustrations.  It's why I always encourage people to eval when their gut is seeing flags, because you're really seeing stuff and because intervening and eval'ing NOW can make a big difference in the outcome of your homeschooling.  Just the fact that someone comes onto a public board with thousands, or even millions of people, reading these posts and laments their frustrations is the BIG CLUE that something is going on.  You don't need to talk yourself out of it.  It's real, it's there, and it deserves evals.  I think girls particularly, because their gifts mask their disabilities, have to be advocated for.  

[nature girl]

I think Anna will be the same way on any computerized tests...Really anything that's a game that seems fun to her, not like work, she should be able to attend quite well. (But especially computerized...Those darned Toca and Panda apps MESMERIZED her, even though she was doing the same thing overandoverandoverandover again.)

 

There *should* be an inattentive element to the ADHD-combined, yes.  

 

I understand combined is both, but is the hyperactive-impulsive also inattentive? Or less so? Anna's main issues seem to be with frustration, agreeing to do something she finds boring, over-talkativeness/interrupting, complying with rules and social skills. Which are all classic for the h-i type. I always saw the issues she had with the couple of subjects she didn't want to sit through as being more to do with her hyperactiveness and frustration than with attention/distraction. (Of course that could play in as well, I just wasn't looking at it that way.)

[Crimson Wife]

That's interesting...I don't think dd quite matches either of those, but I do see elements of both in the way she responds to teaching.

 

A dumb, newbie question that I've been trying to research but haven't found any good answers to: Do kids with hyperactive-impulsive-type have as much of an issue with attention as inattentive type? (I assume so, because otherwise the "attention deficit" label doesn't quite make sense, but then why would there be differentiation between hyperactive-impulsive and combined if both are an issue? I swear, I've read 20 definitions for each type and I still don't quite get it.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen anything other than ADHD-combined and ADD-inattentive. The distractibility is always there but some have hyperactivity and impulsiveness (the bouncing off the walls kid) and some don't (the quiet daydreamer).

[Crimson Wife]

 

I understand combined is both, but is the hyperactive-impulsive also inattentive? Or less so? Anna's main issues seem to be with frustration, agreeing to do something she finds boring, over-talkativeness/interrupting, complying with rules and social skills. Which are all classic for the h-i type. I always saw the issues she had with the couple of subjects she didn't want to sit through as being more to do with her hyperactiveness and frustration than with attention/distraction. (Of course that could play in as well, I just wasn't looking at it that way.)

 

It is much harder to focus on boring tasks than engaging ones, and even if somebody CAN force himself/herself to focus enough to get through it, the dread of needing to focus when it's difficult can lead to procrastination & resistance.

 

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[nature girl]

I was sure I'd seen three separate types all listed at once, but maybe I'd seen "combined" labeled two different ways? I think all the crammed reading I've been doing is confusing me, and things are leaking from my head.

 

It is much harder to focus on boring tasks than engaging ones, and even if somebody CAN force himself/herself to focus enough to get through it, the dread of needing to focus when it's difficult can lead to procrastination & resistance.
 

 

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanation. It fits in well with what OhE was saying a few days ago about this being their way to self-regulate. Ahhhh...I'm probably going to be looking at and treating these bouts a lot differently now, this is helping me get inside her head so much better.

 

 

[nature girl]

Cricket on the Hearth, your sons both sound like such incredible kids.

 

I do wish Anna was as motivated a learner as your boys, given the opportunity she'd just sit with her Magnatiles and little Toob animals/dinosaurs all day, which is only "educational" to a point. I love the idea of unschooling so much, it really does resonate with me, but I don't know that it works for every kid, there needs to be at least some motivation. You would faint if you saw how much money I've spent on amazing educational toys that never get played with. With Anna, anything semi-educational I try to strew just gets glanced through and then abandoned within minutes, no matter how fun it seems to me.
 

Working at whatever pace she's willing to follow is probably the best thing I can do at this age, upping her self-confidence will really help her in the long run. I've learned long ago that trying to stretch her beyond her limits--even touching the tip of those limits--makes her edgy, so what you've said makes a lot of sense. As far as what to call next year, I know grade levels mean nothing in reality, I just don't want dd to feel like she's failed somehow if we call this year K again. Maybe at some point in the next few months I'll start calling this 1st(6) and make her believe 1st(7) is also a "thing," I guess we'll play it by ear and see how she does. I do want her to learn how to stretch herself eventually, perseverance is such a valuable skill, but not to the point of making her equate school with stress. It's such a hard balance, and I'm probably going to struggle with it for awhile.

 

[Guest]

I totally agree that each child is different, as does the way we make choices for them. My husband and I both come from educational systems that were highly structured and demanding. My husband's place of birth followed the British system in the elementary years before his family moved to Canada and mine returned to Europe a year before I started middle school. You would have to beat us over the head to change our mindset to unschooling. I respect other parents' decisions for their own kids but it just doesn't represent my family's mentality. What my kids do that I described is on their own time. Our school is structured. We use curriculum and the extras I add are to create background knowledge and boost comprehension. These extras during our lessons are separate to their play that I described before.

 

My goal in sharing what they do for play was to show that if we give them the tools when we see a passion in one area they will use them to learn more. From a very young age I watched them for things they liked. I knew about fixations, or passions as I prefer to call them, since that is how I have always been. Still am ;) My husband is the same. When I read about passions in books from Temple Grandin it just propelled my efforts even more.

 

I will also not hesitate to take away from them anything that inhibits their ability to grow. Example, a few months ago I bought my son the Minecract app and software. At first all was good. He was using it to try to recreate worlds from his storybooks etc. Then I figured out my controls as a parent on it were very limited. He started wanting to go on it more and more and I started seeing my child that I worked so hard to bring out of the world he was in so much a few years ago, entering these worlds again and now in block format. We made a joint decision as parents to take it away and have not given it back since. He cried and was miserable for several days, and then returned back to the boy I have worked so hard to keep engaged.

 

So it's all a balance and values we set for our own family. This was why I said, read the experiences and then find what works with your own family in mind and your own mind set. You will be bombarded by hundreds of different ways others do things. Don't try to recreate. Use your judgement, family values, and your child's strenghts, weaknesses, and interests to find what works best for her and your family :)

[PeterPan]

Cricket on the Hearth, your sons both sound like such incredible kids.

 

I do wish Anna was as motivated a learner as your boys, given the opportunity she'd just sit with her Magnatiles and little Toob animals/dinosaurs all day, which is only "educational" to a point. I love the idea of unschooling so much, it really does resonate with me, but I don't know that it works for every kid, there needs to be at least some motivation. You would faint if you saw how much money I've spent on amazing educational toys that never get played with. With Anna, anything semi-educational I try to strew just gets glanced through and then abandoned within minutes, no matter how fun it seems to me.

 

Working at whatever pace she's willing to follow is probably the best thing I can do at this age, upping her self-confidence will really help her in the long run. I've learned long ago that trying to stretch her beyond her limits--even touching the tip of those limits--makes her edgy, so what you've said makes a lot of sense. As far as what to call next year, I know grade levels mean nothing in reality, I just don't want dd to feel like she's failed somehow if we call this year K again. Maybe at some point in the next few months I'll start calling this 1st(6) and make her believe 1st(7) is also a "thing," I guess we'll play it by ear and see how she does. I do want her to learn how to stretch herself eventually, perseverance is such a valuable skill, but not to the point of making her equate school with stress. It's such a hard balance, and I'm probably going to struggle with it for awhile.

I hope you know I mean this well, but she's showing you developmentally she's not ready to be called a 1st grader.  Let her BE little.  She's a K5er by age in most states in our country.  So she's bright, fine!  You can teach her at her level and still give her time to develop on ALL levels.  By setting up this push-push dynamic now, where you're not satisfied with her play and her interests because they're not grade-typical, you're just setting yourself up for frustrations.  Either let go of that and say really immature 1st grader that I grade advanced for some compelling reason (to gain access to a program for the gifted, whatever) or retain her and call her a super precocious K5er.  Because as a dc going into K5 that behavior would be NORMAL.  For where she would be places socially in most of the states in our country, that type of play and just the desire to do that all day, would be NORMAL.  It's only odd when you say be a 1st grader.  And even for some kids 1st grade is an extension of K5.  But 1st grade does pick up fast.  

 

If you hang on the boards long enough, you'll see a lot of war stories and sad stories of people who got into this very pickle early.  

 

Well whatever, do as you wish.  Sounds like you're already on overload.  Remember, you don't have to be the psych.  You just have to make the leap to get the psych.  They'll actually do the work.  :)

 

 

[HSsquared]

I've read about half the replies and decided to hop in here on this discussion. The hysterical comment drew me in as my son has had a growing "sense of humor" lately that has been frustrating our learning tasks. The comments you've made about her other behaviors though also remind me ***to some degree*** of my son. He is 6 1/2yo and after a long tedious journey was diagnosed being on the spectrum2. I really think that due to the enormous sensory integration issues he has that that's what's causing so many challenges and him being diagnosed on AS. (SPD used to be a different diagnosi but is now under the umbrella of ASD.) A former OT said he needed lots of movement and physical activities to help him focus. Another OT and a PT said he has low tone. Among many other learning challenges, social anxieties, etc, He hates handwriting too and literature activities or any type of traditional, typical curriculum. I have recently begun doing the SonRise Program which is an at home therapy parents can implement. For those dealing w ASD or PDD, I highly recommend them. They have a ton of YouTube videos too if you find their site helpful.

I add in other therapies at home too 3-5 times weekly:

PT- via focused PhysEd (IE: this week we are working on visual tracking by playing t-ball and pretend soccer)

OT/Sensory: things to strengthen core and fine motor and sensory integration

Speech: build vocabulary through the literature of the week; build articulation through learning new words correctly; build language through the stories as we talk about them

Feeding: get recipe inspiration from lit

Academia: do essentials only.

Do handwriting on white boards (it's good for OT and PT development) or on a sliding glass door, vertical surfaces. Use paint, watercolors, markers, whatever she likes to use.

Math: if Lego thing doesn't work I like my fathers world prek math to build math skills w no handwriting required

Sounds like she may like the STEM workbooks on RainbowResource's site too!

Bottom line for me is: no, I don't recommend meds, get the evals and study what she needs most. If you want to know more, search Pinterest for PT OT Sensory (SherraK)

[nature girl]

I hope you know I mean this well, but she's showing you developmentally she's not ready to be called a 1st grader.  Let her BE little.  She's a K5er by age in most states in our country.  So she's bright, fine!  You can teach her at her level and still give her time to develop on ALL levels.  By setting up this push-push dynamic now, where you're not satisfied with her play and her interests because they're not grade-typical, you're just setting yourself up for frustrations.  Either let go of that and say really immature 1st grader that I grade advanced for some compelling reason (to gain access to a program for the gifted, whatever) or retain her and call her a super precocious K5er.  Because as a dc going into K5 that behavior would be NORMAL.  For where she would be places socially in most of the states in our country, that type of play and just the desire to do that all day, would be NORMAL.  It's only odd when you say be a 1st grader.  And even for some kids 1st grade is an extension of K5.  But 1st grade does pick up fast.  

 

If you hang on the boards long enough, you'll see a lot of war stories and sad stories of people who got into this very pickle early.  

 

Well whatever, do as you wish.  Sounds like you're already on overload.  Remember, you don't have to be the psych.  You just have to make the leap to get the psych.  They'll actually do the work.   :)

 

I think I probably worded my comment badly. My point was that I feel like I need to call her 1st next year, even if in name only, because she thinks she's going into 1st. Telling her, Oh no, we've decided we'll do another year of K instead, would be devastating to her, like telling her on her birthday, Surprise! I know you've been looking forward to turning 6 but ha-ha, you'll be 5 for another year...

 

Anyway, what I've been trying to say is that I'm fine with another relaxed year, since that seems to be what she needs at this point. And of course I'm fine with her play, it's what she does for most of the day, it's imaginative and fun to watch. But with that comment I was saying that I was sure if I unschooled, that would be 100% of her day, rather than 95% as it is now, and she'd never progress at all in other areas. I do want to do at least some real schooling, just to make sure she doesn't slide backward, but I realize we're not in any rush and I can adjust to her stamina level. If we have to do math in 2-minute increments, then so be it, but I don't want to give it up altogether.

 

(Ironically, this afternoon after I'd written the comment about unschooling not working for us, she nestled up in the corner with a library book we'd just gotten, then when she was done reading got out some paper and wrote and illustrated a 3 page sequel to the story, which she titled, "Dragons and Knight Get Sik Agin and Looz ther Matresses." Go figure.)

[nature girl]

That's interesting, HSsquared...I'm pretty sure Anna has sensory issues, she definitely seems to be sensory seeking (hugs and back rubs calm her down, and she does like crashing into things. We have our first of 3 half-hour OT assessments on the 24th, so we'll see what they say and what they think they can do to help. I'll look up SonRise, the Pinterest board and the STEM workbooks, thanks! I do wonder how far we could get with therapies/diet changes alone...I'll get the opinions of the OT and therapists before making any kind of decision.

[HSsquared]

Thanks for your reply Anna's Mom.

 

Another good read was Raising a Sensory Smart Child.

 

I am on Pinterest at: https://www.pinterest.com/sherrakinder/

[Storygirl]

A couple of things:

 

DS11 has ADHD combined type, and he definitely has hyperactivity, impulsivity, and inattention. All three. But at any time, you might see one of those elements more than the others in his behavior.

 

Also, DD13 started K at age 4 (as a homeschooler). She was ready. She was an early reader. But then she started to lag in some areas, and I became uncertain about pushing her ahead of her peers by a year. Somewhere around first grade I realized that she would do better if I didn't call her a second grader the following year. So what we told her is that we were doing a long first grade year and a long second grade year -- we did a year and a half of what we called first grade and a year and a half of what we called second grade, and just slowed her down. I didn't slow down our use of curriculum. This worked well for us, because we homeschooled year round and didn't make a big deal in May about moving up to the next grade.

 

Just today I was talking to her about this and asked her if she remembered that at all. Nope. It didn't register with her as a big deal at all and was a painless way to adjust her grade level. You might think about doing this with your daughter. Call her a first grader for an extra semester and promote her to "second grade" in January of that year. Then call her a second grader for a year and a half.

[PeterPan]

Story, that's a brilliant idea!!   :hurray: 

 

AM, that's exciting that you're getting in soon for the OT evals!  It sounds like it will turn up some helpful stuff.

 

[Guest]

(Ironically, this afternoon after I'd written the comment about unschooling not working for us, she nestled up in the corner with a library book we'd just gotten, then when she was done reading got out some paper and wrote and illustrated a 3 page sequel to the story, which she titled, "Dragons and Knight Get Sik Agin and Looz ther Matresses." Go figure.)

Now that's what I'm talking about :) That's the stuff you give value to! Maybe give her craft paper and help her staple one page front and back like a cover. She can write the title, her name, and add an illustration on her front cover. There you have it, her first book. She can also decorate the cover with stickers and you could teach her about the author of a book, illustrator, title etc. If she doesn't know these things already. Then decorate it somewhere and make sure daddy sees it when he gets home so she can get more praise and encouragement.

[Seeking Squirrels]

I haven't been able to read the whole thread (it's getting late and we had a long day here!), but I wanted to jump in a little. Your DD sounds so much like my 7yo. Seriously, halfway through your OP I double checked the poster to make sure it wasn't an old thread of mine. ;-) We waited well past when I suspected issues to get DD evaluated, but finally did last fall. She was dx'd ADHD and SPD. They spent a couple months wavering a bit on ASD but it was ruled out. Several months of OT, DD seeing a behavioral pyschologist, and myself taking classes from the behavioral psychologist and devouring everything I could on SPD has made a BIG difference in our lives. Last summer I was in tears not knowing how I was going to get through the school year and wondering if I needed to put her in PS if for no other reason than my sanity because I knew she would struggle there. This year I am excited to see what we can do and I am a lot more confident in how to get through her ups and downs and address her needs. We have by no means figured out all the answers, we still have so far to go. But we are in a better place and continuing to learn. So I guess all I can offer is to let you know there is hope and it can get better!

[HSsquared]

Cricket on the Hearth---what a great idea!!! So want to try that like now!!!

 

CPSTAnne----good to be reminded to keep working at it. Thank you!!!

[Ottakee]

Another thing you could call it is "pre-1st" and then next year 1st grade. Several of the schools around here have this program for kids who did K but aren't ready for 1st grade yet.

[Mom22ns]

Yes, I'm aware of hyper focusing...I wasn't before I started looking into the possibility of ADHD though, and that was my point in that comment. My thinking last year was, If she can concentrate well enough to learn how to read without fidgeting, how can she possibly have an attention issue? (I'm still not convinced she's hyperfocusing while reading though, because it's reasonably easy to distract her. And especially when she was first reading, the books weren't exactly fascinating, and the reading was a struggle for her, but she was still able to focus better than any 3yo I know.) Watching TV she definitely hyper focuses though, which is why I've always limited it drastically. Having your kid staring intently at a screen, not even seeming to notice you're there next to her calling her name, is disconcerting! None of the other activities she can attend for long periods (drawing, reading, pretend play, eating, building) come even close to that.

 

Just as a follow up on this, my son learned to read at 2. He was never hyper, only lacked focus, but not when it came to books. He loved them. He could listen to them endlessly, and taught himself to read. You are right, the focus on books was different than the focus on a screen. I think screens do some nasty things to the brains of an ADD/ASD child. However, for mine reading was a preferred activity, and any preferred activity will bring hyper focus. 

 

I know how tough this is and I hope you are able to make decisions you are comfortable with and have a good year. 

[Crimson Wife]

Another thing you could call it is "pre-1st" and then next year 1st grade. Several of the schools around here have this program for kids who did K but aren't ready for 1st grade yet.

 

This used to be quite common in my area since CA had a December cutoff for K. Now they've moved it back to August or September and the younger kids do TK. That has cut back on the number of kids needed to do a transition year between K and 1st.

 

My two older kids have fall birthdays and needed a transition year along the way. DS did it between K & 1. DD did it between 6th and 7th. Spring semester kind of went off the rails when I was dealing with all of youngest DD's issues. I decided this summer that it would be better from a long-term perspective for oldest DD to get some work experience as a junior lifeguard (which she's been doing 15-20 hours/week) rather than try to play catch-up to keep her young for grade. Jr. lifeguarding has been very good for her in terms of developing people skills, a work ethic, and general EF skills (oh, yeah, I've got to remember to bring my whistle and sunscreen, etc.)

 

Technically I declared her "ungraded secondary" on the Private School Affidavit last year and will do so again on the PSA this year. But in terms of applying for high schools, she'll do that next year rather than this one.

[Targhee]

Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen anything other than ADHD-combined and ADD-inattentive. The distractibility is always there but some have hyperactivity and impulsiveness (the bouncing off the walls kid) and some don't (the quiet daydreamer).

My third is predominantly hyperactive (which is odd for a girl). She is much, much less inattentive than the other two. But hyperactivity an dimpulsivity are pronounced. I think this is partly do to personality. If she did not have adhd I think she would be one of those laser-focused, overly intense people who make others uncomfortable wiith unbroken eye contact and never letting a topic die. Thank goodness fo ADHD? My point is that she's dx as combined type, but her inattentention is much less pronounced.

[Tiramisu]

My third is predominantly hyperactive (which is odd for a girl). She is much, much less inattentive than the other two. But hyperactivity an dimpulsivity are pronounced. I think this is partly do to personality. If she did not have adhd I think she would be one of those laser-focused, overly intense people who make others uncomfortable wiith unbroken eye contact and never letting a topic die. Thank goodness fo ADHD? My point is that she's dx as combined type, but her inattentention is much less pronounced.

 

This is not the first time something you said resonated so much with me. I have hyper girls, too. No one understands. They seem to think raising girls is easy because they are so quieter and can sit still. Umm, no. Not here.

 

I have a mix of inattention and hyperactivity, but my third is, like your third, impulsive, and she's been much harder to raise. I agree that the inattention can be much less pronounced, but that's because it's relatively less obvious. The thing is, the effects of the inattention become more noticeable with age because there is just a lot more for people to be attentive to as they age. On the surface she is not as hyperactiveactive as when she was younger but I think her mind is like a hamster on a wheel. And now, most of the impulsivity is verbal. I think the success we've been seeing this week with the med trial is largely a positive impact on the impulsivity. Within an hour of taking the meds, the whole house settles down. It's quieter and the tension dissipates. Youngest dd is happier and laughing more and she says it's because her sister is being nicer to her. I think it's because dd is stopping and thinking about what she says and not grouching about whatever comes into her head. I also think her input must be better integrated so she's less on edge herself and, therefore, less likely to overreact. This med seems to be kicking the butt of her lingering symptoms of depression, and I think it's because it's hitting the sensory piece.

[Storygirl]

Tiramisu, DS11 is also a much nicer person when he is on his meds (focalin). More thoughtful and considerate. Less likely to argue or say antagonistic things to his siblings. It makes a difference for our whole family, too.

 

He recently switched from the short acting to the extended release, due to enrolling in school, and we've had to adjust the dosage a bit. When I was explaining to the doctor that I thought the dosage needed to be increased, because it was not as effective as the short-term version, I specifically talked about him being more impulsive verbally compared to how he was on the previous type of focalin. What I really wanted to say is, "He is not as nice on the extended release at this dosage. We need to increase it so that he is able to be more pleasant," but that just seemed so non-medical that I couldn't bring myself to say it. I also felt like I should not focus on the effect that the meds have on ME and the rest of the family (it is stressful when he can't be nice). It just seemed wrong to say something like, "The whole family would benefit from DS having a higher dosage." So I felt kind of awkward trying to discuss it.  I'm glad to see that someone else has noticed the same "nice" effect with the meds.

[Tiramisu]

Storygirl, This so so interesting because the ONLY effect dd sees on focalin is that it makes her nicer. We are seeing more changes, and once school starts we might get a better sense of how it's helping the attention aspect. 

 

I was also thinking about switching to the extended release with school starting. I wonder if it's possible to give her the short acting in the morning and then another short acting after school without it affecting her sleep.

 

In the last few days, I've been thinking about the family effect a lot. Nothing in this life is perfect, but if we had got evals when dd was younger and found the right medication, our family life would have been so different. Everyone of us has been affected by the stress level in our house. She would have been spared so much alienation because of behavior that was really out of her control.

 

Once I overheard a conversation between two hs moms. One mom had a child with behavioral issues due to a documented brain issue of some kind. She used the word "hate" when she spoke about her dd. I know she must love her, but there was so much frustration and anger toward a young child. If she as a mom felt that way, then how must everyone else feel? It was so sad. The other mom said, "Well, you're not going to medicate her, are you?" with a strong medication-is-bad tone. And the first mom answered, "Oh, no!" That conversation has always haunted me.

 

I also know a family with serious, genetically-based mood disorder...and two of them also had undiagnosed celiac. All I knew about the family at first was that they always were happy and enjoyed being together. When I would see the son, I was always impressed with the way he would wave and smile. He was so caring toward his younger sister. But, before I knew them, the mom said the family had a terrible time. They invested a lot of time and money in therapy, and they finally got the medical stuff worked out. And, according to the mom, most of all, they found the right medication.

 

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, but family relationships are something that are very important to me. I've even thought about whether, with my own sensory issues, if it would help my family if I took something.

[Storygirl]

Honestly, I've come to believe that improving relationships is just an important a reason to medicate as improving academics. I just heard on NPR today a plug for an upcoming local show that is going to address the statistic that people with ADHD are twice as likely to get a divorce as those without ADHD. Being able to get along with others is vital. DS11 was not medicated until he was almost 10, and those pre-med years took a great toll on me and affected our whole family.

 

I didn't think we needed to medicate while homeschooling and was fairly anti-meds in general, but how I wish we had started sooner. Honestly, it would have helped me be a better mom to both my son and my other children to not be so stressed over managing his behavior all the time. I would have been happier personally. I spent so much of my energy managing behavior (not just that of DS11, but of his siblings as well), that I totally exhausted myself. It's why I can't homeschool the three younger children this year. Extreme burnout. And it's not mainly from dealing with academic struggles, though that has been grueling with multiple kids with multiple LDs, but from dealing with behavior. They are not terrible kids. I don't want to leave that impression. But they require a lot more guidance than the average crew.

 

Anyway, about the focalin. It may go differently for your daughter, of course, but we've found that the effect of the extended release version is not as steady. He has more ups and downs with his behavior during the day, and I think it is related to the way that the medicine releases itself into action throughout the day. I liked the short acting better, but it's not a good choice while he's in class all day. He does take a bonus short-acting pill around 3:30 or 4:00 on days when he has gymnastics in the evenings, because he needs to be able to focus while at practice (he is on a competition team), and it is out of his system by bedtime.

 

We have a constant reminder of life pre-meds, because he is up for almost two hours in the morning before we can give his pill to him (we wait until we leave the house for school), and it has worn off by the time he is out of school at 3:30. Life is more frenetic during that time. I think taking two short-acting pills lasted longer through the day, because each lasted about 4.5 hours. Two pills gave us about 9 hours of medication. The extended release only works for about 7.5 hours with him, just enough time for the school day.